Talk:Monkey King/Archive 1

Some Changes
I know these edits are probably going to start a flame/edit war, but the article really did need to be re-written. I removed most of the Trivia relating to Journey to the West (put that stuff in the Journey to the West Article.) I mixed some of the obscure anime trivia if it was poorly written. Obviously, the character is a major inspiration for various video game and anime characters. Maybe someone should make a list article or something, so it doesn't clutter up the page as much. Keep in mind that this is supposed to be an encyclopedia article, not a fansite. Its about a character in Journey to the West, not the story itself. I moved the political section to a more sensible place. I scrapped some of the fan art. Cleaned up a few things, etc. The article still needs a whole lot of work, though...I didn't even touch two large sections. Vorago 07:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I just think you should have left his origin picture on there. Dark Rain.


 * Made a separate article of Sun Wukong in modern media called Sun Wukong in popular culture, I left some behind but if anyone wants to move anything back and forth between the two articles, go right ahead. Glassram.

Grammar errors and Un-encyclopedic language
The entire section "making trouble in heaven" is chock full of odd language. This sentence especially "He proved to be an incorrigible monkey, however, after Jade Emperor looked down at him and didn't invite him to a royal banquet, he was scarfing down the Empress's Peaches of Immortality and popping Lord Lao Tzu's Pills of Indestructibility like they were Tic Tacs. Feeling guilty, but not that guilty, he became the biggest headache for everybody in heaven." I don't think the expression "popping them like tic-tacs" is considered good form. Any thoughts? --Akajune 03:42, 18 October 2005 (UTC)


 * "Snacks"? --Maru (talk) 04:40, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think that any exaggeration expresion is need. Son Goku22
 * I fully agree. I made a couple very minor changes, and removed the Tic Tacs line. Vorago

Xuan Zang
I'm not entirely happy about linking the Tang priest to the article about his historical model; it seems like a situation ripe for confusion.

Incidentally, in all the English-language versions of the story I've encountered, the Tang priest has been called Tripitaka. Has anyone else --Paul A 14:43 22 May 2003 (UTC)
 * 1) also encountered this?
 * 2) got any idea why?


 * Please say more about how the link to the historical person might lead to confusion; I'm new to wikipedia so I may not be aware of the various ways things get messed up. I found the connection useful as I wasn't aware that Tang Priest character was rooted in an actual person  -- as a reader I personally like this type of link.  My translation is Journey to the West, translated by W.J.F Jenner, published by Foreign Language Press, Beijing, 1982, ISBN 7-119-00987-7.  The names this author uses are:  Sun Wukong,  Sanzang, Zhu Bajie (Pig), and Sha Wujing (Friar Sand).  --technopilgrim 18:07 22 May 2003 (UTC)


 * I agree that it's interesting that he's based on a historical person, and should be mentioned &#8211; but not here, and not by linking "Sanzang" to Xuan Zang without further explanation. To do that is to imply that Xuan Zang is the article about the fictional monk, not the historical one, and is only going to confuse people. A more sensible tack would be to link the mention of Sanzang here to an article about the fictional monk, and in that article have a link saying something like "Sanzang is based on the historical monk Xuan Zang." Of course, before we can have an article about the monk, we have to settle on what he's called.  :)  Arthur Waley's abridged translation (ISBN 0140441115), David Weir's paraphrase (ASIN B000066CSH), David Kherdian's paraphrase (ISBN 1570625816), and Anthony C. Yu's complete translation (vol 1 ISBN 0226971457) all call him Tripitaka. (I suspect that Waley started it, and the others followed his lead; the Waley translation was pretty influential.) I think, in fact, that "Tripitaka" is a kind of translation of "Sanzang", but I'm not sure; I brought it up here in hopes of finding somebody who was sure.  -- Paul A 02:57 23 May 2003 (UTC)


 * It appears that "Sanzang" and "Tripitaka" are two different names for the same thing, so that's all right. (I like Google.) --Paul A 04:49 23 May 2003 (UTC)


 * OK, now I see your point -- that would be a nice way to do it. But even more than we need an article on a fictional Sanzang, we need an article on Journey to the West. That would be really grand.  That would be wonderful.  I'm going to Guatemala tomorrow for 10 days which is fortunate because it would take me at least that long to write such an article.  But I can't help thinking -- Journey to the West is a really important work.  Sure, articles on Sanzang and Monkey King are nice, but a real encyclopedia would have a JTW article.


 * (I've only been involved in this wiki thing for 48 hours but already I'm developing article avarice).


 * Of course, you're already completely addicted and I suspect most of your friends have given you up for lost. You also have all those translations on hand.  You could write the JTW article...  or maybe just START the article, in wiki fashion


 * Just a suggestion... a hopeful suggestion  --technopilgrim 05:45 23 May 2003 (UTC)


 * I've been meaning to do a Journey to the West article for a while now, but kept putting it off until I found time to do it "properly". This is a silly approach to take to an infinitely-re-editable encyclopaedia article, I have now realised &#8212; so Wikipedia is Journey to the West-less no more. --Paul A 09:10 23 May 2003 (UTC)
 * (PS. I don't actually have all those translations to hand. I've read them all at various times &#8212; except in the case of the Weir, which is a television series, and I've watched that &#8212; but the only one I actually own a copy of is the Yu. Which isn't a bad "only", all things considered.)

My compliments
To the author(s) of this piece: the article has the same breezy, energetic style of its subject, and is informative to boot. --Italo Svevo


 * I totally agree. Excellent! --Kent Wang 14:32, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * I like this piece. However, the information is inaccurate in many aspects. -Aven


 * Thank you for your suggestion&#32;regarding &]]! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make whatever changes you feel are needed. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the  link at the top. You don't even need to log in! (Although there are some reasons why you might like to…) The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes&mdash;they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills.  New contributors are always welcome. --Maru (talk) 03:37, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Pears of Immortality?
In the Chinese novel, he ate the peaches, not pears. Can someone clarify the difference between the English version and the Chinese original?


 * It's peaches in every English version I've ever encountered. I'd have changed it long ago, but I somehow never noticed - my brain's been going "fruit beginning with pea, good" without ever realizing it was the wrong fruit... :/ &mdash;Paul A 11:09, 6 Sep 2003 (UTC)


 * Ditto- I've never seen pears either. --maru 15:04, 9 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Definitely Peaches. Normal peaches themselves symbolise long life to the Chinese. --Yiren


 * Weren't pears what were used by Susanoo, the similarly wild Japanese storm-deity, to defeat Orochi? I figure if one has both of these on the brain at the same time, it might cause confusion. Afterall, Susanoo and Sun Wukong had rather similar personalities from what I can tell. ~ SotiCoto 195.33.121.133 11:37, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Invulnerability
I thought he became indestructible, along with his discernment eyes, after they put him in Lao Tzu's furnace not after eating the elixir.


 * No, it wasn't the furnace that made him indestructible. The whole point of putting him the furnace was that he'd already proved resistant to all less extreme attempts at simiacide, and although IIRC he's said to have been hardened by the experience, he would have just died had he not been indestructible to begin with. --Paul A 08:23, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * That's true. It was actually the immortal elixir-pills and peaches that made him invulnerable. (!Mi luchador nombre es amoladora de la carne y traigo el dolor! 00:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC))


 * Actually, the reason of his physical invulnerability that was given in Journey to the West was that he was a STONE monkey born from the hardest stone on earth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.34.65.27 (talk) 11:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Where in the world did you get that information from? Yes, he was born from a stone, but it never said anything about it being the strongest substance on earth. He didn't become semi-invincible until after he attained immortality and ate of the celestial pills and such. I use the world semi-invincible as there are several times that he is hurt, namely: 1) the gold crown squeezes his head almost to the point of popping; 2) a demon drops the weight of three mountains on him and it causes blood to squirt from his nose. These are all I can think of off hand, but I'm sure there are more examples. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:36, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Staff or cudgel?
The wikilink to cudgel says it is a short cone shaped club. Sun's weapon was actually a pillar he robbed from the dragon king's palace. It is supposed to be cylindrical shape so it should be called a staff instead of a cudgel. --Kowloonese 19:05, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, it's actually neither. A staff is supposed to have some sort of decoration or 'head' at one end, as to signify some sort of 'holy powers' or such. In chinese, it's actually called a bàng (sorry cannot type the chinese on this eMac at skool), and a crudgel is exactly what you say it is, short club usually made of wood.
 * This bàng, when not in use, it's the size of a tooth pick and can be stored in his ear, and it is certainly made out of a fancy metal. When expanded to full size, it looks and works identical to the pole used by people who does the sport of pole vaulting, except the coloring at both ends, the fact that it is indestructible and have magical powers.
 * But calling it a pole just doesn't quite cut it, can anyone think of a proper english name for that? --LG-&#29356;&#22812;&#21449; 00:41, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)


 * A staff doesnt need a 'head' at one end. See staff and quarterstaff.  Staff is absolutely fine.

We would translate it as a pole over here in Singapore. It was used for beating out the heavens (and people's heads). Staff has connotations of being used as a support of some sort - something he's never done. Slow —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

&#29492; &#29579;
sandbox, I needed some place to compare characters I found on chinese text.

Can someone provide the English meaning to the Taiwanese and Cantonese names? My friends in yau ma tei pronounce it "how ze wong" and used characters similar to the ones in this section title. Difference?


 * it sounds "how ze" is an informal expression of monkey, and "wong" stands for king. But I never heard anyone use this expression. Sun Wukong is the most common name of him.


 * "How ze wong" is the title that Sun took on when he became king of "Fa Gwau San" (Flower and Fruit Mountain) He retains that title whenever he is at "Fa Gwau San". However, when traveling with the priest, he does not use this title. He is also called "How gur" which means Brother Monkey by the other disciples.:: Aven


 * Actually, "how ze wong " (or "hou zi wang" in Mandarin) is never used in any Chinese version. When he became the king of Flower & Fruit Mountain, he called him self "mei hou wang".  "Mei" = Handsome, "Hou" = Monkey, "Wang" = King. --Yiren


 * I believe this 'how ze wong' is just an informal name used by people when refering to Sun. For example, my grandmother would use both 'Sun Wukong' or 'Hou'er' on him. When you say 'Hou'er', it's just like when you call a short guy 'shorty'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisliu (talk • contribs) 08:28, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Corrections
I made some corrections regarding some of the figures and i want to see if anyone can verify them
 * he was burned in the cauldron for 49 days
 * he could flip 108000 miles, not 18000 as stated before (108000 is also the number given for how far they have to travel to get to the west)
 * Incorrect. Sun Wukong is stated to be able to flip "Yu Man Ba Chin Li" which translates into One "Yu" Ten-Thousand "Man" Eight "Ba" Thousand "Chin" miles "Li". The distance for the journey is in fact equivalent to three flips, calculated out to 54000 miles. -Aven
 * In all the books and dramas produced by China, the standard statement of his range in one flip was "shi wan ba qian li". "Shi" 10 x "Wan" 10,000 + "Ba" 8 x "Qian" 1000.  108,000 miles. --Yiren

Clean-up
There are some dodgy bits of style and grammar, some incorrect Wiki-formatting, and the general organisation of the article isn't clear. I placed the tag not to much to get others to do the work as to mark the fact that I intend to do it (but others are free to pitch in). --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 09:53, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I just rearranged the Misc. part a little according to types of work that Sun Wukong appeared in. Maybe instead of all the details it'll be better to just have a list of the works? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Another suggestion: cut off all the different names of Xuanzang in the opening paragraph, it's not really necessary in an article devoted to Sun Wukong, and that info can be transferred to his section in Journey to the West article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)


 * I agree. Why not go ahead and clean up all the explanatory descriptions about the monk from the opening paragraph? Have there been any opposition? --LittleTree 00:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

surn vukorn?
The first sentence of the article says that Sun Wukong is also known as "surn vukorn"? What is the origin of this pronounciation? There's nothing to indicate this. --Hong Qi Gong 16:26, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know. It came from an anon IP years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=S%C5%ABn_W%C3%B9k%C5%8Dng&diff=1848621&oldid=1586293. --maru  (talk)  contribs 00:00, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Another modern reference
I'm also seeing a lot of parallel to the current anime/manga, "Inuyasha."
 * 1) A supernatural being is compeled/coerced into aiding a human a quest to retreive some Mcguffin
 * 2) Inuyasha is fitted with a necklace, prayer beads perhaps.  Should the human, Kagome become displeased with Inuyasha, she simply says, "sit boy." and the necklace's weight increases astronomically, slamming Inuyasha  into the dirt, usually face first.
 * 3) Like Sun Wukong, Inuyasha starts as fairly disreputable character, who through the experiences of the story becomes a true hero.

Nkuzmik 00:01, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree, Inuyasha has more than one similarity to Sun Wukong. Observation 06:30, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Source for the "untraditional" pic?
It's not from any comic, manhua, or manga that I'm aware of.

Quality of the article
Frankly this article is appalling. I was quite disappointed with the journey to the west article but there is so much wrong with this article that it probably needs rewritten. The article is messy, there are random modern images and more traditional images and no justification of their relevance.

The more fundamental problem is that there is little content that relates to any areas of academic interest in the character. In total all I noticed in the article was the sentence "Some scholars believe he is based upon the legend of Hanuman, the Indian monkey hero from the ancient Ramayana epic." While an appealing theorey it is one which has a lot of flaws. The introduction to Anthoney C. Yu's translation sites Glen Dudbrigde's book "The Hsi-Yu-Chi : A Study of Antecedents to the Sixteenth-Century Chinese Novel" saying that the later half of the book is almost entirely about the origin of the Wukong character and summarising some of the arguments. In contrast to the scantness of reference to such issues a lot of space is dedicated to what is basically trivia, in fact with the exception some of the first paragraph the entire article is trivia.

I have no intention to rewrite any part of this article; I know enough to know that this is not my field of expertise. I'm leaving this comment mainly as a warning to anyone using the article.

I think we should have a picture of him in The Forbidden Kingdom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.170.191.92 (talk) 23:59, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay. Yes, I agree that there's a lot to do. But it's useless to point out all these weaknesses and not do anything about it. Wikipedia cannot just take random images ripped off Google search and stick those on the article. There are a bunch of policy pages on this issue. See this and this. WP:IMAGE gives a more general overview. Another issue you pointed out is the lack of academic information. When editors write about something so-and-so said in < > or < >, they must use references. This article is lacking a lot of these. Really, if you could provide a couple sources it'd be great - it would give something to work off. Right now I'm extremely busy - I've got a paper to write in school and loads of homework. This isn't my area of expertise - but that doesn't mean I can't edit it. Per WP:TRIVIA, trivia's discouraged - you are encouraged to be bold and remove it.
 * And please sign your posts on talk pages with four tildes ( ~ ) as it says on the top when you edit a talk page :) This will produce your name (or in your case, your IP address) and time you posted. Thanks. Icy  // ♫ 00:15, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Sun Wukong in History
According to the foreword to the translation I have by Anthony Yu, there are no clear known antecendents to Sun Wukong, and certainly none before the Buddhist period, which contradicts the claim that "In spite of its popularity (or perhaps because of it) legends regarding Sun Wukong have changed with the ebb and flow that is Chinese culture. The tale with Buddha and the "Pillars" is a prime example, and did not appear until Buddhism was introduced to China during the Han Dynasty. Various legends concerning Sun Wukong date back to before written Chinese history. They tend to change and adapt to the most popular Chinese religion of a given era." Unless someone can cite a source for this, I suggest it gets deleted.

Hi, I just saw the entry on Hanuman in the Britannica Online Encyclopedia (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/254649/Hanuman). This states as follows: "Hanuman is also a popular deity in Tibet, Southeast Asia, Japan, and China, and throughout this area many temples are erected for his worship and districts of towns bear his name.... Outside India, rather different tales are told of himHe has been identified as the inspiration for the monkey hero of the great Chinese poem Xiyouji (“Journey to the West”)". Kalhanajunior (talk) 10:21, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Xingzhe (行者)
The article says "Xingzhe (行者): Meaning "traveller", a common name for a travelling monk in the old days." I thought a 行者 is a monk who works in a temple doing chores, and who does not have to have his head shaved? (see eg. 佛教制度) The word must have come not from traveling (旅行) but from training/practices (修行). --LittleTree 22:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

My revert/addition under Modern Media - Dragon Ball
Someone had changed the adjective "largely" to "partially" describing the influence of this character on that of Goku of Dragon Ball fame. I changed it back, and added a bit more test expounding on that. There is much more info to back it up, but most of it is more related to "Journey to the West" in general and not so much on Monkey King in particular. For example, the initial story arc of DB was conceived as a loose retelling of JttW, with Bulma in the priests role on a quest for the Dragon Balls instead of the sutras, and the roles of Pigsy and the Sandy Priest filled by Oolong and Yamcha respectively. --Reverend Loki 18:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation & Redirects
I'm surprised to find this article here in Wikipedia. I have problem with the fact that I never knew that this article existed. The main reason's because Sun Wukong is known to people of other nationalities as well, such as Koreans and Japanese.

I'm assuming that the correct pronunciation in Chinese is Saun Woo Kong. Right? I'll create more redirects according to that combination.

And as for Korean and Japanese pronunciations, Korean: Son Oh Gong. Japanese: Goku.

(Wikimachine 00:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC))
 * Actually, I think Chinese is Song WuKong. ddcc 02:14, 13 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Traditionally, Romanization of Chinese language has been hit and miss. Many of the systems employ what most would consider to be non-intuitive pronunciations (Q- as ch-, for example).  As such, the same Chinese word could be written 20 different ways using the English alphabet, and none of them would be wrong.  So, it's hard to say that it is definitivel pronounced one way or another, but we can try and make sure the most popular variants all point to the same spot. --Reverend Loki 19:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Forced to leave.
I read the story and saw that Xuanzhang useully forced Sun Wukong to leave when he killed brigands and demons disguised as man(useully women). Do we need this infomation in this article?
 * It's in the Journey to the West, no need to retell. And, yes, this has happened more than once. Xuanzang is quite a gullible monk... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.95.185.132 (talk) 16:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Other related material
Hi just noticed that other manga's not mentioned are Orion by Masamune Shirow. This book contains a Monkey deity known as Songoku - who fights Susano. Also in the Naruto Manga/Anime the third Hokage has a indestructable staff Enma that can transform into a monkey king.

Peace

Jayrei —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.30.13.91 (talk) 14:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC).

birthday
i know he's a fictional character, but the same as probably every god in the chinese culture, there's a birthday associated with the god so people could celebrate it's birth. There's many websites that indicates his birthday, such as http://www.wrsn.com.tw/a1-1.htm. His birthday is said to be Chinese calendar's Oct 12th. Z3u2 23:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding this, that date is actually his Day of Enlightenment (齊天大聖佛辰). I don't really think that he actually has a birthday, nor do I think that it was important in traditional East Asian culture. --A10203040 05:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Split article
The pop culture and media section of this article has been become so long that I suggest a split from the main article, such as Sun Wukong in poular culture. Votes on this? 71.57.98.227 15:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC) Chris G.

Do it, please.I say we leave two or three of the most notable ones, though. Vorago

Move discussion on Son Goku (DragonBall)
Please see where a discussion of what to do with the redirect for Son Goku, which currently redirects to Sun Wukong, is occuring. Kyaa the Catlord 14:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Translation of the name Wukong
The article states: It was from him that Houwang received the Buddhist name Sun Wukong (Wukong meaning aware of emptiness). AND The given name Wùkōng means "awakened to emptiness". according to WFJ Jenner's translation it's awakened to emptiness but I'm not fluent in Chinese so I cannot say for sure (at the Swedish Sun Wukong page I've used awakened referering to Jenner since that is what is known) --TheOddOne2 00:22, 26 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You could have just pasted the chinese characters for his name into a chinese-english dictionary. This dictionary says the character for Wu means "to apprehend, realize, become aware". This one says the same thing. This one says "comprehend". So I would go with "Aware of emptiness". --Ghostexorcist 10:23, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

108,000 li vs. circumference of the Earth
According to the entry for Li (unit), the unit has had many values, and some of the oldest were approximately 400 meters rather than half a kilometer. For example, the Han/South Korean value of 392.72 meters would make 108,000 li equal to 42413 kilometers, about 6% larger than the circumference of the Earth. Knowledge of the spherical Earth may have been available to the people of Vedic India through Yajnavalkya in the 9th century BC, so it is plausible that those telling this story had access to the idea, and quite accurate measurements had been made by the Greeks by the time of Eratosthenes. This context seems to enrich the story of Sun Wukong's challenge to Buddha: given the power to leap 108,000 li in any direction, he inevitably lands in the spot where he started! (given the approximation of a spherical Earth, of course) Mike Serfas 20:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think back in Ming many people know how big earth is; and, 108000 is a common colloq. exaggerating expression for big no.s in chinese, even today222.95.185.132 (talk) 16:17, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:MonkeyKingTraditionalPoster.jpg
Image:MonkeyKingTraditionalPoster.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 22:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:The monkey king.jpg
Image:The monkey king.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 02:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Confusion in the article
It is not clear to me from reading this article whether Sun Wukong, the Monkey King, originated in Journey To The West, or is a figure from Chinese folklore that was incorporated into that story.

The article introduces him as a character in a novel, but in the Miscellaneous section under Influence it is stated that legends concerning Sun Wukong date back to before written Chinese history.

Could this be clarified? I think if he is a character from prehistoric folklore this should be mentioned in the introduction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.241.220.197 (talk) 01:14, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Subhuti vs Bodhi
I don't know if Sun Wukong's teacher is, in fact, Subhuti. I know that some translations may have translated 普提祖师 (Puti Zushi) as Patriarch Subhuti, but there are a number of problems with this translation. First of all, even though 普提 or Bodhi is a Buddhist term, 祖师 or patriarch is almost an exclusively Taoist title. Secondly, Puti Zushi never attended Gautama Buddha in the novel, unlike most of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas -- in fact, he was consistantly absent from the court of the Buddha, which would be most uncharacteristic for Subhuti, who was a disciple of Gautama. Thirdly, Puti Zushi taught a mixture of both Buddhist AND Taoist scriptures. His temple carried a clearly Taoist flavor, and the powers he taught to Sun Wukong was almost definitely Taoist as well. As such, I have changes all Subhuti (which refers to a specific historical person) to Bodhi (which is a direct translation from the original language without making any assumptions). mean (talk) 19:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, you are incorrect. The title of Patriarchs are common in Mahayana and Tibetan Buddhism such as the Chan Mahayana Buddhist schools. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Buddhist_patriarchs .So your argument that the term Patriarch is an exclusively Taoist title is incorrect. Rather, it has been understood generally in Chinese culture that Patriarch Bodhi was most likely Subhuti, and it was not necessary for the mentioned figure to be at the court of the Buddha. The reference to Subhuti is within a literature/story context, as it is to Buddha, who would not be alive physically and factually in the timeframe set for the story.Lordadvantine (talk)


 * Monkey's teacher is cast as a Taoist immortal. Please provide a source of some kind that says he is a Buddhist figure, beyond his name. Be sure to put all sourcing on the talk page so the matter can be discussed. I have reverted your edit to the most stable version of the article. Be advised that WP:3RR prohibits editors from reverting a page more than three times in a 24 hour period. You are coming close to breaking this rule. If it is broken, it can lead to a user's editing being privileges taken away for a given time. Please do not revert the page until a consensus has been made. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 16:15, 23 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Sources stating that the original teacher of Sun Wukong as the Buddhist Patriach Bodhi is available in the original text of Journey to the West in Mandarin, not the Western/English translations of the original text. This is also common knowledge amount the devotees of the Monkey God, Sun Wukong, who is also popular Buddhist protector and patron saint for protection (against evil) and scholarly pursuits in Hong Kong and among Malaysian Chinese. I can refer you to the sources if you understand Mandarin. When reading and interpreting these sources, they must be understood within their original cultural context, and not from interpretation made by the English translation material. Lordadvantine (talk) 23:18, 23 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Ghostexorcist, Before you revert the changes again on arguing whether Patriarch Bodhi is a Taoist sage, please provide your own sources to back-up your statement that Patriarch Bodhi was indeed Taoist (which English translation edition was this of the original text?). As you do know, if you have read the text in the entirety, the story of Journey To The West is largely inclined towards a Buddhist context than a Taoism context, though set within Chinese cultural beliefs. The conclusion also at the end states that both Sun Wukong and Xuanzang achieves Enlightenment and become Buddhas(or more accurately Arahants) in their own rights. These circumstances and general Buddhist orientation of Journey to the West lends further credence that Patriarch Bodhi was most likely a Buddhist sage than a Taoist one. But I am referring here to what devotees of Sun Wukong, in his form as a Buddhist protector and patron saint against evil, believe, in that Patriarch Bodhi was most likely Subhuti or the Mahayana Chan Buddhism Patriach Bodhi-Dharma. Lordadvantine (talk) 23:18, 23 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Before I continue, I would like to remind you of WP:Civil. Calling me a dictator on my talk page is not a good step towards coming to an agreement. Also, If you revert the page again, you will have broken the WP:3RR rule. Please do not revert the page until we have come to some consensus, otherwise your account may be blocked for a given time for breaking the rule.


 * The removal of the race horse from the article is unwarranted as it serves a redirect for those who came onto this page by mistake. Something being "insulting" is not a valid reason for removal. This is an encyclopedia after all and people need to be able to find the articles they are looking for. The Japanese picture is more atheistically pleasing. He is a fictional character, so I don't see what the problem is with the depiction. As for my source, please see Ping Shao, "Huineng, Subhūti, and Monkey's Religion in 'Xiyou ji'", The Journal of Asian Studies, Vol. 65, No. 4 (Nov., 2006), pp. 713-740. This paper explains in detail why the originally Buddhist Patriarch Subhuti was used as the basis for monkey's Taoist master. The Buddhist Partiarch Subhuti and the Taoist Patriarch Subhuti are two different people in the literary context of the novel. Also, per your comments on my talk page, I don't see how Subhuti could possibly be Bodhidharma. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 06:48, 24 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Hi, I tried to encompass both buddhist and taoist "features" of Sun's first master in an understandable way. Of course, it is a huge simplification - the nature of the master is discussed by scholars with different results, as it is also the topic of the article mentioned by Ghostexorcist. The link to Bodhi was misleading by itself and in the context "Taoist immortal Bodhi" also confusing for an "ordinary" reader. We can discuss (further) improvements here. WikiHannibal (talk) 22:49, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

In other media section (removed from article)
I have removed a large chunk of the section to the talk page until sources are found to support the claims. People are ignoring the "needs sources" tag at the top, and, by adding this stuff, are making the article worse. Sun is such a beloved character that I am appalled that the article is not above a GA status. I would like to improve it, but I don't have the time. I hope what I'm doing here is the first step towards bettering the page:

Animation and comics

In anime, Sun Wukong appears in various guises, usually with some variant of the name Son Goku. He also features in the Japanese manga/anime Saiyuki, which is based on the original Journey to the West legend. The main character Son Goku from Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball is based on Sun Wukong, and many other major characters in the series are also originally based on characters from the Monkey King/Journey West story (though they all diverge from the original source material as the series progresses).

In the anime series Starzinger, he was the inspiration for Jan Kugo, who wields a similar-looking weapon.

In the anime series Naruto, he is depicted as a summon named Enma and is used by the Third Hokage. When summoned, Enma is even capable of trasforming into a weapon similar-looking to the Ruyi Jingu Bang.

He is one of the central characters in Gene Luen Yang's American Born Chinese graphic novel, as a story revolves around his origins.

In the Read or Die OVA, the I-Jin duplicate of Genjo Sanzo has powers similar to Sun Wukong, having an extensible staff which can control the sea and riding on a flying cloud.

Shinzo, known as Mushrambo (マシュランボー Mashuranbō?) in Japan, is an anime based on Journey to the West. Mushra who protects Yakumo on her 'journey to the west' in search of the last human city, Shinzo, is similar to the Monkey King with how he loves to fight, wields a staff, and wears a golden headband.

Video games

SonSon is a 1984 Capcom video game loosely based on Journey to the West. In this game, the player assumes the role of the titular character, which is a monkey boy based on Sun Wukong. A second player assumes the role of TonTon, who is based on Zhu Wuneng. The granddaughter of SonSon, who shares his name, is a playable character in a later Capcom game, the fighting game crossover Marvel vs. Capcom 2: New Age of Heroes. The original SonSon is also featured in Pocket Fighter, flying across the stage from time to time; he drops various items when hit.

In DotA All-Stars (a custom scenario for Blizzard Entertainment's real-time strategy computer game Warcraft III), players can obtain an Item named The Monkey King Bar, which contains great power.

Sun Wukong is confirmed as a playable character in Warriors Orochi 2, the sequel to a video game crossover of Dynasty Warriors and Samurai Warriors, all made by Koei. However instead being portrayed as a good guy he is one of the new officers of Orochi's army, since it is Taira no Kiyomori who frees him, not Xuanzang.

Also, the design of the Pokemon Infernape, is based on Sun WuKong. The gold elements in his design seem to indicate this, and his name can also be linked to Japanese interpretations of the character (e.g. Son Goku).

Also in Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy XII there is a pole weapon called the Gokuu Rod that is a reference to Sun Wukong's signature weapon.

Also, in various Shin Megami Tensei games, such as Digital Devil Saga and Persona, Wukong, under the name Seiten Taisei, often appears as an enemy or (in the case of the Persona series) as a Persona for the use of the characters. In nearly every single such game, Wukong is either high level or low level but very useful for that level.

--Ghostexorcist (talk) 15:27, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Uh......
The article has need of sources, can someone PLEASE tell me why Journey to the West is not a source? It has the entire legend of the Monkey King, Sun Wukong. Stop getting idiots who only know of anime refernces to edit this article (I mean, I know a couple too like a cameo in the latter part of Gokudo but at least I've read Journey to the West), and start recruiting Chinese myth experts to help this article. Essentially, I just added Journey to the West as a source for anything in book, and left it at that, but seriously...Bulmabriefs144 (talk) 21:26, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh and yes, my tranlation copy says Subhuti. He was a Taoist teacher, so Bodhi doesn't jive. Bulmabriefs144 (talk) 21:36, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Havoc in Heaven
Why is Havoc in Heaven not in the Film and Television section, but in the Appearances in other media section, where it is only given a single line? To quote the article on it, "many consider this 1964 iteration to be the most original, fitting and memorable." Why does the Indiana Jones script for a film that was never shot, and Dragonball, get more mention? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.60.2.229 (talk) 09:55, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Dragonball reference
It doesn't belong here, as there is no indication it has particular importance to a general understanding of the character. ?It is located at the IPC article linked in the See also section, which suffices. Mintrick (talk) 17:19, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Although uncited and horribly written, the info was rightly placed in the "influence" section. It should at least be noted that Son Goku from the Dragon Ball series (along with other characters) were based on Sun Wukong (Son Goku in Japanese). Of course, Goku's use of the nimbus cloud and power pole should be mentioned as well. The Son Goku (Dragonball) article has a cited article in which the creator states in an interview that he used the Monkey King as the bases of his character. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 20:06, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It is noted, in the IPC article. For it to be mentioned here, it needs to be of actual importance to general perception. Otherwise, we overshadow the mythical importance with trivial modern mentions, violating WP:WEIGHT. Mintrick (talk) 23:13, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Better late than never. I had no idea anyone had replied.


 * You are misquoting policy. Undue weight only applies to some kind of an argument with two sides to the issue. And like its name implies, the "influences" section is about his impact on Asian culture, whether it be pre or postmodern. There is no underlying argument in the section. You have to remember that this is an article solely about Sun and not about any other character from his novel. So it doesn't matter if duplicate information is mentioned on another article. (What is the "IPC article" anyway?) Since Goku is known the world over, he should definitely be mentioned in the article. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 17:50, 7 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I agre, the "influences" section should include the best known modren telling of the story "Dragon Ball" as the story of Sun Wukong directly influenced it. About a young Monkey like child meeting a monk and learning how to do many things from fighting to flying on clouds, he even uses a magic pole that can change its size and shape. He later goes on many adventures and fights many Demons and Dragons with his super human strangth. Along the way he makes many friends most that come right out of the original story. To say its of no importance would be like saying the adding of Budda at a later date has no importance to the original story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.165.248.130 (talk) 11:03, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Monkey Imp
Near the end of the article it translates the Chinese characters as "monkey imp." Don't they rather say something like "keeper of the horses?" This was also a taunt used by his enemies as this was his original post in the heavenly bureaucuracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.35.88.110 (talk) 00:43, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * IIRC, there was a practice at the time to put an image of a monkey, if not keep actual pet monkeys, in or around your stable as some sort of good luck practice, to ensure the strength and health of your horses. Sun Wukong's appointment to this position as "Master of the Stables" was the Celestial Emperor following this superstition, while pulling a little trick on Monkey himself without his awareness.  The trickster was tricked.  The taunt as "Monkey Imp" downplays the official Imperial Title he was appointed, and plays up his role as assigned "good luck charm". --Reverend Loki (talk) 16:36, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Zuko's Story
There is a character by the name of Sun Wukong in the new The Last Airbender prequel manga "Zuko's Story" and he's apparently the Red Spirit. Is this character inspired by this figure? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.105.36.88 (talk) 08:16, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Talk pages are only used for discussion of the article itself. Please direct your question to WP:Reference desk/Humanities. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 13:41, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Articles on obscure references?
I don't understand why there should be an article on things like the Mountain of Flowers and Fruit and Water Curtain Cave? It seems really obscure. Homunculus (duihua) 00:45, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Removed tag
I thought there were enough references in the article, and that the big tag was neither necessary nor aesthetically pleasing. If you disagree with this action, please list your reasons. Homunculus (duihua) 03:19, 4 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I disagree because 10 references do not cover the entire page. If you take away the sourced information I have added, there are only 5 references. Extra citations are needed in the Celebrations, Influence, Names, and In other media sections. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 21:36, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Lead picture
I have reverted the recent addition of File:Sun Wukong.jpg to the info box because you can barely even tell what it is. His back is turned around and the majority of the picture is wrinkled clothing. The only inkling that it is Sun is the small part of his arm, head, and cudgel that is visible. I doubt even a person knowledgeable about Xiyouji would be able to tell what it is at first glance without some sort of prompting. The original 19th century picture is a better representation because, instead of an extreme close up of his back, Sun's whole body is clearly visible and facing towards the eye.

I have no problems with the picture gracing the page, just not in the lead. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 19:42, 9 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I believe my last pic choice was the better choice for first pic of the article but i put a new one that shows Wukong complete body in a dramatical depiction against the moon.--Andres rojas22 (talk) 01:00, 10 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Your second choice is much better. Thank you for adding it to the page. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 01:08, 10 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, I disagree with the pic provided by Andres rojas22. My argument on why the new depiction you provided is inaccurate, is because the Japanese depiction puts Sun Wukong, an originally Chinese cultural character and a patron deity in Buddhist/Chinese beliefs, in a bad light, depicting Sun Wukong as a short, stout, feral and ratlike creature. This is inaccurate (original depictions in Journey to the West puts him as a tall, slender-like figure), and neither is the lunar rabbit canonical nor crucial to the depiction of Sun Wukong. The earlier depiction is more accurate, and shows him in his famous "far-seeing/gazing" pose (where he puts one of his hands slightly above his eyes in a pose believed to survey for upcoming dangers and demons using his magical eyes/demon-detection vision) that is typical in his statues as depicted classically and in his temples in Hong Kong and Malaysia. Lordadvantine (talk) 23:24, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Weird
When i typed in monkey king into the wikipedia search engine, this article came up. If Hanuman is also known as the monkey king and the most likely influence on this character then why is the search directed here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.161.202.38 (talk) 17:56, 29 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Hanuman is not the Monkey King in the Ramayana, Sugriva is. Sun Wukong is the Monkey King in Journey to the West, and he is known by said name in both eastern and western cultures. There is a redirect at the top of the page pointing towards the Hanuman article. This is sufficient. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 19:52, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Golum?
Would Wu-Kong qualify as a Golum, since he's basically living stone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8:B580:80B:A1C8:D0CF:C789:E6D3 (talk) 05:15, 14 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Not really. A golem is a creature created from clay and animated through Jewish Kabbalah magic. Sun is born from a stone egg that was nurtured by the energies of heaven and earth. The golem has no spirit, is controlled by its creator, and can be killed by removing a section of the Hebrew letters used to animate from its forehead. Sun is a living breathing creature with no such master (Xuanzang didn't create him), he does what he pleases, and he is immortal. The similarities are only superficial. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 18:05, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Waley's influence
I believe that it is highly unlikely that Arthur Waley's translation into English influenced the Japanese Monkey (TV series) given that they had their own Japanese and Chinese sources. A citation is needed if this is to remain. Michitaro (talk) 08:42, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Prototype?
The title Wukong 悟空 was given by the Tang Emperor Dezong to a monk of Tuoba origin who spent 40 years in travels after the scriptures and relics. Any mention of this in the professional literature on the Travel to the West? My source was zh:釋悟空.--Shanghainese.ua (talk) 19:09, 12 March 2016 (UTC)


 * As far as I know, this is the only English language source that mentions the monk. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 00:37, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Removing the In-Universe Tag
I have rewritten the majority of the article's Background section and believe the in-universe tag can now be removed. I will do so in a few days if no major disputes. Laranesight (talk) 16:51, 22 March 2016 (UTC)


 * >>I'll remove the tag: your rewrite is quite NPOV. Besides, it's a bit rude to talk about "in-universe" when talking about religious concepts. Mwenechanga (talk) 17:34, 26 August 2016 (UTC)