Talk:Monymusk Reliquary


 * 1) Please see the article on Hiberno-Saxon art. Iona was founded by Irish monks and the Hiberno-Saxon tradition there was of Irish origin fused with Anglo-Saxon metalworking.
 * 2) The Monymusk Reliquary is a fusion of Irish and Pictish styles.
 * 3) According to our very own Gaels article, The Gaels are an ethnic group in Ireland, Scotland and the Isle of Man -- well, that's too broad. Specifically, it is an Irish and Pictish fusion.

Keep in mind we are discussing medieval artistic traditions. If the actual people who made the reliquary were of Scottish ethnic origin, or on a Scottish island, is of no significance to the artistic heritage. This particular piece was a fusion of Irish and Scottish (pictish) styles and Germanic metalworking artistic traditions.

--Stbalbach 05:47, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is of relevence. I don't see what's wrong with being safe and using Gaels, since you're implying that people of Dalriada were divorced from these traditions by confining the terminology to "Irish", when it is clear that Dalriada was a cultural center of these traditions. - Calgacus 12:55, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm talking about about an artistic movement, or style, not the people. The reliquary is house-shaped which is distinctly an Irish hallmark. The reliquary was (probably) made in Ionia, an Irish missionary outpost. It is Christian - Picts were not Christian, it was the Irish missionaries who Christianized the Picts. Further:


 * "..the reliquary is dated to the eighth  century  and shows a combination of the Pictish and Irish styles..", -- Karin Hilton Hatfield College, Univ. Of Durham, A Study Of The Interrelationship And Development Of Fantastic Beasts In Manuscripts And Metalwork Of The Sixth To Eighth Centuries In The British Isles.

To not credit the Irish influence is, IMO, nationalistic and POV. What other influence could it originate from? The Picts didnt invent a style like that on their own, the design originated from Ireland (as a fusion with Pictish style and Germanic metalworking). --Stbalbach 15:49, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Stbalbach, it's not in the slightest bit nationalistic or "POV", it's un-nationalist as it puts emphasis on an ancient ethnic group, and not a modern national construct. My own view is that using Irish to mean Gael is nationalistic and extremely point-of-view, esp. as the Irish origin of British Gaels is a disputed matter. The writer is simply doing what many do, equating Gaelic with "Irish", (rather like calling Anglo-Saxon things "German"), a scholarly tendency that had resulted in two common translations of Bede's "lingua scotica" (Irish and Scottish), neither of which properly translate the language meant, Gaelic; and while its true that all Irish in the eighth century were Gaels, not all Gaels were Irish. BTW, the Picts were christian well before 750, and perhaps some of them were even before the Irish (there were Roman-period monasteries in the Firth of Forth). I don't understand why you have a problem, Gaelic includes Irish and isn't much broader. Given that Iona is one of the centres for "Hiberno-Saxon" art, a rather antiquated term BTW, any sensible person would have to choose the safer and more authentic ethnic term "Gaelic" than the modern political term "Irish". - Calgacus 16:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Irish is not being used to mean Gael, that's why I wanted to remove Gael entirely, it has meaning that is not intended. We dont call them "Gaelic missionaries" who came to Scotland, we call them "Irish missionaries". When Christian monasteries were first established in Ireland, the monks did manuscript illumination. They drew on Celtic motifs and developed a unique style of Christian (with some Mediterranean influence) and Celtic fusion. When the Irish Christian missionaries came to "Pictland" they brought with them the artistic traditions they had developed in Ireland, combining with the metalworking skills and techniques of the Anglo-Saxons to create what art historians call "Hiberno-Saxon art". The reliquary is an example of these fusions of styles: Irish-Christian-Celtic, Germanic and Pictish. There is really nothing remarkable about this or any reason to insert doubt about it, it is the standard art history narrative. See also Celtic art and Hiberno-Saxon art. --Stbalbach 17:07, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Clydesdale Bank £20 note
Does this box feature on the £20 note issued by the Clysdeale Bank (on the reverse) ? Astrotrain 00:09, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Christian mythology?
User:Str1977 has methodically gone through articles included in the Category:Christian mythology removing them. This article was one of those removed.Perhaps not in the interests of the non-indoctrinated Wikipedia reader? I have no opinion in this particular case myself. --Wetman 09:31, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Ilse of Iona relics
Sin the Brecbennoch was supposed by all to have originated on the Isle of Iona, its former relics thought to be form St Columba (a Christian saint missionarey from Ireland) who lived there (his bones e.g.) ... also related to what the relics actually were is the 'high' Christian 'higher' forms of rites shown proven there in the Iona monastery courtyard - an 'imprint' of the 'skull and cross bones' which represents the AO, the Alpha & Omega of Christ ... which you SEE in viewing the "holy mountain" with Christ stretching forth his arm to create the whole universe (right arm) (alpha) and dropped down alongside him, his left arm ends with the (Omega) symbol of skull & cross bones.... So rather than the Brecbennoch today BEING empty, it is the source of 'blessing' fo the Scot army advancing in battle ... an engine / technology engine of this blessing from that Godhead / Holy Mountain / all power .... This blesisng of any army you see in Asia related, similar blessings where the Duke, Prince, Emperor (e.g. in Japan) extends his 'fan' forth to wave down blessing upon his army (3x) .... sO THE SYMBOLS Brenocbennoch demonstrate the technique / flow of this blessing ... THAT is what the ART is here ,,,, and so disucssing ART / sumbol shape divorced from its MEANING & use ... is meaningless ... as just proven. LIL ARDRI SR 47.18.43.166 (talk) 00:28, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

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