Talk:Moorish Science Temple of America/archive 1

Peace.
I don't know if anyone else is watching this page. I'm working on some significant reworkings of the text, especially the Beginnings & Teachings sections. These are sections where I feel most comfortable making changes to the entry. There are other points that I feel perhaps should be changed, but it is possible that I am simply unaware of these matters. In particular, in the Practices section, I am wondering about the veracity of the statement that MST members might be given such titles as "Deacon, Exilarch, and Papessa." I have a feeling that this is info lifted from the "History and Catechism of the Moorish Orthodox Church," and is not derived from an actual Science Temple practice. Am I wrong? The rest of the Practices section perhaps could be spruced up, as well, although I don't feel I am necessarily the one to do it. cheers, Osman Malik Khan El —Preceding unsigned comment added by OsmanEl (talk • contribs) (19:00, 9 February 2005)

Sentence Needs Fixing
"Members of the Temple wore fezes, (including Drew, who wore a Cherokee feather in his) and often added the suffixes "-Bey" or "-El" to their names to signify their Moorish heritage, and could."

And could what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.188.116.130 (talk • contribs) (18:54, 18 October 2005)

"Deacon, Exilarch, and Papessa"
From all I've read from the MSTA (not the MOC), these ARE NOT Moorish Science titles. It must be understood that the MOC and Hakim Bey's writing contradicts much of what one will find in real MSTA sources, as well as what one finds in the declassified FBI investigation of the MSTA. For example the MOC Koran Questionaire Question 57 says: "57. Who were Adam and Eve? They are the mothers and fathers of the human family. Asiatics and Europeans." The MSTA version (as seen in FBI FOIA documents) says "Asiatics and Moslems" rather than Europeans. There is also no evidence from MSTA sources that they regard Celts as Persians, as is often said. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fouad Bey (talk • contribs) (16:02, 7 April 2006)
 * I have to agree about the issue of Moorish Titles. As far as the Free and National Names that members of the MSTA, El and Bey are the only two. There are then other religious titles that officiants take: Sheik, Sheikess, etc. This is a case of the internet rewriting history through received opinion. The History and Catechism of the MOC was and still is one of the docs you get the most hits for if you search for the Science Temple, and its text isn't entirely... err... scholastically historical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.223.234.241 (talk • contribs) (02:00, 4 June 2006)

NPOV Problem
Someone altered a paragraph which states that the MOC has done irreversible damage to MSTA scholarship. I'll admit that that is not a neutral point of view, but it has been altered in an equally biased fashion.


 * "Hakim Bey and the "Moorish Orthodox Church" has done much to introduce the history of the Temple to the general public. Some Moors have claimed that their writings have done some irreversible damage to scholarship. This has yet to be proven using the original writings of Prophet Noble Drew Ali."

Actually the original writings of Drew Ali, as well as what the present day MSTA teaches (whether the Kirkman-Bey faction, the Givens-El faction, the Mealy-El faction), are often highly at variance with the MOC and Hakim Bey's writing. In fact, there is no evidence that a "Moorish Orthodox Church" ever really existed prior to the 80's, just as there is no evidence of a person named Warren Tartaglia, or much of anything in the MOC's writings.

I think it is much safer to rely on the MSTA for information about itself, rather than unverifiable research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fouad Bey (talk • contribs) (16:17, 7 April 2006)

References to Drew Ali as a Prophet should be qualified
The subject headings and photo caption, in particular need to be reworked. See the Islam page, for example, to see how references to Muhammad as a prophet are handled. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nizamarain (talk • contribs) (14:12, 20 May 2007)