Talk:Montreal West, Quebec

Montreal West instead of Montréal-Ouest
If this is the former city of Montreal West, why is the page Montréal-Ouest, when the page goes on to say the name of the town in Montréal-Ouest in French? Surely this is the English wikipedia? Nfitz 16:23, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Name of article
Before moving this article (and this goes for advocates of both spellings), please post your proposal on this Talk page and on Requested moves and follow the accepted procedures for changing page names. --Russ Blau (talk) 19:59, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Not sure on Name Change
While I agree that it should be Montreal West, being English and a lifelong resident of Montreal West, I believe the french title should stay. Should one type "montreal west" in the search bar it gets taken here anyway. I'm fairly certain that all legal affairs involving Montreal West exist in French now. That is to say, its legal name is Montreal-Ouest. Don't quote me on this, but i believe it to be the case. The town's legal name is what's really in question here.

So perhaps we should find out in what language is the official title of this town in?

However, take England for example. Angleterre in French, England in English.

This is an interesting question.

How can it be anything other than Montreal West + Copyright violation?
The town no longer exists as the political entity it once was. For most of the last hundred or so years it was Montreal West. During the latter phases of it's existence, the provincial bureaucrats might have referred to it as Montréal-Ouest, but as this is a page about a historic town, then surely the spelling used for most of it's history is best. Also, we should be looking at the Town's records, not the Province's, if you want to see what was done at the end of it's existence. I'm not really up on the demerger, but if you go to the City of Montreal's web-site, it calls the area Montreal West not Montréal-Ouest! How can you get any more official than this? link? Also, compare this page to the Wikipedia page! Looks like a copyright violation! That page claims copyright on some of the text on the Wikipedia page!

Not sure who changed the page. But it now says Montreal-West rather than Montreal West - I've never seen that spelling before! Nfitz 23:44, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Name Change
I'd be tempted for vote for "Montreal West" upon further inspection. Furthermore, it was I who took that part of the text from the borough page. Its been taken away. Thought it was public and not copyrighted, my bad. -Dross82

Someone moved the page back to Montréal-Ouest
While we have been discussing this, someone moved the page back to Montréal-Ouest. But they have not contributed to the discussion here. I'm going to move this properly back to Montreal West. Nfitz 00:54, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * That's the French-language website though. It's not appropriate to use that as a guideline for use on an English-language version of Wikipedia.  The English-language version of the City of Montréal website almost without except uses Montreal West rather than Montréal-Ouest.  Hang on, that sounds like a personal attack?  These are not allowed here, see No personal attacks.  Please refrain from doing this.  Nfitz 02:10, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Examples to Prove Nfitz to be Correct
Here's a link to the English version of the Borough site: 

Here's a link to the French version of the Borough site: 

Notice the logo at the top of both pages (the green leaf with cote-st-luc/hamstead/montreal west written). You'll notice that on the English page, it says "Montreal West" while in French is says "Montreal-Ouest".

Also, here's a reference on the City of Montreal website (in the English section) where they refer to it as "Montreal West" if you scroll down a bit:

If you look at the French version of the same page, you'll find that it is there referred to as "Montreal-Ouest".

I feel that that pretty much settles the debate in favor of the English version of this pages being named "Montreal West".

I'm afraid as an English person born in Montreal I also don't appreciate the tone of your previous message. Wikipedia is based on fact and research, not personal politics. -Dross82

If you can prove to me that you're right, I'd be happy to agree with your position. I'd like to see some proof, however. I've provided you with links to prove my position, you should do the same.

In fact, I went to the "agglomération of Montréal" website you speak of to see if you're claim was true. Here's what I found:

ENGLISH - "Montreal West" 

FRENCH - "Montreal-Ouest

Dross82

The other question will be what the new municipality operates under when it actually starts operating; it was quite clear that when part of City of Montréal, the spelling was Montreal West. Given the linguist bigots that seem to migrate to the Quebec bureaucracy, I'm not sure that how they spell things is realistic and fair guidance to how they are spelled in the English language. Besides, as pointed out above, even the Québec government is using the Montreal West spelling interchangeable with Montréal-Ouest. Nfitz 18:04, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

There's one last point that I just thought of. Let's take a French example for a minute - Angleterre (not sure how to link it - go to French wiki and look it up). This is the French word for England. Were I to take the stance of Orthodoxe, I'd be on that French wikipedia discussion page saying that is should be renamed to England. My justification would be that all the legal documents relating to the country use the English term, so the page should therefore be renamed as such.

But while this it absolutely true, the fact of the matter is that that page is French wikipedia and French people use the term Angleterre universally to describe that country. This logic holds true for Montreal West. English people call it (and spell it) Montreal West universally in English.

That being said, the French wikipedia page should definitely be called Montreal-Ouest. As a side-note, it doesn't yet exist.

Anybody know how to get the date and time next to your name??? -Dross82

Ah, good point! I must pop over to the Indonesian version and change to Canada! They obviously don't know what they are doing over there! To get your name and date, put 4 ~ in a row Nfitz 18:44, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Arg! I give up. We'll let the voting decide. If you're so serious about arguing for French spelling, why haven't you created a French version of this page? Dross82 05:11, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I have no objections to the French language in any way. In fact, I'm envious of Quebecois culture in some ways and agree with the idea of Quebec separation. As for Dieu et mon droit, it really makes me think about how naming things on Wikipedia is really a confusing issue. Why did you rename it? I respect your standpoint, but respectfully disagree on the Montreal West/Ouest issue. That being said, you did checkmate me with a reference I've never heard of regarding Angleterre. How bout Australie? ha. No hard feelings I hope. Dross82 00:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

When one says uses that phrase in English, one uses the French words and French spelling. When one says Montreal West in English, one uses the English words and spelling (at least anyone I've ever encountered in Montreal West speaking fluent English). To change the phrase from French to English would be shear vandalism! Nfitz 23:21, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

On a lighter note, I'm not sure why you aren't trying to fix problems on the. For example, I note that there is an article there called not which is what the same government you reference above says Hamburger should be called

Voting
If there's a vote then,
 * Support. LuiKhuntek 23:00, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Support. Dross82


 * Support. Nfitz 15:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Moved. &mdash; Nightstallion (?) 09:07, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Guidlines
Check this out:

Naming conventions (use English) - Dross82 01:47, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Please stop moving this page
We went through a proper move request process on this. The conclusion was it should be Montreal West, not Montréal-Ouest. Stop changing the page. It's immaterial what the Government of Quebec, when operating in French, thinks the name legally is ... the use of language can't be dictated by a government ... particularly when most of what you cited is not even in English. As others have pointed out, the Montreal West name is what is used in English; the town itself, and the City of Montréal use Montreal West not Montréal-Ouest in English documents. And the Wikipedia standard is to use English in these cases. I don't see how much more clear-cut this can get. Nfitz 18:17, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

The title of an article should simply be based on usage. When speaking English, Montreal West is used. When speaking English Dieu et mon droit is used. It's no more complicated than this. Nfitz 16:34, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Counterpoints
From the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms

"16. (1) English and French are the official languages of Canada and have equality of status and equal rights and privileges as to their use in all institutions of the Parliament and government of Canada."

From the Charter of the French Language

Clearly this is true:

1. French is the official language of Québec

However:

17. The Government, the government departments and the other agencies of the civil administration shall use only the official language in their written communications with each other.

The above signals that while written communications must be in "Montreal-Ouest", that doesn't necessarily mean that it must be the official name of the town.

29.1. English language school boards and the Commission scolaire du Littoral are recognized school bodies.

The Office shall recognize, at the request of the municipality, body or institution,(1) a municipality of which more than half the residents have English as their mother tongue;(2) a body under the authority of one or more municipalities that participates in the administration of their territory, where each such municipality is a recognized municipality; or(3) a health and social services institution listed in the Schedule, where it provides services to persons who, in the majority, speak a language other than French;

The Government may, at the request of a body or institution that no longer satisfies the condition which enabled it to obtain the recognition of the Office, withdraw such recognition if it considers it appropriate in the circumstances and after having consulted the Office. Such a request shall be made to the Office, which shall transmit it to the Government with a copy of the record. The Government shall inform the Office and the body or institution of its decision.

The above says that if the majority of the town is English (which it is), it can be recognized as English.

From The Commission of the toponymie du Québec "

"porte le nom de Town of Montreal West en anglais" (uses the name Town of Montreal West in english)

Check that out! It so says it in the small print on that link. Ha! Even the Quebec government says it! You're whole argument is gone. That page disproves you entirely.

Geneva Conventions

As for the Geneva Conventions, I think you're reaching. They have to do only with people in relation to wars and armed conflict.

I'm Tired of This, But My Last Point is This
Please mail them and have them send more info. I'd be glad to see it. The PDF that you posted definitely has some validity in terms of official Quebec government naming. I would once again appreciate it if you wouldn't resort to personal attacks. I've not once attacked you personally.

Naming conventions (use English) still stands though, and makes everything else irrelevent, including the Quebec government stance on the issue. If you keep acting this way and changing this page without everyone's consent you're going to get yourself banned I'm afraid. Wikipedia isn't all about YOU and your pro-French crusade. You need to respect concensus, as well as the above mentioned Wikipedia naming convention.

If you want to go off and create your own wiki website and do this that's fine, but you're being unrespectful here. Dross82 01:25, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any point continuing this discussion. Everyone has been in agreement except one person. It went through the formal page move process, and it was moved with only the objections of the one person. Said person has continued to personally attack those who disagree with him, despite continued warnings. Said person has not attemped to appeal the move in an appropriate forum. Nfitz 16:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I never accepted that the official name is Montréal-Ouest when talking in English; I think you misconstrued something I said. I'm not even sure it has an official name in English!  I also never said it was a city; why do you keep saying this?   How can it be a city with a population of only about 5,000 people?

Dieu et mon droit is done that way, because that is the way it is more common used in English. I'm no expert in that area, but the denizens over there changed it back after you changed it. If you have issue, you should discuss it there.

Montréal-Est should be Montréal-Est as far as I'm concerned. Personally, I've not heard it called Montreal East much at all. I've never seen that page before, and interestingly it is Montreal East! Doesn't make sense to me ... I'll move it. I'm not as familiar with Montréal-Nord, and perhaps that is open to debate, as I had Montreal North more often, but I've also heard Montréal-Nord in English. It's in French now, and I'll leave that alone. Nfitz 21:03, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

As per Naming conventions (use English), it should be Montreal North, Montreal East. It is true that I care more about Montreal West than the other two, but that Wikipedia rule says that those other 2 should be English too.

If you would read the above link, it says the following:

"If a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form."

If i had to guess why the other ones haven't been contested when you changed them, I'd say that its probably because nobody is "watching" them and has seen what you've done.

Dross82 23:37, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd say that according to "only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form." would make Montreal East be Montréal-Est. I'd say that Montréal-Est is more common in English that Montreal East. Certainly I use Montreal West, not Montréal-Ouest. But I Montréal-Est not Montreal East ... I don't think I've ever had the reason to mention Montréal North :-). Same way I'd say de la Montagne, not Mountain Street (which always confuses me).  And Deux-Montagne, not Two Mountains. Nfitz 14:47, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

It's based on usage. Just like a dictionary. This is the same way that the English language works. It can't be set by committee or government - just by usage. Nfitz 16:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I guess I could be tempted to agree with this last and the 3rd-to-last statement. Seems to make sense. I'm sure it'll become a bigger argument eventually though. Dross82 23:20, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

To close this discussion...
It's simply based on usage. I'm not aware what people call Le Sud-Ouest when speaking English. I've always heard it referred to by it's neighbourhood. Ville Emard, Little Burgundy, Saint-Henri, The Point ... so I won't comment. But we call Ville Emard, Ville Emard, not Town of Emard, or Emard ...  And we call Notre-Dame-de-Grace as Notre-Dame-de-Grace or NDG; not Our Lady of Grace or OLG ...  I can't imagine you'd put "Our-Lady-Of-Grace" in Wikipedia. Not sure what the concern is. This is how English works, and how it has always worked; over time things will change, and the language will change, which is why we call Mountain Street da la Montagne, and St. James is normally called St. Jacques and we drive cars and not automobiles. There is not, or has ever been any committee that chooses words, correct spellings, or the like. In English, if you can't find the right word, invent it; and if everyone starts using it, it's a word! It's a fundamental difference between English and many modern languages. And interestingly, mirrors the difference between English Common Law and French Civil Law. Nfitz 23:09, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

General usage. Primarily, go out into the streets of Montreal-Est, and listen to how the native-English speakers pronounce it. Personally, I've heard native-English speakers (though I don't think I've actually ever met one while in Montreal-Est) use the French pronunciation over the English one. But in Montreal West, I hear the English name over the French one. And in NDG I hear the French name over the English one. Maybe I'm wrong, and others will say they hear otherwise. Secondarily, is how the new city of Montreal-Est and town of Montreal West refer to themselves in English language documents. I've seen none from either yet. Though the old borough that Montreal West was part of always almost always used Montreal West over Montreal-Ouest in their English-language documents. Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think your usage would count, as based on your writing, I don't think (though I'm not 100% sure) that you are a native-English speaker. For example, I'm guessing that when you speak English, you would pronounce Montreal as Montréal and not Montreal (with an ē rather than than an é). Though that shouldn't stop you making edits, if you think that is what is right. Nfitz 18:40, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

But I don't even recognize it is a city! How can it be with only 5000 people! I just tripped over a couple of interesting documents about how to name features in Montreal: Portal:Montreal/Discussions/English Names and Portal:Montreal/Discussions/English Names/Draft policy that I had never come across before! Everything we've been discussing, pretty much, is addressed there. Though I disagree with their "Montreal East" and not translating Borough names (if City of Montreal translates Borough names, who are we not to?). BTW, that "unlike Anglos I do effort to learn and speak the other language" comment of yours is out of line. What do you think this is, 1965??? I haven't met many Anglos in Montreal who don't try and speak French in years ... they all left! Though I have met many Francophones who don't speak English ... though to be fair, you can't live in Quebec without French, but you can live in Quebec without English Nfitz 05:16, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

But how could it be a city? A city is defined in the Canadian Oxford dictionary as being a "a municipality with a large population or area, or combination of the two". 5,000 is not a large population, and the Town of Montreal West certainly doesn't encompass a large area. The Wikipedia entry for city notes that "A city is an urban area that is differentiated from a town, village, or hamlet by size, population density, importance, or legal status.". Montreal West is clearly not a city under any definition of the word! I think you are confused by the french word "ville" which does not directly translate to "city" Nfitz 22:36, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism ?
- > quite a way of rewriting a talk page for User:Orthodoxe ? Sebjarod 12:19, 21 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Odd, but I don't see anything improper ... though some of his later edits (by removing your bit), do seem improper. Nfitz 21:03, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Montréal-Ouest Train Station
About the train station of Montréal-Ouest of the AMT, do you now if it is in the territory of the city or it is in the terretory of the city of Montreal. Thank you. Orthodoxe
 * Good question. Both actually. The border itself are the backyards between Brock and Connaught.  If you look at Google maps you can see this line.  The station building itself is mostly in Montreal, though the most western portion of the building is barely in Montreal West.  The platform itself is about 60% in Montreal and 40% in Montreal West.  The locals tend to treat everything between Westminster and Elmhurst as the station, and enter the platforms from the level crossing.  Not sure if there is a tunnel there now or not - didn't used to be.  The AMT signs just say Montréal-Ouest (at least since the renovations in the early 1980's.  Not sure if the CN or Via Rail signs are still there or not ...
 * Personnaly, I have the tentation to put the train station Montréal-Ouest in the city of Montreal. Because, if i look on the web site of the AMT, we can find that the adress of the station is on the avenue Harley and this avenue is in Montreal because in Montreal-Ouest, this street is name Broughton. Thank you for your help.
 * Hmm, interesting ... though AMT notes it is in Montréal-Ouest not Montréal.  They may be something strange with the boundary at the station ... might be tough to figure out without looking at a legal plan.  From the property line the stations platforms are partly in each city, while the station building is mostly in Montreal and partly in Montreal-West.  I'd just say it is on the Montreal/Montreal West boundary (as it does appear to be) ...  Nfitz
 * I have the tentation to put the train station Montréal-Ouest in the city of Montreal. Because, if i look on the web site of the AMT, we can find that the adress of the station is on the avenue Harley and this avenue is in Montreal because in Montreal-Ouest, this street is name Broughton. Thank you.
 * Though AMT notes the municipality as Montréal-Ouest not Montréal - otherwise I'd agree with you. What you would need is the legal survey, but in the absence of that, I'd stick with what the agency that runs's the station says, or just simply note that it is on the border, and not get any detailed that that. Nfitz 20:53, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Not a city
Opening paragraph made no sense. First it said it was a town, and then called it a city. Removed ambiguous text. Nfitz 17:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I would expect you to know that under Quebec law, no distinction exists between cities and towns; there's only one word for both, ville. English usage may informally differentiate between cities and towns, but this is based on subjective and non-standard criteria, and thus it's not a distinction that we can presume to draw on Wikipedia. Montreal West has ville status; that's the bottom line. Bearcat 03:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Royal West the Best?
The article says "Montreal West is known for having the best English public high school in the island of Montreal: Royal West Academy". This is a highly subjective statement. Not only that, but "best" in what sense? Best academically? in sports? for slackers? what? Also, it should at least say "on the island" not "in" it. I hope it wasn't a Royal Wester that wrote that sentence! :) I am not disputing that it is a good school, but such a statement isn't even pretending to be at all neutral. 70.53.193.107  10:23, 20 June 2006

Be bold. The page certainly needs some polishing! Nfitz 07:39, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't write this, but I know it to be true. I'll make a change so that it's more specific Dross82

Dross82, do you have a source for that 39th ranking?

Size of the Town
The article says the size of Montreal West is of 1630 square kilometers, this is not possible, as the whole island of Montreal has 400km² (acording to the Article about the Island of Montreal. I imagine the right area should be 1630 square meters (1.6km²), but it seems too small for me, so I didn't changed it, can someone please confirm the size of the town? Thanks.

First Train Suburb, First Garden Suburb
It's interesting that no mention of the history of Montreal West is made in this article. The Town's archives are full of wonderful photos and historical documents. Montreal West is an important example of the Garden Suburb Movement, and yet no mention. Yet, there is a ridiculous forum about Montreal West versus Montréal-Ouest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.27.243.194 (talk) 17:18, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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