Talk:Monggeumpo Taryeong/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 09:56, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 09:56, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Images are appropriately tagged; File:Sitting Yi I.jpg has no original publication date, but I'll take it on faith that it is as old as it appears to be. I'm unable to properly evaluate the Korean sources but can't see anything obviously unreliable. -- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:14, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "became more widely popular in the late Joseon Dynasty due to social change": what does "due to social change" mean?
 * Mike Christie Unfortunately, the sources don't elaborate further, my only guess would be events that happened in the late Joseon Dynasty, such as Western appearance, and the emergence of Japan.
 * We shouldn't include material we don't understand. I would just cut the phrase. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 11:56, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Could we keep it? Even though it doesn't explain completely its better than not having it at all.
 * Can you quote what the source says? I think it might be OK if we quote it directly but I'd like to see what the source's wording is. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 18:39, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * What I put is almost exactly what the source says: 조선 후기 사회적 변동으로 도시의 유흥문화 속에서 다양한 통속민요가 유행하기 시작하는데 몽금포타령도 이때 만들어져 불린 노래이다. / "Due to the social change in the late Joseon Dynasty, various popular folk songs started to become popular in the city's entertainment culture, and Monggeum Potaryeong was also created and sung at this time."
 * Well, close paraphrasing is a difficult thing to assess in non-English sources, but I think this is too close to the original then. However, I think what you have in the article doesn't really reflect the source.  The source says social changes at that time made some folk songs more popular, and it also says that that was the time when this song was written; it doesn't assert that the social change led to this song being written.  Or is that a nuance in the original that doesn't show up in this translation?  I think it might be better if you resequence some of the material in the history section.  The statement about the late Joseon dynasty and the growing popularity of folk songs is general scene-setting, so I would start with that (and would also be more specific about what "late Joseon dynasty" means -- since the dynasty spanned about five hundred years, it could mean 1775-1897, or it could mean the last ten years of the dynasty.  Either way I'd put in some year dates -- "Joseon dynasty" will be unfamiliar to many readers as well as being imprecise. Then perhaps the note about Anju Aewongok, as a predecessor, and then give the approximate date at which this song was written, and finally when it was written down (see next point). Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 20:22, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "The song's verses were first confirmed in": what does "confirmed" refer to? First time the lyrics were written down?
 * It means it was the first time they were able to validate the lyrics of the song.
 * Still not clear what you mean -- what does it mean to validate lyrics? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:56, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The song's existence was known, but the lyrics were first found and confirmed in the book.
 * I'm still not sure what this really means. If a song is known, the lyrics are known.  If the song is representative, as the lead says, then it can't be the case that this is a rare song that musicologists unearthed that nobody knew the lyrics too.  What exactly does the source say? Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 18:39, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The source doesn't elaborate any further, I just used a synonym for confirmed. I'm assuming it means the existence of the song was known as people sang it, (oral tradition) but the first written record of lyrics were first found in the book. I get why this is confusing, sorry.
 * Is it possible the source just means this is the first time the words were written down? That would be quite plausible, but it sounds like you're not reading it that way?  I see from your userpage that you're not a native Korean speaker, so any chance this is the intended meaning? Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 20:22, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "The verses are performed in four jangdans and the refrain in two jangdans": what does "jangdan" mean? Is there an article we could link to?
 * I've linked an article to other korean words such as jangdan, if I linked it here it would be a repeat. Wikipedia unfortunately doesn't have a page on Jangdans, they are essentially musical beats/tempo.
 * Could we put a word or two of explanation in parentheses? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:56, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Done
 * "The lyrics and refrain of the song may slightly differ in each version": suggest "There are multiple versions of the song, with slightly differing lyrics and refrain".
 * You would be correct.
 * Looks like you didn't make this change? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:56, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Done
 * "Monggeumpo Harbor is situated on a beach that extends 4,000 km (2,500 mi)": This seems unlikely as the entire Korean peninsula is only about 600 km long.
 * I think I've read this wrong, I'll delete it because I don't think it fits here.
 * Again looks like this is not changed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:56, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Done
 * "The Jangsanggot (장산곶; 長山串) mountain range was named": This paragraph (the last sentence of which is uncited) seems off-topic -- the song is about the harbor, not the mountain range or the navy, and the translation of bongjuk is given in the "Lyrics" section.
 * Maybe so, I'll remove the information about the mountain range and move the bongjuk translation.
 * And again not changed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:56, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Done
 * What I meant was that this: "The Jangsanggot (장산곶; 長山串) mountain range was named from its description as extending deep into the Yellow Sea (Seohae, 서해).[5] In the Joseon Dynasty, Arangpoyeong (아랑포영) and Jonipojin (조니포진) were installed at the harbor, and it served as an important, strategic location for national defense when Joseon Navy forces were deployed.[5] Gumipo [ko] is located to the southeast of Monggeumpo; American missionary Etherwood first discovered and developed the sacred scenery of that place." all seems irrelevant. The song is about the harbour, but that doesn't mean we need the history of the harbour in the article.  And why are we explaining what bongjugeul badattda and bongjuk mean?  Neither word appears to be in the translated section. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 18:39, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Bongjugeul Badattda = 봉죽을 받았다, It's in the Korean portion of the lyrics. I disagree, the description/history of the harbor sets up the song, and the harbor wouldn't deserve its own wikipedia page, so I think it being here fits, although if you insist I will get rid of it.
 * Well, I can see keeping some form of descriptive detail about the harbor is a good idea, but we do already have the hills, roses and sand paragraph. For this information, some specific questions then:
 * "The Jangsanggot (장산곶; 長山串) mountain range was named from its description as extending deep into the Yellow Sea (Seohae, 서해)." Perhaps this is evident in Korean, but it's clear in English how Jangsanggot is derived from "extending deep into the Yellow Sea".  And would we need the Korean script?  And I would think a link is possible; anything big enough to be called a mountain range should have an article
 * "In the Joseon Dynasty, Arangpoyeong (아랑포영) and Jonipojin (조니포진) were installed at the harbor, and it served as an important, strategic location for national defense when Joseon Navy forces were deployed." Mostly meaningless to an English reader - are Arangpoyeong and Jonipojin military installations of some kind?. Same question about the vagueness of date of "In the Joseon dynasty", and whether we need Korean script here.  The fact that the harbor is a strategic defensive location seems off topic to me -- there are lots of things we could say about the harbor, from its geological history to the amount of tourism it gets; we should restrict ourselves to what's related to the song.
 * "Gumipo [ko] is located to the southeast of Monggeumpo": why is Gumipo relevant? We could presumably pick out other nearby places to mention; why this one?  Nearest large town?
 * "American missionary Etherwood first discovered and developed the sacred scenery of that place": If we're going to mention Etherwood we should give his first name if it's available. But why "sacred"?  And I'm surprised to see "discovered" -- surely the place was not unknown to the locals?  I can see the use of a word like discovered in situations where European explorers were discovering places in countries now governed by the descendants of those Europeans, but it seems an odd phrase to use about Korea. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 20:22, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * For the translated words, if you want to keep them I think those words should be visible in the lyrics to an English reader. What is it about translating those words in particular that you feel is worth including in the article?  Why did you pick these words to discuss rather than some others?
 * -- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:22, 16 September 2022 (UTC)


 * Mike Christie Thanks for taking up this article! I know people were avoiding it because it has entirely Korean sources. Do you mind if I take to fixing it this coming week? I'm a little busy at the moment.  Ha ii ya  (talk) (contribs) 17:45, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * No problem. I'll check in with you again in a week or so if I haven't heard from you by then. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 17:56, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * , just checking in to see if you're going to have time to work on this? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 08:39, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

I ran Earwig and it found no issues; I have not done spotchecks yet. One more issue to address: -- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:56, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The lead is supposed to be a summary of the body, but the lead here contains information that is not in the body -- the fact it's about lovers, the nasal tone, and a couple of other details. I would integrate all the information in the lead into the body, then review the lead to make sure it still summarizes the body.
 * Mike Christie I was thinking because this article is on the smaller side, that if I did that the article would just sound very repetitive, although if you would like me to do it, you'll have to give me a few more days.. Sorry about that.
 * If you just copy that information from the lead to the body, yes, it would be repetitive. I would rewrite the body so all the information is there, and then go back to the lead and edit it so it's not repetitive, probably by trimming it down. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 18:39, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Mike Christie Alright, I'll get to work on this, expect it done in a day or two. Ha ii ya  (talk) (contribs) 19:47, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

, I've finally got around to doing the spotchecks: I'm going to fail the article. At least four of these spotchecks have a problem, which would be enough to fail the article, as well as the "social change" comment also being too close to the original as noted above. I think there are other issues that need attention. There are a couple of places where the source says something we aren't clear about ("social change", and the "confirmation" of the lyrics, for example); we can't include material we don't really understand. There are other unstruck points above that should also be addressed before renominating. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 09:46, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * FN 6 cites ""Monggeumpo Taryeong" originated in the Hwanghae and Pyeongan regions of Korea. The song's musical features can be traced to the local folk song "Anju Aewongok" (Korean: 안주애원곡) from the Pyeongan region. "Monggeumpo Taryeong" first became more widely popular in the late Joseon Dynasty due to social change, and became a part of city entertainment culture." The source doesn't say it originated in Pyeongan, just Hwanghae.
 * FN 12 cites "Because "Monggeumpo Taryeong" is easier to sing than other Seodo folk songs, it said to be more popular." The source (machine-translated) has "Monggeum Potaryeong」 is a popular song because the melody is easier than other calligraphy sounds."  Presumably a problem with machine translation; can you clarify whatever it is that's coming across as "calligraphy"?
 * FN 10 cites "Gugak (national songs) such as "Monggeumpo Taryeong", however, may be removed from textbooks in the future". I would suggest making this "Traditional Korean music such as..." and link to Music of Korea; there's no need to introduce the word "gugak" in this article.  And as far as I can tell from the translation, the point being made is not that gugak would be omitted from textbooks, but from music subject achievement standards, which is not quite the same thing, it seems.
 * FN 4 cites "On the Western scale of musical notes, the song uses five pitches; D, F, G, A, and C. The D note is the modal center, the F note is performed in a descending manner, the G note is performed with downward vibrato, and the A is played with an ascending vibrato." The source has "It consists of five pitches, D, F, G, A, C. The D functions as the modal center; F is the third above the central pitch, performed with a downward sliding gesture; the G is performed with downward vibrato and the A is heard with an upward vibrato."  This is too close to the original.
 * FN 4 cites "The harbor in the song is Monggeumpo Harbor in Jangyeon-gun, Hwanghae Province, North Korea. Monggeumpo Harbor is situated on a beach, and surrounded by hills that are covered with red rugosa roses". The source has "Monggeumpo Taryeong is a folk song originating from the northwestern region of Hwanghae and Pyeongan Provinces, and it is also called Jangsangottaryeong. It is sung in a nasal voice in order to produce a more melancholic and sorrowful sound, illustrating the lives of fishermen and the fishing port, surrounded by hills covered with red rugosa roses."  Part of this is too close to the original, and the source doesn't mention the beach or give the location of the harbour.