Talk:Mont Blanc de Courmayeur

Untitled
On Alps, the second peak is Dufour Peak. French-italian border lies on Mont Blanc summit. Italian second peak is not Mont Blanc de Courmayeur, but Mont Rose. Mont Blanc de Courmayeur is a Mont Blanc sub-peak --87.16.218.93 (talk) 18:35, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * According to IGM maps and according French-Italian agreement about borders, Mont Blanc de Courmayeur is wholly in Italian territory. Please show official sources if you desire to revert.--Shardan (talk) 22:05, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * According to IGN maps (available on http://www.geoportail.fr), Mont Blanc de Courmayeur is on the border (the interrupted line with points show the part of territory that is unclear in historical agreement). I let you a message on italian discussion page, don't do like if you were blind, just to keep the version you prefer ! Gemini1980 (talk) 22:36, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * As we can see on new IGN maps (2006)[[Image:MonteBIANCO.JPG|thumb|right|250px]],  ( positive cooperation between IGM and IGN  on  program ‘’Alpi senza frontiere’’),  the clear Italian zone pointed up on old IGN maps like Comune de Saint Gervais,  is describe  like Mont Blanc Glassier, and that glassier, following international watershed  conventions, is placed into italian territory. Imho, it’s your mind that need to be more open, and as you present yourself to me ( ..I don’t know you), you should be more constructive. I don’t care about your personal attack, it just show to me which kind of person are you, …..and I understand your low level. I don't feed trolls. I’ll not answer to you anymore.--Shardan (talk) 23:08, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You make me laugh, your explication has no sense : no indication of date and moreover, no borderline. Should we just trust your own word ? Sorry, but I'm very not confident with you. But I don't mind, everybody is able to judge. Gemini1980 (talk) 23:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * As a conclusion of the talk and amply demonstrated, the Mont Blanc of Curmayeur is entirely in Italian territory
 * As we can see on new IGN maps (2006)[[Image:MonteBIANCO.JPG|thumb|right|250px]],  ( positive cooperation between IGM and IGN  on  program ‘’Alpi senza frontiere’’),  the clear Italian zone pointed up on old IGN maps like Comune de Saint Gervais,  is describe  like Mont Blanc Glassier, and that glassier, following international watershed  conventions, is placed into italian territory. Imho, it’s your mind that need to be more open, and as you present yourself to me ( ..I don’t know you), you should be more constructive. I don’t care about your personal attack, it just show to me which kind of person are you, …..and I understand your low level. I don't feed trolls. I’ll not answer to you anymore.--Shardan (talk) 23:08, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You make me laugh, your explication has no sense : no indication of date and moreover, no borderline. Should we just trust your own word ? Sorry, but I'm very not confident with you. But I don't mind, everybody is able to judge. Gemini1980 (talk) 23:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * As a conclusion of the talk and amply demonstrated, the Mont Blanc of Curmayeur is entirely in Italian territory
 * As a conclusion of the talk and amply demonstrated, the Mont Blanc of Curmayeur is entirely in Italian territory

First ascent
Concerning the "first ascent" of the mont Blanc de Courmayeur, I am a bit confused. The notesin this article and the french version say that it was made by Clissold and his guides on august 22th 1820 according to Brown, T. G. and de Beer, G. The First Ascent of Mont Blanc, 1957, p. 14 and  Alpine Journal, vol. XXV, p. 620. This date is not possible because Clissold made the ascent of mont Blanc by the Grands Mulets on the 18th august, as it is narrated in CLISSOLD, Frederick.'' Narrative of an ascent to the summit of Mont Blanc, august 18th, 1822. With an appendix, upon the sensations experienced at great elevations''. London, Rivington and Cochran, 1823. It is absolutely not plausible, that they came back 4 days later to the summit of mont Blanc. It is however possible, that they went to the mont Blanc de Courmayeur on the 18th, from the summit of the mont Blanc. I don't have access to the english text, but there is here a french traduction of it, which says that they stayed 3 hours in the vicinity of the mont Blanc summit, before going down by the ascent way. I don't see any indication that they went to the mont-Blanc de Courmayeur (let's say it takes at least 1/2 h to get there and back). So I would be curious if there is any precision (or an other source) in the book of Graham and de Beer.

Is seems however that the summit was certainly explored before the 1877 ascent of the peuterey ridge by Eccles and Payot : in  Alphonse Favre Recherches géologiques dans les parties de la Savoie, du Piémont et de la Suisse voisines du Mont-Blanc  Volume 2, V. Masson et Fils, 1867, p.21, note 1 : "D'après les renseignements donnés par un guide qui m'inspire grande confiance, il paraîtrait que les roches du mont-Blanc de Courmayeur contiennent de l'amphibolite dans un état voisin de la diorite."

And maybe, the first ascent (in fact a descent) was made by Paccard et Balmat in 1786 after their first ascent of mont Blanc, if we believe Saussure : (Douglas William Freshfield, Louise Plan "Horace-Bénédict de Saussure" Slatkine, 1989 p.192-193 « De la cime on peut descendre par une pente douce du côté de la vallée d'Aoste et arriver à des rochers qui s'élèvent en bec aigu (le mont Blanc de Courmayeur). Ils cherchèrent là un abri pour y coucher, mais le vent était partout également fort et froid. ». Hadrien (talk) 11:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree it is odd, but unless you can provide a reliable reference that states that Eccles et al made the first ascent in 1877 I'm afraid we must believe the Alpine Journal, and Brown and de Beer (I only have August 1822, no specific date). They are reliable sources; your approach, saying that Clissold et al could not have made the ascent, is, I'm afraid, WP:OR. Ericoides (talk) 16:46, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that your references are reliable, and maybe they have other sources or comments from Clissold. In the french translation, (( p.230) there is a paragraphe : "Je m'assis sur la pointe d'un rocher qui s'élève vers l'angle du côté de Courmayeur, pour contempler la face abrupte de la montagne du côté méridional, et pour prendre, à l'aide de mes guides, des échantillons de cette même roche" (if you cannot read french I can translate) ; In the context it seems clear to me that this rock is very close to the summit, and is the "Rocher de la Tourette" (see the picture). But this is my interpretation, and maybe the translation is not very good. And anyway it is now clear to me that the mont Blanc de Courmayeur have been visited before 1877, at least for geological reasons. My last point is that, according to Saussure (quoting Paccard), Balmat and Paccard may have visited the mont Blanc de Courmayeur in 1786 : " From the top it is possible to descend the gentle slope on the Val d'Aosta side and reach some rocks which rise in a sharp crest [the Mont Blanc de Counnayeur]. He looked there for a possible sleeping-place, but the wind was everywhere equally strong and cold. "(Douglas W. Freshfield The life of Horace Benedict de Saussure, London, Edward Arnold, 1920, ). Would you consider this as a reliable reference ? I know very well what "original work" is, but in the case of moutaineering history, the books are often written by non-professional "historians", which are not always very rigorous, do not always go back to original sources, and repeat not so uncommonly mistakes from previous books. So i am a bit cautious. Finally, if you are interested in that kind of questions, could you look at my comments on the Grand Pilier d'Angle ? Hadrien (talk) 08:21, 26 October 2010 (UTC)



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