Talk:Mongolian spot

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Gray Slate marks The PC term is Gray Slate Patches. This should be included in this and cross referenced so the correct terms are used. there is more information at http://newborns.stanford.edu/PhotoGallery/SlateGrey4.html

And there should be something about how these marks can cause a false child abuse report to be made due to the lack of information on these marks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Awisner (talk • contribs) 00:34, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

My
My third child was born healthy, normal, and on time. The doctor's discovered that he had a Mongolian Spot on his upper right buttocks. I was told this was very rare for a caucasion infant, but that it would probably fade within the first few years of his life. He's turning 9 soon, and it is still very visible, although it may have faded slightly since birth. As far as we can dig, all our ancestors were of English, Irish, Dutch and French decent. Just thought this information may interest some researchers on this subject.

Cheryl-Anne Vancouver Island, BC CANADA

East Asian countries
Deleted this section "Indonesian, Uzbeks, Turkmens, etc" - these are not East Asian countries. Intranetusa 01:15, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

But they are Mongoloid, nonetheless. Don't restrict your understanding of race and ethnicity to US consensus definitions! Le Anh-Huy (talk) 13:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I also don't see the reason to refer to east asia. First of all Mongolia is culturally, inguistically and ethnically central asian, or north asian. Secondly it is known only few newborns in korea to have the mark, not japanese and not han chinese, who compromise most of east asians. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.185.238 (talk) 18:28, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Every single Korean has a Mngolian spot.. Mongolian's took over half of the world, Chingiss khaan has the most offspring, what do you expect, if you have a blue spot you have Mongolian in you.

is it genetic or due to a condition?
The article says it is due to a condition at the time of pregnancy.. but it also says it could be if one of the parent is east asian.. that is confusing. Which one is true? Chirag 20:39, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

"Approximately 100% of all Mongolian and Black infants are born with one or more Mongolian Spot." huh? i can understand hispanics having the spot, since they are partialy descendents of native-americans who came from asia. but africans? when was the last time you mistook a black person to be asian? =) obviously, i'm gonna edit that sentence.

The second one of the two references says: "Mongolian spots are common among Asian, East Indian, and African races, but rare among Caucasian and other races."

comment copied from inside the article: "what about the causes? genetics?"


 * Actually, the blue spot comes from the accumulation of melanin, and is not a racial characteristic. Because of that, it is equally common amongst those of African descent.  MightyAtom 01:06, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually Hispanics descend mostly from Iberians (Spain and Portugal, plus Basques, Moors and Sephardites), among who the spot appears even in 51% of the children, that's bigger than the 46% of Latin American you claim to be of Asian descent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.44.217.20 (talk) 12:13, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I think that the use of the term "East Asian" is rather inaccurate for that would only be limited to Japanese, Chinese, Taiwanese, Mongolian and Korean. I believe that it is common among other Pacific Asians as well, such as Indonesians (whom are referred to in this entry), Malaysians, Filipinos, Thais, Viets, etc. Schlumpff 06:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Semitic spot?
There is articles in the internet saying new born infants of portuguese or spanish descent that are born with these blue/grayish spots are of Sephardic origin. E.Carvalho 21:53, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I remember old physical anthropology books that said that the highest ratio of the spot in Europe occurs in Portugal at 51%, Spain must be close. I'd say it's not only Sephardic but also Moorish (Semitic = Afro-Asiatic), from older African-Iberian and African-Mediterranean gene flux and a remnant of the oldest Europeans without the characteristic leucism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.44.217.20 (talk) 12:07, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm Spaniard and I have never seen or heard of somebody with that kind of spot through all of my country. It was a surprise for me. First time I've ever heard of this has been recently as a fruit of the latest 20 years massive inmigrations. Stating that Hispanics in general have these spots is too risky for an encyclopedic article and not objective at all. Hispanic Americans have a high percentage of mixed ancestry with native Americans and it's a very different case.79.152.187.169 (talk) 19:36, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Hungarians
The Mongolian "patch" is well known by persons in Hungary. Dating back to when the Huns came to the area and interbred with the local natives. Apparently a large percentage of children born in Hungary today bear these marks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.104.226.209 (talk) 23:42, 10 May 2007 (UTC).


 * Do you mean the Magyars, rather than the Huns? Whatever genetic legacy the Huns left in Europe is hard to trace and certainly not associated with Hungary specifically.  The Magyars, on the other hand, arrived much later from Asia and founded Hungary. --Saforrest 13:52, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't the spot have come from the Mongolian armies that invaded Hungary in the 13th century? Vidor (talk) 16:53, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Attila,the Huns and Mongols attacked more than Half Europe. Attila was the overlord of Europe until (almost) the present-day French border. Does it matter?

"most notably among the Hungarians who have a 22.6% occurrence rate among their population." It's a very very rare symptom by Hungarian childs. It has similar ratio to albinism. My syster is dermatologist, the professor had to show old photos and video about this patch because it is rare. Nobody counted them, and nobody took statistics about it. It is caused by simple primitive racism, which is laughable: there are many balkanians (romanians or serbians) who couldn't treat that they have olive skin brown eyes and dark (mosly black) hair and shorter stature on average, and the "asian" average Hungarians are taller,  average Hungarians have significantly whiter skin tone and significantly lighter hair and eye color than them. --Celebration1981 (talk) 14:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

"Additionally, Greeks and Armenians have shown to have incidence of the spot..."
Text in question: "Additionally, Greeks and Armenians have shown to have incidence of the spot, presumably due to the racial admixture resulting from intermarriage and other interactions between Turks and the conquered minority populations of the Ottoman Empire.[6]"

What is this?? is this a joke? YOUR SOURCE IS A BLOG??? HOW SCHOLARLY. PROBABLY SOME GUY WATCHING WRESTLING, DRINKING A BEER, AND BLOGGING AT THE SAME TIME. THE RETARD WHO ADDED THIS DID NOT DO IT IN GOOD FAITH.

1) First of all, the source is a link to a study on HUNGARIAN MAGYAR mitochondrial DNA analysis, NOT Greeks or Armenians..and even that source doesnt address mongolian spots specifically.

2) "shown to have some incidence of the spot because of racial admixture..." -- If anything you should put "Greeks/Armenians of Turkish ancestry." If you do this you might as well put Germans up there too since they have large turkish communities over there. Studies show that All europeans are genetically very similar and populations have been largely unchanged since the paleolithic (culture, religion, language, geography have prevented this from happening on a large scale according to Cavalli Sforza). Heres a study of europeans populations (includes Armenians) >> http://www.ajhg.org/AJHG/fulltext/S0002-9297(07)60950-1?large_figure=true . Also, contrary to popular belief, the people of modern day Turkey are mostly descendent from Anatolians from the Hittites, Mongol contribution to the gene pool is approx. 6-22% (i think probably a ruling elite situation where they imposed their culture and language on the native population --like the Saxons did with the British/English >> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/02/how-turkish-are-anatolians.html), making it possibly a rarity in turkey.

3) "...intermarriage and other interactions between Turks and the conquered minority populations of the Ottoman Empire" As a history enthusiast that is especially interested in the classics and the greeks and romans, I have never heard of this before. The brutal Ottoman occupation, language, cultural, and other barriers prevented this from happening on a large scale. Maybe you or the mysterious source you got this info from is thinking of the Janissaries, Europeans that were converted to islam and made into fanatics at a young age to fight for the ottomans, im sure some powerful ottomans took up greek wives-but this wasnt the norm. Until the recent past (esp eastern europe) most marriages were arranged marriages where the two families meet and agree to the arrangements --I find it hard to believe that the devout christian byzantines who were proud of their heritage would marry off their daughters to a muslim ottoman anatolian; I think such a union would make the couple an outcast and they would probably be exiled form the church..after all Greeks and Turks are both very religious > http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/EU_belief_in_god.png. Note: That image was modified, it used to contain Turkey-which was 90+% belief in god). Although I've never researched Armenia, I highly doubt they would intermarry with the ottomans either since they have were oppressed by them also and were the first nation to embrace Christianity.

In sum the presence of mongolian spots (if you forgot that was the subject after all this) in Greeks and Armenians given the background seems highly unlikely to me. Without a source this cant be verified, I did a google search to see if there was anything out there that coupled mongolian spot and greek or armenian--nothing. If this information is actually true, provide the source (Otherwise its just your unqialified opinion). Things like this is what makes professors think Wikipedia is a joke-please cite you sources people. I am deleting this before it corrupts more minds. How ridiculous 134.121.247.116 (talk) 07:24, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I am of Greek ancestry and I had one, as did several others in my family (whether you like it or not). Frankly, I can't understand this hysteria.  Kostaki mou (talk) 00:24, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Image
Could we possibly get a picture that doesn't involve a baby's bottom? WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:31, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's a link to a new page from VisualDxHealth that includes clinical pictures of Mongolian Spots (Blue-Gray Spots) on areas other than the bottom. 208.3.217.201 (talk) 13:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The spot just happens to most often appear near the bottom. Is there any encyclopedic reason to avoid showing that? --Latebird (talk) 21:07, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

my mixed raced sons
both have these marks. im irish and my husband is nigerian so the marks look very prominant against their lightly tanned skin. my mum asked me how they both got the bruises!!!! my eldest boy is nearly 4 and the marking has faded almost completely, so i assume the same will happen to my younger son. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.148.249.231 (talk) 19:50, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Mongoloid spots are relatively common in Ireland, so they may have inherited it from you. 167.1.176.4 (talk) 07:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Birthmarks
Birthmarks, as a whole, are extremely under researched. I've been on a few trips with my Grandfather(quite a while back) to a few Native American reservations(most/virtually all of these tribes untouched by european blood, mind you) on some medical assistance/help/etc/what have you(he was a great overall doctor(pediatrics, Geriatrics, PCP, etc..etc..what have you...but most of the time he helped the young(babies, children, w/e) )...and have come across this mongolian spot a few times, as well as him. But nothing close to 90, or even 75 percent. I've been to a few states, Canada, and a couple of countries south of the border with him. Maybe his opinion would have been considered(more or less) as expert. It is unfortunate he is no longer with us. He was a lovely, pleasant man...with a cheery disposition, and is missed by many people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.87.34 (talk) 01:35, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Disorder?
It's in Category:Congenital disorders, but clearly isn't a disorder. &mdash;Ashley Y 04:35, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Reference title is changed...Reference is about '"Idiom, language and politics"'
Under References,  number 16 is a blog relating a comment then candidate Barack Obama made in a presidential debate with John McCain. It has absolutely nothing to do with a Mongolian spot. In fact, its title is not '"The butt is blue":  the untold story,'  it is '"Green behind the ears":  the untold story' filed by someone named Ben Zimmer under '"Idiom, language and politics"'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yellow2825 (talk • contribs) 17:14, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

"The butt is blue" is clearly a crude translation for humorous effect. I would translate "尻が青い" (which I have never heard in Japan) as "The buttocks are blue," and Japanese Wikipedia agrees with me. Everyone has two shiri. That usage of 青い indicates that the Japanese cannot tell blue from green is yer normal avvige ignorant Western tripe. David Lloyd-Jones (talk) 17:31, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

So strange that some think its abuse
Its strange, and funny that some white people who have not seen it think its abuse. Its very prevalent among Indian (east indian/ south Asian babies. and also black babies. With Indian babies I've seen its very blue, and just a very large spot on the back, never seen it any where else, and its always gone by the age of one, as this article says.different articles seem to have different things.

Never heard of it sticking around till 12...that's weird.

http://www.whattoexpect.com/first-year/baby-care/baby-skin-care/mongolian-spots.aspx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.165.153.200 (talk) 05:51, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Why is it strange? And why funny? Surely it would be natural for someone who hadn't any knowledge of a Mongolian Spot to first suspect that it was a bruise. My son had one by the way and I'm what you might call a "white person". It's simply that they don't know, not that they are strange, or "funny". I mean either you smirk at misinformed people or you educate them. That is what Wikipedia is for.Jiver2 (talk) 22:39, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

My Grist for the Mill
A close Japanese acquaintance, 253, had the spot on both sides when she was 18, and they became invisible by the time she was 26. She told me what she was told with pride by her mother, that it was a sign of her having one or more Mongolian ancestors -- and that this demonstrated that the much vaunted racial purity of the Japanese people was a lie. She speculated that perhaps the Divine Wind, 神风, had been ineffective the first time around, too. She also said that it was well known in her family that the spot could be found in Europe as far west as the line dividing France into Langedoc, Langue d'Oc, and Langue d'Oeil. This indicate that the north eastern, Oc-speaking, group had been invaded "by Attila the Hun," so went the story. On the racial purity of the Japanese I can add that I attended the wedding of an employee in his northern hometown of Sendai, where he had returned to his family for the event. He was marrying an Okinawa girl he had met in a Tokyo dance hall. He, like all his family, was of a clear human type, sallow, long-faced, Saturnine. This is somewhat typical in the Japanese snow country, and particularly the northern provinces. His bride was of another, roly-poly, cheery, Pacific.

Clearly the Yamato "race" come in as many flavours as any other. David Lloyd-Jones (talk) 17:18, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Origin of the name
The article says "it was described and named after Mongolians". I suspect that it was named not after that relatively small group of people, but after the Mongoloid race. But I don't have access to any of the four sources cited. Maproom (talk) 00:11, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Rename page to Congenital dermal melanocytosis?
Even the introductory paragraph uses the updated name and puts "Mongolian spot" in paragraphs as a former name; how much work would be needed to update the page name? Myoglobin (talk) 13:46, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Several options
Coming to this now, Mongolian blue spot as was the common name is going out of favour and, at least where I practice, there is a movement towards Slate grey naevus, but Congenital dermal melanocytosis is the more correct scientific name. My preference would be to keep this at a common name, and a brief Google search suggests the old term is still prevalent so it should probably not move for now. Any other thoughts on this? |→ Spaully ~talk~ 13:23, 7 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Why the name is Mongolian spot? Im a turkish roma and was born with this spot. Im not mongolian. Later when i grew up this spot went away, my mother told me, before i got circumcised this spot was away Rom baro (talk) 18:16, 1 January 2023 (UTC)