Talk:Montenegrins/Archive 3

Resources
How come that the main resources is taken from a web site which is called "Serbian land of Montenegro". How can we take this web site as relevant? Especially that all citations is considered about some "serbian" origin of Montenegrins and saying about how Montenegrin nation was "made" in 20th century. Rave92 (talk) 20:28, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Historically accurate or not, it still provides us with the Serbian POV of Montenegro. Do you honestly suggest we use a website that is pro-Montenegrin? Doing so will just lead to further POV. Using both viewpoints allow for a neutral look at history. --Prevalis (talk) 23:09, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Hah, so let's just use Pro Serbian resource then? How come they can use only pro-Serbian sources on their articles about Serbs, about Croats, only Montenegrins need to hear everyone's point of view? Anyway the worst part is that there isn't ANY Pro Montenegrin resource on that article used. It said that Montenegrins were saying that they are Serbs until 20th century and gave the source to "Serb land of Montenegro", which mentions only 20th century, not before it. Also, those facts like how people declared them self shouldn't be from either pro Montenegrin or pro Serbian web site. Rave92 (talk) 11:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Then find a neutral, independent source that states majority of Montenegrin's consider themselves separate from Serbs, if you are so convinced that's the case. (Buttons (talk) 18:20, 29 May 2009 (UTC)}

Sure, we can try, but until that time to delete the claiming that Montenegrins were Serbs because of non relevant source. Even though I don't think that official documents say otherwise in census in Kingdom of Montenegro (where children learned in school that they are Serbs-what a propaganda eh?) and irrelevance as politic was pro Serbian, why wouldn't census be a lie. The real census is one in 1991 and 2003. But anyhow, let's say that Montenegrins declared them self like that in beginning of 20th century, where is the prove of before 20th century as article claims? Anyway: http://img492.imageshack.us/img492/7082/dozicrakocevicvuisicjanketicmo.gif

Pay attention to "Race or people"

Rave92 (talk) 19:12, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Like it or not, evidence of a separate "Montenegrin" race is next to non-existent. The greater part of the Academic community not to mention historical texts accept the theory that Montenegrins are a regional designation for Serbs from Montenegro just as Serbs from Šumadija are called 'Šumadinci' or Serbs from Vojvodina are called 'Vojvodjani' etc etc. Spare us the "Serbian propaganda" they supposedly taught in the 20th century. Get real and start contribution something useful to these article's, if not then don't post at all. Or are you going to continue vandalizing articles on Wikipedia trying to (in vain) alter historical and present day facts for your own self satisfaction? (Buttons (talk) 22:14, 29 May 2009 (UTC))

Which Academic community, SANU xD? Yeah, Šumadinci, Vojvođani, expect none of those haves a country, it own culture, history etc... It's funny how some nationalist Serbs (not all Serbs) want to present just their option as only valid and contribution to the Wikipedia. Your satisfaction of stealing Montenegrin history is well known. I just gave you an evidence how people declared them self and you still claim of non evidence? To spare you of Serbian propaganda. Tell me what was written in elementary school books during the rule of King Nikola. If that isn't propaganda that I don't know what it is. Also it's interesting that only people which claim to be Serbs edit and vandalize Montenegrin articles. Just them, how come? Rave92 (talk) 22:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Nationalist Serbs? Says the guy who's editing....pardon vandalizing, historical Serb figures as being Montenergin while sources indicate they are Serbs nationally and Montenegrin regionally, talk about self insecurity.... Your so called source is a immigration sheet of some dozen individuals to the US, not the greatest reference to validate a supposed ancient ethnicity... surely you could do better than that... maybe not. Your so short on sources you "Montenergins" had to steal the Serbian language word for word and rebrand it as Montenegrin... whats next me speaking American? Final warning, desist vandalizing these articles or I will involve the Admins. (Buttons (talk) 22:49, 30 May 2009 (UTC))
 * Informally, American English is called American in informal speech. American English is an attempt to separate English in America from "true" English, and due to many localisms can be considered a separate language. Hell, it's grammar isn't the same as standard English. As for the case in Montenegrin, there are many words used not generally found elsewhere in ex-Yugoslavia, as well as other words not generally used in the Serbian language but rather the Croatian and Italian languages, for example. --Prevalis (talk) 01:07, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Now look, if Montenegrin doesn't exist, as per Buttons argument, then WHY do 100,000+ people declare it their mother tongue in Montenegro? <--IN 2003, BEFORE THE 2006 REFERENDUM! --Prevalis (talk) 01:07, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * WHY do 20,000+ Montenegrins in the diaspora say their mother tongue is Montenegrin or that they declare that they speak it, like myself and many of my Montenegrin friends, not for political reasons but for cultural and traditional reasons. We may be a diaspora but we are still united as Montenegrins, speaking the Montenegrin language. --Prevalis (talk) 01:07, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * And Buttons, stop criticizing (<-- an Americanism, not criticising like in standard English) Rave on his English skills. His knowledge of English is quite superb if you asked me. I'd love to see you try writing in Serbian / Montenegrin / Yugoslavian / Serbo-Croatian / whatever the heck you wannna (<-- American slang, yet another Americanism ;) call it. --Prevalis (talk) 01:07, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Which source? Srpska Crna Gora? That sheet shows how people wrote for them self, as I at least showed an example. I can show a lot more proves but they ain't in English and can't really be used here. Steal your language? See a movie which takes action before Vuk's reform of language, and see how Serbs spoke in those times, and how Montenegrins spoke. Also you are stealing our history the whole time, so you are very familiar with that word. It's silly to mentions Americans here. It is an immigrate nation, English brought their language with them as same with Australia or Brazil (Portuguese). You never immigrated in Montenegro as it was rather opposite. Historical Serbs only in Serb books, how come? You are vandalizing Montenegrin articles, better try to improve a Serbian ones. Rave92 (talk) 20:12, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * A movie you say? Ahh...proof at last!...unbelievable. And which "more porves" as you call them, do you have? Not in English eh? Well what language are they in my friend? And further is that source reliable? For all we know it could just be "Montenegrin" propaganda... If your phantom language does exist why don't you go back to speaking it then? No matter, our discussion ends here. Clearly no point in arguing with a delusional being such as as yourself. (Buttons (talk) 03:36, 3 June 2009 (UTC))

Yes, a movie in your own production. Watch Zona Zamfirova. Proves are in Montenegrin language. Montenegrin propaganda? How come that Croats are not right, Bosnians are not right, Macedonians are not right, Montenegrin are not right etc... but just what SANU says, it's right? This is English Wikipedia and I will speak in English here. Phantom language, haha please you are accusing me for a propaganda and at the same time you say that my language doesn't exist as well as the nation. Yeah let's end a discussion, as you see just your point of view, nothing new. Rave92 (talk) 15:55, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Image
So first, I won't go into did someone declared them officially that they are Montenegrin. Most of persons included there is no such document (especially for those before 19th century) which some of them don't know when he was born/died, not to mention how they declared. Under the image, there is a message that people on picture not necessarily are declared them self as Montenegrin but also which come from Montenegro, that is, "Montenegrin origin", and have openly presented it. Mihailo I of Duklja - from Doclea/Duklja, todays Montenegro Constantine Bodin- Doclea Petar II Petrović-Njegoš - from Montenegro also a ruler of Montenegro Nikola I Mirkov Petrović-Njego - King of Montenegro Ivan I Crnojević - ruler of Zeta, todays Montenegro Captain Krsto Todorov-Zrnov Popović - was one of the leaders of 1919 Christmas Uprising in Montenegro against Serbian dynasty Karađorđević Marko Miljanov Popović - was a warrior and writer from Montenegro Helen of Montenegro "(born Princess Jelena Petrović-Njegoš of Montenegro) (8 January 1873 - 28 November 1952) was the daughter of King Nikola I Petrović-Njegoš of Montenegro and his wife, Milena Vukotić. As the result of Jelena's marriage to King Victor Emmanuel III of Italy on 24 October 1896 converting to Catholicism, she became Queen of Italy when her husband acceded to the throne in 1900." Aleksandar Lekso Saičić - participated in WWI, and born/lived in Montenegro Sekula, historically more notable as Sekule Drljević (Montenegrin Cyrillic: Секулa or Секуле Дрљевић), (1884 – 1945) was a Montenegrin politician, lawyer, and author. Michael Anthony Stepovich - his family immigrated from Montenegro Mirko Vučinić - Montenegrin national football team player Predrag "Peđa" Mijatović (Cyrillic: Предраг Мијатовић - Пеђа) (born 19 January 1969 in Titograd, SR Montenegro, Yugoslavia) is a Montenegrin former football player and former sports director of Real Madrid. He is considered one of Yugoslavia's best players of the 1990s. During his career his position on the pitch was striker. Dejan Savićević (Cyrillic: Дејан Савићевић) (born September 15, 1966 in Titograd, Montenegro, SFR Yugoslavia), is a Montenegrin former football player and the current president of the Montenegro FA. Milla Jovovich - her father is from Montenegro
 * It just crossed my mind to check Milla's official site, and here it says: "was born December 17, 1975 in Kyiv (Kiev), Ukraine to father Bogdanovitch Jovovich (Serbian doctor)". I don't know if it's OK to have her in the image, since her father declared himself as Serb.--RockyMM (talk) 20:31, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe he worked in Serbia as a doctor, and that's why he is defined as Serbian doctor? Also, the discussion about Mila's heritage was already discussed and it's foolish to repeat it. Here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Milla_Jovovich, and even IF she or hers father didn't declared as Montenegrin, none one can deny of her Montenegrin origin. Rave92 (talk) 22:04, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Capitanich (originally probably Kapitanić) descends from the first Montenegrins who settled in Chaco and created Colonia La Montenegrina, the biggest Montenegrin colony in South America. He was an academic before entering politics.

Rave92 (talk) 18:14, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You saved me from having to explain the reason why the image is not appropriate here. Most of the figures present in your image are self declared Serbs not Montenegrin's where their roots are from really makes no difference if they identify themselves as Serbs. Post images only of people who consider themselves Montenegrin nationality. Examples Milo Đukanović, Ranko Krivokapić etc. If you continue to post images of Serbs on this page not to mention editing historical Serb figures as being Montenegrin I will involve a Administer. Last warning. (Buttons (talk) 22:29, 30 May 2009 (UTC))

Administrator is already involved, but we can see a typical talk. Where they declared them self as a Serbs? In a books? Please... I gave a "citation need" and none to fill it with a proper reference. Serbs idea of making Montenegrin nation since 1945 is so typical. You have an example of Njegos, he mentions Serbs, but in next page says us Montenegrins. That section of image is done on Polish example where it has self declared and origins from Poland. And don't treat me with administrator, if you are blind and didn't check message, Admin is already involved, and if I get banned, you get too. Rave92 (talk) 23:22, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You have an example of Njegos, he mentions Serbs, but in next page says us Montenegrins. Good point, because for Njegoš: Montenegrins = Serbs. Just one illustration among countless others - The Mountain Wreath, verses 453-475 : Tomaš Martinović tells the story about a Montenegrin (i.e. Serb) woman named Ruža, who run away with a Muslim named Mujo Alić. In Tomaš's story, the man who first saw Ruža running away with Mujo regarded that as an abduction, so he shouted, "Montenegrins have been led off for slaves!" Tomaš concludes his story with the obvious fact that Ruža was not abducted: "[...] but who would dare even to imagine a Serbian woman marrying a Turk?" We see here how Njegoš in his poetry interchangeably uses the terms Serb and Montenegrin: the same character, Ruža, was simultaneously designated as both Montenegrin and Serb. This is nothing unusual in Njegoš's poetry, but what is really almost unbelivable is that some people just can't or don't want to see that. VVVladimir (talk) 16:13, 2 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, this proves the point that Montenegrins =/ Serbs. He (Njegos) in his texts uses the word "Montenegrin" in a national sense, while "Serbian" in a religious one. Case in point within your Gorski Vijenac paraphrasing, "But who would dare even to imagine a Serbian woman marrying a Turk?" This can be translated into today's understanding: "Who would dare even to imagine an Orthodox woman marrying a Muslim?" This "Turk" in Gorski Vijenac was flatly no Turk in the ethnic/national sense, but instead a Slavic Montenegrin of the Islamic Religion, and this girl is no Serb in the ethnic sense, yet simply a Slavic Montenegrin of the Orthodox Christian religion. This is nothing unusual in Njegos's poetry, or in Montenegrin culture whatsoever during that period. The etymology of these terms can be traced through history, Turk being a synonym for Muslim in Montenegro due to the Osman's Turkish empire bringing Islam to Montenegro, and Serb being a synonym for Orthodox due to the Nemanjic's Serbian Empire bringing Christian Orthodoxy to Montenegro. It is kind of unbelievable that some people people can't realize this simple fact. 128.200.33.111 (talk) 01:31, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Orthodoxy, or earlier Christianity of Greek-eastern rite before the East-West Schism, was widely present in Montenegro before Nemanjic, so he could not be the one who brought it to Montenegro. The identification 'Serb = Orthodox' is present only among the Serbs, and is applied only to the Serbs. Russians and Bulgarians were never called Serbs, although they are Orthodox. The Muslims were indeed identified with Turks. VVVladimir (talk) 22:12, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, people unfortunately tried to make Serbs and Montenegrin under one nation but that just wasn't possible. When other nations upraise their nationalism at end of 19th century, we were trying to hide it, but that doesn't mean Njegos wasn't a Montenegrin. He said for him self that he is a Montenegrin. Serbs learn in schools that he is Montenegrin. But I also agree he says about Serbs. Now there are some thinking that was a synonymy for orthodox religion, which is kind of logic when you see for e.g. Srpska nova godina (pravoslavna Nova godina) etc... of course I don't wanna argue what he though as we can only guess but to claim that Njegos wasn't a Montenegrin, is silly at the same level as claim that Tito created our nation. Rave92 (talk) 20:01, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Eh... please, add your text under mine so it is readable. Anyway I know that the term wasn't known to Greece and Bulgarians, but they also didn't have the influence of Serbia like we did. People were very unliterate at that time and didn't know much about it. Nation isn't something you can find out with your DNA etc... we are the same, we are Slavs but you can't say that Montenegrins didn't exist etc... like some try to say. People just finally want to be what they are, not what others want them to be. Rave92 (talk) 22:46, 3 June 2009 (UTC)


 * VVVladimir - You are incorrect, after the schism in 1054, Duklja was under the Latin-rite, thus King Mihailo being crowned and proclaimed "King of the Slavs" by Pope Gregory VII around 1077. Until Nemanja attacked and annexed it in 1186, forcibly converting the Catholic slavs to orthodoxy as well as exiling the greeks and destroying many cities. The identification of serb = orthodox is only present in historical documents from Montenegro, several hundred years after Nemanja's reign. Other peoples viewed the term "serb" in other ways, as the romans viewed it as a serf or peasant, and others as "Serbar" or a raider. 72.211.205.232 (talk) 06:40, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Historically, the term "Serb" before the creation of Yugoslavia meant follower of the Serbian Orthodox Church in Montenegro. Yes, Rave, you are correct in saying that Duklja remained in the Latin Rite, and this is historically seen during the time of birth of Stefan Nemanja, who was baptised as a Roman Catholic. However, Rave, you did forget that there was a significant Orthodox minority in Duklja then. You will find Montenegro switching back and forth from the Latin Rite to the Eastern Rite back to the Latin Rite only to permanently remain in the Eastern Rite during the rule of the Crnojević dynasty. However, by then, most of Montenegro was Eastern Orthodox. --Prevalis (talk) 18:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd actually like to make a note, but don't take into any real consideration. Serbia has historically been influenced by Montenegrins.

--Prevalis (talk) 18:53, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Stefan Nemanja, a Dioclean in origin, conquered all of the so-called Serbian lands, including his fatherland, Dioclea. Founded the Nemanjid dynasty, which would come to rule over a great portion of the Balkan Peninsula under Czar Dušan.
 * Miloš Obilić, a Zetan in origin, greatest Serbian hero, killed in Battle of Kosovo in 1389 after stabbing the Sultan.
 * Karađorđe Petrović, Montenegrin in origin, first-generation Montenegrin born in Serbia, started the First Serbian Uprising against the Ottoman Empire. Considered a national hero in Serbia. Founded the Karađorđević dynasty, which ruled over Serbia throughout the 19th century.
 * House of Obrenovići, originially from Bratonožići in Montenegro, ruled over Serbia also throughout the 19th century.
 * Vuk Stefanović Karadžić, first generation Montenegrin born in Serbia, "reformed" the Serbian language. The original Serbian language was meant to resemble the language spoken in Montenegro, however, because of nationalistic reasons, modern Serbian now resembles the Serbian spoken in northern Serbia.

If Montenegrin rulers had tough of their own national identity, not someone's else, we could be one of biggest nations on the Balkans ;). Rave92 (talk) 19:07, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * To add some more on the religious situation in Duklja and Zeta, even among the Catholic priests of the Bar Archbishopric an Orthodox influence was recorded: they married and wore beards untill 1199 (i.e. for almost 150 years after the schism), when these practices were forbidden and suppressed by their superiors. Generally, it might be said that, prior to Nemanja, the Catholicism was dominant in towns, and the Orthodoxy in rural areas (at least this was recorded for the region of Bar, a prominent center of Duklja).


 * Catholic Slavs and their church organisations in Montenegro have an uninterrupted presence since times before Nemanja to the present. In fact it was during the reign of Vukan, Nemanja's son, that the Bar Archbishopric gained its independence from the Dubrovnik Archbishopric, mostly because of the efforts of Vukan himself. He was also recognized as king by the Pope, and became a Catholic himself (of course this doesn't mean that all the people he ruled over instantaneously became Catholics). The Archbishop of Bar carries the title of Primas Serbiae to this day. So much about "forcibly converting the Catholic slavs to orthodoxy".


 * The identification between Serb and Orthodox is a characteristic of all Serbs (in Serbia, Montenegro, Herzegovina, Bosnia, etc), even today among some older people. The phenomenon of identifing ethnicity with religion is not recorded among other Orthodox peoples, as far as I know. I'm not sure what was the purpose of mentioning in this context of those racist "etymologists" who connected the old Slavic tribal name Serb (related to West Slavic Sorb) with the Latin servus (maybe an attempted indirect insult to Serbs?).


 * All in all, the existence of the identification between Serb and Orthodox can not be logically used as an argument against the identification between Montenegrin and Serb, which is present in Njegoš's poetry. As Rave said, we don't know what he thought, but there's that what he wrote.


 * The existence of the strong and proud Montenegrin identity is well known and can't be denied, but it usually wasn't contrasted with the Serb identity until recently. The line between Serbs and Montenegrins cannot be clearly drawn in the ethnical sense, as we can also see from Prevalis's note. However, identities change and develope, so it is pointless to tell someone that he or she should be of some ethnic identity that they don't feel like being. All should feel free to be whatever they want to be and let others be what they want to be :) VVVladimir (talk) 20:29, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree (especially with the last sentence) but it's stupid to say that for e.g. Njegos wasn't a Montenegrin :-). I just said there are theories which people more and more agree with it, that it was used for synonym of orthodox religion, but nothing can denied that he was in fact a Montenegrin, not only him, but everyone else on the picture. Rave92 (talk) 23:06, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok, as for that synonymy, just to make one thing quite clear: the Serb identity of the Serbs from Montenegro, today as well as in the past, is not some reduced identity limited only to the belonging to the Serbian Orthodox Church (i.e. they are not Serbs only in the religious sense of the word). That identity is equally complete as the Serb identity of the Serbs from Šumadija, Herzegovina, Kosovo, Lika, etc. VVVladimir (talk) 17:24, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * VVVladimir - That statement is faulty due to the fact that before Rashka, the same state was called "Serbia", and naturally the inhabitants of this realm called themselves Serbians, later on this became strongly connected with Orthodoxy. Meanwhile Duklja or Zeta, never called itself Serbia, and was not connected to Rashka/Serbia in the national sense until Serbia annexed it. Thus, you are incorrect in your theory due to the fact that Serbs in Sumadija, Kosovo and Serbia traditionally had a nationalistic serb identity, while slavs outside of this realm(Montenegro, Hercegovina) traditionally had a religious serb identity, and in Montenegro's case their adopted a nationalstic Montenegrin identity, which makes logical sense.

These two identites (Serb & Montenegrin) are indeed contrasted and clashed in history, namely in 1918 where the zelenasi had an uprising against the pro-serbian Bjelasi, resulting in thousands of deaths as well as Serbian military involvement within Montenegro, and the illegalization of usage of Montenegrin symbols enforced by the Serbian government. Additionally around 1913 when King Nikola was pressured by Serbia to have a Serbian general command his army, concluding in many disagreements caused by differing nationalistic interests and the eventual quitting of the serb general.

Prevalis, many of the people you mention have questionable Montenegrin origin. Stefan Nemanja for instance, although born in Montenegro, his father positively was not from Duklja, instead came from either Zahumlje or Raska, while his mother was possibly of Doclean stock, possibly with a connection to the Vojislavljevics. And if you are familiar with Montenegrin culture, blood is passed through the father's side. Therefore making him non-native of Duklja/Montenegro.

Obilic is of questionable geographic origin, if you could cite information as to where it states he came from Zeta put it here. Obrenovici had distant origins in Montenegro, along with Karadzic, who was actually born Stefanovic.

All of these men are not exactly prime examples of Montenegrins culturally nor identity-wise. Thus its unfair to use them in order to figuratively chain Montenegro to Serbia, although they indeed were of Montenegrin stock and are worth mentioning. This instance can be compared to the Arvanites in Greece, who although were of Albanian origin, identified themselves as Greeks and helped bring independence to Greece from the Ottomans.

Also VVVladimir, there is no historical evidence to suggest that the population had any sort of orthodox population before Nemanja's conquest, it's only natural that the people were forcibly converted, as others were being exiled and killed.76.175.236.73 (talk) 09:07, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

76.175.., you're incorrect. From the Midle Ages point of view, entities such as Duklja/ Zeta and Rashka (Serbia) were not true states. So we cannot exactly equate them as medieval representatives of mdern Montenegro and Serbia, respectively, because nationalism was a 19th/20th century phenomenon. As for Catholicism in Duklja - this was limited to the coast. The fact that King Mihailo became recognised by the Pope dos not mean that he acknowldeged that there was an ethnic difference to inland Serbs in Raska, but it was political. In those times, to be recognised as a true 'king', one either needed to be recognised by the Pope or the Byzantine Emperor. At that time, he was at war with the Byzantines, so naturally he turned to Rome. Even when bar was raised to an archbishopric, Catholicism was limited to a few centres on the coast. By far the majority of people were Orthodox in Montenegro, and have always been so, irrespective of what the 'official' position might have been in history. When Nemanya expanded into Zeta, it wasn't a war between Serbs and proto-Montenegrins, but a clash of royal families over the right to rule and gain the taxes- the Nemanyaden versus the remnant of the Vojislavljevici, with see-sawing support from Byzantines and Hungary, and local pro-Byzantine and anti-Byzantine factions. All politics, and nothing truly reflective of a 'national struggle'. In fact, Stefan Voislav was called a 'Serb' as well as the more general "Slav" by the Byzantines, is he not ? Yes, Nemanya sanctioned Orthodoxy as the official religion, but again, this was due to political motives. Anyway, Nemanya's father was supposed to from Travunia anyway, descended from Mihailjo's branch. Similarly, earlier, Constantine Bodin invaded Raska and ousted the local Slav ruling family becuase they were pro-Byzantine, whilst Bodin was a Normanist. It is hard to guage what the average person felt about his, because back then there was no 'nationalism', and the average peasant's loyalty lay mostly to his villages and family clan- that's why it was hard for so-called "kings" (anywhere in Middle Age Europe) to really exert their power. The history of the two are inextricably linked. This does not have to threaten your sense of a unique Montenegrin identity, because obviously there are also differences Hxseek (talk) 07:47, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What is dangerous is when some people, from either side, misinterpret medieval history, or any history for that matter, and use their's conclusion on the topic as the only valid one and as a fact. History must be view with critical point, taking many views into account. And there is no one truth when history is in question. There is only one's interpetation. For example, saying "it's only natural that the people were forcibly converted" is more that incorrect. Such exlamation other people may use as a fact, when it is only an assumption, able it farfetched. Please, refrain from such contraversial statements. --RockyMM (talk) 10:48, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

You must stop this
If you try to falcificate the "ethnicity" of dead people, ask Predrag Mijatovic, man is still alive, thanks God and declarate as a SERB! Wikipedia MUST STOP with falshe informations! If you try to push Kosovo thing stop with this! Also king Nikola Petrovic incorporated in the pic said "Let us go Montenegrins to win back our Bar, our Serbian Bar, our sea, our Serbian sea"... or "Montenegrins in the name of bread and Serbian milk"... Check the historical documents! He never called Montenegrins as a nation, but regionally called that way SERBS! Milla Jovovich grandparents live in Belgrade (I dunno are they alive still, anyway)... and they don't declarate as "Montenegrins"... Such nation doesn't exist! My grandmother is from Montenegro but I am 100% Serb... Slobodan Milosevic parents are from Montenegro as well as Radovan Karadzic himself... Think about historical facts... Or you like when someone refer to wikipedia always say, it's a unsecure... let us find something valid... Hope you don't want such reputation! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.86.14.246 (talk) 17:02, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll answer him in Serbian, please do not delete this.
 * Ne možeš nikome nametati kako se neko oseća. Romi sa Kosova, Makedonije i juga Srbije se osećaju kao Egipćani, pa ih svi tako zovu kako oni žele, iako malo veze sa Egiptom imaju. Bošnjaci žele tako da ih svi zovu iako su bili Muslimani pre 20 godina. Bez obzira na to da li su u pravu ili ne, da li imaju istorijsko pokriće ili ne, šta ti osećaš prema tome, ako neko kaže da je od crnogorskog naroda, da se oseća Crnogorcem, kada 43% stanovnika Crne Gore kažu da su Crnogorci, to je sasvim dovoljno da i mi ostali ih tako zovemo. Nadam se da sad jasnije.--RockyMM (talk) 14:22, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Nije sad jasnije... mogu oni da se deklarisu i kao Tunguzijci ili Murupejci ili kako god, ali istorijske cinjenice su istorijske cinjenice... Uostalom, ako se oni tako deklarisu, da zanemarimo i ono "ako se ne izjasnis kao Crnogorac na popisu racunaj da si izgubio posao!".... ne smeju se u tzv Crnogorce stavljati ljudi poput kralja Nikole Petrovica ili Mile Jovovic koji su se licno ili cije se roditelji izjasnjavaju ili su se izjasnjavali kao Srbi!!! Nadam se da je sad jasnije sta sam mislio? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.101.208.122 (talk) 14:48, 9 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Ako ti nije jasnije, mi ti tu ne mozemo nista. Vase istorijske cinjenice, i propagande kao da ce neko da izgubi posao (izgleda da je 32% izgubilo posao u CG). A sta ti mislis o Crnogorcima pokazuje nazivajuci ih tkz. i sl. nazivi. Po vasim istorijskim cinjenicama prvi covjek je i bio Srbin. Pusti se ti Crnogoraca, i uredjuj clanak o Srbima. Prave Srbe i briga velika za ovo, jer ovo najvise iritira ljude u Srbiji koji imaju porijeklo iz CG, i pokusavaju da budu veci Srbi od samih Srba. Ali najgore je sto niko to njima ne brani, ali bar mogu da puste ljude koji su u CG da kazu ko su i sta su.  Rave92 (talk) 17:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Language issue
Can we get a consensus about this? My personal standpoint is that Montenegrins speak Serbian and Montenegrin, according to last census data. So, both languages should be included in info box. Please make your opinion about this propsal below. --RockyMM (talk) 18:15, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

"Montengrins"
Half of the famous "Montenegrins" considered themselves to be Serbs, (Marko Miljanov, Njegos, King Nicholas)there is no Montenegrin nation, Montenegrins are Serbs, Montenegro is land of Serbian people just like Serba and Old Serbia are, Serbs are not people from Serbia, Serbs are tribe of Slavs which immigrated to Balkans. If under "Montenegrins" you consider people who lived in Country Montenegro, then it makes sense, but "Montenegrin" nationality is just a communist propaganda, term "Montenegrin" always meant "Serb who lives in Montenegro"

Just let me quote some famous "Montenegrins"

"In Montenegro live only true and pure Serbs who speak Serbian" (Montenegrin geography textbook from 1911) "Tell the Austrian representative to tell his Emperor, if God would turn him around to do good, to let Serbdom unite: Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Serbia and Old Serbia, and let that become the Serb Kingdom" - Marko Miljanov

Correct lyrics of the "Oh bright dawn of May" which were blanked out by DPS.

Ој јунаштва свјетла зоро, Мајко наша Црна Горо! На твојим се врлетима, Разби сила душманима. Једина си за слободу Ти остала﻿ српском роду. Дат ће Бог и света Мати Да се једном све поврати. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.188.32.46 (talk) 11:22, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Infobox gives a bad impression of Montenegrins
The infobox here, one of the first things a reader sees, gives a rather bad first impression of Montenegrins. There's only one woman among the twelve famous Montengrins in the infobox, which of course will lead the reader to wonder whether the position of women in Montenegrin society is that bad? If there are famous Montenegrin women, and I am sure they are, I would strongly suggest making sure that at least 25% of the famous persons featured with pictures in the infobox are female. The current infobox leaves the reader wondering about how equal Montenegrin society is, and that is probably not what anyone wants the infobox to do.Jeppiz (talk) 13:33, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Montenegrin Identity
I am an ethnic Montenegrin or Doclean (archaism). The people in central Serbia are Rascians (archaism), the guys in Vojvodina are Vojvodjans, the guys in north Bosnia are Krajisniks. We all belong to people that are known as Serbs, and have the same culture, tradition, language, historical kings and rulers.

Montenegro was the only free region that was still under Serbian rule in the times of Ottoman occupation (350 years). The repopulation of the war depopulated territories of south Hungary (now Slawonia and Vojvodina), Bosnia, Rascia (now central Serbia), came from Montenegro. 80% of all Serbs are of Montenegrin descendancy, 10% are Serbs of south Serbia, 10% are integrated immigrants.

Serbia and Montenegro, or better Rascia and Doclea are old stubborn regions, which had 2 royal dynasties in the 19th century, the Karadjordjevic (Rascia) and Petrovic (Doclea). The problem was not, should the lands unite or not, the problem was, who should take the throne.

Real ethnic Montenegrins, are Serbs, they are "more" Serb than any other Serbs, cause they are their ancestors. Montenegrins by nationality are all sorts of ethnic groups that are citizens of Montenegro. Same with any other nation.

- Montenegrin, without an identity crisis


 * (P.S. example: ethnic Austrians are Germans, speaking the Upper German language, declaring themselves as Austrians) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.191.252.213 (talk) 18:43, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

1919 "unification"
The article reads:
 * After the violent Christmas Uprising (1919), which saw fighting between the pro-Petrovic guerillas and the Karadjordjevic troops, there was significant opposition to unification with Serbia although a majority of Montenegrin people were in favour of unification.

When will some people realise that the events of late 1918 were not a unification? It was 100% absorption. Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and its successor Serbia and Montenegro were unifications albeit downsizing from their previous condition (a larger Yugoslavia) but the two entities continued a separate existence within a shared state. "Fighting between the pro-Petrovic guerillas and the Karadjordjevic troops" is not the recipe for unification since the Petrović dynasty should still have ruled Montenegro if not assume a new agreed central role from the state capital; Montenegro in turn should have existed alongside Serbia, not be an entity within a country that is called Serbia and one in which the legal authority of Montenegro has fled. So regardless of what a majority of Montenegrin people might have thought, what they got was no more a "unification" than so-called German unification when the Berlin wall went down. Propagandists to this day hide behind the unofficial short forms of the names West and East Germany to obscure the fact that the Democratic Republic of Germany (east) was ousted and its leadership fled whilst the Federal Republic (west) expanded its own territory with no change whatsoever to the government structure. Had East Germany not have included the name Germany in its title, people may have been more aware of this. Yet with Montenegro reduced to almost nothing in 1919 much to the rancour of the proponents of the Montenegrin monarchy, I wish to know on what grounds anybody can declare the absorption of the land into an existing "Kingdom of Serbia" a unification. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 05:53, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

tallest nation
http://med1nuc11.dfc.unifi.it/linnets/troe/texts/p8.htm

Error in date
Under Religion "was ruled by the Venetians for 500 years until 17971". Does anyone have the correct date so it can be fixed?

Errors in famous Montenegrins box
Nikola I Mirkov Petrović-Njegoš, king of Montenegro - ''declared himself as an ethnic Serb of Montenegro, not as explicitly Montenegrin. He is the author of the famous song "Onamo 'namo" also known as the Serbian Marseillaise.''

Marko Miljanov Popović - ''Miljanov wrote that during an attack by the Montenegrin Prince Danilo on the Kuči clan (Miljanov's clan), the Kuči's shouted: "Do not attack your Serb brother, o Montenegrins, may your cheek be black, as it is if you act so against your brother!".  Message to the Austrian ambassador to Montenegro: "Tell that Austrian deputy, to tell his Emperor, should God turn him over to good, to then unite the Serbdom: Bosnia and 'Erzegovina, Montenegro, Serbia and Old Serbia, and to make that the Serb Kingdom. Such statements indicate his ethnic identification as Serb rather than explicitly Montenegrin."''

Krsto Zrnov Popović - ''eventhough an opponent of the Belgrade regime and the dynasty of Karageorgevich which sought to annex Montenegro into one Serb nation, stated the importance of Montenegro in general Serbdom: "Crna Gora ona zemlja đe se čuvala i sačuvala iskra slobode Srbinove / Montenegro the land where the spark of the Serbs freedom was kept and preserved" Krsto Zrnov about Serbdom. Such statements indicate his ethnic identification as Serb rather than explicitly Montenegrin.''

Princess Jelena Petrović-Njegoš of Montenegro - belonged to the Petrovic-Njegos dynasty which traditionaly declared themselves as ethnic Serbs rather than explicitly Montenegrin.

These people should be noted under the section Serbs of Montenegro and not explicitly Montenegrins.


 * I have changed the list to only include those who are shown as identifying as ethnic Montenegrins. I think the problem here is that there are people who strongly identify as being Montenegrin (as in a person living in Montenegro) but may not identify as an ethnic Montenegrin. Perhaps this article's material should be placed in an article called "Ethnic Montenegrins" or "Montenegrins (ethnicity)" while this article titled "Montenegrins" would refer to the citizens of Montenegro who include ethnic Montenegrins, Montenegrin Serbs, Montenegrin Bosniaks, etc.--R-41 (talk) 22:50, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The usual way to do this is to reserve the article Montenegrins for ethnic Montenegrins, and describe the other people also living in Montenegro (Montenegrin Serbs, Montenegrin Albanians etc.) in Demographics of Montenegro. - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 13:33, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The thing is, that the primary topic of Montenegrins is not ethnic Montenegrins, based on history and historiography. Though the Montenegrin nationality first entered use in 1948, the contemporary scholars did not diffuse the word Montenegrins, as it had always denoted a geographical unit (an important note is that until the turn of the 19th century there were two or three main [different] demonyms within Montenegro, used by the inhabitants themselves (also noted in the constitution of 1910): the Highlanders (in the "Seven Hills": Vasojevići, Piperi, etc), the Montenegrins (Old Montenegro), and the Herzegovinians (in Old Herzegovina), and that only after the Kingdom of Montenegro and by World War II, Montenegrins became a widespread demonym for all people in Montenegro. The literary use of Montenegrin is scarcely used to denote the ethnic group, and only after 2006 (Independence of Montenegro).--Z oupan 20:46, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the term Montenegrins is also a demonym. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:21, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Ethnic Montenegrins exist since 1948
Ethnic Montenegrins exist since 1948, all personalities, as well as culture and tradition, preceeding that year cannot be called ethnic Montenegrin, since no such denomination existed, it is true that a lot of what is now considered ethnic Montenegrin developed from cultures that inhabited the same area as they do now, but those culture weren't ethnic Montenegrin nor did they ever describe themselves as solely Montenegrin. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a platform for mythomanical propaganda.


 * This is a horrendous lie.
 * My grandfather is 80 years old and very much alive and he never considered himself anything else but a Montenegrin, just as his father and grandfather did. They didn't consider themselves Serbs. Period.


 * The point is that Montenegrins were not allowed to speak their minds freely in Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Great grandfather of a friend of mine was hanged in 1919 because he didn't want to declare himself as a Serb and swear loyalty to the Karadjordjevic dynasty.


 * There are almost 100 people in Montenegro older than 100 years and some of them witnessed Serbian oppression in 1918-1941.
 * The preiod we are talkning about was not so long ago so you can't spread your false bullshit as you do with the 19th century.

78.155.44.101 (talk) 22:13, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

False 'bullshit' as you the neofascist-youth of Montenegro likes to call it, with no ties to the Montenegrin culture and history as it seems, is not an argument, nor are 'grandpa' stories one. Even Krsto Popović saw himself as an ethnic Serb, and saw Montenegro as a last bastion of Serbdom and spark of its freedom. For the uneducated neofascist 'Montenegrin' youth, Krsto Popović was the hardline supporter of free and independent Kingdom of Montenegro, the leader of the uprising against the union with Belgrade. The people are one, however nations can be plenty, as witnessed among the German people with almost 5 different nations (Swiss Germans, Austrian Germans, Sudeten Germans etc.). Serbian people are by far not 'the Serbs', only a part of the general population, which emigrated from the highlands and settled in the lower areas in the course of time.

Users who are in dispute on infobox inclusion, should this article be about Montenegrins as citizens of Montenegro, or Montenegrins as an ethnicity? Discuss and resolve it
The issue here is the ethnicity one, officially a Montenegrin ethnicity was not prevalent before 1948, and people prior to 1948 there are no records of any significant number of Montenegrin citizens who identified as ethnic Montenegrin. If I am wrong, please present evidence that shows a recognition of a Montenegrin ethnicity prior to the 1940s.

I suggested a bit above that if there is a problem about this article being focused on ethnic Montenegrins, rather than Montenegrin citizens as a whole, that this article could be redesigned to focus on the citizens of Montenegro that could include Montenegrin people who are not ethnic Montenegrins, there are Montenegrin citizens other than ethnic Montenegrins including Serbs, Bosniaks, and Albanians. I have proposed that an article named one of the three possibilities: Ethnic Montenegrins, Montenegrin ethnicity, or Montenegrins (ethnicity) to avoid this dispute between Montenegrins as an ethnicity and Montenegrins as citizens. It is up to you to decide. Should this article be about Montenegrins as an ethnicity as it currently is laid out as? Or should this article be about Montenegrins as in citizens of Montenegro?--R-41 (talk) 03:54, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

Just to make it clear: Mihailo I of Duklja, Constantine Bodin, Petar II Petrović-Njegoš, Nicholas I of Montenegro, Ivan I Crnojević · Krsto Zrnov Popovic, Marko Miljanov and Elena of Montenegro were not ethnic Montenegrins and they never declared as Montenegrins. Montenegrins did not exist until the year 1948, when the communists under the leadership of Josip Broz Tito forced all of the Serbs in Montenegro to declare as "Montenegrins", therefore it is impossible for the above-mentioned people to be "Montenegrins". However, people such as Mirko Vučinić, Nikola Vučević and Milo Đukanović have declared themselves to be ethnic Montenegrins. Therefore, these people should be listed as ethnic Montenegrins in the infobox, not the people who are currently listed as most of the historical figures presently listed are Serbs from Montenegro. If some users (i.e. Navyworth, or to go by his IP address 62.178.104.225) cannot comprehend this, then I suggest this article should be renamed Montenegrins (ethnicity) or Montenegrin people, because the present name of this article makes it sound as if the people in question (i.e. Njegoš, Nicholas I) are ethnic Montenegrins, which they are not.--23 editor (talk) 15:34, 10 July 2012 (UTC)


 * Still no replies. I commented on his talk page. If he pops up with other ip's we should request Semi-protection.--Z oupan 19:16, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, but the annonymous IP address (62.178.104.225) has again reverted my edits. I am not going to undo his/her vandalism because then again I will be accused of edit-warring by some editors, but in the same time I would like to request that this page should be semi-protected from further disruptive editing.--23 editor (talk) 22:14, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The IP was blocked for a month. I've added appropriate tags.--Z oupan 22:44, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's focus on the issue here. I am going to guide everyone here and future users arriving here on the matters here.
 * First, let's start with what we do know for certain. What do we know for certain is that a Montenegrin identity of some sort has existed for centuries and influenced the rise of Montenegrin nationalism based on the view at the very least that Orthodox South Slavic people of Montenegro were culturally distinct from Serbs in neighbouring Serbia, Bosnia, and elsewhere. Another thing we know for certain is that many Serb clans descend from Montenegro. The last thing we know for certain is that there are many people in Montenegro who currently identify as being ethnically Montenegrin.
 * Second, due to the historic confrontational experiences between Montenegrin nationalists versus Serbian nationalists and Yugoslavists, and other cultural-ethnic nationalist disputes, the idea of all the people of Montenegro - or at least all Orthodox South Slavic people, being able to be identified as a single cultural group beyond that of commonly being citizens of Montenegro, is impossible. There is no single "Montenegrin" people beyond "Montenegrins" as referring to citizens, and this article as currently titled appears to be giving ownership of the identity of "Montenegrins" to a particular ethnic group, whilst others who may identify as "Montenegrins" - as in citizens of Montenegrins but not part of that ethnicity are excluded, such as Serbs, Bosniaks, Albanians, and others who are citizens of Montenegro.
 * Third, as per what I said in the second point, there is the issue of numbers of people involved, which identification today is more common: Montenegrins as citizens, or Montenegrins as an ethnicity. I am unsure on the numbers, but I assume that the number of Montenegrin citizens is currently larger than the current global number of ethnically Montenegrin people, if the number of "Montenegrins as citizens" (as I shall phrase it from this point on) is more numerous than "Montenegrins as an ethnicity", that would provide a strong case for the content of this article to be changed into an article on "Montenegrins as citizens", while creating an article for the smaller group - which I assume is the Montenegrin ethnicity, that would be titled Montenegrins (ethnicity). If I am mistaken and the number of ethnic "Montenegrins as an ethnicity" globally is currently larger than the current number of "Montenegrins as citizens", (by currently I mean approximately close to the present, the most recent demographic survey, for instance) then the reverse should be done. An alternative could be to turn this article into a disambiguation page that shows links to two articles: Montenegrins (citizens) and Montenegrins (ethnicity)
 * I believe that the above three criteria will speed up the resolution of this issue.--R-41 (talk) 00:54, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Nikola Pekovic
Does Nikola Pekovic really declare as a Montenegrin? I mean, he does have a large knight with a Serbian coat of arms on a shield tattooed on his arm. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.246.36.75 (talk) 18:57, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * He does have a Serbian tattoo. He is born in Podgorica and plays for the Montenegrin national team, though he played for Under-21 Serbia and Montenegro 2005-2006 and in Serbian teams 2003-2008, and again from 2011. The tattoo refutes a Montenegrin ethnicity, and shows that he is part of the Montenegrin Serb community though he is still Montenegrin by nationality (citizenship). I support removing him from the infobox on this basis.--Z oupan 01:11, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Per WP:BOLD, and reasons I explained earlier I haved moved this article to be on the ethnic group of Montenegrins, another article is being made for Montenegrins as citizens
Due to the ongoing controversy and edit wars over "who is Montenegrin?" - especially in the ethnic sense versus the citizenship sense, I have moved this article from "Montenegrins" to "Montenegrins (ethnic group)", the article "Montenegrins" redirects to "Montenegrin" that is a disambiguation page that links to the present article as well as "Montenegrins (citizens)" for citizens of Montenegro. I have done this out of WP:BOLD since I recommended a resolution to this earlier above in this talk page, to which there were no responses, but also there was no progress being made, as another discussion opened over the ethnic Montenegrin dimension. As Montenegro is ethnically divided between ethnic Montenegrins, Serbs, Bosniaks, and others, the issue of Montenegrins as citizens was not being addressed, so the new article "Montenegrins (citizens)" addresses that.--R-41 (talk) 17:58, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The article "Montenegrins (citizens)" should maybe be renamed into Montenegrins (demonym) because population of Montenegro was referred to as Montenegrins before state of Montenegro and its citizenship was created?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:03, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I will do that now.--R-41 (talk) 21:17, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The article has been renamed to Montenegrins (demonym).--R-41 (talk) 21:23, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:38, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * No, no, no, you should not divide Montengrins! It is absolutely unnecessary to create separate pages like Montnegrins (people) and Montenegrins (guys with Montenegrin passport). You should just mention in few sentences that Montenegrins are also considered the citizens of Montenegro. Navyworth (talk) 19:04, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Since then, things have taken a turn for the worse - I'm thinking of move-protecting this because the moves are getting ridiculous - we're at a silly accented i now. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 19:59, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That has now been corrected; now &mdash; anyone who wants to have this moved to [whatever], make a formal request with template and all that, wait for input, then move it. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 20:11, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Due to the ongoing move warring, I have just move-protected the page for a fortnight. If you want the page moved to a different name, please follow WP:RM. Salvio  Let's talk about it! 20:13, 23 December 2012 (UTC)

JFTR the article "Montenegrins (demonym)" was deleted on 17 November 2012: ''Expired PROD, concern was: Unreferenced article, redundant. Information already provided in The Montenegrins''. Also, the prefix "The" did not actually disambiguate the nationality article, and it's frowned upon by the manual of style at WP:MOS and WP:THE. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 08:02, 24 December 2012 (UTC)

What the Hell?! What is with the pigheadedness here with wanting to push a narrow definition that does not have agreement, when there are people who identify as ethnically Montenegrin and others who are Montenegrins who are not ethnic Montenegrins but identify as ethnic Serbs, Bosniaks, amongst others! Typical Balkan nationalist POV-pushing doing its charms, for God's sake! There is NO acceptance of a single term. Perhaps if people had of taken part in the discussion I started a few placed above, we could have resolved this in a better way, but no one responded one way or another. I, a non-Balkan person, sought a solution to recognize both, and this nonsense is the response! And look, you have an edit war on your hands, great job. The editors who deleted Montenegrins (demonym) and made Montenegrins (ethnic group) a redirect, made a foolish mistake, they must not have been aware of the serious edit warring here involving division on the usage of the term. In a short time, I am going to start a straw poll for splitting the article again because there is no agreement on definition, with Montenegrins as a disambiguation page that links to Montenegrins (demonym) and Montenegrins (ethnic group). And I'm going to have a Request for Comment for it to hopefully draw in non-Balkan people who don't have an emotional attachment to the issues here, and can provide a more impartial perspective.--R-41 (talk) 22:49, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * If you want to avoid looking like you are teaching the controversy here, you have to show some proof that the group described here isn't the primary topic for "Montenegrins". I know we're basing WP:ARBMAC on the Macedonian case, but you can't prove an equivalence with Macedonians without a modicum of references. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Compare the number of people who identify as ethnic Montenegrins with the number of people who identify as Montenegrins as a demonym. Montenegrin Serbs do not identify as ethnic Montenegrins, neither do the Bosniaks and others, but they are Montenegrins as a demonym.--R-41 (talk) 21:05, 29 December 2012 (UTC)


 * What you just said is classic original research. You should instead cite a sample of secondary sources that use the term "Montenegrins" to refer primarily to the entire population, as opposed to referring to the specific group. For example, you can start by examining the first few pages of http://www.google.com/search?q=Montenegrins&tbm=bks&tbo=1&pws=0 and summarize what you found (avoiding cherry-picking, if it even needs saying). --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 21:32, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Looking through those search results, it is clear, as I have said, that there is no agreement on what the primary topic of reference "Montenegrins" refers to. Upon looking at several pages of the results that you provided a link to, some of the sources refer to Montenegrins as the people of Montenegro in general, while others discuss the ethnicity issue. There isn't agreement on the topic, and the matter of the topic is disputed between two viewpoints that's why it should be split into two topics, one on the ethnic group, the other on the demonym, with the Montenegrins article being a disambiguation page.--R-41 (talk) 00:57, 30 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Can you be more descriptive? Because it doesn't seem immediately ambiguous to me from a quick skim. #1 has no obvious mention in the snippet, #2 is a book called "The migration of Serbs and Montenegrins from Kosovo and Metohija", #3 is a book called "Serbs, Montenegrins and Croats compared". #4 is a book about Montenegro that seems to discuss the notion of separate Serb and Montenegrin nations in history. #5 also refers to this group as Montenegrins. #6 has Serbs and Montenegrins listed in the snippet. Then there's two copies of Wikipedia. #9 refers to these Montenegrins as such. #10 is a copy of #4. I didn't look further, but from the first page I see no reason to trust you're not 'teaching the controversy'. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 10:01, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

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was this page translated from another language?
Some of the verbiage is odd for english. I would like to improve the prose, but dont want to step on anyone.

Kd8qdz (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:29, 17 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes, most of the content, especially in history section was copied from the Serbian Wikipedia article, which I believe is against the rules, since it's not noted anywhere, and especially due to the amount of ridiculousness and war-propaganda and lies written in there. It's a shame that nobody stood up to fix that, at least English Wikipedia should have some sort of credibility and NPOV.79.140.149.242 (talk) 22:22, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Category:Slavic countries and territories
It is currently being proposed that Category:Slavic countries and territories be deleted. This article is related to that category. The relevant discussion is located at Categories for discussion/Log/2020 January 8. The discussion would benefit from input from editors with a knowledge of and interest in Montenegrins. Krakkos (talk) 11:15, 10 January 2020 (UTC)