Talk:Monumento Nacional de Santa Cruz del Valle de los Caidos

YES. They should be merged. No need for two separate articles on the same topic.

Add construction data of the cross: when was it built? Is there an observation deck on the cross? What is in the cross? Is it also used for transmission?


 * Does it have a revolving restaurant? Is there a flashing beacon for low-flying aircraft?


 * No, there is no restaurant. There does not appear be a beacon, but I believe the cross is lit at night. Robbyslaughter 03:09, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Merge suggestion
Why not? --Wetman 17:55, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Merge the articles now!
I agree. The articles should be merged. Some websites claim the height of the cross to be 200 meters, if so it probably includes the rock base. Nevertheless; 50 stories height is amazing! What happened to the proposal of dedicating the monument to both sides in the civil war? You find the answer in the other article! "Died for God and Spain" is typically falangist rhetoric, few on the republican side would feel honored by such words. Ivar Christensen, Norway

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The real Height is 150 m, -300 m from the transept of the Basilica to the top of the cross-

"Fallen for god and for Spain" is not really a Falangist, but Francoist motto. There is an account of all the individuals buried in the site, where can be publicly verified that the fallen come from both sides of the war. However, it is obvious that and the memorial focuses on Nationalist casualties, few republicans fell for God or Spain.

NPOV concern
I am concerned that the article as a whole has been written to portray the Monument in a positive light and does not reflect the controvery around it in a truly NPOV way. At least the following excerpt from the "Controversy" section seems NPOV to me and ought to be changed: "What is certain is that, at least, the statement is a blatant exaggeration. According to the project records, no more than 2000 workers participated directly in the construction. On regards to the origin of the workers, most of them were obviously highly skilled workers as required by the complexity of the work." Argasp

Outrageous
The last section about the workers is just a load of fascist propaganda. Is absolutely ourageus to have that in a site like Wikipedia. Among the FORCED and TORTURED workers was my granpa. Yes, many died. This is outrageus!
 * I have now made a meticulous cleanup, evaluating each edit, building upon the clean version of Revision as of 14:40, 30 April 2005; I have included the useful elements of the anonymous "controversy" assertions of 3 February 2006 from User:80.236.146.166. I have removed the doubtful assertion "The church also displays a swastika, presumably because of the aid given the Falange by Nazi Germany." I believe I have not left out anything of value. --Wetman 10:30, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

The two of the articles talks about the same thing. Please, merge them.
I live in Madrid and I know the monument. The cross itself and the basilica under it are part of the same building.

About controversial, undoubtly the monument was erected by the winners of the spanish civil war, to high up what they called their "glorious victory in their crusade". Spanish fascist paraphernalia are merged directly with catholic ones; in fact, they said that they won thanks to "the Grace of God". The official spanish ecclesiastical hierarchy was, in that epoch, comfortably with that. In other words, the monument itself is not "neutral", but it is necessary to recognize that builders highlight religion over politics. They do not tried to humiliate the losers; at last, they displayed a feeling of Christian charity (at their own way, of course).

Today it can be freely visited. Is part of the Patrimonio Nacional (National Owning), and it is treated as a historic building, as it is in fact. Today's visitor can admire the greatness of the monument. The few fascist symbols are seeing naturally in the historical context, it does not matter if you share the same political ideas or not.

About the workers, mainly the were prisoners, political and others. The economic cost of the work is not known precisely, but is estimated in some million of US dollars. In that years, the government used to get for free many resources as if it was their absolute owner (and What is a tyranny, at all?), and cheap workers was not an exception. They lived hard working conditions, but similar of the mines or the quarries of that epoch. The main difference was that they were treated like a true prisoners (in fact, they were), and they do not enjoyed freedom. Maybe this is not desirable for everybody, but wars are the worst thing of the world, and when they happens, this kind of things also happens.

A note: I do not share fascist political ideas. Ricardo Cancho Niemietz, Spain. --213.96.157.218 08:33, 14 July 2006 (UTC)