Talk:Moon River/Archive 1

Personal opinions
The "Perhaps one of the best renditions of "Moon River" was performed by Anwar Robinson on American Idol during the 2005 season." I believe should be removed.

Personal opinions
I saw a TV program about Henry Mancini some ten or fifteen years ago. In an interview he mentioned that he had struggled significantly with this song, but was relieved when the first three notes (Moon Ri-ver) suddenly appeared to him ("Then I knew I was home free"). Songwriting and any other effort in life should always be like that.

Music analysis
Maybe a minor nitpick WRT "Another upward leap follows (F-high E)": in the film, in the first verse she sings E - high E 78.84.195.178 (talk) 14:52, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of lyrics
I note that previous edits have discussed whether or not to keep the lyrics, stating that partial quotations are OK under fair use. That may be true, but the most recent version had the complete lyric which does not qualify as fair use. 23skidoo 04:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I have removed the full lyrics from the most recent edit on the page. DJRafe (talk) 21:08, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Spanish version of the song
There's a great version of this song sang in spanish by Pedro Jose Sanchez Martinez. It belong to the soundtrack of the Almodovar's movie "La Mala Educación".


 * Article says "The song is sung with a guitar accompaniment by the main character in a pivotal scene of the 2004 film La Mala educación (Bad Education) directed by Pedro Almodóvar. Although the film is Spanish, the song lyrics are sung in English." yet I could have sworn they were in Spanish in the film. Asa01 05:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

This was indeed sung in Spanish. This should be changed.

I was the one who wrote that part about being sung in English - I may have misremembered, and I don't speak Spanish. I am pretty sure, though, that the two words "Moon River" are clearly in English, at least. Ekoontz

The River named the Song
It took 30 minutes for Mancini to write the melody. Three weeks for Mercer to write the words. Mercer put himself in Holly Golightly's shoes, and remembered how badly he wanted to make it to New York, but to get there meant crossing the creek just north of his house known as Moon River. Therefore, "Moon River, wider than a mile," a metaphor for the distance to NYC, "I'm crossing you in style someday." meaning his success in the Big Apple. The story is referenced in Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, but told to me by family. MMetro 11:48, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Reference in Frasier episode "Sea Bee Jeebies"
At the end of the Seabees ceremony, Frasier sings the valediction to the tune of Moon River.

Supported here:  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.72.41.10 (talk) 07:51, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

music analysis removal
Is this step-by-step analysis of the entire progression encyclopedic? It seems out of place to me. Other pop ballads don't have this overly verbose section. Is there something particularly innovative about this progression? I believe it should be removed altogether. -67.160.246.224 (talk) 23:03, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Simpsons Reference
It's actually referenced a third time, in the episode Smart and Smarter.216.26.214.112 (talk) 01:11, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Trivial Information
It has been brought up that some of the more trivial information should be removed from this article. Any opinions of whether or not some of this information should be removed from the article? Housewatcher (talk) 15:50, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I do think that some of the information is trivial and should be deleted. I don't all of it needs to be deleted, though.  I think sources need to be added.  Instead of just removing it from the article, it should have sources added or tagged. LongLiveMusic (talk) 04:55, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Not all of it needs to be deleted, but some definitely does. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:53, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

theme song in movie
What was the movie that had Moon River as a theme song about a girl living in a river boat? I didn't see it mentioned in the article unless I'm going blind.Robinrobin (talk) 17:23, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

I must have been thinking of "Tammy" from "Tammy and the Bachelor". They are a little bit similar. I had such a clear memory of it being "Moon River". Must be going senile.Robinrobin (talk) 19:57, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

"My huckleberry friend"
Haven't looked at the reference. Here's where I found this: As a child, Mercer picked huckleberries (like wild blueberries) in the summer. To him, the berries had a personal connection with a carefree boyhood, strengthened by association with Mark Twain's character Huckleberry Finn. The implication was that Holly Golightly, who was actually of hillbilly stock, and Huckleberry Finn might well have been friends, if ever they had met. Taken from 'Love Me Tender: The Stories Behind the World's Favourite Songs' by Max Cryer, published by Frances Lincoln on Oct 23. Raquel Baranow (talk) 19:13, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

WP:COATRACK list of performers and covers
Tens of thousands of singers have sung and/or recorded Moon River, one of the most popular American sings of all time. The WP:SPAMMY, random, OR, WP:COATRACKY section listing over 100 out of these tens of thousands needs to be removed, per policy: WP:Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. -- Softlavender (talk) 04:14, 6 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The most important/successful recordings should be referenced, and the other names trimmed. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:52, 6 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Right now most of the mentions are either non-important, not particularly successful or noteworthy, or both. There needs to be mention of noteworthiness for each one. Since that is lacking on almost all of them, it would be best to delete the entire mess and then allow back in cited mentions of charting recordings (as a single, not within an album). Also, mentions of singing-show competition performances need to go as well. Softlavender (talk) 05:41, 6 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't think the recordings need to chart, but they should each have a ref. A recording on a major label is far more important than one-off appearances on TV competition shows. -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:13, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree! Charting single as a sole criteria may sound objective but somewhat misses the mark somewhat as notability of a recording doesn't solely arise being a charting single. --Kmhkmh (talk) 06:36, 6 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Well first off all we're are not listening ten of thousands of recordings here and nobody suggested a complete "bibliography", so I'm not quite sure what your point is there. --Kmhkmh (talk) 06:36, 6 January 2016 (UTC)


 * "... I'm not quite sure what your point is there". My point, which I already stated, is that this article contains mention of 110 fairly random performances or recordings, which violates WP:COATRACK, WP:SPAM, and WP:Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. -- Softlavender (talk) 07:26, 6 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The article should (and imho largely does) list notable recordings and/or recordings by notable artists over the years and for famous song that can be larger list of names. Note the listing of notable recordings and artist is neither a violation of WP:COATRACK nor a case of WP:Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.


 * Some trimming might be appropriate and looking at charting recordings is one option. However on its own it is not always sufficient and comes with a number issues, starting with the chart selection (and possible cut off positions. That aside not every every notable recording comes in form of a charting single, however the notability should of course be determined/sourced by other means (for instance album reviews that have some detail on the recording, other reviews of the recording, a particularly famous artist, recording used in movies,...)


 * Versions from singig show competition strike me as non-notable at first glance, however it didn't see them when browsing through it. So which are those?


 * One thing I'd suggest to avoid long enumerations posssibly creating a spammy impression at a first glance, is to structure the recordings by time and/or style perods, instrumental and non-instrumental version and by possibly by language or cultural region and may usage in other media (such as in movies). --Kmhkmh (talk) 06:36, 6 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Clearly, anything that is not referenced can be deleted. So, if you don't want something to be deleted, please hurry and find a reference for it. -- Ssilvers (talk) 06:49, 6 January 2016 (UTC)


 * In point of fact a mere citation does not mean information is worthy of inclusion. The information needs to be encyclopedically noteworthy rather than a coatracky, spammy indiscriminate collection of information. If someone can find one or more WP:RS(s) that list(s) noteworthy recordings of "Moon River", that could justify inclusions of the recordings listed therein. In whatever inclusion criteria we use, there must be some noteworthiness established when the problem has grown to the proportion of this problem. Softlavender (talk) 07:36, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't share you assessment about the alleged size of the problem, but I agree gowever that a requiring a mere citation isn't helping, though it might reduce undesirable or careless "drive by" addition. We need some reasonable/workable criteria to establish notability of a recording. The point of a citation then is simply to confirm the criteria in an external source (if it is not already obvious for some other reason like for instance the recording or the album it belongs to having its own article already.


 * Note that outcome of this discussion should be a reasonable notability criteria or assessment not merely a tool to shorten the list. The list of artists can be long provided they are notable enough. The way to deal with a larger amount of notable is (as mentioned above already) to structure and contextualize them (rather than enumerating all in one go).--Kmhkmh (talk) 08:11, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria
Here are the precise inclusion criteria: WP:SONGCOVER. Any cover that either (1) is not discussed by a reliable source on the subject of the song, or (2) does not itself meet the notability requirement at WP:NSONGS, needs to be deleted. Softlavender (talk) 08:35, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * While that criteria is somewhat stricter than what was discussed above it is still no reason for a wholesale removal.--Kmhkmh (talk) 10:43, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Softlavender, you have stated the critera under WP:SONGCOVER incorrectly. There it says that the cover should be included if at least one of the following applies:
 * the rendition is discussed by a reliable source on the subject of the song,
 * the rendition itself meets the notability requirement at WP:NSONGS.
 * Therefore, I disagree with your wholesale deletion of the covers. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:16, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Please re-read what I wrote: Any performance that does not meet one of the two criteria needs to be deleted. None of the items I removed demonstrably met either criteria. If any of them can be demonstrated, with confirming citations, to meet either of those criteria, they can be added back in. Softlavender (talk) 01:42, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * That is simply not true and you would have been aware of that if you actually had bothered to read the existing sources rather just attempting a wholesale removal. For instance Frank Sinatra, Louis Armstrong, Judy Garland, Sarah Vaughan and Sarah Brightman are all mentioned in the Telegraph article about song.


 * Aside from what is already or can be sourced I'd like to point again that imho the article would benefit more from reorganizing and contextualizing the cover versions and usages rather than wikilawyering over individual entries.--Kmhkmh (talk) 02:42, 7 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I did read every single citation before I made the removal. Please read WP:SONGCOVER again. I don't know how much clearer I can be. None of the covers in the article either


 * met WP:NSONGS (which criteria is as follows):




 * or


 * were discussed by a reliable source on the subject of the song.


 * Ssilvers has just now added this Telegraph article as a WP:RS citation for a few. I do not consider listings on last.fm or diffuser.fm (which Ssilvers has also just now added as citations) as "being discussed by WP:RS on the subject of the song", because I don't consider them WP:RS as defined by Wikipedia (please read WP:RS; I don't have the space to copy it here). Thus in my view the only covers that meet WP:SONGCOVER are the ones mentioned in the Telegraph article. All of the others should be removed, in my view. I'll give them a while so more if a case can be made for the ones that don't yet meet WP:SONGCOVER, but in the end, they'll need to go if they still don't. Softlavender (talk) 04:14, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * No, the Telegraph article was not "just added", it was used in the article already, before the discussion here began. It was just not directly attached as a footnote to all the individual names. Something one should have been aware of when reading "every single citation" (see footnote 7 in ).


 * As far last.fm and diffuser.fm are concerned I somewhat agree that they don't look like particularly good sources. However arguing the "reliability" aspect of a source is a bit beside the point as long as they are only used for sourcing the existence, as the existence isn't really in question (you can simply look up the published record in doubt). As far as WP:RS is concerned pay attention to Identifying_reliable_sources in particular and also note that there is a Reliable sources/Noticeboard to get an assessment by a 3rd party (in particular with regard to the context). In any case the issue here is notability rather than reliability, not existence of the recording is in question but whether it is notable enough to be included in this article and this indirectly stems from the notability (impact factor, amount of readers, reputation, ...) of the source (author and publisher).


 * Overall as I stated before, personally I rather a see well structured and contextualized than one that follows WP:NSONGS in terms of notability to the letter. I guess in term of wikilawyering one could cite WP:IAR here, but then again this is leading us astray. From my perspective I rather see a better article (and leaving the author some leeway for that) than having an article where every mentioned artist/cover is wikilawyer proof, though I'm afraid we're heading for the latter here.--Kmhkmh (talk) 05:18, 7 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I disagree with Softlavender's argument above. This is not a question of whether or not the song "Moon River" is notable, and the argument you present above is irrelevant with respect to the list of covers.  Softlavender has not made a reasonable case for removing any of the examples referenced by Last fm and diffuser.fm.  Given the discussion above, any deletions by Softlavender would clearly be against the WP:CONSENSUS here. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:02, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

Progress
I've now sourced some of the cover versions to articles that name them as top covers. I eliminated many of those that seemed less important (feel free to restore any that you can reference with a source that mentions their importance), but we still need to add references for any of these versions by major stars that we wish to retain: Ann-Margret (1962), Lena Horne, Pat Boone (1963), Paul Anka, Vic Damone, Bobby Vinton (1965), Perry Como, Connie Francis, Johnny Mathis, Willie Nelson, Shirley Bassey, Rod Stewart and Barbra Streisand. [Edit - deleted all except last two, which are now referenced]. Softlavender, please give kmh or others at least a month to reference the rest before deleting anything else. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:50, 7 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I think a month is fair, but in reality it would be easier to remove and copy the whole mess here and only replace the ones that WP:SONGCOVER-compliant coverage can be found for. I think the only ones that currently meet WP:SONGCOVER are the ones mentioned in the Telegraph article (which is a WP:RS as defined by Wikipedia) you provided. See my notes above. I still don't see why anyone would want a massive wall-of-text coatrack (which itself is massively uninformative because of its size; it causes people's eyes to glaze over rather than to actually provide any useful encyclopedicly notable information). Softlavender (talk) 04:24, 7 January 2016 (UTC)


 * As noted above, I disagree with Softlavender's argument in the previous section, and in any case you are clearly in the minority here. Given the discussion in the previous section, any deletions by Softlavender would clearly be against the WP:CONSENSUS here. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:02, 7 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm confused. WP:SONGCOVER is a very clear guideline as to what covers are includible on articles about songs. Do you disagree with that? Softlavender (talk) 05:33, 7 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Clearly, all of the referenced examples are includible under WP:SONGCOVER, and I think that you are wasting everyone's time. Please stop now. The only covers in the article that are not yet fully referenced are those by Ann-Margret (1962), Lena Horne, Pat Boone (1963), Paul Anka, Vic Damone, Bobby Vinton (1965), Perry Como, Connie Francis, Johnny Mathis, Willie Nelson, Shirley Bassey, Rod Stewart and Barbra Streisand, and I think that all of them can be easily referenced, if someone is willing to do the google searches. [Edit - deleted all except last two, which are now referenced]. -- Ssilvers (talk) 05:54, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I disagree with you about the references meeting WP:SONGCOVER, which requires either multiple, non-trivial mentions in RS, or discussion by a RS on the subject of the song (see the text of WP:SONGCOVER posted above). I've done Control+F on all of the refs, and the mentions are only the title itself in all of the citations which are not RS discussing the song; there's no non-trivial coverage; some, such as these two , do not even mention the song. (The exception is the Mad Men reference, but it's only one RS, not multiple.) It's possible to find a citation of every single label-recording ever made of the song; verifying that the recording or performance existed does not equate to an inclusion criterion. The reason we have inclusion criteria is so that every single recording or performance ever made of the song does not end up on Wikipedia; as I mentioned in my OP above, that would be thousands of recordings. Right now the only covers that meet WP:SONGCOVER are the ones listed in the Telegraph, and arguably the ones on Buzzfeed and Diffuser.com. Softlavender (talk) 06:38, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * While your WP:NSONGS literalism is formally correct, I still don't get your larger point and constant "barbarians at the gate"-sentiment. There are neither ten thousands (as you stated further up) or thousands of recording you might need to be included, if WP:NSONG is not followed to the last epsilon. One of the current sources of the WP article (the Telegraph article) states that there around 500 recordings. The correct figure aside in any case there is consent that the mentioned recordings need to be notable (no matter whether the determination is strictly based on a literal reading of WP songs or a bit more general or generous notion of notability) and this already blocks huge numbers or the potential spam. Moreover imho from the readers perspective a few names more might be beneficiary if they are contextualized, i.e. if we provide the reader with an overview about the recordings from different decades and styles and how the song has been adapted to them, even if that might include a few names/recordings which are notable but maybe not notable in the literal WP:NSONG sense. However currently we seem to head for as small as possible uncontextualized list, where every entry conforms to the last epsilon of WP:NSONGS, I really fail to see, how that is the best article we could offer to readers.--Kmhkmh (talk) 01:20, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Carla Bruni
I've reverted an edit that added the Carla Bruni cover. Bruni's cover does not seem to meet WP:SONGCOVER, and it appears less important than the ones discussed above that were not included. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:46, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I somewhat disagree, Carla Bruni is quite a big name and she released on a single that was in the national charts. That seems to more than can be claimed for some of the other entries. In particular with judging the importance we should be careful for not creating an anglo-saxon (perception) bias.--Kmhkmh (talk) 11:19, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Do you think her recording is more important than those by Ann-Margret (1962), Lena Horne, Pat Boone (1963), Paul Anka, Vic Damone, Bobby Vinton (1965), Perry Como, Connie Francis, Johnny Mathis, Willie Nelson, and Shirley Bassey that were excluded from this article previously? If so, why?  Also, note that every other cover artist whose recording is mentioned in the article had a chart ranking very close to the top of the charts and that was referred to in multiple major news sources.  Where did Bruni's cover chart, how high on the chart was it, did it earn any grammys, what coverage have you found about it? -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:08, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
 * I may support to include some of the above, but that's a separate issue.
 * If anything I was comparing Bruni to other entries in the article (not deleted ones). As far as the charting of all those others is concerned, at first glance i somewhat doubt that, at least the current description has no information on that. There are personal selections published in media and the only recognizable criteria for buzzfeed/diffuser seems to be availability on youtube, but there is is no info whether all those performances where published as (charting) singles or just on an album or not at all but just publically performed. Maybe it is still true for all them, but that info seems neither in the source nor in the WP article.
 * As far as Bruni is concerned I've just seen the (sourced) info that was in the article.--Kmhkmh (talk) 04:34, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Topic
The article doesn't even bother do mention what the lyrics are actually about. --Anvilaquarius (talk) 15:10, 28 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Why don't you do some research to find sources that explain the meaning of the lyrics, then write a section about it, citing those sources. See WP:V for more information. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:19, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Ownership
I should have called the PlEaSe UsE tHe TaLk PaGe response. I satisfied both issues Ssilvers had with the first edit. I'm willing to pursue to WP:Ownership issue, since it appears he's having other editors make edits for him. - Seasider53 (talk) 10:56, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

R.E.M and language En.
Dear Seasider53, it appears that you wish to make two kinds of changes. The first is to add the unnecessary parameter language=En to two of the refs, which is not necessary in English language Wikipedia. Secondly, R.E.M.'s version of "Moon River" is mentioned, and properly referenced as being one of the notable covers of the song. However, you wish to add another ref to R.E.M.'s version that cites an extremely brief anecdote about R.E.M's lead singer's supposed belief that the song was about Huckleberry Hound, which is, in my opinion, not noteworthy and tangential to this article at best, distracting at worst. I do not believe that it belongs in the article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:14, 23 February 2021 (UTC)
 * You said it should be a footnote, so I made it a footnote. Should I check in with you tomorrow to see what your opinion is then? - Seasider53 (talk) 01:05, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

"Moon River (∞ Climax Mix)" from Bayonetta 2
Apparently the remix of the song used in Bayonetta 2 isn't "notable" enough to be included in the article, as well as the usage of the Andy Williams version in the game's credits. Can someone please elaborate as to why? - TomLegend101 (talk) 11:08, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Ssilvers just asks for discussion on the talk page as his edit summaries because, that way, he can just revert edits and thus maintain his WP:OWNERSHIP, as evidenced by the article's edit history. Seasider53 (talk) 15:13, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
 * See WP:IPC. If you look at the other references in this article, they are all top-10 charting recordings or items that are supported by sources that describe their noteworthiness.  This is a song that has been recorded by thousands of artists and referenced in hundreds or thousands of TV shows and other media.  We cannot mention them all.  The quality of the article is stronger if we mention only the extroadinarily noteworthy items. BTW, I did not write this article, I am only one of many contributors who came to the WP:CONSENSUS on this.  If you read the above discussion from 4 years ago, you will see that I took the middle path between an editor who wanted to delete all the song covers, and one who was more liberal about it.  See WP:SONGCOVER as well as WP:IPC. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:56, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok so if that's the case, then why does the article for "Fly Me to the Moon" mention the remix for that song in the first Bayonetta game, while THIS article doesn't do so for "Moon River"? -- TomLegend101 (talk) 13:49, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't think it should be mentioned there, and the reference given does not explain why it is noteworthy on that article. At least there it is sung by a notable person, but I don't think it passes WP:IPC or WP:NOTEWORTHY.  I think that it is generally very hard to establish that a song sung in a video game ought to be mentioned in an encyclopedia article unless the cover of the song became so popular that it separately charted, or unless it was clearly established that the song itself was the cause of a video game's becoming a massive hit, or there was some other indicia or noteworthiness. -- Ssilvers (talk) 19:13, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah but the “later versions” section of Fly Me to the Moon is longer than the relevant section for Moon River. -- TomLegend101 (talk) 22:37, 19 December 2021 (UTC)


 * I don't know what you are getting at, but this article is better written than "Fly Me to the Moon", partly because that article includes more poorly-referenced trivia. -- Ssilvers (talk) 23:28, 19 December 2021 (UTC)


 * What I meant to say was that there are more covers listed on the "Fly Me to the Moon" article than there are for "Moon River". And also the article for Bayonetta 2 itself mentions "Moon River" soooo...-- TomLegend101 (talk) 23:35, 19 December 2021 (UTC)


 * If you want examples of high quality content, review some WP:Featured Articles. One cannot draw any useful conclusions about encyclopedic quality from the fact that non-FA articles contain or don't contain particular content. -- Ssilvers (talk) 01:04, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Noteworthy qualifications
If Bayonetta 2's use is not noteworthy, then explain the inclusion of its reference in Fletch (first two words sung while Chevy Chase is getting a prostate exam) and Sarah Vaughan's cover (which did not chart, has no citations and isn't even referenced on her own page), and its inclusion in a single Mad Men episode.

Bayonetta 2 has sold over 1 million copies, won numerous awards and is renowned for its soundtrack. It has more right to be on this article than some of the covers that have been allowed to stay.

I'm not suggesting the mentioned ones should be removed (though I love Fletch, this does not count as a 'cover'), I'm saying that Bayonetta's inclusion of the song is as culturally significant as the aforementioned.

Review: Bayonetta 2 – Destructoid  https://www.nintendolife.com/reviews/wiiu/bayonetta_2 https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/bayonetta-2-for-wii-u 111.69.29.3 (talk) 15:50, 30 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for these cites. That is the right idea, as it is the burden of the person who wishes to add IPC items to show that the proposed item is noteworthy.  The Guardian and PC Mag are both WP:reliable sources, but neither of them mention the "Moon River" track, so it was not important to those reviewers.  In addition, you stated that the game is "wildly popular", but you have not provided WP:RSs that verify this. In summary, to show that the item is noteworthy, you need to cite independent, reliable sources that demonstrate (1) the importance of the game, and (2) the importance of the "Moon River" track to the game. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:05, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * So where are these sources fore the aforementioned? I would argue that there is less evidence to warrant the inclusion of Sarah Vaughan's cover, Sarah Brightman's cover, Chevy chases "cover" and the inclusion in Mad Men. There should be a consistent standard. 111.69.29.3 (talk) 16:07, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * These covers are specifically mentioned as significant in an article in The Telegraph. The use of the song in the Mad Men episode is discussed extensively in the review.  That is how Wikipedia works.  To understand this, please read WP:V and WP:IPC. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:39, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Telegraph reference - the article says that they exist, not that they are significant
 * Mad Men - Though used well, it basically says the song is used. It's also literally stated as an afterthough (as some other thoughts after the article)
 * This doesn't seem to be enough to say these are significant apart from the significance of the people that did the covers, or the media in which they were used.
 * Bayonetta 2's article has its review aggregates and accolades in its article, and I could use the citations there to claim the game itself is significant - by that token, the use of it should be as significant as these citations, since none of them say the covers by themselves were notable, just that they were used in other media. 111.69.29.3 (talk) 16:54, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * There is also the inclusions of the "cover" by Joan Rivers and references in the Simpsons and Sex and the City - why are these not in the article if Chevy Chase gets a mention? 111.69.29.3 (talk) 17:01, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I too have reservations on the Chevy Chase version, but it's included in a reliable source that is wholly about the song, so there is an good argument about it's impact. (There's a difference between an article about Fletch that says the song is used, and an article about Moon River that points to Fletch: one is reportage, one is highlighting the song's significance by giving a range of examples - it's that that highlight's the importance). Having said that, I find the Chase version borderline, but that's just me being a curmudgeon.The Mad Men article is very clear what the significance is, so I would dispute the characterisation of it as an afterthought that "basically says the song is used": it's much more than that. I'm struggling to see where it says there is anything about Bayonetta 2 that isn't any more than 'it is used', but if you could point that out to me, that would be great.One of the dangers on WP, particularly of songs, etc, if that any tiny reference to or use of the article subject gets inserted in there, without any regard as to whether it belongs there. To my mind things like the use in the video game is trivia, unless there is a secondary source that states the importance of it, or another newspaper, magazine or journal article on the song that refers to the songs breadth of impact and specifically mentions Bayonetta 2 in that respect. - SchroCat (talk) 17:36, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * User:Softlavender, User:Jack1956, User:Binksternet, or any others that have considered inclusion or not of specific covers, arrangements, etc. in this article, any comments? -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:55, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Can I propose a diplomatic answer?
 * "In other media, Lawrence Welk's 1961 instrumental version was featured in Mad Men season 6, episode 13, "In Care Of" (2013). A remix of the song features in the Bayonetta 2 soundtrack as Moon River (∞ Climax Mix)(citation), with the Andy Williams version playing over the closing credits." 111.69.29.3 (talk) 13:48, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * This is much worse, as you have removed the citation for Mad Men but have not added anything that we can review for Bayonetta 2. You really need to read WP:V] and WP:IPC to understand that the essential part of all this is the quality of the sources, and the discussion, in those sources, of the use of the song by Bayonetta 2, not what we write. -- Ssilvers (talk) 18:31, 5 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, conceding. I'm out. 111.69.29.3 (talk) 12:44, 7 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, you make some good points, but I'm still on the fence about the Fletch reference - I feel like including it for breadth kind of supports the idea that its use in the game also supports the song's cultural impact
 * I did find a review that references the song specifically, and this review is referenced in the Bayo 2 main article as well
 * https://www.destructoid.com/reviews/review-bayonetta-2/ 111.69.29.3 (talk) 18:36, 30 August 2023 (UTC)


 * (responding to ping) I stopped editing or looking at or watching this article in 2016 as soon as versions of the song were added based solely on those once-ubiquitous "listicle" articles which consist of little more than embedded YouTube videos (most of them copyrighted and many of them probably now deleted from YouTube) and nothing else. If we want to go back to the IMO actual strict inclusion criteria of WP:SONGCOVER (see my post here: and the link here ) and remove all of the trivia, I will participate in this discussion. Until then, I'm not interested in discussing or participating. Softlavender (talk) 02:03, 31 August 2023 (UTC)