Talk:Mordvins/Archive 1

Mordvin (Mirde) peoples
The name of this section is rather dubious. Everyone wants to find an Erzya or Moksha link between the exonym Mordvin and a united people. Other Finno-Ugrian languages such as Mari, Udmurt and Komi have words marij, murt and mort which mean "person". The only word in Erzya or Moksha that comes close in form is the word "mir'd'e". This word, however, only bears the meaning "husband, male spouse". Yes, the Russian word "муж" is also translated as husband. If you want to look at definitions, then just take a gander at Mordwinisches Wörterbuch from the collection of dialects of the Moksha and Erzya by Heikki Paasonen (1990, 1992, 1994, 1996).Botuzhaleny-sodamo (talk) 12:15, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your info. I go sooner or later to Helsinki University Library. Finns have an old loan word marras of Baltic (Latvian / Lithuanian origin) for person which goes to the same category.

This seems to be a difficult task to provide the correct list of all Mordvin peoples. The first written mention of them is made by Herodotos c. 425-430 BC. under the name of Androfags, living west of Budins. According to old research of Finnish Eero Kuussaari published first in 1935 in Helsinki, where he compared the names written down by Herodotos to the areas where Finno Ugrian peoples lived behind the Scythians, he came to conclusion that Androfags were Proto Mordvins or to be correctly named Proto Mirdes (the humans). Melanklains were Proto Maris and Budins were Proto Ud-murts. This seems to be even today the most reliable source. Nobody have been able to prove his theory wrong. Herodotos understood wrongly the name Mirde or Mordi and named them in Greek language Androfags (man eaters) after what the Greeks living in the colonies in the northern shore of the Black Sea told him. Otherwise his list of "The peoples behind the Scythians between Danube and Don is quite accurace when compared to later historians, as example to Roman Mela in writing in c.100 AD.

During the times more and more evidence had been collected of Mirde people by others, later existed, historians of different ethnic origin. Usually the first written mention is said to be by Jordanes c. 350 AD. in his Ermanarik peoples. Jordanes listed Gothos, Scythas (meaning Slavonic peoples), Thiudos, Inaunxis, Vasinas, Broncas (or Bovoncas), Merens, Mordens (Remnis), Imnis, and Caris to be ruled by Ermanarik. This is the first written mention, according to the later produced Russian historical version, of the Mirdes which they called Mordva, but behind their back secretly "Poperetshje" (set across). Isigonus Niceanus told of Androfags "who drunk from their killed enemies skulls and used their killed enemies head skins for their magician seremonies". In 950 their land (The Rava / Rav heights) ie. the west bank, called Mordia by Arab historians. Marco Polo describes of Mordui and Plano Carpini of Morduani. All these were connected to Latin word Mort (Death), meaning people who brings the sure death to their opponents. However, there were (later) several Mirde peoples who spoked different dialects of Proto Mirde (Mordva) language. Meshtsheras who lived in the low land forests and bogs between Kliazma and Oka Rivers. They were the main group of inhabitants of ancient Muromi, Meshtsheri Hillfort highland area and Räsan (Russian version of Räsan become later Riazan or Rjazan) principalities. Mokshas who lived in western part of the Rava (Volga) Heights, and Erzas who lived in the eastern part of the Rav (Volga) heights. South of both these poeples lived little known Burttas which may have been mixture of Mokshas and Erzas, mainly in the Tambov, Penza, and Saratuva / Saratuba areas along the Rivers Erzula and along Rava Igriz east of Rav River. This was the southern limit which was inhabited by the Finno Ugrians in Rava / Rav (later Volga) River area.

During the time of the Great Peoples Wandering, some Finnish sources, based to old names of the peoples in Eastern Central Europe, suggest that at least part of the Mirdes joined the wanderers and eventually settled themselves to Pannonia and Bohemia with other ancient Finno Ugrian tribes.

The first major chance happened in c. 650 when the three Hunnic tribes which later formed the Itil Bolghars penetrated along the east bank of Itil (Volga) to the south of the confluence of the Itil (Volga) and Kama Rivers and formed there their Kingdom of Great Itil (Volga) Bolgharia. The Mirdes who lived on the Rava Heights had close connections with the Bolghars and this peaceful connection remained up to the destruction of Itil Bolgharia in 1237. But the main threat come from the western direction. As a result of the threat of wandering steppe peoples, the Kievan Slavs started to wander eastward to the west bank of River Don (Tanais) middle course. This happened c. 700-800. After the defeat of Vjatitsis (another Valgia (Volga) Finnish people) to Kievan Prince Svjatoslav in fearce battles in 965 and 966 and to the Vladimir I in 981, the Slavs entered in larger numbers to the upper course of River Oka and established their first settlements to Räsan principality. Räsan, and later Muromi become their major places with first direct trade connection with the Merdi peoples. It is from this period when the first Mirde saying of the Slavs have been preserved to history: "minor in arms but plenty of men". In the north the Norsemen origin Slav Princes with assistance of new Norsemen from Baltic Sea area entered to Meriland (Merjaland), north of the Mirdeland, and entered from the north to the Kliazma River and founded Vladimir, or actually Volodmerj (Ruler of Merja) in the place of former Meriland capital Rosta. This was the typical Slav pattern to settle themselves, at first in small numbers, to existing Finno Ugrian villages, trading settlements and even near hillforts to have protection, but then inwandere in greater numbers and settle themselves in their new built Slav villages and outnumber the existing (good in arms but minor in men) Finno Ugrian population. This method of Slavonic penetration has continued ever since. However, some historians locate, according to the name, Rosta to the site of Rostov at the shore of Lake Nero, which was earlier in Finno Urgian times called Lake Mero or Meri after the Meris, "The people of great lakes".

Created image for the article
I chose the 4 most famous and recognizable Mordvins and created an image with them. I think it looks good and there are no license problems with it, so now this article to has it's image. M.V.E.i. 16:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Title
Dear contributors, Very much appreciate your efforts but. There is a misunderstanding in the very title of the article. I am Mokshan and believe I never seen people you call Mordvins. Still there are no ethnic Czechoslovaks or Khanty-Mansis. Russians never cared about that and used to call Mokshans and Erzyans just Mordvins. In fact believe me Mokshans do not understand Erzyan language though both languages are close as they are Mordvinic branch of Fenno-Volgaics. Please help me to split the article into two parts. It was great you mentioned famous Mokshans and Erzyans among 'Mordvins'. I'm still not good at using all Wikipedia tools but hope to improve in using them soon. Pls have a look at my rough description of Mokshan people (I put the link into the article 'Mordvins') and advise if we can settle the misunderstaning. Thanx in advance --Numulunj pilgae 08:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello. I would like to quote some discussion about the page move at User talk:Untifler:


 * "First of all, it is absolutely incorrect to move 'Morvins' to 'Volgaic Finns', due to classification:"


 * "There are two general branches of the Finnic peoples in the region: Uralian Finns: Udmurts and Komi (1) and Volga Finns, including Mordvin peoples and Mari peoples, as well as Muroma, Meshchera and Merya in the Middle Ages (2). Volga Finns, in turn, are divided into Northern - Mari peoples (Hill, Meadow and Eastern; possibly this group also included Merya) and southern Volga Finns, which are   Mordvin peoples Moksha and Erzya, and three subgroups, which are also belong either to Moksha or to Eryza; historically this group included Muroma and Meshchera, (however, it is disputed). The classification is such, but I m not sure that all terms I use are correct..."


 * "So, as you see, Mokshans and Eryzas are included firstly to the Mordvin peoples, and only then Mordvin peoples are included to the Volga Finns. Another dispute is 'are Mokshans and Erzyans separate people, or subgroups only'? I really dont know, what POV prevails now. Surely, both POVs exist, and it should be mentioned in all articles. As for Maris, they are used to be divided to @subgroups@, not 'peoples'. Mainly, the concept of 'two peoples' and disuse of 'Mordvin' term is likely to Mordvin (sorry, Moksha and Erzya) schlars themselves, whereas Russian classification prefer to use cupola term 'Mordvins'."


 * "As result, This page should be switched back to 'Mordvins' or 'Mordvin peoples', as this term is widely used, and 'Volgaic Finns' should be rewritten to include more about Maris, and historical Volga Finnic peoples.--Üñţïf̣ļëŗ ( see also: ә? Ә!) 08:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)"


 * Because of this, I will be moving this page back to its original title, and will create a new Volga Finns page. Khoikhoi 09:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree with Untifler reg Volga Finns. This information can be easily proved by Encyclopaedia Britannica. As to Mordvin peoples pls look at these two docs from suri.ee below. The problem is first it was banned in USSR to use term 'finno-ugric' referring to Moksha and Erzya (political grounds). Mordvinian okrug first was planned to be named (Erzyano-mokshanskiy) Erzya and Moksha okrug but in 1930 some Mr. Surdin proposed to shorten the okrug name. This was the year this misunderstanding was born. Before 1930 term "Mordvins" was used referring to Erzya only (it can be easily proved starting from old Russian chronicles as Khazar II mentioned below). Generally situation is as following: Moksha and Erzya do not doubt they are separate peoples, just look at official Mordvinian Appeal but other sources do not give clear information what Mordvins are as they are not sure after all this confusion: one republic but two peoples or one people with two names, etc., look at suri.ee description. It is not the same as with Maris as all groups of Maris call themselves  'Mary' but Moksha and Erzya call themselves Moksha and Erzya. So, my conclusion is we may not leave this article as it or else this 70-years old confusion is gonna stay forever.--Numulunj pilgae 13:54, 2 July 2008 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Numulunj pilgae (talk • contribs)

Moksha and Ersa Languages
My idea is to provide some kind of reliable article of both "Rava / Rav cousins" by expanding the historical article up to the October Revolution 1917. However, according to the Finnish sources both Ersas and Mokshas spoked up to 1242 nearly similar Proto Mirde language but with different dialects. In addition there were Burtta dialect which had more loan words from Skyytta ( Scythian ) language and by now dissapeared Metsheri, Muromi and Vjatitsi languages which of which Metsheri and Muromi languages were dialects of Proto Mirde / Merdi (men) language. Thus all these dialects might be placed under one title Mirde ( Merdi ) People up to 1242, the nearly total destruction of Mirde ( Merdi ) people by the Mongols during the Great Rebellion against the Mongol War Lords. Only after 1242 Moksha and Ersa languages separated from each other. The similar pattern was also found between Estonian and Finnish languages in the Baltic Sea Area. I agree that after 1242 both Ersa and Moksha languages should be described separately from each other. Metsheri language with refugees from Oka valley and Metsheri ( Russian version: Meshchorsk ) Lowland brought Metsheri influence to Moksha language. It is really a pity that the Russians had not taken any notes of separate Moksha and Ersa languages and called all under the name Mordva and even named the land as Mordovia. The same apply to the Big Russians who do not know their own history well in the Moskova area before the Mongol Invasion. What is known here in Finland is that the best of Mirde ( Merdi ) warriors, about 25.000 were executed by the Mongol War Lord Subutai when they refused to follow the Mongol Army west of Dinjeper ( Dnjeper ) after taking part of the conquering the Kyjev ( Kiev ) in December 1240. Then there is a big question mark how many of the Mokshas adopted with the refugee Metsheris and Muromis the Turkic Tatar language in 1242-1451 and were converted to the Musulmanni ( Islam ) Faith and escaped East of Rava and become known as Mishär ( Shining ) Tatars. But any way, the old religion Gods remained the same with both Ersa and Moksha languages with different variation names. Some of Mishär Tatars stayed West of Rava / Rav ( Volga ) and their descendants live still there in Mishär Tatar villages among the Mokshas and Ersas. One problem is also the great influence of pro Russian history writing which has been learned as a pure fact in the schools and universities. Ones again, this history of the peoples in the Rava / Rav Bend is one of the most complicated in land of Rosh ( Russia ). I think those who can nowadays be called Mordvians are those Russificated Mokshas and Ersas from Obranjosh ( Nizhnij Novgorod ) area who live in Nizhnij Novgorod Oblast and speak Russian as their primary language.

Peharps one can also found out if Vladimir Iljitsh Uljanin was of origin Moksha or Ersa from one of Uljanin named villages. His father changed his name from Uljanin to Uljanov. Maybe the most famous of Mordvins in modern history. Also old famous Mirde ( Princes ) Inazörs as Abram ( Obram ) and Purgaz are missing from the list.

Why have removed clause about Erzua people?
Hello! There is a reasonable question why my clause about Erzia people has been redirected on Mordvins? Such people is not present, therefore, I consider, that it is not correct. эрзяне do not name itself a nickname and pseudo etnonims "mordvins". Especially on page of discussion quite correctly it is written - such people is not present. What for then to mix 4 people in a heap? As there are two languages - Moksha and Erya Languages, but "Mordovian" are not present. And a parameter of people is its language. I ask to explain your position. Many thanks. Erzianj jurnalist (talk) 18:46, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Mordvins
Term "moksherzyan" as well as "erzyamokshan" are rarely used in Moksha and Erzya newspapers when translating texts from Russian instead "Mordvins". Originally this was Erzya who referred to as Mordvins and it can be easily proved by old Russian chronicles and other medieval sources. After establishing Mordvinia okrug (later Mordvinian autonomous republic) many people (ethnic Moksha, Erzya, Shokhsa, Mishari Tatars, Russians etc.) who were born there and later moved to another place started to call themselves Mordvins as they originally came from Mordvinia.--Khazar II (talk) 20:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Mokshas are not mordvins
I am ethnic Moksha born in Mordovia. I think this is a total misunderstanding. If part of Mokshas live in Mordovia it doesn't mean Mokshas are Mordvins. If speaking of those who live in Mordovia - yes you can call those Erzyas, Mokshas, Tatars and Russians "Mordovians" but this not an ethnic unity, it is clear. What is the problem about my people. Moksha are people with their own language, traditions and culture but I can see information on Moksha only in article "Mordvins". Why? I saw history log, page "Moksha people" was even deleted by some user. This is vandalism! Kranch 17:53, 02 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It completely agree, it is vandalism! I am Erzya, and my ancestors were erzyans'. And language at us erzyan, any people mordva is not present also language too Mordovian. And that territorially Mordovia has included two ethnic nationalities is history a mistake because all over again wished to make district Erzjansko-Mokshanskiy, but have made Mordovian. I for returning of pages Erzya people and Moksha people, differently am not the free encyclopedia, and continuous dancing "under a pipe of authority". Thanks. Erzianj jurnalist (talk) 20:40, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Why don't we start by providing reliable sources instead of personal accounts. For example, the Mordvin article from Encyclopædia Britannica says, "They are divided into two dialect groups, the Moksha and Erzya." Khoikhoi 22:05, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Back to our discussion I would like to emphasize all reliable sources are just copying official Russian Federation information on RF administrative subdivision. Since there is Mordovia Republic we must admit there is ethnic population with the same name speaking Mordvin language. Mordvin is an alternative name for Erzya language see Ethnologue. Since Ethnologue is a reliable source we must redirect article Mordvin(s) to Erzia (people) respectively with proper explanation of this alternate name history background. --Khazar II (talk) 12:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Ethnologue has information on a lot of different languages, but they don't necessarily keep it up to date nor do they check their sources. The first translation of the Gospel into Erzya dates back to 1821 and the remainder of the New Testament to about 1827. For some reason Ethnologue claims a translation in 1824. |New Testament in Erzya from 1821 and 1827.
 * Perhaps, the fact that translations of literature and the literature of public education have been split in two for two centuries, and the fact that even today there are native publications in Erzya and Moksha but none in a language called Mordvin means something in terms of national identity. In the Mordovian Republic where the Mokshas, Shokshas, Erzyas and Teryukhans make up about one third of the population, Moksha-language publications include Moksha, Jaksterj täshtenä and Mokshenj pravda, and Erzya-language publications include Sjatko, Chilisema, (mixed Erzya and Russian) Erzian Mastor and Erzjanj pravda.Botuzhaleny-sodamo (talk) 12:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Why no one speaks Mordvinian? Mordvins do not exist
Please read this--Numulunj pilgae 15:51, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

um, we state it's an exonym. What is your problem? dab (𒁳) 17:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Dbachmann, If Ethnologue is a reliable sourse I would suggest to use exonym Mordvin for Erzya only and exonym Mordvin-Moksha for Moksha as it stated in Ethnologue. It is not a problem to collect at least this much info you now have in article Mordvins for Moksha people only. Hope it is now clear for all of us Moksha and Erzya are separate peoples speaking separate languages. Well, let us discuss what sources are reliable. Finno-Ugric Society materials hope are a reliable source, what about Helsinki and Mordvovian University materials? If it was a "broken English" in article Moksha people I guess you had to warn users they have to make appropriate amendments. Kranch 08:20, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Erzyans itself name erzya, instead of mordva (so name us other people!). It is not necessary to confuse: mokshans is moksha, erzyan is erzya, and mordva are people which live in territory of Mordovia, and this collective, instead of a nationality! Thanks for understanding. Erzianj jurnalist (talk) 10:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

it appears that the claim that Mordvins is an exonym was false. I have no added actual references to this article. We have a 19th century source stating that Mordvin is the native name. It is perhaps not used natively any more (reference?). It was clear from the beginning that Moksha and Erzya are different groups. The references we now have state that there are in fact five different Mordvin groups, of which Moksha and Erzya are the largest two. They are still treated together, under the heading "Mordvins", in every source we have. Now please feel free to quote further references, but be aware of WP:V and WP:RS. I have merged two stubs that didn't quote a single source. If you create stubs without sources, you need to except they'll be merged or deleted without further notice. If we find a monographic discussion of either group, we can of course still branch out a standalone article. It's all a matter of sources. dab (𒁳) 09:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * 15 references/links in Russian wikipedia article Мокша (народ) with every single word proved I believe by reliable sources. We can use them in English Wiki. Why five different Mordvin groups? You mean Shoksha, Qaratay, Teryukhan? They are not referred to as separate groups or peoples. Mordvin been never used natively and there is no equivalent neither in Moksha nor in Erzya. Moksha and Erzya are separate peoples but not groups. Let us discuss what sources are reliable. Pls have a look at Russian Wikipedia article Moksha people I will be happy to comment on most sources metioned. --Numulunj pilgae 18:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Ersas and Mokshas
It is sometimes difficult to be of Finno Ugrian origin. If the cultural differences are so great that those living in the western part of Rava / Rav upland against those living mainly in the eastern part of of the Rava / Rav upland that they cannot understand each others, this separation must have started sometimes during 900 - 1200. As outsider I suppose that an example of common language backround must be shown.

I show with example the difference between todays Finnish, Estonian, Komi, Udmurt, Eastern-Mari and Ersa languages on simple way. Here it comes.
 * One is yksi in Finnish, yks in Estonian, tev in Komi, odug in Udmurt, ik in Mari, vejke (ve) in Ersa.
 * Two is kaksi in Finnish, kaks in Estonian,kyk in Komi, kyk in Udmurt, kok in Mari, kavto in Ersa.
 * Three is kolme in Finnish, kolm in Estonian, kuim in Komi, kuin in Udmurt, kum in Mari, kolmo in Ersa.
 * Four is neljä in Finnish, neli in Estonian, nel in Komi, njul in Udmurt, nyl in Mari, nile in Ersa.
 * Five is viisi in Finnish, viis in Estonian, vit in Komi, vit in Udmurt, vitsh in Mari, vetje in Ersa.
 * Six is kuusi in Finnish, kuus in Estonian, kwat in Komi, kuat in Udmurt, kud in Mari, koto in Ersa.
 * Seven is seitsemän in Finnish, seitsen in Estonian, sisem in Komi, sizjym in Udmurt, shym in Mari, sisem in Ersa.
 * Eight is kahdeksan in Finnish, kaheksa in Estonian, kekjamus in Komi, tjamys in Udmurt, kandash in Mari, kavsko in Ersa.
 * Nine is yhdeksän in Finnish, yheksä in Estonian, ekmus in Komi, ukmus in Udmurt, indesh in Mari, vejksje in Ersa.
 * Ten is kymmenen in Finnish, kymmen in Estonia, das in Komi, das in Udmurt, lu in Mari, kemen in Ersa.
 * Hundred is sata in Finnish, sada in Estonian, se in Komi, sju in Udmurt, sjado in Ersa.
 * Thousand is tuhat in Finnish, tuhanne in Estonian, sjurs in Komi, sjurs in Udmurt, tjezha in Ersa.

I suppose that the difference between Ersa and Moksha is not so great than between Permian Komi and Baltic Finnish. I am not sure if the Estonian words are all in correct form, but as one can see they are very close of Finnish. Sata (hundred) in Finnish comes from ancient Persian language for a hundred.

If you are taken the cultural differences between Tver Karelians living at Ruameska 200 km north west of Moskova and True Finns living at Loimaa 65 north east of Turku I suppose that despite the common basic mother language they do not understand each others at ones, but within a month they found more and more common souding words despite of strong Russian language influence in Tver Karelian dialect. One have strong Greek Orthodox cultural backround and the other one has Lutherian cultural heritage. So what is really the difference between Ersas and Mokshas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.117.248 (talk) 20:13, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi,

Difference between Moksha and Erzya is pretty big. Separation of Moksha probably began about 1500 BC. They had different burial traditons. See citation from László Klima "The Erza and the Moksha can be archaeologically distinguished by the differing orientation of their burials in ancient Mordvin cemeteries, as well as by the presence of various elements of the Erza and Moksha costume in ancient Mordvin cemeteries from the mid-1st century AD – in other words, the finds that can be associated with the ancestors of the Moksha and the Erza can be separated well before these two peoples are actually mentioned in the written sources." The numerals are almost the same. Compare with Vedic-Sanskrite (which in turn seems to have mixture of pre Dradidian and Indo-Iranian languages) which gives for intersted people direct link to ancient Indus Valley Civilization flourished at Harappa and its sub-culture the Kulli Culture which flourished in Indus valley c. 3300 - 1500 BC, before being destroyed by the Indo-Iranian nomandic tribes. One of the Dravidian languages which are supposedly been spoken before the Veda-Sanskrite in the area. It has, as noted by one Japanese linguist direct connection to Finno Ugrian language family. In addition, the link can be found through the Tarim mummies and Turpan Mummies. See also Siberian Ice Princess at Pazyryk valley. The Dravidian language is supposed to come with refugees to the area and mixed with the Finno Ugrian languages before the Turkic Altaic languages. These mummies are tried to be connected with the Scythians which have also partly Finno Ugrian roots. This is been proved in the names of early Scythian kings such as Partatai, the full Bearded.
 * 1 - fkä; eka
 * 2 - kafta; dva
 * 3 - kolma; tri
 * 4 - nilä; catur
 * 5 - vetä; penca
 * 6 - kota; sas
 * 7 - sisäm; sapta
 * 8 - kafksa; asta
 * 9 - vejxksa; nava
 * 10 - kemänj; dasa
 * 100 - sjada; satam
 * 1000 - tjozhanj; ?

such words as 'tavar', 'maksa', 'selmävedj' are easy-to-guess for a Finnish speaker

but
 * time is 'shka' in Erzya and 'pingä' in Moksha, aika in Finnish
 * lamb is 'reve' in Erzya and 'ucha' in Moksha, lammas in Finnish
 * love is 'vechkoma' in Erzya and 'keljgäma' in Moksha, rakkaus in Finnish (but see below)
 * cow is 'skal' in Erzya and 'traks' in Moksha lehmä or nauta in Finnish
 * lovazha is 'bone' in Erzya and 'dead body' in Moksha, luu in Finnish but kalmo, ruumis, marras for dead body etc.

different number of cases, differencies in grammar and most of all in phonetics and pronunciation/intonation. They always speak Russian when contacting each other, very rarely speak either Moksha or Erzya and only if all speakers know this or that language. The difference is in hair colour, even faces but mostly mentality. Historically they had different allies and been at war several times in the Middle Ages. After Christinization both had became Orthodox christians but in fact continued with their old pagan rites named "koj (law, canon)". Marriage to Erzya woman was always a taboo for Moksha and vice versa. Even now Russian or Tatar spouse seems to be preferrable. When Lutheran church came to Mordovia in 1990s they had to split it into Moksha and Erzya Lutheran Churches. Erzyas are vivid and active, Mokshas are calm and stubborn. That is why we say we have nothing in common. --Khazar II (talk) 23:06, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

These are Vedic-Sanskrit words for:
 * father; pitár-
 * mother; mätar-
 * brother; brätar-
 * sister; svasi-
 * horse; asva
 * cow; gáus
 * voice (ääni); väk
 * name; näman
 * to milk; marjati

Quite similar than later spoked Tocharian language on the places of earlier supposed "alkukoti" (urheimat) of Finno Ugrians. I remember when looking the exellent Japanese TV serie of the Silk Road the Uigur language which sounded to my ears just like Finno Ugrian when the local Uigur (pronounced Vigur) guide took the Japanese in one cave to see ancient wall paintings in one cave shouting: Tulkaa tänne, löysin jotain. ( Hei, come here, found something.) Many other Finns observed the same thing when discussing over this episode in morning coffee break at work.

If regarded as shown I can also say that there are at least five main Finnish languages when talking of different dialects. The describtion of Ersas (Erza) and Moksas (Moksha) is as Karelians and Häme peoples. When (slow) Häme still thinks how to do it, the (fast) Karelian have already done it. If I want to speak the sixth "inlandish", I go to Ekenes / Tammisaari (Oak Island) 110 km out of Helsinki. There still more than 60 per cent have their mother language "the second offical" ie. Sweden, and it is quaranteed in Finland´s language law that they must have all public services with their own mother language. The same in Lappland´s four most northern boroughs with Saame (Loparskij) language. As ironic situation as I would have to change to Swedish when talking with Savo people (mixture of Häme and Karelian). Only Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians use their own versions of Suomi (Soome, Someja, Sumeja), all others use Swedish version Finland. The Finn who cannot Swedish language and is unable to read and write it satisfacrory is not permitted to stay and live in self governing Åland / Ahvenanmaa Islands. Multiface Suomi / Finland. I have seen many times personally what it was when there were three villages in same mountain valley and three religions; Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox and Islam. Despite being known with different names, Croats, Serbs, and Bosnjakis all spoked same serbokroatia with different dialects and never married cross the tabu border. This in Bosnia during Tito era.

Nikon is directly connected with Finland, Moksha and Russian history. I give the details of this little known story later. What about famous Terjuhans? I know at least two, possible three of them. There were also Finnish (Karelian) Greek Orthodox population in at least five villages, moved to area in 1650´s. Shoksha´s were are also mentioned being owned "souls" of Moskoviitti (Muscovite) noble families, not serfs of Russian state as the remnants of Ersas and Mokshas which were left i Mordovia after the main Mordvin exodus to the east after Stenka Razin´s revolt. Cheers.

There are two really international matters in the world, commerce and love. For love this: Lempi leimahti lieskuen lempiväisten nuorten sinisistä silmistä Lempaalan Lemmenjoen katveessa. Cannot be translated in proper English but; lempi (ljuba) is common with lighting looks from yangsters blue eyes at Lempaala (former Ingrian village in Southern (Karelian) Isthmus) Love River´s shore. For commercial: On aika maksaa turkislasku, joten maksa se lasku Bolgarin kauppiaalle. (It is time to pay the fur bill, thus pay the bill to Bolgar trader.) For religion: Pappilan apupapin papupata pankolla porisee ja paukkuu. (Rectory´s vice priest´s bean pot at stake bubbles and cracks).

Thanks for adding Moksha figures. Tavara (goods) is the same. Lasku (bill) and maksu (payment) are same also in modern Latvian language for Väinäjoki (Daugava) route. What I am trying to say, there have been common commercial language along the river trade routes, the language which all understood as early as when fur and slave trade to the southern direction become profitable. And for sure it was not ancient Russian which flourished.


 * Yes! Very interesting. I guess you are right talking of this trade language. Did you meet any loans in Varangian talk or old Swedish? How about Finnish/Finnic mercenaries in Byzanthia coming together with Varangians? Numulunj pilgae (talk)16:23, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Some sources may connect Mordvins among the mercenary soldiers of in Byzanticum army. At least with connection the capturing Crete.


 * Varjaagis were commercial tradesmen who travelled with their ships along the Rushland rivers from Baltic Sea area to the Caspian and Black Sea in connection with the trade with Persians and Constaninople. There has been an eternal bitter fight between the "western" and "eastern" theory supporters of their origin of both theories, mainly Russian and Scandinavians, which both want to own these people as part of their heritage. For more reading click Rurik Novgorod in English Wikipedia. See the latest DNA research mentioned in sources. For Varjaags click Ibn Fadlan and his Risala to Rav / Rava Bolgharia in 921 -922. The best transliteration with explanations from Arabia is by Cambridge Arabist James E. Montgomery. Some habits and dressing he could not explaine in satisfactory ways, but linking these to Finno Ugrians, all is water clear. You find there the Tuonelan velhotar preparing the Varjaagi chieftain to his traver to Tuonelan tuville.

http://www.palladiumkirjat.fi/jattilaisten_maa.htm
 * Try by clicking in Wikipedia the title: Jättiläisten maa Vendien ja vandaalien muinaishistoria.

This lead to Finnish Wikipedia where a part of the text of this now outsold edition of book is explained. Because non of the indo-eutopean scholar have paid any attention, because they do not commonly speak any of Finno Ugrian languages this source is not mentioned at all as a good source to Europan pre history. There you find out from which origin Vendis and Vandales really come by linking the ancient names by meanings to language showing also from which sources they were mentioned the first time and how they developed to current form. Chapter: Sanat / Synnyt.


 * The text is unfortunately only in Finnish but I am sure you get out of it the pre indo-european connection liks to various places and peoples in Europe. Worth of transliteration to both Ersa and Moksa languages in Saransk University.

Information in this article is incorrect
Erzyas do not live in the basin of the Moksha River. Separation of Erzya and Moksha is not dated 8th century, it happened much earlier. Qaratay ancestors didn't live in the territory of Tatarstan and were not assimilated by Tatars. What sources confirm this dubiuos information? --Numulunj pilgae 08:18, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

can we calm down please?
There is no reason to turn this into a wikidrama. Here are the facts: There isn't a dispute. This is simply a question of, should we keep a sub-stub at Moksha people, or should we turn it into a R with possibilities until somebody sits down and presents references dealing with the Moksha people specifically? For the record, these are the articles as I found them:. Not a single verifiable reference. The burden to present sources dedicated to the respective groups lies with whoever insists on establishing these as standalone articles. --dab (𒁳) 08:58, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * there are two peoples of Volga-Finns, the Moksha and the Erzya, which are discussed together as "Mordvins" in ethnological literature.
 * It isn't disputed that they are actually two people, it's just that they are mostly discussed together. This article clearly states that they are separate groups, and that "Mordvins" is an exonym.
 * the Moksha people and Erzya people articles were unreferenced stubs which both basically just said that each is a group of Mordvins. No information is lost by merging these stubs into this article here.


 * ok, so at least according to Latham Mordvin isn't an exonym at all, but a self-designation meaning "men". I have updated the article accordingly. --dab (𒁳) 09:25, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe we all are calm like camels.


 * "there are two peoples of Volga-Finns, the Moksha and the Erzya,which are discussed together as "Mordvins" in ethnological literature" Agree. But they are not groups. If Mordvins is an exonym ther is no room for two. Why not to use last period of time exonyms Moksha Mordvin and Erzya Mordvin. Exonym Mordvin for both Moksha and Erzya last time used as you noted in 19 c.
 * we should keep a sub-stub of course. We could at least discuss sources on Moksha people discussion page. Please start checking those mentioned in Russian Wiki.
 * Agree there were no references. Will add them. I insist on establishing these as standalone articles!
 * Judith Latham? Well ok. I am Moksha beleive me Mordvin doesn't mean men in my language. It means nothing. --Numulunj pilgae 18:04, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Just a small correction to Dbachmann's comment: there are actually three peoples of Volga Finns, see Maris. Khoikhoi 23:39, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Mari people need much more larger article to be created in Wikipedia. Peharps make a link with combined historical facts with Ersas, Mokshas and Udmurts.

Yes, not turn this to eternal drama between the Finno - Ugrians
My meaning was not at all provocate anyone, just show some facts. I am keen interested to know when the separation between the Ersa and Moksha languages really happened. All available written sources before 1250 talk of Mordvas in various forms, not about Ersa and Moksha peoples. The names have always been problem for "outlandish" writers, such as Marco Polo and Plano Caprini. These are the only available western observers written sources. There are some notable describtions of the Varjags in Itil Bolgharia written by Persian and Arab travellers, but the mentions of Mordvas play a side role in their describtions. The Nestor Chronicle can be forgotten as a reliable source, because he and his fellow monks wrote down every lie which were told to them. Curiously, after this "First Kievan Chronicle" it took more than 700 hundred years before next notable Russian historian appeared in the scene. And he was Mordva as he described himself to his fellow members in St.Petersburg´s societies. And this is a written fact in history. At least I have never claimed that Ersas lived on the cource of Moksha River. The lived east of Mokshas who inhabited among others the course of Moksha from the confluence of Oka to its upper course in now a days Penza Oblast.

What I am missing in main article or sub article (just to be created) is the more detailed describtion in which were and are the Ersa and Moksha and Misär Tatar inhabited villages.

From other sources is well known that Shokshas (Russian way to write the name) were Ersas living west of Moksha River but east of Jertish River. Surrounded in north by Russian built fortificated places just like Sorminskij Majdan, Polhovskij Majdan, in west by Poljanki Majdan and in the middle of the area Sakajevskij Majdan. I can find the following villages and settlements;
 * Takushevo, Vendenjapino, Nagornaja, Sadovyj, Star.Katsejevka, Beresovo, Feklusov, Nov.Katsejevka, Aleksandrovka, Telimerki, Krasn.Jar, Vjasga, Shelubej, Mokshanka, Bereznjak, Kurajevo, Narobatovo, Bajevo, Tengushevo, Bashkirtsy, Vitskidejevo, Atenino, Dudnikovo, Sakajevskij Majdan, Sakajevo, Kulikovo, Poljarnaja Zvezda, Shiromasovo, Shoksha, Mal.Shoksha, Melsetjevo, and Kolomasovo.

Which of these were Russian and Ersa villages? It is this kind of information the main article needs. Of course this is only my opinion, but in general little is known, too little, of Mordvins (which should cover all).

Then, Qaratai is newly formed Tatar language version. Older (in latin alphabets) is Karatai. At least I have never claimed that Karatais originate from Tatars. They are Tatarized (Ersa or Moksha?) Mordvins (in Finnish: Mordvalaiset are divided to Ersa and Moksa). There are wild claims presented that they originates from Hasaris and are of Moses religion in faith.

When just looked to maps I found these Karatai villages:

On the west side of Rava in Tatarstan; Zajevrazhnij-Karatai, Mordovskij-Karatai. Both population 101-500. East side of Itil; Mukshin-Karatai, and Zaj-Karatai, the former 101-500 inhabitants, the latter 1001- inhabitants. In addition there is a village Karashai-Saklovo near Tljantse-Tamak, but this might not be Karatai village.

Can we all agree that Terjuhans are of origin Mordvins (Ersa & Moksha) who speak Russian as their first language and have no knowledge of Ersa or Moksha language or just a little.

Could you just include in article a mention Saransk / Saran Osh was founded at the site of former Russian fortification Atemarsk in 1641. Town from 1651. Thank you. I will expand the article of Inäzor Purgas. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.117.248 (talk) 17:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Dear Contributor, I didn't mean you saying "This article is incorrect". I meant the article Mordvins. It is all very interesting you wrote about. Your information is very precise and seems you spent quite long time to pick up such details. Will try to check and comment on which exactly villages are Shokshan. Still thinking over all that information you provided here. Don't you have material to start article of Mokshan Prince Puresh? " Numulunj pilgae (Talk)

Some information is available of Inäzor Puresh as well, but not much. The main thing what made both Inäzors enemies was the control of the North - South trading route. Purgaz, who controlled the confluence of Rava and Oka collected taxes from traders from Bagdad Califate, Byzantium (East Roman Empire) and Persia when they passed Obran Osh. Puresh who controlled partly the Baltic - Black Sea trading route from Oka to upper Don wanted to share the whole control of the whole route not only the Baltic - Black Sea trade. But as far as it is known, both took part to prevent the Mongol army to enter to Itil Bolgharia in 1223 which they actually did in the Battle of Itil and Subutai had to retreat back to steppes. This short armistice did not last long and Puresh is said to be killed in the fierce battle of Bundaz (also known as the Battle of Ozuga) at Sura River at the site of now a days Zolotarjevka near Penza where Mongols killed all the defenders (both Mokshas and Burttas) and complete destroyed town of Ozuga. There is not mention of any kind in Russian old sources, but the Russian Princes did not participate in this battle in August 1237. Inäzor Puresh army stopped the Mongols for three whole months at Sura River. This battle is still full of unsolved mysteries. As late as in 1980´s there were found skulls with holes, armours of unidentified metal (mysterious Altai and Ural blacksmiths?), part of skeletons belonging to Mongol army having Syrian made krusifacs, spearheads, arrow heads etc. Even skeletons of war horses. Only after the battle of Bundaz the Mongols advanced to the gates of Räsan, the next town to fall. But this hard resistance offered by Puresh convinced Batu Kaani (Khan) to offer negociations with Inäzor Purgas and offer alliance to join the Mongol army what the Ersas did. I have not traced any information of Inäzor Purgaz death. Where it happened and when it happened from western sources. Plano Carpini travelled on his voyage to meet Kaanien Kaani (Khan of Khans) at Karakorum through Bundaz battlefield and he gives some information which peoples were under Mongol rule, but one have to be real expert to realise which name he gives means which people. He mentions also Sarasens which could mean the Mokshas. Magyars can easily be identified from the text. Ones before had the Mongols suffered a hard set back. The "devils from forests with magic powers" had stopped them somewhere in Siberia. Presumably the Evenki and Nenetsi (Samojed) warriors in wild forests. This defeat made Mongol War Lords to be afraid of forests. This saved most of the Finno Ugrians (and as well Novgorod) who lived in the conferious forest zone from Mongol attacks. The battle of Ozuga is detailed also on Russian web in a book by Professor Gennadij Belorybkin of Penza in 2001 and describtion should be also available Itugi.ru if it is believed to one Finnish web-side. ( I do not have Cyrillic) The battlefield is 16 hectares and was "discovered" again only in 1960´s.

Yes there are some information collected in old Finnish literature of "The Volga Finns on the Western Roads" consedering the period of Romans, Gothos, Markkomannis and Hunnis in Bohemia and Pannonia, even their battleshout in Pannonia is described from Roman sources to sound "Marha, marha". I give all details if there is any help to improve the article.

You have forgot one important and trustable source. The Estonian Tartu University Finno Ugrian Studies. They continued after the World War Two period up to 1991. Before that the Alexander University in Helsinki up to 1917, Later University of Helsinki 1920 -1944, and Debrecen University in Hungary, all three now "snakes nests" as described recently in Hanti Mansia.


 * Hi! You provided so much information useful for the article. Very much appreciate! As to Shoksha. They live in 15 villages/settlements in Mordovia Tengushevo (erz, Tenjgzhele) district: Baevo, Bereznyak, Vyazhga, Dudnikovo, Kolyayevo, Kurayevo, Malaya Shoksha, Melsetyevo, Mokshanka, Narovatovo, Sakaevo, Standrovo, Shelubey, Shiromasovo, Shoksha   and in 5 villages Mordovia Torbeevo district: Drakino, Kazhlodka, Mayskiy, Fyodorovka, Yakstere Teshte (erz. "Red Star"). Total number 10.000. They are believed to have close relations with Muroma Finnic people in the past. They wear Mokshan clothes and call themselves Erzya. Saransk fortress is pretty far from Atemar and supposed to be founded much earlier than 1641 Numulunj pilgae (Talk)


 * Question is of separate wooden fortress (Goroditse), not the Ersa village which for sure existed on current situ long before Russian Atemar Fortress.

Mordvins on Finnish compiled sources
I just checked out the list of the maps which are worth of publishing. As told earlier Eino Kuussaari has the best known collection of maps in his "Suomen Suvun Tiet". Map II shows whole are inhabited by Finno Ugrians in period to 400 BC. Map 8 shows the general outlook of different cultures in the area c. 1000 - 500 BC. Map 10 shows the expansion of Nenetsis to Siberia. Map 11 shows the situation of Finno Ugrians in Central Russia as described by Herodotos about 500 BC. Map 12 shows general outlook during the time of Scythians. Map 13 shows the the expansion of Finnish (and Volga) tribes from from Oka and Valdai to Gulf of Liivi and area south of Niemen in Poland. Map 14 shows the area of Proto Permia. Map 15 shows the movements of Hunns and its effects to the Finno Ugrian tribes. Map 16 based to map published by P.I.Jakobi (Russian Geographical Society´s Publications XXXII St.Petersburg 1907) of the limit of the area inhabited by the Finno Ugrians at Oka and Voronezh rivers. Map III shows the overall situation from 400 - 0 BC. Map 18 overall situation showing Europe by the time of Caesar Trajanus 98 - 117 AD. Map 24 shows the situation in 450 AD during the Great Peoples Wandering. Map IV shows overall situation of Finno Ugric peoples in c.400 AD. Map 27 shows the expansion of East Slavs c.400 - 900. Map 28 shows Livonia and Curonia with Finnish origin place names. Map 29 shows most important river trading routes in Russia. Map 30 shows how Volga Finns are becoming more and more isolated from Baltic Finns. Map V shows development up to year 600. Map VI Bolgars and Slavs are closing the Finno Ugrian settled lands. Map 36 Finnish related peoples trading areas and the effect with fur trade. Map 37 The wandering of Hungarians from Ural to Pannonia. Map VII The Finno Ugrians in 800 - 900. Etc up to map 65 Mordva Autonomous Republic 1934. Shows also areas inhabited by the Mordvins outside their admistrational area in nearby areas.

The wandering to west is loaned from Strabo, Tacitus, Polish historian J.Rozwadowski, Ptolemaios, Jordanes, Jacobi. The particiation to the Attila´s battle at Charlemange in 451 is described in at least 15 studies. Bohemia, Pannonia episode to the Roman historians collected by Yrjö-Koskinen. The question is of Limigantes as the Romans called them, which were Volga Finns. Episode of Herulis which wandered along Ostrogoths and returned back to Volga area in 512 is by Jordanes and Byzantium written sources.


 * Banat History as seen through Roumanian source


 * 248 - 332 Little Germanic? warrior tribe of Taifalii is certified in Banat and Oltenia. They are obscure, noted as having "foul" habits and usually acted in concert or under other groups. Mentioned by Ammianus Marcellinus. Bear killing by youth to prove they have come to the age of man. Their rituals connected to bear are described in detail. In 377 the Taifalii ara found in north eastern Italy Mutina / Modena, Regium / Reggia, Parma (compare with Perma / Parma).
 * 358 Sarmatae Arcaragantes are forced to arm their slaves - Limigantes? - in the war against Gothic (Gutas) Tervingi allied with Taifalii. the Sarmatae are helped by the Roman army lead by Flavius Claudius Constantinus. After the victory against the Goths (Gutas), the Sarmatae Arcaragantases´s slaves will rebel against their masters and will drive them out from their territory.
 * 358 Limigantes, servi Sarmatarum live in the region split in two by Tissa river in the Banat´s plain. [ie. the western part of the historical Banat]. They are defeated by the Roman army, lead by the Emperor Constantinus II, and forced to accept a harsh peace treaty. They shouted in the battle Marha, marha. Limigantes lived in tatched roofed warmed houses built by oak logs. Their villages were found also in the upper course of Tissa river. (Tissalej? / Tissaläj?)
 * 359 New war between Limigantes and Roman army at Acimincum / Skalamen at the confluence between Tissa and Tonava river. The Limigantes are again defeated in hard battle by the Roman army and they have to withdraw nothward along the bank of Tissa river. They join the incoming Huns.
 * 359 The Huns take possession of Oltania and Munteria, east of Banat. The region becomes the central seat of Hunnish power.
 * 432 - 434 Phennonia (Pannonia) the region west and north west from Banat, fells to Huns. The Huns moved their central seat of power to the Phennonian (Pannonian) plain.
 * 448 Whole Banat is for sure under Huns rule. Priscus of Panium / Thrace [ie. Priscus Panites or Priscus Rhetor] is travelling through Banat to Attila´s court. He is accompanied by Maximianus / Maximin, the ambassador of Theodosius the Younger [ie. Theodosius II Emperor of Byzantium 408 - 450]. In Banat Priscus will find the Barbarian population speaking Romana Rustica, living in villages and will drink local beverage named medos [coming from Latin name medos / ie. mead]. He leaves to history the outlook of Attila as he saw him and a detailed describtion of his wooden walled court somewhere near Tämäs [Temes].
 * 453 Attila died. At the battle of Nedao river in Pannonia from 454, the allied forces of the Germanic? Gepids and Ostro-Gothos defeated the Hunnic forces of the sons of Attila. Huns start retreat toward east and their dominance in Central and Eastern Europe was broken as a result for ever. Shortly after the Battle of Nedao, Banat [for sure the northern part / ie. the Mures (Murtasas?) valley] become under Gepid / Gepidae (nominal?) rule [up to 557].
 * 471 Sarmatae are mentioned for the last time. The Ostro-Gotho King Theoderik defeat the Sarmatae leader Babai [Papai] and took Singidunum / ie. Belgrade.
 * 567 The Avari-Langobardae defeats Gepidae.
 * 568 - 796 The Banat becomes part of Avaria.
 * 593 The first certification of Slavs in Banat by Theophylaktos Simogettes.
 * 791 - 796 The Avari Kaganate dissapeares. The Frankish army follows them east of Tissa river.
 * 803 - 805 Krum [Kagan / Khan] of Kutriguri Bulgarians occupied eastern part Avaria and Banat?.

Also intersting is an article in Carelia Magazine, Petroskoi Nr 4/2002 by Vladimir Afanasjev "Venäläiset ja suomensukuiset: saman kehdon lapsia" (Russians and Finnish kin: Children of same cradle.) For newer history Carelia Nr. 6/2000 Sergei Verigin: Karjalais-Suomalaisen liittotasavallan perustaminen ja "uusien alueiden" hyväksikäyttö. (The foundation of Karelian-Finnish Federal Soviet Republic and its economical use 1940-1941). There is published the Decision dated 28.05.1940 by Communist Party Central Committee to transfer 20.000 and in 1941 also 20.000 Mordvins, Chuvasis, Tataria to newly gained areas (from Finland) to Karelian Isthmus and Ladoga Karelia. I suppose nothing of this plan has been published in Saransk.
 * Later in 1600´s, the Greek Othodox Moksha religion sect named Molokaani escaped to Bukovina (Land of Oaks) and settled south west of Cernauti (Cernowitz). They found one small Greek Orthodox monastery in the area. They were still there at least in early 1900´s.

Maybe the Black Death 1347 - 1350 is worth of mentioning because it killed half of all population in Volga area. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.117.248 (talk) 21:01, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, are there sources proving POV Limigantes were Volga Finns? Aren't they believed to be Vandals or other German race people? Numulunj pilgae (Talk) —Preceding comment was added at 13:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Limigantes
Despite some Germans linking Limigantes and Vandals together, there is not reliable proof that they were same people. The Vandals upper class Germanized while stayed east of Elbe and started to use Deutsch, but main body of the people did not. They have interesting history, real victims of the Great Peoples Wandering, wandering through Western Europe, Iberian peninsula, Northern Africa, destroying as side show Roma and ending their days as slaves in Bosantti / Bysantti / Byzantium at Anatolian hills. Part of the most stubborn population took all their property to the backs of camels and horses and crossed Sahara ending to River Niger bend dissapearing from history. I can give a list of the place names there dating from 1912 which looks quite a lot of Finno Ugrian language. The habits looks quite common for us I think.


 * Very intersting but still don't know how to tie it up. That "Marha-marha" war shout resembles special Moksha sound usually marked in IPA like 'r' with a tiny circle below. Marhta is preposition 'with', marhtan is 'together (with me)', marhtank is '(we all) together', marsa is 'together, all together'. If taking into consideration the Roman writer couldn't hear/distinguish the shout clearly it may be pure Mokshan word with the meaning "let's go together" or something. Pity it doesn't prove our POV they were Limagantes. Numulunj pilgae (talk)16:44, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Inäzors Obram and Tyshtan
More unformation needed. Obram (also called Abram) seems to have been father of Purgaz who lost the battle against three Vladimir vojevods at Skirmish river just north of Obran Osh in 1220.

In some (Jewish) sources Obram is named Inäzor Abraham. The old Ersa story, transferred from generation to next generation, says that when the battle of Skirmish (name still uncertain) near Obran Osh happened in 1220, the women of (after Obran´s death?) Obran Osh decided to do mass suicide with treir children by drowing themselves to Rav. Purgaz decided to chance his capital to Arzamas. According to Russian sources he tried to capture back the newly named Nizhnij Novgorod in 1228. This period is unclear. When allied with Batu Kaani in 1237 one would think that Obran Osh was returned to Inäzor Purgaz family with Mongol assistance. This part of history is black in Russian history of Nizhnij Novgorod. Only what is mentioned is the yoke of Mongol - Tatars in 1238. Then suddenly Nizhnij Novgorod is from 1264 to 1350 part of Vladimir Suzdal vojevodi. Strange, if all the Russian Principalities except of Novgorod and Pskov were under Mongol Yoke. Or shall we understand that the Tatars were actually Ersas who recaptured Obran Osh in 1238 from Vladimir Suzdal vojevod who was killed in the Battle of Sit River on March 9, 1238.

Inäzor Tyshtan is either the son of Inäzor Puresh (who in Russian later added chapter of Bygone Stories of Past is nicely placed to kill unpleasent competiter Inäzor Purgaz) or another Moksha Inäzor who allied with half Tatar Muscovite vojevodi Dmitri of Don River. (Dimitri Donjokelainen). Which fact is true?

Some fresh new thinking may found from http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/uini-name.html published by Anders Pääbo, an Canadian with Estonian roots regading the old Finno Ugrian history from Uirala (Uirali) to Ueneti (Wenedi), Uitula and Uitruski (Etruski).

According to emiritus Professor Kalevi Wiik; Mordvins: The base culture was Gorodets culture, which in turn was borned from textile ceramic culture influence. This in turn was based to pit culture and line Volosovo - Pozdnjakovo. In Volosovo culture included Belanovo and Fatjanovo cultures in addition to element of Upper Volga culture (5000 - 3000 BC), thus the Mordvin includes also Baltic element. From 700 AD the Mordvins were partly influenced by Volga Bolgares. Dividing for two continued in 1200´s. At last in 1552 the both Mokshas and Ersas were under common (Muscovite) adminstration when the Muscovites conquered the whole area. In 1550 - 1795 and 1804 - 1810 occured the massive movement to the east. In 1600´s Mordvins had become a minority in their own lands. Moksha language has more Turkic influence from ancient Bolgarian language than Ersa (Erza) language. Agreed or not?

I suppose all know the Goroditse Culture with ancient Hillforts located to important confluences of rivers. These people were moving, according to Dr. James S. Gregory, toward west to Vistula Basin and Pannonia. In addition to Goroditsi, two other Finno Ugrian tribes are also mentioned, Anematski and Ojakovi on their western course.


 * There is a POV there were no Mongols in Golden Horde, only another Russian empire heir to the throne of turkic origin. No chance Erzyas recaptured Obran one more time. But all seems dubious. There is no mentioning of Puresh son's name and it is not quite clear it was him or his son destroying Purgaz principality in 1229 and who of them swore allegiance to Jengiz and later been slain in battle in Germany. As to 700AD first it was Khazars and Alans who influenced Moksha (Burtas alliance) and it was Erzya who came under Bolgarian influence (both Khazars and Bolgars were turkic so it is not easy to separate even loanwords though the influence was not the same). Moksha and Erzya were different peoples in 1200AD. Probably never been an ethnic unity. I mean Turkic peoples for example speaking very close languages but no one is trying to find the date when Chuvashes separated from Tatars or vice versa. There is POV Moksha were closer to Muroma and Meshchera than to Erzya. There is even a POV Mokshas shifted to Finno-Ugric language (Muromian or Meshcheran) but they were not ethnic Finnic (of course it is not true). Even archeological data proves they had different traditions. May be they were in alliance long ago. 1552 is the year they both swore oath to Muscovites but still remains Kasimov khanate (till 1681). What is the work of James S. Gregory reg Gorodets culture moving? --Khazar II (talk) 06:02, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

According to James S. Gregory´s work (map in page 101) the more western hillfort area was mainly in old vähävenäläinen Malorossia (Ukraina) so called Romny Culture area, but a different type of hillforts were east of Oka as far east to Voronezh River and beyond, which was known to be inhabited by Finno Ugrians (see map published by Jakobi and its Finnish version published by Eero Kuussaari) connecting the hillforts direct to Finno Ugrian Metserä (Metserän mäkilinna) at the place of later Kasimov in Kasimovin Kaanikunta, and Muromis. These were linked with Meri (Russian Merja) people living north of them which were in turn linked with Vepsä (Russians used to call them Ves) people. The Kyrillic Vsevolod name drops out the original Vesevolod form. The hillforts appear even in Estonia and Finland on the same bases and built for the same purpose than Oka and Valgia (White) River hillforts. Because of the warning fires system the Scandinavian Vikings made only few robbing treks to Finland. The Finno Ugrians made so hard recistance than only one of such journeys have been recorded in Viking era sagas.

Some Finnish historians who had and have visited in Hakassia say they are Hukassis which in turn can be derived with hukka ie. susi (wolf). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.115.5 (talk) 03:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

The burial traditions
The kalma way of burial. The corps were placed onto platforms at sacred croves (kalmisto). The birds and other animals done the job to finish the corps, which in this way become part of the nature again. Compare to the Tibetan sky burial. The burning burials where the corp is buried and ash distributed to the nature. Both are old Finno Ugrian burial methods. Land burials become later with Christianity.


 * All correct. That is why the early period lacks archeological data. Sacred grove in Moksha called 'repeshtä'. In old times they used bark/bast coffins for it hanging them on trees (sleeping beauty founded in crystal coffin hanging on a tree came to fairy-tales from Finnic burial tradition). Later Mokshas started using for dead bodies small wooden tombs made of four trees growing close. They cut them and made small blockhouse placed on four legs. --Khazar II (talk) 07:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Erzya and Moksha identity
Regarding the various discussions of Erzya and Moksha identity above, people working on this article may be interested in citing the essay "Erza We Are!" by the Erzya (Erza) poet Mariz Kemal posted on the SURI website (Soome-Ugri Rahvaste Infokeskus / Information Center of Finno-Ugric Peoples). Peer Gynt (talk) 23:07, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Destroying the Barchin and Orna by Mongols in 1237
I found this describtion from Finnish transliteration of Plano Carpini´s classic work transliterated from old English. This suits well with the known facts including Moksha´s described as Saracens in 1245.

Barchin and Orna
Plano Carpini describing the advance of Batu Kaani´s Army as told by the Mongols themselves who participated Batu´s attack. "But a certain citie called Barchin resisted them for a long time. For the citizens had cast vp many ditches and trenches about their citie, in regard whereof the Tartars (Mongols) cuold not take it till they had filled the said trenches (sudenkuopat in Finnish, wolf´s pits in English transliteration). But the citizens of Sarguit hearing this, came foorth to meete them (Mongols), yelding themselves vnto them of their owne accord. Whereupon their citie was not destroyed, but they slue manie of them and others they carried awaye captiue, and taking spoyles they filled the citie with other inhabitants, and so marched (rided) foorth against the citie of Orna. This towne was uery popolous and exceeding rich. For they were manue Christians, Russians (should be multi ethnic Orosh), and Alanians (Hungarians?), with outhers, and Saracens (Mokshas) too. The gouernement of this citie was in the Saracens (Moksha´s) hande. It standeth vpon a mighty river (Sura), and is a kinde of porte towne, hauing a great marte exrcised therein. And when the Tartars (Burjat Mongols) could not otherwise ouercome it, they turned the said riuer (Sura) running through the said citie, out of the channell and so drowned the citie with the inhabitants and their goods. Which beeing done they (Mongols) set forward against Oruss (Russia ie. Slavic principalities), and made foule hauocke there, destroying cities and castles and murthering the people. They (Mongols) laid siege a long while vnto Kiow the chiefe citie of Oruss (Russia), and at lenght took it (Deciember in Lord´s year 1240) and slue the citizens. Whereupon, trauelling (Plano Carpini himself in 1245) through that countrey, wee found an innumerable multitude of death mens skules and bones lying vpon the earth. For Kiow was verie large and a populous citie, but it is nowe (1245) in a maner brought to nothing for there doe scarce remaine 200 housies, the inhabitants whereof are kept in exreme bondage. Moreouer, oute of Oruss (Russia) and Comania (Kumania), they (Mongols) proceeded forward against the Polonians and Hungarians and there manie of them (Mongolians) were slaine (in the Battles of Leginca and Mohi AD 1241) as is foresaid and had the Hungarians (Battle of Mohi 1241) manfully withstood them, the Tartars (Mongolians) had beene confounded and druiven back. Returning from thence, they (Mongolians) inuaded the countrey of Morduans (Ersas) being pagans, and conquerred them in a battle (Ersa uprising in 1242 or Ersa tribes in Pannonia). Then they marched against the people called Byleri (Bolghars), or Bulgaria magna, and vtterly wasted the countrey (1242). from hence they (Mongols) proceeded against the people called Bastarci or Hungarian magna, and conquered them also. And so going further North, they come vnto the Parasitae (Mari) who hauing little stomacks and small mouthes, ate not anie thing at all, but seething fless they stand or sitte ouer the potte, and receiuing the steame or smoke (traditional Finno Ugrian sauna) thereof, are therewith onely nourished, and if they eate anie thing it is verie little. (No mention of any Mongol victory over Parasitae). From hence they (Mongols) came to Samogitae, who liue onely vpon hunting, and vse to dwell in tabernacles onely, and weare garmets made of beasted skines. (sotisopa). (Again, no mention of any Mongol voctory over Samogitae.) From thence they (Mongols) proceeded vnto a countrey lying vpon the Ocean sea (Baltic Sea or White Sea during winter covered with ice), where they found certaine monsters, who in all things iesembled a shape of man, sauing that their feete were like the feete (short skies) of an oxe, and they had deede mens heads but dogges faces. (traditional Finno Ugrian head cover made of wolf of fox head skins). They spake,as it were, two words like man, but the third they barged like dogges. From hence they (Mongols) retired into Cumania, and there some of them remaine vnto this day (1245 - 1246).

I think there is nothing to comment over this describtion written by a neutral visitor of Pope´s delegation toward the Karakorum too meet the Kaanien Kaani (Khan of Khans). For the "offical" Russian history writing this story had remained totally unknown.


 * Yes! Agree. I have read it. Moreover we may find it in ANNALES MONASTERII DE WAVERLEIA. Roger Bacon and Matthew of Paris mentioned "mordans" being Mongol army avant-gard. Kiitos! --Khazar II (talk) 22:44, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Now when you mentioned the Mordvin scouts in Poland it came to my memory to have read of them in one book (I cannot remember the name) written by one American of Polish roots decribing his home village in Zakopane area where the legend of these Mordvins still lives strongly, described to be the first members of Mongol army which were seen. They gave warning of the nearing Mongol main force to the villagers who had time to escape to the forests and avoid the passing Mongol army which did not enter into forests. This saved the villagers.

Pleasure to be of help. I read again the whole book. Some more interesting details were found. I add them in above text when have time. Some general thoughts came to my head. What was the importance of execution of the best 25.000 Mordvin warriors after the conquering of Kiow? Could it have been a most important thing to have 25.000 very hard soldiers more in the conquering Mongol army in the battles in Poland and Hungary. Is it so that these missing 25.000 saved the rest of the Western Europe. It is after all ten per cent of the total Mongol manpower.

Some warriors seems to have managed to save their heads and escaped back to Mordvaland. They told the fate of the others and this rised the general hate so much that the result was open revolt against the Mongols. Why the Mongols had to sent 40.000 soldiers and Subutai himself to smash the revolt and pacify the Mordvins?

Secondly, does someone a slightest idea why the Mongol army did not invade against the Lithuaninas and why they left Belarussian towns untouched. Was there a skirmish between advancing Mongols and Lithuanians which is not mentioned in history, where the Lithuanians offered such a resintance that it remained Subutai and others of the hard battle in Sura River.

Bear in Mordvin Mythologia
What importance the bear has in old Mordvin mythologia? If the answer is yes, please do describe in what meaning. It depends of this if I can open the locked door to Mordvin tribes in Phennonia (Pannonia). I cannot think bear in steppe zone to be generally celebrated. They do not like to be in open nature, the cover of forest must always to be near to avoid the people.}} —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.168.67 (talk • contribs) 20:49, 29 July 2008  (UTC)


 * Bear (moksha: ofta) is very important in most old layers of mythology and Moksha pagan tradition. It was believed you may not pronounce bear's name aloud. During wedding ceremony there is always an old woman in bear's skin (or at least in hairy fur coat) who gives special blessing to the married couple. In old Mokshan fairy-tales bears are always kind and wise. I don't know for sure if traditional Mokshan dish 'oftunj madä' (bear's paw) ever been made of real bear but now it is made of different kinds of meat (lamb, beef, pork, etc) and dried crusts used for claws. --Khazar II (talk) 07:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you Khazar II. Finns never kill the bear, they only fell it, even to today (2008). This is called "karhun kaato". After the bear is felled there are "karhun peijaiset" where small pieces of bear meat is eaten. Now I can link with bear the ancient tribes in Phennonia (Pannonia) direct to Mordvin tribes, becuse I suppose the Wesstern Slavs did not respect bear such a way what all Finno Ugrian peoples did. Compare with the old Russian legends of sacred bears of Meri and Vepsä peoples connected with their pre Christian religions). Here is another prove, as you said, not to mention bear directly, but with other names which mean the bear. Otso (ofta), mesikämmen (honeypalm), metsän kuningas (king of the forest) and other. In Estonia even the main settlement of Ugandi was named (name in German) Oedenpah ie. Otsonpää (Head of the Bear or in form Bearhead). In modern Estonian language Otepää becouse of its shape like a bear in nature. There was an ancient hillfort there until 1200´s. There are many places named after the bear in Finland and Karelia, and when you look Russian detailed maps, you found a curiosity, they all are mainly inside the area of so called Finno Ugrian Russia. Also bear (karhu / otso / kontio) is common in Finnish and Karelian origin surenames. Also in those Karelian origin names which were, when the owner of the name was baptized, Russificated to Russian Medvjed.... Those Tihveri (Tver) Karelians (quarter of million) are described as Karhujoen kansa (People of Bear River). They have even today (2008) their own name I have heard of this old habit with the Maatar (Maaemo) plessing to the young couple when they started their common path, included also in Mishär Tatar´s wedding ceremony.


 * Then, born the Earth from the egg of Narsku (Sotka) in Latin Aythia, (Mordvins have eagle or some other mythologial bird?). The upper (sharper) part of the egg presents the Upper World (world of life) and the lower (lower) part of the egg presents the Under World )world of the death) which is invisble, but among the ihminen (living human) and nature with its maahinen population with fairies, demons, etc. The Upper World is the World of the Lightness, the Under World is the World of Darkness. Nearly every night the Upper World and Lower World spirits ie. good and bad are fighting in the northern sky so strongly that their clashes are shown in Revontulet (Fires of Revo / Rouan), in Latinized form Aurora Borealis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.115.5 (talk • contribs) 03:09, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes there was the great egg. And there were the Great Bird sitting on a the Great Tree. In later sources the Bird was Swan or Duck. The tree was Birch with its roots in underworld and her upper branches in heaven. The Great Bird had three fledgelings: Nightingale, Cuckoo and Lark. Humans were born out of trees. All the dead go to Usija (the island in the big sea). And how do you connect it to Pannonia? Toponyms? --Khazar II (talk) 21:30, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * From narsku´s six golden eggs and one iron egg the world was created with old mythic Kalevala text; Munasen alainen puoli Alaiseksi maaemäksi, Munasen yläinen puoli Yläiseksi taivahaksi; Yläpuoli ruskeaisista Päivöiseksi paistamahan, Yläpuoli valkeaisista, Se kuuksi kumottamahan; Mi munasta kirjavaista, Ne tähiksi taivahalle, Mi munassa mustukaista, Nepä ilman pilvilöiksi. This is in short ancient describtion of the big cosmic explosion which created the world. For transliteration one needs the best available text of Kalevala. If Erich von Däniken borrowed this ancient old text in his fantasy books of ufos, this has been used as striking weapon by indo-european scholars against the all the Finno Ugric "nonsense" which appear in all Finno Ugrian myths from Middle of Asia to the coast of Atlantic Ocean. It was impossible to agree. Kalevi Wiik´s theories were rejected, but then when DNA researches of chromosome haplodites N3 and U5 started to appear in science they proved all to be true which have been existed from ancient times in Finno Ugrian mythology. This is a good point to start the Mordvin, or what ever to call it, Lifetree in with its separate title from times 12.000 BC when the stone age hunters carrying haplodite N3 appeared in the heart of Asia in Altai area.


 * Before more specified additions try these: Tonava, Tämäs, Tissa. I believe some our cousins live there still today (2008). Tonava is five mouth Istros in Herodototos text. The stream of Hades (Tonava) which separated living and death people. The bird of Tonava was joutsen / lebed / swan etc ie. Kuoleman Joutsen ( Swan of Tuoni / Death. Hades was behind the Tonava somewhere where souls wandered. Roman Manala. Gothic / Germanic Walhalla. Lieto Lemminkäinen was cut to peaces by Tuonen (Tonavan) poika, the son of death. His mother travelled to Tuonelan tuville with holy bee ointment co collect the peaces of his son back together and returned him to the books of living humans. Compare with myth of Isis and Osiris. This tradition was honoured in all Finno Ugrian ancient burial ceremonies as in Moksha funerals where the corpse was divided to four to celebrate all four (east, south, west, and north) parts of taivaankansi (sky lids). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.115.116.237 (talk • contribs) 03:46, 9 August 2008 (UTC)



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Common sayings
Does the Ersa yakstere kel and Moksha yakster kiäl mean in deepist meaning same than Finnish ruskeakielinen and Karelian rusgie kielne. Color is different but the meaning seems to be the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.168.67 (talk) 20:59, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

jaksterä or jaksterj (I use Finnish spelling) in Moksha is 'red'. Jaksterj kälj is 'red tongue/language' You can say tobda/shobda jaksterj - 'brown (literally dark red)' --Khazar II (talk) 07:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. This explanes all. The most unfortunate, as said by all Hungarians, Estonian, and Finnish linguistic scholars, to write the Ersa and Moksha languages, is the adoption of Kyrillic alphabets insted of Latin alphabets in both languages because you cannot simply write the language as it is pronounced.
 * Do you mean using latin alphabet for Moksha is convenient or not? Did not get you. Numulunj pilgae (talk)16:47, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The Latin letters sounds much better in all Finno Ugrian languages than the Kyrillic letters.

Common own name for all Mordvins
I am pretty sure it is still known, if not in Mordvin collectional memory, then it must live in either Tatar or Türkish languages or mentioned in Byzantium old written sources. If there were Ut-murt, Komi-murt, Mari-murt, Meri-murt, Maa-murt and Su-murt there must be a common word as Finnish ihminen for living human be. I have traced one name Murdasa (Murt-as) of Bulgal origin which might be originally As-murt or Mas-murt and turned to Jassi people in later days. But if the Mastor a common in both dialects for Earth then Mastor-murt (Land Living Human Be), or people connected to Earth. In later separated Baltic Finn languages you can see a mythologian Maa-emä (Estonian) and Maa-emo (Finnish) or if given direct feminine name then Maatar for feminine Earth. Emo / Emä is mother. Thus Mother of Earth. Usually hän is neutral he / she but when used to form separate the female version of adoult women from men then they become -tar / -tär in the end of the verb. Thus: Basicly quite simple language developed from stone age language to now one of the richest language groups having equal number of words with Greek language, ie more than 10.000 in use. Usually all indo-european languages have much less words. (About 60 - 70 per cent of the Finno Ugrian languages). Many words cannot be transliterated directly in one word to indo-european languages. Or what of dialectic "mukkelismakkelis" = fell upside down in rolling position. When one add all the different dialects and synonyme loan words from other languages....impossible to understand for outsiders. Thus named dog language when spoken in quick tempo. I think Basque language is similar. Ones claimed to be nearly same than one minority language used in Caucasus. At least this Caucasian knjäz understod all when visited in Baskimaa and was able to communicete with local inhabitants using his own language during the time of Imperial Russia. Not much know fact.
 * rakastaja / rakastajatar (lover / mistress)
 * omistaja / omistajatar (owner)
 * metsästäjä /metsästäjätär (hunter)
 * perijä / perijätär (heritager)
 * kaupunkilainen / kaupungitar (inhabitant living in town)
 * haltija / haltiatar (gnome / fairy)
 * herttua / herttuatar (western duke / duchess)
 * ruhtinas / ruhtinatar (eastern duke / duchess)

Child has tongue in his / her mouth. He / she learns to speak his / her mother´s language in his father´s land which is his / her Fatherland. = Lapsella on kieli suussa. Hän oppii puhumaan äidinkieltä isänsä maassa joka on hänen isänmaansa. Simple or what?


 * I saw word Mardas in Hekki Paasonen's Mordvin index. Marked as 'secret word'. At the moment I don't have Paasonen's works handy and cannot say for sure if there were extra remarks on the source (informant, Moksha or Erzya village). But I never heard it and never heard of it before. Man is alä, human is 'lomanj'. (In the same time in old language loma meant 'strange' and lomanj 'stranger's'.) For feminine word ending ava 'woman, female' is used.

Like policewoman, sportswoman in English. Lapsella on kieli suussa. Hän oppii puhumaan äidinkieltä isänsä maassa joka on hänen isänmaansa.= Shabanj uli kälj kurgsa. Son tonady korhtama tädänj käljsa kona sonj alänts mastarsanza. Possible to guess what is what but not at once. Numulunj pilgae (talk)17:43, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * rakastaja / rakastajatar (keljgij/ keljgij ava)
 * omistaja / omistajatar (kirdij/kirdjava)
 * metsästäjä /metsästäjätär (kuntsij/kuntsiava)
 * otsazur/otsazurava (kuningas/kuningatar)
 * Yes, it takes a while when realising instead of mouth is kurkku (throuth) etc. As you said not at all impossible to understand when spending couple of months in Mordvaland.


 * The otsazur / otsazurava version is interesting. It gives direct link through Old Prussian kuningaz to Finnish kuningas / kuningatar and links also otsadiadeemi (otsatiara) (forehead tiara) or otsaripa /otsariipus, the symbol of power of kuningaz direct to Byzantium´s Emperor with his highest Imperial mark to be linked with ancient Egypt and Sumeri. All this have been missing from general knowledge outside of few selected people. Thank you for this information.


 * Oh, my. Mordvins is not an ethnic unity it is just a total misunderstanding which came out of old Russian and old European sources when writers and scientists just didn't care about distinguishing Moksha and Erzya. Why Chechens do not have to prove they are not Ingushes or why Khanty do not have to prove Yugra is not an ethnic unity which includes them and Mansi. For example when in XI AD Erzyas kept alliance with Bulgars, Mokshas had alliance with Vladimir prince Yuriy but in chronicles we find enigmatic 'Mordvins' now at war with Russians, now with Bolgars. --Khazar II (talk) 21:10, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

This would have been the natural development but the Slavonic "Russification"....prevented this.
 * What was missing, and still is, in Mordvaland is a strong minded person who can create a new written language text for all the Mordvin "heimos" to unite them to speak one common language instead of their own languages when the have communicate with each others. This was done in Finland by Mikael Agricola, and in Estonia by Eduard Ahrens and Gottfried Forselius. Nothing prevent the "heimos" to speak their own languages as before in local use, but in common comminications the language which all understand and use as "offical" language of their own.


 * Is the question with alliance with Volodmer Monomakkus against the Polovoi or Bulghars?

Mordvin War Dress
There are several describtions showing the ancient Mordvins having, when going to their war paths, being dressed to black clothes and later to black painted armour separating them clearly from Mongols. They used night as a cover and were invisible for their enemies. Surely not at all the Mongol habit to conduct the battles. These black warriors being the most feared by the enemies in the Mongol army. Is it possible that the Ersas refused to continue after the Kiow, with the described result, but the Mokshas continued westward with the Mongol army. If this was the case the Russian version of the conquering the Mordovia by Mongols in 1238 - 1239 must be only the part which was inhabited by Mokshas, and Burttas, ie. western part of so called Great Mordvania which existed in c.600 - 1227. With this backround the theory to link Mokshas (dark heared) with Muromis and Metseräs sound logical and Ersas (blond and red heared) more to Udmurts and Komi Permjakkis.Please remember the Tula Finns are even mentioned by Lev Tolstoi living as his neighbours in Krasnaja Poljana located in the forest zone south of Tula. Also the Orjel (Russian version) could have had Finno Ugrian roots to Finnish Kotka (Eagle). Tshuvassi language has a direct transliteration of non Russian Tula being as "located far away" which could have been a tshuvassi version of Finnish Kaukola ie place located far away looking both from the north and east with Finno Ugrian population before the Russians wandered from south western direction in the area.
 * Don't know anything of Kiev siege. I thought Batu punished those 20.000 or 25.000 Mokshas after their revolt in Poland when they refused fighting with Germans. It is interesting, but never read before they wore especially black clothes. They used armours called vaksarsham 'shield-clothes' consisting of separate elbow armours, kneels armours, etc. They could be black. I tbeleive there were few or no Erzya at all in Mongol army heading to west. Burtass were Mokshas. Tula means 'wedge' in Mokshan. Eagle is kutskan in Moksha. Numulunj pilgae (talk)17:08, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I have seen one picture of that sotisopa in Europa Barbarorum pages with wrong warriors.

Borshevo Hillfort and trading place Kuzmiravkasse
The two main trading places in 650 - 950 seems to have been Borshevo on the south and Kuzmiravkasse in the north. Borshava (presumably Moksha Vorzavälje) was an important trading centre, developed from hillfort to most important trading place located on Voronezh river, just south of now a days Voronezh. It developed in 700 - 900 from typical hillfort village to trading township which was inhabited by several thousand people. Formed the most southern Mordvin trading place. Below it the control of this river trading route changed hands to non Finno Ugrian peoples.

In the history these Finno Ugrian fortfills are shown by the Russians as Borshevo Hillfort Culture.

Kuzmiravkasse is the most northern trading place which had Mordvin inhabitants along the Valgia / Rava / Rav. Its Karelian name was Tihveri, now a days Tver. Could someone provide exact transliteration of Kuzminravkasse in English? At least it includes rav which means Russian Volga. The rest of the name is unknown for me.

Professor Heikki Paasonen and dry Mordvin humor
This is taken from Professor Johanna Laakso´s homepages.

When Heikki Paasonen was collecting material for his Doctoral theses in Mordvaland in 1889 - 1890 he rented a room from ordinary Mordvin peasant house. As a man who followed his principle "Healthy soul in healthy body" he made every morning his gymnastics program which varied in lenght from quarter of hour to half an hour time. This rent master, an ordinary Mordvin peasant watched carefully these exercises and one morning said to Paasonen; " Listen you, have I during my life seen manykinds of religionary habits, but ever as profuse as yours." Rolled his head and left Paasonen to stand still of suprise of this good example of humorous comment.

Why I took it here. This simple comment shows that this original Mordvin peasant owned his own house. (Master of the house.) He had travelled before to see many, that means at least four, different religions (Mordvin pre Christian religion, Orthodox religion, Islam religion and peharps Fire worship of Zoroastrians). From this it can be concluded he had visited at least at Samara, Astrahan, but most probably in Baku.

Tetjushi Mordvins
In which of these villages Tetjushi Mordvins live?


 * Sykejevo, Baltatsevo, Malaja Kljari, Kljantsejevo, Burnashevo, Bol.Bolgojary, Mal.Bolgojary, Marino, Tanajevo, Ishejevo, Novoposeljennoje Ishejevo, Nikiforovka, Karabajevo, Irdjas-Tenikejevo, Staraja Jurmaly, Bairashevo, Tsulla, Alaberdino, Jambuhtino (Church village), Malaja Atrjasi, Bolshoi Atrjasi, Bajmat, Laptejevka, Dolgaja Poljana, Monastirskoje, Ilinskoje, Jambuhtino (Church village), Bolshoi Turma, Malaja Turma, Bolshoi Shemjakino, Malaja Shemjakino, Malaja Frolino, Popeda, Malaja Bishjarino, Bolshoi Bishjarino, Ljashevo, Krasnaja Poljana (Church village), Ljubumovka, Tetjushi (Admistravive centre), Narmonka, Zelenovka, Tsintsurino, Kushkuj, Klashevo, Bolshoi Karlanga, Stepanovka, Kugalna, Tonsherma, Shigali, Medvedjevka, Kozlovka, Fedorovka, Krasnoje Netsasovo, Udelnoje Netsasovo (Church village), Kolunets (Church village), sovhos Sadovoi, Kashka, Ivanovka, Malaja Nentsasovo, Alekina Poljana, Krasnij Dvoriki, Janevka, Krasnoje Polje, Ak-Kul, Knjat (Church village), Novij Tuntsali, Russkije Kishagi, Ivanovka, Maiskij, Novoje Sumarkovo, Krasnaja Zvezda.


 * Along Kilna river tovard downstream; Prolej Kasha, Bogdashkino (argeological excavations of old Volga Bolgharia Muslim village nearby). Iokovo, Berlek, Zhukovo, Krasnij Trakhany, Maksimovka, Salmanovka, Staraja Kulmetjevka, Potselok Novoljashjevo, Tajba-Taushevo, Koshki-Novotimbajevo, Tatarskij Tsherepanovo, Tshuvashij Tsherepanovo, Thsuvashij Tsikildym, Burtsjevo, Bozhzhi, Bakrtsi, Utjamishevo, Nizhnij Tarkhany, Kirteli, Kildjashevo, Krasnij Ozero, Pitshemar, Urjum, Kalyshevo, Krasnij Vostok, Vasiljevka, Tjukashi, Bolshoi Tarkhany, Verhnij Tarkhany, Bessonovo, Tatarskaja Bedenga, Russkaja Bedenga, Sjundjakovo.

It seems likely that those villages with names Russkij, Tshuvashij, and Tatarskij means also the origin of ethnic population.

More Famous Mordvians

 * S.Aninkin 1868 - 1919 politican, member of Duma, leader of the Workers Party, folklorist.
 * Baush, the last independent Mordvin Inäzor. Won the Crimean Tatars in battle in 1612.
 * Count Mordonov 1749 - 1845, economist, richest Mordvin of his time, great land owner.
 * V.Tshapajev 1887 - 1919 hero of the Red Army in the Civil War.
 * I.Kutjakov, commander of Mordvin Red Brigade, Division commander, Victim of Stalin´s purge.

Can anyone say who was Ersa and Moksha.

These Terjuhans should be added in the list.


 * Nikolai Karamzin, famous historian.
 * Juri Gagarin, the first man in space. (Father´s kin originating from little Gagarskaja village.)
 * Vladimir Iljitsh Uljanin (Moksha or Ersa?)

more
 * Stepan Anikin's father was Erzya and mother Moksha. He hardly knew his father as he was recruited to military when Stepan was a child.
 * Bayush Razgildeyev was ethnic Meshchera
 * Count Nikolay Mordvinov family's ancestor was Moksha noble Zhdan who was granted Russian nobility by Ivan The Terrible
 * Vasily Chapaev was born in Chuvashia and all his ancestors seem to have Russian names. Chuvashes think he was Chuvash and Erzyas do he was Erzya.
 * Ivan Kutyakov was born in Samara gubernia and he seems to be ethnic Erzya
 * Nikolay Karamzin's ancestor was Tatar prince Kara Murza
 * Aleksey Gagarin's ancestors seem to be Russian, not clear
 * Vladimir Ulyanov's great grandfather was ethnic Erzya
 * Vasily Shukshin 1929-1974 notable Soviet/Russian actor, writer, screenwriter and movie director, ethnic Moksha
 * Metropolitan Antony (Alexander Vasilievich Vadkovsky) 1846-1912, bishop of Vyborg and Finland, representative of Russian church in UK, Cambridge and Oxford PhD, Metropolitan of St. Petersburg and Ladoga 1898-1912, ethnic Moksha.


 * Yes, I forgot that, mentioned in Finnish literature. Do you know why it took so long to create a modern Finnish language?, The upper class of Finns had adopted at least since Merovingi age Latina as their second domestic language. At the time of 1400´s a Finn was appointed to the Rector (Headmaster) of Sorbonne University in Paris, a position never reached by any of Slavic origin. When Mikael Agricola (Mikhelius Akrikulatus) created his compromise of three basic Finnish dialects, Latina was commonly used in its funny Finno-Latina form retaining the order of words used in Finnish dialects. Mikaeli the Peasanteri took part in the negotiations in Moskova to end the stupid Livonian war between Muscovites and Swedes. He was allowed to have private meeting with Iivana who was interested to know more of Mikael Agricola´s efforts with new Finnish. Some modern (and also old) Finnish sources believe that from Ivan´s point of view his ideas were too dangerous to spread among his Russian Finns, so he ordered Mikael Agricola to be poisoned with long effective poison made by his myrkkymestari (poison meister) so that nobody can blame his of Mikael´s poisoning. Mikael died in Finland´s soil at Viipuri to an unknown sickness, never reaching Turku. He was buried in Viipuri, but the Russians destroyed his grave during the Great Northern War in 1700 - 1721. Its location was never found again in later days. All Baltic nations use still its older name Viipuri, Vipori, Viburg, Wiburg, never Russian version Vyborg (older version Vyiburg). It was in summer 1939 the second largest town in Finland with nearly 100.000 inhabitants, tramway lines and most international town in Finland. It had Finnish, Swedish, Russian, Estonian, German, Tatar, and Jewish population. Its Outer Harbour Uuras (renamed after 1944 by the Russians Vysotsk) was the largest wood exporting harbour in Finland. It was really a cosmopolitan trading center. After 1917 nearly 30.000 Finnish Peterers resettled there when ousted from Petrograd, Pietari. Its Linna (Kreposti) with Finland´s flag on its tower was a symbol of Independent Finland.
 * Why I placed Viipuri on these pages. It is part of common Finno Ugrian history and also part of Russian history. One cannot separate them to different "lokero" (pigeon holes). The town, the kerejeposti, old Karelian käräjäpaikka (Russian name Veche) and trading center since c. 400 AD. The Kreposti (Slot) was founded there by Swedes in 1293 by Torkkeli Knuutinpoika (Torgel Knudson). Later being part of Imperial Russia 1721 - 1917 but after 1812 to 1917 and then 1917 - 1940, and from August 30, 1941 - 1944 adminstrated from Helsinki as part of the Constitutional Grand Duchy of Finland in Russian Empire and Republic of Finland. Russians captured it on June 20, 1944 and since being part of Soviet Union and since 1992 Russian Federation, the heritager of Soviet Union. Viipuri was in 1939 of same importance to Finland than Nizhnij Novgorod in Imperial Russia in 1913 with its - according to offical Imperial Statistics - population of 97.000 inhabitants (rounded to nearest 1.000). It is also the second town in the world - after Varsova (Warszawa) in Poland - to receive the terror air bombings against the civilian population on November 30, 1939 and areal bombings starting on December 20, 1939, in honour of the birth day of Josif Vissianarovitsh Dzhugasvili - Stalin offered to him on his 60th birth day. The Greek Orthodox Church was badly damaged during the areal bombing on February 20, 1940 during there was held military funeral of Greek Othodox Finnish soldier by ethnic Russian priest, and all Lutherian churches were burned leaving nearly only their stone walls standing. These bombings in addition to long range gun fire, lead to 58 per cent destruction of the town up to March 13, when the street fights between Finnish Army and Red Army were going on until the cease fire at noon. Russians did not manage to conquer Viipuri that day despite their desperate efforts from  March 10 to the Cease Fire. The town area was still hold (exept three southern suburbs) by Finnish Army, Finland´s War Flag still on The Tower of  Viipurin Linna until the arms silenced. It was taken down from towern´s flag mast by one Finnish soldier and the occassion was honoured by Finnish Army Battalion of Honour with Full Military Honours at 15.30 and presented to Commanding General Öhqvist. It is preserved at Helsinki War Museum on this date 2008. Only after this the Finnish troops left Viipuri according the Moskova Peace Treaty to take new positions on the north side of Linnansilta (Castle Bridge) to Tienhaara. The retreat continued according to plan behind new border 37 km north of Viipuri. That was the end of Finnish Viipuri as it had been in the times in peace and wars. Every piece has been documented in Finland´s history. Every destroyed and burned house is known.

--Khazar II (talk) 19:46, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * How do you place in the list Ulko-Ersa / Ulko-Moksha, those scattered here and there? How they are called (Outer-Ersa / Outer Moksha?).


 * Nikolai Karamzin (1766 - 1826) Something here is wrong. His son fell in love with Aurora Karamzin a Finn-Swede beauty, ok. Stjernvall (1808 - 1902), a widower of Hof Jagd Meister Pavel Demidov (1798 - 1840) of Demidoff family from Tula. (Note the place). Helped Ersa / Moksha / Mari refuges in Zyryan to resettle there in north-eastern Kazahstan area to work on her, Morning Gift from Pavel, mines. According to Finnish sources his second husband Colonel A. Karamzin, the son of Nikolai Karamzin, was a Terjuhan, or at least his grand father was serving as Terjuhan officer in Misääri Tatar troops east of Rava. He died in the battle of Sevastopol in Taurida (Krimi) in 1855, and Aurora become a rich widower,who never married herself again. Her summer house in the middle of Helsinki is preserved as Helsinki City Museum. Rumoured to have been also "close" friend of the Tsar Nikolai I.
 * Aleksei (Juri) Gagarin during his visit in Finland after his space visit give to the Finnish press an interview in an express train where he (little bit drunken with Finns) told that his father´s kin is from small village in Nizhnij Novgorod Oblast and was a Terjuhan. This growed even more his popularity making him nearly a close relative to Finnish press. In his next interview he told the press "before all I am a proud citizen of Soviet Union, my kin has nothing to do with this matter". Never again he told of his roots.

Purgazi Inäzördom
What are the Ersan (Erzan) and Mokshan names for Great Principality?

The Purgazin Principality was also known to be a safe haven for many Russian peasants who escaped the hard taxes of Kievan Grand Principality. In addition many Jews which had settled in Russia, and who were deported "from all the Russian land" by Vladimir Monomach, did not travel west or south, but to the east to seek protection of Mordvin Inäzors. In addition to Ersas those Maris and Tshuvassis which lived along Rav on the south side from Sura River to Obran Osh were inhabitans in Purgaz Great Principality. It seems to have been a multi ethnic society. Purgaz was also allied with Kumanis which the Russians called "Polovoj". (In Finnish named according to old Russian language "Half egged howlingers.")


 * Inäzor is Erzyan for 'king' (prince in Erzya is 'chirjaz'). So if speaking of Purgaz's land in Erzya it may be Inäzorkschi or Inäzoronj moda/Purgazonj moda 'Kingdom/Purgaz's land' in Russian it is called Rus Purgasova and Purgasova volost. You are right about peasants (and sometimes thiefs or criminals) who escaped taxes, punishment and found asylem in his lands. Do not know of Jews. Kumaanit (Polovtsi in Russian) were Moksha's ally. In 1230 AD Moksha king Puresh's son Tyushtyan with his Cuman allies devastated Purgaz's lands. There are two or three Russian Polovtsi name origin hypotheses: polov root meaning 'yellow, hay' is the most popular but more likely it came of Kievan population term for people coming from other, left bank of Dnieper, from onaia pola (literally: 'from that side') . --Khazar II (talk) 14:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Onia pola is Russian version of Finnish (Omalla) tuolla puolella (jokea). An interesting question - who borrowed from who -, even word Kieva lives in Finnish language still originally connecting the town in its original purpose. In word Kievari or Kestikievari, (Lodge Inn) meaning halting place along the road. In this case the water road to Byzantium. More modern word is majatalo. Today´s apartamentos. Did you know it was after the Kasaaris captured Kieva the largest slave trade center in Russia run by the Kievan Jews. It had a large orjatori (slave torg) and it supplied annually about 10.000 orjas (slaves) to Byzantium slave markets.


 * When telling this simple truth from eight different reliable sources it have a tendency to be deleted at ones from Wikipedia pages. Peharps simply telling the Jewish participation to slave trade is too much for certain peoples. Last time mentioned by ex - Estonian President late Dr. Lennart Meri of the part which the Finno Ugrians played in their side of this form of very profitable form of pedlar business. History is history with also not always nice happenings.
 * Thanks for information of bandit Russians escaping to the eastern direction. Not mention in any Finnish sources but several mentions of flood of peasants and Jews from Kieva. This seems to be the birth of Kasakka, Kasakoi, Kosakoi, the outlaw Cossacks in Russian history. My memory is not so good as it used to 40 years ago, but here is some other proof that this Purgazorkschi ( I suppose this form of the name is OK?) was very powerful Princedom, and all the Russian sources of that period must not taken so seriously and must be cross-checked before anything added in the main article. Please note Russian name varvar is in fact direct loan from Latina Barbar. Barbarous peoples.
 * Russian language has about 40 - 50 per cent loan words of Finno Ugrian languages, Germanic languages, and many taken direct from Latin. In addition 10 -15 per cent comes from Turkic and Mongol languages. Only 40 per cent is from Western Slavonic languages. I just wonder how many Russians named Ilya (Ilja) know that their forename is originated from Byzantium (Greek) word for Jerusalem. Ilya, literally, the Jerusalemer. But here you have also Mari name for Obran Osh. Ugarman. Obran is connected direct to Mansi and The Arctic Sea with Mursu (Odobenus rosmarus). Mursu name is also same in Finnish language. One famous Mursu family is well know and Finnish surename even in use today. According preserved old Finnish sources the Mursu was also called Sapelihammashylje (Sableteethseal, English Sabreteethseal) the name also known by Lapps (Saame /Sami). The Vepsäs Ves bought these from Nenetsi (Russian Samoyed, originating from Türk language word for Kannibaali, ie. man eater, the serverant of Baal) and Kveenus from Kuola Kola Lapps and sold them to Bagdad Baghdad Kalifate Caliphate through Mursula (Mursula Town). Secondly, two Arabi historians from Bagdad Kalifate have visited at Murshulla on their way to Valgetjärvi, both before 1220. The first one Abur Rahman Muhamad al Biruni in year 1000 AD, and the second Abdullah hamid ben Muhammad in 1133. These two were not the only Arabi visiters, but they both left for history a written text of their Risala to Valgetjärv, renamed later by the Navaharodians to Beloostrovi. They changed good quality Arab swords against Mursu sabre teeths which Nenetsi used as harpoons to make an easier Mursu hunt. In addition, Herodotos have mentioned Mursu or Hylje (seals) c.425 BC in his "History" connected with Budins on the shores of Great Lake behind Gelonos. It seems Obran Osh existed even that time. Some other historians of Greek origin have mentioned Mursu teeths were sold in Egypt and Roma as Ollifantti (Elephant) bone. Aika velmuja veijareita! (Quite a "smart" rogues.) I think this is enough to be also mentioned in separate article of Purgaz and peharps you can create an article of Obran Osh. One more proven fact; There was in Kultakallio (Golden Berg) at the shore of Laatokka a large fortress at Koverila as early as 1300 BC. There was also a large Kalmisto dating of those days and the Finns started archeological researches at near by Roksina (Ruoksina), Riukjärvi, and Piiskunsalmi stone age settlements. They found several items dating from Pronze Age c.1300 BC which included pronze swords made in Central Russia. Now preserved in Helsinki National Museum. They had to stop all in 1939. Who knows whar kind of findings the Russian treasury hunters have done in the Region after 1944. But the connection is clearly proved with this ancient trading route from Laatokka to Valgia and Oka Rivers and these traders have nothing to do with the Russian propaganda to sweeps out all mentions of Finno Ugrian traders on this route 1.600 years before they claim the founding of their Staraja Ladoga on the place of Karelian Luadogain Linna (The Castle of Rocky Islet Meri). There were magnificent changes that time in shape of nature when Neevaa, later shortened to Neva, was born and opened its course from Lake Laatokka to the Gulf of Finland from Luadogai Meri (in one Karelian dialect used name for Laadogan Meri, Laatokan Meri, direct transliteration to English; Rocky Islet Sea). This word describes the nature of the northern shore of this open (uava / aava) inland sea. The Russificated version Ladoga cannot be transliterated at all from Russian language to other languages showing the real name of this Inland (Mer) Sea. It is from these shores Merlin, merenelävä, sea liverer, knowledger of ancient eternaly came from sea to the Land of Anglizi (Anglos) sailing with his hopea, hobea / hobia, hobie (silver) purrellansa (purje, pursi) ship with sail purjehtien yli aavan meren ulapan, sailing over open seaback to the land of Anglizi (Engelanti) ie. land of Angels. Appearing to the lot (schloss) of Camelot (Kamelilinna) the Castle of Camel, the holy place of Celtic Keltti (Yellow) tales of the passed near memory. To form the tales of Ritterz of Kuningaz Arthuri (Azhuri), Sire Lanzeloti and Sire Gawaini (Gauivan). Ympär myö käyvvää, yhteen myö tullaan (Round we go, together we come) around the round table (pyöriä pöytä) meaning the round world. Because remember (before), Älä nuolaise ennenkun tipahtaa (Do not leap before it drops), ennenkuin karhu / otso / mesikämmen / metsän kuningaz on kaadettu, before the bear has been fallen down. The situation regarding the Äänisjärvi, Ääninen (Russificated; Ozero Onjega, = Änjega, this according to current practice transliterated to English in forms Aeaenisjaervi, Onyega, is the same than with Laatokka. Lake with loudly sounds. Valgetjärvi is lake which forms moon bridge over her water level in evenings and nights in the moonlight. In other meaning White Lake, a lake from where Human (you) can drink her water without boiling. Opposite Mustajärvi, Mustajoki, Mustapuro, Mustaläh(d)e, all black connected with water is not good for drinking without boiling it before drinking. (Old ancient Finno Ugrian describtion of different kind of nature waters.)

Tula Finns
The Tatar and Türk sources confirm the existence of Tula and Taula tribes. In Godunov map dating from 1612 the Tula was named Tule. Taula is also pure Finnish name for Kääpä, which is connected to birch trees. From it people made Tulus (or plural tulukset) which people used to set a fire, and carried with them to make easily fire. Alternatively, when talked of stupid hard headed people some named them taulapää (taula head). But what is important now it is confirmed that these people really existed, as mentioned by Leo Tolstoi, at Tula forrest areas as late than just before Napoleon´s attack to Russia in 1812. Edge is in Finnish Kiila. The Onugr connection is also known (Ugri Connection with Mansi and Hanti people). Have anyone there is Mardasland ever heard of Isolahti´s Leväluhta grave discovery in 1674 with nearly 100 well preserved bodies in Finland daing from Merovingi era? There is the key. Also remember the Hanti Kultainen Akka (Zolotana Babushka) which the bandite Jermak hunted until being killed near Obi by one Hanti warrior. You know the story of the treasures of the Konda? Taken as war booty from Roma with the Vandalis.
 * Well, it is interesting. Never heard of Tula tribes before. Tula is 'wedge' in Moksha and I believe I heard Moksha word tulaprä in the same meaning 'stupid person'. May be those people were in fact Meshcheras or Mokshas? --Khazar II (talk) 14:38, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I believe this is the truth. They had close connections with Kuuri people (half Balts and half Liivi Finns) from Kuurinmaa. Thus, the largely spread use of -ä and -ma in both Ersa and Moksha languages. -ö -mö came mainly from Mansi and Nenetsi. Komi Vörkuta is old Nenetsi Varkuta (in Finnish Karhula or Otsola). Close connection with all. Murdas language was much closer of Baltic Finnish languages than have been thought before in way of commercial language speken all over the area. And Swedes and Russians have nothing to do with this early trade.

Linguistical diversion of Ersa (Erza) and Moksha languages
It took quite a lot of time to grawl through all possible sources when it happened, but then I found the reliable source, totally omitted by Mordvin researchers as Professor Mokshin. The queastion is of research made by Finnish Toivo Lehtisalo and Hungarian Janosz Pusztay dating from 1935. They show that Moksha dialect had 7 / 20 principe loan words from western direction with direct link ro Kur (Kuuri) people which settled c.300 - 750 AD next of Mokshas on the west side from Oka. Ersa (Erza) dialect in turn was strong influenced by Nenetsi and Mansi languages both producing more than 500 loan words to Ersa (Erza) dialect 6 / 20 principe of common Mardas general language spoken by all Mardasi (Türk version Murdasa) heimos which included: Burttas, Tulas, Taulas, Metseräs, Mokshas, Muromis, and Ersas (Erzas). All collectively known also with name Mordvas. Thus the separation in linguistical meanings was started c.500 - 800 AD and finished c.1100 - 1200 AD when River become Lei / Läi, Village become Vele / Väle etc just showing one example. Moksha having many new words from westernly source and Ersa (Erza) from easternly sources. Janosz Pusztay even shows in his research that these Mansi heimos which lived between Ersa (Erza) and Magyar kansa (people) followed Onugr tribes and moved with them to Hungary, forming three out of ten Onugur tribes. Wichman found the direct linguistical connection and was the first to think of Moksha Onugur connection. The Mansi connection of mixing with Hungarians (Massageti) to form later the with Tatari connection the pre fathers of Boshkors.
 * Pardon, what were those Kuuri people you mentioned? Baltic speaking? There is a work of Lipetsk University proving Mokshas and Erzyas were under Antic influence, and Ants were Khanty, Slavs, Moksha and/or Erzya and some other tribes alliance. Moksha and Erzya both have this objective conjugation like Ugric languages (e.g. Moksha keljktд 'I love you' cf Hungarian szeretlek the same meaning where word ending indicates the object) but normally Finnic languages do not have it. So they probably borrowed this grammar category from their Ugric allies. --Khazar II (talk) 16:12, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes I do. The Ugri connection is well known in Finland with two different tribes, one of Hungarian origin and the second with Hanti origin. Both tribes live still in the Erdely area. One Finnish and one Hungarian professor researched this coneection as early as in 1912-1914.

Burttas
Because there is no other preserved written information of Burtta tribe I have to use Türk and Bolghar sources as their legendas and preserved historical oral memory of the early days of Burttas (700 - 500 BC) if expanding the main article. They had the most closest tights of Mardas heimos (tribes) or kansas (peoples) with Skyytas (Scythas). Comments?


 * Burtas are believed to be Mokshas and Alans (Iranian branch) alliance, | have a look on comments to Hudud al-'Alam. In fact I suppose ruling clans (Mokshan and Alanian) were talking Alanian language but ethnic Alans were a minority. It is just a hypothesis. --Khazar II (talk) 14:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Alanis were descenders of Massageti (Ugri) living between Caspian and Azov Seas. They did not dissapear nowhere as claimed in Indo-European history. Exist today with other names. Have anyone heard of Mogeris (Moksheri), Szeleksari (Székely), and Csángós? I think Iranians have nothing to do with the Burttas. It seems to be Indo- European propaganda. Neither Mokshas nor Metseräs. Iranians are too far away, only reaching Caucasus not far north. Only Kyyros and Dareios with their armies and both were driven back with blooded heads. In c.440 BC forefathers of Onugrs were called Massageti, leaving east of Scythians, a loose tribal union also with connections to Murdasa tribes. Connected also with hamppu (cannabis) when taking baths in their tents and drowing hamppu seed to hot stones. Compare also Altai Pazyryk mommies with cannabis use in their houses for their personal cleaning. First Cimmerians, dissapeared, wrong went to Apennine Peninsula. The Scythians, dissapeared, wrong were assimilated with Udmurt. Then Hunnis, dissapeared. Then Avaris, dissapeared. Then Alanis, dissapeared. Strange isn´t it? But the Finno Ugrians still lives today despite being before them and after them. Also Lithuanians and Latvians, the oldest Indo-Europeans in Europe. Take a look to Amber road (talk).

Tatarized Mokshas and Ersas
Are there detailed information available in Saran Osh of the origin of Misääri Tatari tribes who according to some Finnish sources are Tatarized Mokshas and Ersas (Erzas). They lived mainly in four different areas; Narotshat / Narocat (Narovat Mizhärs), Temijakovi, (Temjakov Mizhärs), Kazimov (Kasimi or Quazim Mirzhärs, and Särgäzi (Serhatsh) Sergäz Mizhäris. There were also those Tatarized Ersas (Erzas) who lived east of Rav / Rava, called Mukshasi Ersas (Erzas). Imperial Censor As-Mari (noble born Mari) (Russian Azmarin) a Tshuvasologist, have claimed Palkhari (Tshuvassi) and Volkhari (Bolghari) were people with combined Bolgar and Finno Ugrian roots and spoked different language than Tatar language in Volga region.
 * Misääri Tatart are Meshchera finnic people who partly converted to Orthodox Christianity and were assimilated by Russians, the rest converted to Islam and shifted to Tatar language. Narovchat is Russian name for Moksha Norzjad city (tatar. Mohshi). Meshcheras always lived there in Oka river valley (including Norzjad, Temnikov, Kasimov and Sergach lands) and they had their Meshchera principality till XV c. It is possible some Mokshas could join them but not Erzyas. Never heard of tatarized Erzya communities and I believe Mukshasi Ersas is a mistake unless we speak of Shokshas (who are partly mokshanized Erzyas). I met some hypotheses Bulgars or Chuvashes could be of Finnic origin but no archeological or any data proving it. --Khazar II (talk) 15:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I wait connecion from Finnish Misääri side, before say anything. They use latinized new Kasaani (Quazan) Tatar alphabets here. Metseräs is the Finnish name of this Mardas tribe. I try to find connection with Vatjas, have seen ones such a possibility in one source. At least all Mardas heimos or kansas were righ on that source`s information.

Tambovi (Morzhan) Karelians
This episide is not known well in Mardasland. After the Peace Treaty of Stolbova in 1617 some Romanoff supporters in Moskova swored revenge to Sweden (- Finland) by taken Holy Russian Land. They turned to ask help from powerful Russian Orthodox Church. This "War Party" managed to talk over Mardas born Patriach (Patriarkka) Nikon to join their revenge party and they managed in this. Through Orthodox Churches in Ingermanland and Karelian Isthmus in addition to Laatokka Karelia all orthodox priests talked of horrible Lutherian Ruotshis (means Swedes and Finns) who wanted to destroy the One and Only Correct Religion in Karelia and Ingermanland. This anti Lutherian propaganda spreaded in all villages in Karelia in 1654 - 1656 with stories that the Orthodoxs are burned alive if they do not take "kerettiläinen" Lutherian baptizmus. When two thirds of the Swede Finn army were tied in Central Europe mainly Poland, the Muscovites striked across Laatokka to Rautu, Tiurala and Salmi with small boats they had been able to collect in 1656. This simultaneous strike have been described by modern Finnish historians as commando operation to save the Orthodox Brothers souls from Pagan Lutherians approred by Nikon. And sure it was a successful operation. The local Karelians were forced into Russian boats to be saved from awful Ruotshis and escape into safety inside Russia among the Orthodox Brothers. Many of them leaved their homes, mainly from Rautu and Tiurala Pogostas. According to Finnish church books as many as 4.000 leaved with the Russians on July 14. 1656. When returned to Staraja Ladoga (Vanha Laatokka) there were värväri (recruiters) of Russian noble man who wanted more land workers to their estates. They promised ten beatiful things and 12 good things (old saying) if they settle in their land owners estate as free peasants only goving the usual one thenth tax to noble land owner. Most of them went to Tihveri´s (Tver) Torska (Torzhok) area but many families wandered as far as Tambovi area near Morzhan. I do not for sure know who this Knjäz (Ruhtinaz) was who owned the huge estate, but my best guess is the Obolenski family near Tula. Rumoured to be of Finno Ugrian roots origin. These Karelian families settled among local Mardas (Moksha) villages founding at least Raksha, Lemki, Olhi, Karjala (now Kareli), Sosnovka (Petäjistö), Otjassi, Savinin-Karpela or Korpela, Suur-Karjala (now Kareli) and Lämkinä (now Lamki) villages. There were nearby also many Moksha villages along nearby River Cna (Sana). They seems to have later mixed with the Moksha or the Russian population in the area. All knowledge of them is missing after 1721. One more village Piitimä (now Pitim) was found also to be of Karelian origin renamed after Piitimänjoki. Their later fate has remained a total mystery in Finland. That is known the free peasants were gradually lost their independence as free peasant and become eventually called as "State Slaves". Direct link to Massageti through that path, impossibe to understand by Indo-Europeans despite direct mentioned by Herodotos in his text. See also Sakaliba and sauna connection. Only Finno Ugrians and Turaani´s used the sauna / tumuli. Finnish army is the only one in the world even today using tent saunas in jotos to keep its soldiers clean during action training.
 * I found the source where these Korelis (Karelians) are also mentioned. By Academic Kustaa Vilkuna in his book of War Stories of Finnish Warriors dated by 1922. In one chapter where the Karoliinis (Karolingis), Finnish soldiers in Swede Army during the Great Northern War 1700 - 1721. It was through this area, village named Kareli, the prisoners of war (POW) where transported by the Russian Army after the total defeat at Pultava (Poltava) on their march to Moskova to be shown at Thriumphe of Peter I for the Moscowers as the Emperors had done in Roma, when the villagers shouted to passing captured soldiers "If you ever are avilable to reach Finland again, please tell there that here lives 4107 Korelois in these villages. So that our kins know that here we live under bad conditions". This happened in 1709. Then the last message came via some Karolings when they released from captivity in 1721 when passing the area, that there lived cnsiderably population of "Greek faith Karelians" who spoked Korelian. This is the last mention ever reached Finland of them.
 * Very intersting. I heard something of it before but without details, dates. Sounds true. You are talking of Mokshan town and nearby villages. Will try to find something in Russian sources. --Khazar II (talk) 15:51, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I try find more of their names the tax payers list of 1632 of Tiurala Pogosta. Available in Finnish Wikipedia. Have you heard of Karelian, Vepsä, and probably also Mari, Ersa, and Moksha Kalpamiehet or Kalpangit (other name for them is Kobljakis) meaning Swordsmans propecting the traderoutes. How is the Moksha neme Kuzminravkasse for Tver? These Kobljakkis served also in Byzantium as merceanary soldiers, but were not Scandinavians. What is sauna in Ersa and Moksha?

Mardas Boys In World Again
The Mardasland boys were seen in trip again. This time taken part of occupying Gori in Georgia in uniform of the Army of Russian Federation, as a members of spearhead unit. Sounds quite familiar from history. New target, but same old tricks again. But in Poti, the Altai and Burjaatti boys did the same job. How I know this? Simple, all so called "western" media people did not pay any attention to the origin of the soldiers. For them all of them were Russians, but for Finns and Estonians who checked the origin of the soldier boys this become clear with interviews of the soldiers. Also BBC showed in World News these Burjaatti boys in Poti. Old tradition which still lives strongly in Russian army. Then tsuhodoi observerving officers from ETYJ (European Security and Co-Operation Organization) reported this. So small is the world today. All happens in real time in our TV set. News are spreading all around the world so fast that the traditional old fashioned propaganda maschine was not prepared for fast counter strike of this. Old tricks, same methods again and again. I record here what has happened with "Panzerwagen Policy" during my lifetime on which the Mardas boys have taken part; Eastern Poland in September 1939, Finland November 1939 - March 1940, Bessarabia June 1940, Estonia August 1940, Latvia August 1940, Lithuania August 1940. After World War Two (Great Patriotic War); In Berlin in June 1953, Budapest October 1956, Praha August 1968, Afganistan August 1978 to February 1989, Vilnius 1991, Riga 1991, Tallinn 1991, Moskova 1991, Izhkeria 1993, Izhkeria again 2001, now 2008 Gori and Poti in Georgia. "The enemy (NATO) is coming closer and closer. We do not like that and to be told by them don´t worry. We want respection and being treated as equal basis." Kosovo trauma lives strongly in Moskova. What Gavrilo Princip done in last Sunday morning hours in June 1914 in Sarajevo opened new chapter in World History. All this was of the result of two local Balkan Wars in 1912 and 1913. Serbia got the Lion´s Share of the fruits of victory, including Kosovo. Also Makedonia including the Bulgarian part of it. In addition this young schoolboy then aged 17 years fell to a victim of Serbian pan-nationalistic propaganda spreaded oppenly by Black Hand Secret Society under Colonel "Apis", who himself was executed by refuge Serbian Government order at Saloniki in 1917. What about Gavrilo Princip? According to the Austrian law no person under age if 18 years could not be senected to death by hanging. He was senected to life time prisonement under hard conditions. He was transfered from Sarajevo to Military Prison at Therezienstadt in Bohemia were he was kept in under earth sell and was only allowed 15 minutes per day walking in prison area. He become sick and died just couple of months before Austria asked the terms under Woodrow Wilson´s declaration of 1917. All others over 18 years who took active part of Archduke Frans Ferdinand´s assasination plan were hanged in Sarajevo prison. This way an old civilized Monarchy honoured its laws. What about the increased area on expense of its neighbourgs. After 1918 Slovenia, Kroatia, Dalmatia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina in addition to Sandzhak Region between Montenegro and Kosovo. Also Slavonia, and Voivodina, Torontali and part of Banat all ceded into the Kingdom Of Serbs, Kroats, and Slovenes remamed in 1933 Jugoslavia. After World War Two Istrian Penisula with Pola, and Zara and Fiume from Italy. A sad example when treaties made in Versailles and Triano placed different peoples and cultures under one center of political power, Belgrad (Beograd). Only ones during period 1919 - 1939 the prime minister of Jugoslavia was Kroatti, all the time a Serb. No wonder that the Kroatti units of Royal Jugoslavian Army waited in strenght of Brigade in Parade Column the arriving Deutsche Panzers in Zagreb on April 10, 1941. Whole system crashed down and area was splitted in Rome later in 1941 to form independent Kroatia (which took also a good deal of Bosnia) and nominally independent Serbia, the rest was shared by Hungary, Germany and Italia in their occupation zones. Independent Kroatia under leadership of Ante Pavelic was consided by Western Allies and Soviet Union as puppet state under puppet regime under Adolf Hitler´s personal puppet Ante Pavelic´s direct rulership. His Ustasha movement is too well known even today in Serbia and Bosnia. Serbia was ruled by offical Cetnikki leader, an old Serb General. Then in 1941 - 1945 conservative Cetnikis started armed resistance under Colonel Draha Mihailovic and a Horvatti (Kroat) Communist Josip Broz under cover name Tito started his own resistance movement named Partisan in honour of those old Spanish freedom fighters in Espanja (Spain) who resisted Napoleon´s rule in Espanja during the Napolenic Wars. Then in 1941 - 1945 all fighted against each other with extreme brutality. When visited in Dubrovnik, also called Ragusa, with its beautiful harbour Gravosa located in Kroatia, in 1989 all talked openly that the war is coming between different ethnic groops. Outside hotel during the cover of darkness the yangster gangs of different ethnic and religion back round skirmished with each other using bottles, knives and all what was suitable to beat each other. When changed the holiday destination to Kotor Bay or Bocche di Cattaro in Montenegro side, all was calm and peaceful as one should wait from his summer vacation. Local sorrow minded Montenegrian folksongs were singed in the evenings in hotel gardens drinking Slivovich, and people felt sorrow knowing what is coming of Jugoslavia. That was my last visit to Jugoslavia.

This state was kept together until 1991 when it started split again to form independent Slovenia, Kroatia, Serbia and Makedonia. Bosnia - Herzegovina declared her selves also to be independent but what happened there is too well known in history. Montenegro remained merged with Serbia but at last took also its own direction toward independence. Kosovo was all what the Serbs had left and when lost it the wheel had rounded whole circle returning the position to that what it was in June 1914. Only those areas which were taken from Hungary; Slavonia, Voivodina, Torontali and fromer Jugoslavian part of Banat have remained under Serbian admistration as part of Serbia. all this in less time than in one hundred years. Such is history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.170.38 (talk) 05:54, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Kamelis / Kemelis and Obran Osh
I found a strange mention of Baktrian Camels used on winter caravane route from Obran Osh via Arzamas, Kemelj, Sara to south of Bilgäri when the river was covered with ice c. 700 - 900. It was also mentioned that paloviina (Fire spirit) Votka (Spiritus fortus), came through this route from Baktria to Mardasland. It was used by those traders as medicine, to be taken only in small "kulaus".

I just wonder came the word kameli into Baltic Finno Ugrian languages from east or from south. Anyway, there is an old saying "On sitkeä kun kameli. (Is tough as camel). An other old saying is of interest "Mauri on tehtävänsä tehnyt, Mauri voi mennä". (Mauri has done his work, Mauri can go.) Mauri is old Finno Ugrian word for "darker coloured" North African origin people, Berberi (Kabyyli), not Arabs. But also old Finnish forename for men.  Also used word Murjaani from (old version words) singed by Tiernapojat (Star Boys) from 1550s from Oulu area students in their Christmas performance to collect money for their student time in Turku / Åbo Higher School). The origin of this performance is not known but it is very old, peharps dating from Merovingi age. Murjaani can also be found in old Russian word Aran. Ants is from old fashioned Russian word "Antitshnyj" in shortened form. Elder (ancient) timerers, which seems to have been taken from direct Latina word loan Antiquente. As an interesting detail word Ants is also used by Mr J.R.Tolkien in his very popular "Trilogi Saga Lord of the Ring" where Ants are living ancient trees sourrounding Saruman´s bad eye high tower. A fafourite story of couple my grand children. Tolkien learned Finnish language to understand the Kalevala and used it as one source combined with old Celtic deities to create his imagenation world of Kontu Hobitis to show the Frodo´s adventures against Sauron´s bad eye.

Is the name Ösmäni known there in Mardasland, used from people of Ottomanni origin of themselves. There are two types, looking as harder Finno Ugrians (light skin) and then softer Persian look (darker skin) with typical Persian faces and noses. There are too types of Ösmäni women. They look totally different, Persian soft beaty with dark hears and other with "hard" beauty with hears like red-brown crown surroundind their faces, but not like Irish and Bretoni (Keltti) origin women.

Mardas Horses
Did the horses used my Mardas people differ from those used by the Slavonic peoples? The Estonians and Finns had both coldblood horses, called later Eesti hevonen and Suomen hevonen. They are known to have been used since 3.000 - 2.500 BC and are nearest to Mongolian wild horse known also as Przewalsk horse. Each Finno Ugrian people had developed their own special horse race. There was also Tarpani horse which had lived in Southern Russian Plain. These coldblooded horses were callen Klepper horse (in Estonia), Finn horse (in Finnland), Karelian horse ( in Karelia and Vepsä), Vatja horse ( in Ingermanland and Novgorod / Uuslinna). The Latvians used also the Estonian Klepper horse. The Lithuanins, Kuuris, Old Prussians, North Poles and Krivitshis had developed their own horse race named Shamalit-, or Zhmutka horse. The Finn horse is closest to the Mongolian horse. Unfortunately the knowledge of horses which were used by Volga Finns is missing in western history writing. Later the Russians developed for themselves so called warmblooded Orlov race but I suppose this horse appeared quite late to the pages of horse history about 1600 - 1700´s. If the Finno Ugrians brought with them horses from near by Mongolia why not also Camels of Bactrian origin. Despite being very hard and goog fellow, the Finn horse have never found favour amomg the Indo - European peoples who preferred larger horses. The Finn horse and its relatives can live in hard climatic conditions compader to those horses which have been used in Central Europe. They were used by Finnish Cavalry units as long as Cavarly units existed. Mardas and Tarpani horses? The Cossack horses were developed from Tarpani horses. Mardas people developed at least strong and powerful work horse for their agricultural purpuses. I do not know the name for this horse race.

Ersa (Erzä), Moksha and Finnish troops side by side
It seems that this possibily has been possible only in the battles of Kljushino (July 1610) and in Balkan War in 1877 - 1878 in Bulgaria. Usually they were always on opposite sides since 1552 after the Fall Of Kazan (Quazan). The battle of Klushino is interesting. Took any Mardas (Mordvin) units part to it with Dimitri Shuiski´s Army near Smoliensk (Smolensk) against the Lithuanians and Poles.

Risala of Abu Hamid al Harnati in 1150
Are there any further information available of Abu Hamid al Harnati´s journey from Itil Bolgharia to Hungary in 1150. He travelled through Sakaliba country and mentions the town of Gur Kuman where the people looks like Türks, speak like Türks and shoot arrows like Türks but are not Türks. This town of Gur Kuman or Gurkuman (Kurkuman) was west of Itil but east of Kieva. The Gur kuman is the Arabic name for this town. The Sakaliba people were called also Sorotshinets (Suratshinets) and by Armenians Kharteshi. Some western sources name them also Falones and Phaligi. When looking the map Abu Hamid al Harnati must have travelled through Mardasland. Two other towns also also named in other Risala named Vai.b.nit, Vabnit or Vantit and Kurdap or Khudud or Kurtap. (Kur?) These both names dates before the Mongolians arrived.

Burttas lived also on the west bank of Rav / Rava south east of Purgazma land. Could they be ancestors of Tetsushi Murdasas? Tetjushi (Tetljushi) had in 1913 the population of 4.500 inhabitants. This area was also known as Berg Ufer (Cliff Bank) by the Saratov (Volga) Germans.

Population Figures on Januray 1 / 14, 1913 for some towns in Volga Area

 * Moskva 1.650.000 (Moskova)
 * Alatyer 20.000 (Alatir)
 * Ardatoff 3.500 (Ardatov, Ordanbije)
 * Arzamas 11.000 (Erzamasi)
 * Belebei 7.000
 * Bugulma 8.500
 * Buguruslan 15.000
 * Buzuluk 165.000
 * Kazan 162.000
 * (Kursk 57.000)
 * Kozmodemjansk 5.500 (Tsykma, Cykma)
 * Kurmuish 2.500 (Kurmuisi)
 * Melekes 8.500 (Mäläkäsi)
 * Nizhnij Novgorod 92.000 (Obran Osh / Ugarman / / Mursula / Alinen Uuslinna / Lower Newtown)
 * (Orenburg 74.000) (Ordanbije, Orjänlinna, -kreposti)
 * (Oufa 103.000) (Ufa, Uuvaa)
 * Penza 64.000 (Pensa / Pänsa)
 * (Perm 47.000) (Permi / Pärmi)
 * Riazan 36.000 (Räsäni / Riasani)
 * Samara 95.500 (Sämäri)
 * Saratoff 198.000 (Sarabije, Saratupa)
 * Simbirsk 56.500 (Simbije)
 * Spassk (Kazan) 3.000 (Bilär / Viläri)
 * Stavropol 50.000 (renamed later Togliatti / Toljati)
 * Syzran 45.500
 * Tamboff 52.000 (Tampova)
 * Tetljushi 4.500
 * (Toula 110.000) (Tula)
 * (Voronezh 79.000) (Voronesi)
 * Zemljansk 2.500 (Maanääri = Ma´aeri = Mekeri = Makiari / Magiari)
 * Zlatoust 34.000

All these firures are in list of principal Russian towns on January 1 / 14 1913 published by Imperial Russian Statistical Central Bureau (The last reliable figures for Russia) and preserved in Tilastokeskus Archive Helsinki. Figures are rounded to nearest full thousand or 500.

Tula Finns (Cont.)
I just looked that name Edge / Wedge has has another name in one of the Finnish dialects. In Kainuu (Kvenuland) is the church village named Vaala which also means Wedge. It is located at the neck of Oulujoki which streams to Kainuunmeri (old name), later named Gulf of Bothnia. This preserved describtion was found (preserved in Southhampton University, England);
 * Attila ruled the Huns, Eormanric the Goths, Becca the Baningas, Gifica the Burgundians, Cacsar the Greeks, Caelic the Finns, Hagena the Holmryghas, Henden the Glomman, Witta ruled the Swacfe, Wada the Haclsingas.

This text dates before 450 AD and is one of the oldest where some North-, and East European peoples are mentioned by the writer who lived in the days of Attila.

The saying "Toist puolt jokkee" (The other side of river) is common also in Turku (note this Finnish name with connection with Turk-xx which appear in place names around or near Arzamas). The origin for Turku has not clearly been soved in Finland. It might have connections to Kuuri or Liivi languages. The Russian Torgovaja must be dropped out as Turgui? existed as small trading place before Novgorod was born to the neck of Olhavanjoki where it starts from Ilmajärvi. Turku is divided by Aurajoki (Plough River), and just when looking to the sky the several Kurkiaura (Crane ploghs) fly to the south, only to return in next spring. Kurki is famous old Finnish kin with Bishops, Admirals, Colonels and still exist in Finland. Near to Turku is Korosteinmäki (Korostein hill) the place where the fisrt Catholic Bishops in Finland had their Piispanlinna (Bishop Castle). Kuurinmaa (Kurima) was originally Kurjenmaa ( Craneland), in Latin Curonia. Russians used Kor name for Kuuri people. And Scythians bought the plough from Asia with them. The shape of Kurkiaura.

Husein Naruchad
The Murza of Kasimov named Husein Naruchad become ruler of Kasim(ov) (former Metseränkaupunki) in 1326. His successer was Beklemäsh Huseininpoika (Russian version Bahmet Useinovitsh) who was baptized and to honour this occassion built an Orthodox church into village of Andrei (Antero?) (Russian Andrei Gorodok).

Last Finno Ugric Metserä Ruhtinaz was Aleksanteri Ukonpoika (Aleksandr Ukovitsh) who lived by the time of Dimitri Donjokelainen (Dimitri Donriverer). How the Inäzor Baushka is connected with these? Bauska is also small town in Latvia, south of Väinäjoki (Daugava) River, west of Väinänlinna (Daugavpils). There is also Ärsikkä (Krivitshi dialect: Jersika). Russians have made Väinäjoki Zapadnaja Dvina because in their Kyrillic letters are not letter Ä / ä. It means totally different than Vienajoki (Severnaja Dvina). Please note similarity between Moksha Bauskanin and Finnish Pauskanen. -nin and -nen after the basic form of surename meaning from Bauska. Suranin / Suranen, Auranin / Auranen (Ploghoner) Kurkinen (Kranerer / Cranerer), etc. Jokinin / Jokinen = Riverer. Dimitri Donjokelainen = Dimitri Donriverer.

Mordva (Mardas) villages in Tatarstan
There is a village named Mordva in Tatarstan about 20 km south of Agryz. Just north of the border between Udmurtia and Tatarstan is a village named Malaja Purga (Purgaz?).In the area are also non Tatar and Russian origin villages Tukai, Tersi, Tshurashur (Surasur) and Tuba. Are these (still) populated with Ersa (Erzä) inhabitants?

Villages in Tatarstan Oblast which are linked with Mordvins (Mardas).

1) Area west of Rava (Volga); Pustie Morkvashi (Mordvashi), Naberezhnije Morkvashi (Mordvashi), Lesnije Morkvashi (Mordvashi), (Svijaga) Goroditshe, Imjanje-Burtas, Tegeshjevo (in Tshuvassian side), Karamasary, Tukai, Karatalha, Bolshoi Burtasi, Malaja Burtasi, Murzino, Burtasi, Murza - Berlibashi, Karhaly, Nizhnij Ozero, Kanash, Koshki, Novoselki, Tabar-Tsherki, Nurlaty, Ahma-metjevo, Ishmjakovo - Tsherki, Koshakovo - Tsherki, Tsherki - Hrishino, Ak Kül, Tonsherma, Medvedjevka, Tetjushi, Prolej - Kasha, Koshki - Novotimbajevo, Kanava, Koshki - Shemjakino, Koshki - Tenjakovo, Mordovskije - Tjuki (in Tsuvassian side), Motshalej, (Bolshoi Jakla) Goroditshe.

2) Area east of Rava (Volga) and north of Kama; Koshar (- Ashit), Moksha (- Ashit), Novaja - Kurlaj (Kurläj)(on Ija River), Karatai (on Sarda), Koshkino (on Burjetsh), Tarlej (on Inysh), Mukshur (Mokshar) (on Tshazh), Mordva (on Tshazh), Tuba (on Izh), Nurma (on Mezha), Karatai (Sabinskij Rajon), Mishka Ovrag, Karaishevo / (Karataivälje) (on Mesha).

3) Area east of Rava (Volga) and south of Kama; Karmaly (on Sheshma), Staraja Karmaly (on Kalmija), (sub village) Novaja Karmaly, Koshki (on Bezdna), Mordovskije Bulag (on Bulatshka), Inzar (on Sheshma), Staraja Karmala (on Samara Oblast side), Novaja Karmala (church village on Samara Oblast side), Biljar Ozero, Tshernoje Ozero, Stepnoje Ozero, (all three on Sultsha), Mordovskoje Afonkino, Mordovskoje Karmalka, Mordovskoje Ivanovka, Karahai, Mukmin - Karatai, Karkali, Zai - Karatai (on Shugurovo district), Medjedka, Zireklej Karan, Murtaza, Karkale, (Karkalej) (on Bugulma district).

The above list is far from complete but can be taken as quite reliable source, compeled by the former Director of Finland´s Lutherian Church Help Organisation, Doctor of Theology, late Tapani Saraneva. He travelled widely in the area in 1990´s during the Boris Jeltsin era without any restrictions.

War-Skriek Marthas / Secret Name Mardas
I think with slimmer provision package the connection has been made to connect the origin of the (Concentrate) All To Gether, Alles Zu-Sammen, to form the name of Mardasland or Marthasland, The Land of Togetherness = Togarma (Tokarmanmaa / Tokarmaland), (in Türkish language connected with Kasaaris, Khazaris), with Limigantaes on the banks of Tissalei / Tisaläi in Phennonia / Pannonia / Phannoniae. This with Karmalei / Karmaläi / Karma-ava / Karmavele / Karmaväle / Karmaküll / Karmakule / Karmiankylä etc. This is a direct linguistical connection inside Finno Ugrian language families. Karma (Destiny), compare with Baltic Finnish Karmia, Kauhea, Kaamea, (Horrible), also Karsia (cut off the twigs from tree / Awful). Horrible destiny = Karmia karma (kohtalo). When linking the words along the ancient trade routes no wonder that they appear in nearly similar form in nearly all Finno Ugrian languages. Karma is also borrow word in Japanese language coming from not Japanese origin Ainu people with similar bear fell "riitti" (rhithic) than found in Phennonia offered By Taifali and described by Historicae Romana for coming generations. Most Indo-European scholars connect the word Kara / kara with Türkic languages. Infact kara appears also in Finno Ugrian language groups meaning in Baltic Finnish languages synonyme for terä (blade). Aurankara (Ploughblade). Does not sound Indo-European at all much more pure Asiatic word. Ankara = Severe, Turkki = Fur Pelt. This combination by using same words but for different meanings is the ancient connection between the two language groups in past ancient times in Central Asian Altai area. The mythic and mysterious " Seitsenvirranmaa" Seven Stream Land and later in the Kasaarienmaa / Khazar(istan), located south of Burtasiland on the aromaa (steppe land) below the forest zone.

Lip(i)etski University´s Research of Ants
Excuse moi, but to which centuries this Lipetsk University´s research is targeted? The word Ants could also be Russificated form of Hants (Hanti) from where the hard H / h is, as common practice in Kyrillic old Church Slavonic language, had been dropped out. Please do notice, that the Kyrillic X / x (KH / kh) cannot replace hard Latin H / h in Finno Ugrian languages as it is pronounced. The Kyrillic H / h is Latin N / n, and this has in past years confused many western scholars who were not familiar with neither Slavonic nor Finno Ugrian languages. Thus, a number of confusions which still appear in Indo-European histories. When I look the map Nr.16 in Eino Kuussaari work dating from 1935, there are mentioned these non Russian origin place and river names located in this area; settlements; Korosten, Karma, Sumsatshi (Sumsatsi), Orsha (Orsa), Narinsk (Nari) an der Nar, Potshep (Potsepi / Potseppä), Brjansk, trading place an der Oka (Debrian, Debriand = de Briand a Norman an der Oka), Kolomna (Koloman / Kolomana), Moskova, Kieva / Kiova ( Kvenugård from Kainulinna) an der Dinjeper, Sudimir, Silkov (Silkova), Metshev (Metseva), Moshonki (Mosonki), Kozelsk (Kozielski, Koselka), Kaluga (Kaluka / Kalugai), Kotelva (Kottleva), Poltava (Polttava), Harkova (Harkkova), Mereva (Merreva), Sumi (Suomi), Peni = Koira = Dog, (also Pieni / Pien = Small), Susdzha, Objan (Obijan), Zhigajeva (Sigajeva), Kur (Kursk = an der Kur), Kolpni (Kolpny, Kolpnin), Tim (Timis / Tämäs), Terepus (Terebush / Terebusi), Marmyshi (Marmusi), Volova, Turovo (Turova or Turovai), Voronesi an der Vorona, Mordovo (Mordova) an der Bitjug (Vitjog), Otjassy (Otjassi), Mordovo (Mordova) an der Para, Jekimos, Spaska (Sapaska), Tyrnovo (Tyrnävä) an der Istja, Muromino (Muromina), Räsäni (Riasani) an der Oka, Saraisk (Sara an der Sara), Venev, Odojev (Odojevei), Mtsensk (Metsen) an der Oka, Orjel (Orjala) an der Oka, Tula an der Upa, Bolhov (Volhova / Olhova), Sievsk (Sievi) an der Siev. These are only the larger settlements mentioned by Kuussaari (Granö) who based his work to the P.I. Jakobi map published in St.Petersburg in 1907. Named "Vjatitsi Orlovskoj Gubernij". These names are mostly outside of the Viatitsi (people from Viatka River) main population area, which was between Oka and Desna (Tesna) Rivers reaching as far south as to Kieva River (tributary of Dinjeper).

Please note direct link with Obijan Khaqan Bek of Obijan with the Khazarian Khaqans (Kaanit). Similar connection is found with Karatai Mardas (Murdasa). Peharps a closer look for late Knjäz Obolensky´s (Obolinski´s) magnum opus should be taken seriously in Russia of the origins of Khazars. In Wikipedia the article gives too much weight to the Jewish population in Khazaristan. They formed only about ten to fifteen per cent of the total population there, many were immigrants from Andalusia (Vandalusia) of Cordoba Kalifate and from Palermo in Sicilia, todays Sisilia (Sicily).

The Rivers of non Russian origin names; Ipa, (tributary of Pripiet), Lahva, Vop, Solja, Osma, Varja, Sesha, Viazma (Viasma), Ut, Iput, Vaga, Slot (Lot) = Castle, Unetsha (Unetsa), Vjetma (Vietma), Siev, Usozha (Usosa), Sudost (Sudosti), Rog (Rogai), Navlja, Kalahva, Bolva (Volva), Kroma, Tson (Toson), Orlik (Orliki), Jazva, Ista, Upa (Upai), Urga, (Ugri = Ogur / Okur), Oka (Joga, Jog, Jokai, Joki, Jug, Jugai, Jug = River), Moskva (Maskava, Maskavas, Maskavai, Moskova, Moshka, Moska, Moskua), Tsna, (Tosna), Kolp (Kolppa).

Quite a list indeed. Had Jakobi and Kuussaari had better topographical maps, they would have produced much better lists than in 1907 and 1935. This is sometimes hard to believe by some Russian younger generation researchers, that even Moskova (the hearth land of Russian nation have been formely the homeland of Finno Ugrian peoples. Anyway in Imperial Russia and Finland the researchers were able to do their research in Multi Ethnic Roshjiland, not restricted of Panslavic "Third Roma Doctrine" despite such national feelings spread among inside circles of the Slavonic "Heritager Doctriners" inside Imperial Russia. Despite of the offical "State Censorship" the word was quite free and the constitutional principles were honoured. Nadezhdin published even better maps, but unfortunately I have not found copies of them, but his text is available, thanks for the Karelian researchers in Petroskoi University. This is comparable with the situation of the Inkerenmaa (Ingermanland, Ingria) around St. Petersburg. It is sometimes hard to understand for todays St.Petersburger that less than a hundred years ago the Finnish Inkerinmaa inhabited with mostly Finnish, Inkerikko, Äyrämös, Savakos, Vatjas, Tshuds, Karelians, and Estes, started where the metrolines ends in surrounding areas of St. Petersburg. Even the Tsarskoje Selo, Peterhof, Oranienbaum, Schlüsselbürg, and Veimarn (Veimari) were surrounded by the Finnish speaking villages. Why would the Tsar of all Russians live surrounded by the ethnic Finnish villagers living in Serepetta, Skouritsa, Tuutari, Sornua, Venjoki, Hietamäki, Kaarosta, Yhinmäki, Siestarjoki, Keltto, Murje, Muuritsa, Valkeasaari, Muurino, Kolppana, Lempaala, Venjoki, Raasuli and in hundred of other Finnish villages around the Inkerenmaa. Maybe because he was in 1914;
 * Emperor and Autocrat of all the Russians, and of Moscow, of Kieff, of Vladimir, of Novgorod; Tsar of Kazan, of Astrakhan, of Poland, of Siberia, of Kherson - Taurida, of Grusi; Gosudar of Pskoff, Grand Duke of Smoliensk, of Lithuania, of Volhynia, of Podolia, of Finland; Prince of Estonia, of Livonia, of Kurland, of Semgalia, of the Samoyeds, of Bielostok, of Karelia, of Foers, of Ingor, of Perm, of Vyatka, of Bulgaria and of other Balkan Countries, master and Grand Duke of the Lower Countries of Novgorod, of Tehernigov, of Ryazan, of Polotsk, of Rostoff, of Yaroslaff, of Vieloselsk, of Urdork, of Odobsk, of Kondinsk, of Vitelsk, of Mstilaff, and all the counties north; Master Absolute of Iversk, of Katalinsk, of Kabadvinsk, and of territory of Armenia; Sovereign of the Mountain Princes of Tcherkask; master of Turkestan, Heir Presumtive of Norway and Duke of Schleswig -Holstein, of Stormarne, of Dithmarschen, and of Oldenburg. Only titulär "Grand (Dalai) Lama of Mongols, of Tuvians, and of Tibetans" was still missing in addition of the titurär "Emperor of Mantshuria and Han Kitais."

Avvakum Petrov 1620 - 1682
I wonder who deleted the Kaminskis out of the list of notable Mokshans. Could that person provide here the testemony that Kaminski family was not of Mokshan origin. If not, I return them in the list. The same barbarismus against the Orthodox Church sources of the Avvakum Petrov. If the person can PROVIDE a RELIABLE source here, that he was not Erzä by origin, please show it here. It seems very strange if any of the famous Mokshas do not appear in the pre revolution times in Imperial Russia. The Madras peoples were very honoured soldiers in Imperial Russian Army. Why none of them are not mentioned? If the northern part of the Finno Ugrians (Finns) with the population of 2,2 millions in 1809 and 3,3 millions in 1917 could provide in 1809 - 1917 70 Admirals and 411 Generals in the OFFICAL list of the Imperial Russian Army and Imperial Russian Navy, there should be (according to solder reputation of Mardas people) at least 150 - 170 Mardas origin Generals in the Imperial Russian Army General ranking list with their RUSSIFICATED NAMES. If Aleksanteri Syvävaara a Karelian Finn, received a rank of Generalissimus from Empress Katariina (Catherine) despite that she knew well that Suvorovin (Syvävaaran) Aleksanteri from Kiveliön village of Novgorodi Koriela was a Tshuhodoi, it did not prevent her to reward her loyal serverant with the Titulär Generalissimus after capture of Varsova. And the titulär Generalissimus do not make him ethnic Russian. So, please do not act as uncivilised lower educated boor with unmannerly habits. It is not the fault of Finns if the original pages of Russian history was changed by direct order of Josif Vissianarovnin poika Dzhugasvili an ethnic Gruzy from town named Gori. Or peharps this is also worth of deleting. You cannot keep for ever the history as you think it should be written. That is stupidness. For comparation please make a closer look of this internationally respected scholar´s analyse of Idel- Ural. Antero Leitzinger Russia and the Kipchak Course in The Eurasian Politician - Issue 1 (May 21th, 2000) http://users,jyu.fi~aphala/pc/issue1/art9.htm Or try word Kipchak for founding the article. Peharps it must also be deleted because it has not nice text of the Russian point of view. So strong are the roots of eternal state censorship anchored in Russian thinking.

When finishied my text in the main article I provide complete list of ALL EXISTING SOURCES I have used to provide even somekind of RELIABLE ARTICLE of MARDAS peoples. And ones again this is not any new research work, only combining together the already existing written text. Cheers.88.115.115.177 (talk) 05:01, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The List of Mardas People with Higher University Degree Education 1860 -1917
Could somebody there in Saransk provide a complete list of those 100 - 120 Ersas, Mokshas, Shokshas, and Terjuhans of peasant backround during the days of Imperial Russia 1860 - 1917 who studied in Universities and who obtained the Higher University Level Titulär during those days. They formed the new backbone of the Mardas population upper class which appeared into the scene in these years 1860 - 1917 and worked hard to rise the people´s educational level in the way of creating newborn internal Mardas heritage cultural activities. It seems that their names were effectively washed out of the later created new history writing, directed by the Peoples Commissariat of Education in Moskova. These persons were in possibility to obtain also higher education in Foreign Universities abroad, in that education which was offered in Imperial Russia. Or shall I say in Ausländischer schools of higher education. Thanks.88.115.115.177 (talk) 05:36, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Korinfskiy (Varentsov) Mikhail Petrovich (1788 - 10(22).7.1851) architect, Erzya
 * Petrov Mikhail Nazarovich (1826-1887) Kharkov University Master of Historic Sciences, Moksha
 * Bazanov Ivan Aleksandrovich (27.1 (9.2) 1867 - 1943) Tomsk and Sofia Universities, Master of Juridical Sciences, Erzya
 * Bazanov Vsevolod Ivanovich (1897-1951) Master of Law Sciences. Sorbonne University, Erzya
 * Sovetkin Fedor Frolovich (1(13).6.1886 - 28.6.1967) Professor, Master of Pedagogical Sciences, Erzya
 * Skobelev E.V., linguist, Erzya
 * Naumkin M.I., linguist, Erzya
 * Varlamov S.Z., linguist, Erzya
 * Sadkov F.K - Theology Ph.D, Moksha
 * Anikin Stepan Vasilievich (1869-08.04.1919) - socialist revolutionary, writer, senator in Russian Duma, sentenced to shooting, Erzya
 * Vidyakin Dmitriy N. - Red Army comissar, hero of Civil War, Erzya
 * Chugurin Ivan Dmitrievich (15(27).8. 1883-8.2.1947) - VChK executive secretary, Erzya
 * Kotkov K.A. ,
 * Korsakov I.M.
 * Tsyganov N.F. linguist, Erzya
 * Potapkin S.G. linguist, Moksha
 * Imyarekov A.K. linguist, Moksha
 * Polumordvinov Grigoriy Afanasyevich (1897-1937), Mordvovian Communist Party executive secretary, Moksha
 * Serebrennikov Boris Aleksandrovich (21.2(6.3).1915-1953) linguist, Russian Academy of Sciences, Moksha
 * Ulyanov Grigoriy Konstantinovich [21.9(3.10). 1859-8.4 (21.4).1912], linguist, professor, Warsaw University chansellor, Russian Duma senator (1911-12), Erzya
 * Aladyin Alexey Fedorovich (1872-1927), senator, Don Army staff captain, White Guardist
 * Bazhanov Vladimir V. (15.6.1874-8.1955) senator, Erzya
 * Shishkanov Stepan Sergeyevich (1897-1962), Moksha
 * Martynov V.D., Moksha
 * Boriskin I.I., Moksha
 * Krivosheyev I.P., Erzya
 * Churin A.M.,
 * Abrosimov I.G.
 * Kulikov I.I.
 * Vechkanov S.
 * Grigoshin Y
 * Dunyashin A.
 * Kirillov P.
 * Lukyanov A.
 * Martynov A.
 * Moro Artur (1909 - 1989), poet, Erzya
 * Radaev Vasiliy Kuzmich (26.02.1901- 29.08.1989), writer, poet, Erzya
 * Raptanov Timofey Alekseevich (1906-36), Erzya
 * Gorbunov Ivan Maksimovich (1892-1970), Erzya
 * Yaushev Illarion Maksimovich (26. 2. 1902-31. 5. 1961), famous Opera bass singer, Erzya
 * Peterburgskiy Fedor Ivanovich (1890-1962) linguist, pedagogue, Moksha
 * Gavrilov N., linguist, Moksha

etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.122.16.15 (talk) 15:31, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Khazar religion influence in Mardasland
Before starting writing under this title I would like to know how much is known of the secret connection with Mardas people and the Kaballah with the teaching of Salomon ibn Gabriel, Moses ibn Erza, and Abrahim ibn Erza who might have died in Mardasland or Khazaristani in 1167. All three respected Cordoba Jews which seems to have also influenced the Mordvin Mythology or took some parts of ancient Mardas mythology derived of the Sumeri version of Kaballah.88.115.115.177 (talk) 19:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Erzya Oblast merge suggestion
I don't see any reasons for merging Erzya Oblasts the subdivisions of Russian Federation into an article about the people here. I mean, one is about geography, another one is about the people. Exactly like you don't merge Mordovia into Mordvins or the United states of America into Americans--Termer (talk) 15:59, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

PS. On the other hand I can see your point. I have no doubt that the people live there but it still would need to have some sources provided otherwise it remains a WP:OR'ish article.--Termer (talk) 17:18, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

back to sane version
ok, this article had been in useful shape before the addition of huge amounts of completely unreferenced material. I am moving the additions to a "workpage" for future reference: /workpage. dab (𒁳) 20:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

That's not cool, removing sourced facts and replacing these with unsourced stuff like you did with the beginning of the article including the infobox. Although everything that's not referenced later on, you can remove any time--Termer (talk) 20:16, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Sourced facts? They have to make sense in English first. And the "group of nations" nonsense is just wrong. Moreschi (talk) 20:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Plus, can any part of the "List of notable Mordvins" section actually be reliably sourced? If not, it should go too. Moreschi (talk) 21:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * So you're questioning the English skills of the Research Professor in Political Science from the School of Social Sciences of University of California  to whom the direct quotation "group of nations"  belongs to regarding the Mordvins? Why do you remove the source from the article?--Termer (talk) 21:05, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup, that's right. "Group of nations" in ordinary English means something like the European Union or the G8: that is, a group of nation states. Not a collection of sub-ethnic groups. This academic can have his unusual wording, just not in Wikipedia. Moreschi (talk) 21:17, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Please take a look what a nation means in English and how it differs from a nation state. --Termer (talk) 21:22, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know this. I'm not an idiot. My point is that 99 times out 100 when someone says "nation" they mean "nation state", and our average reader is going to be very confused to see nation used in this way. What is wrong with "people" or "ethnic group"? This is much more accurate and much less confusing. For once, could we put the needs of our readers first? Moreschi (talk) 21:31, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Later in the same paragraph the author describes the same peoples as "populations", so obviously "nation" is not a particularly important word for him. If we summarise the gist of his argument properly the problem disappears. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:47, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * RE:Moreschi Well, I'm just not getting it, why to treat average readers like idiots thinking that they might get very confused by finding out that the "people" and "ethnic groups" do consider themselves nations, and that's confirmed by Political scientists and many of them even belong to the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization? What happened to the readers should make up their own mind once we talk about "the needs of our readers"? --Termer (talk) 21:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * PS. I'm backing off from here for now, hope you can sort it out.--Termer (talk) 21:56, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually there is no subdivision "Erzya oblast" in Russian Federation. There is no even historical region with this name. Mordvins are not a group of sub-groups no matter what any scholars deem. There are Erzyas with ethnography group Shoksha, Mokshas with ethnography group Qaratay and russified Erzyas and Mokshas which are usually referred to as Mordvins after Mordovia region.--Numulunj pilgae 09:17, 8 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Numulunj pilgae (talk • contribs)

Mokshas
Dear Moreschi, you just edited article Mordvins removing Mokshas link to non-existing page. If you don't know I would like to draw your attention to the fact that Qaratays call themselves Muqşı. So-called Teryukhans are named so by some scholars after Teryushevskaya volost of Nizhniy Novgorod guberniya (old administrative subdivision in Russian Empire). All those people are russified Erzyans who speak Russian and mostly identify themselves as Russians. So-called Tengushev Mordvins are Erzyans who speak Erzyan dialect with Mokshan substratum and in fact they are ethnography group of Erzyans usually referred to as Shokshas. That was Erzyans who historically referred to as Mordvins and Mokshas usually were mentioned separately as "Mokshas". There is no evidence Mokshas and Erzyas were an ethnic unity in prehistory. Volga Finns' homeland was not Samara bend or Volga but Oka river basin. Erzyas, Maris, Meryas, Meshcheras, Muromas and Mokshas differentiated about 1200 BC The Mokshas are known in local languages as: When establishing Mordvinian autonomous okrug in 1932 first proposed name Erzya-Moksha Okrug was changed to Mordvin okrug. Since that period Russians stopped differentiation Erzyas and Mokshas calling all of them Mordvins. Pls show the excellent judgement and help me to restore article about my people.Numulunj pilgae —Preceding undated comment was added at 07:37, 8 October 2008 (UTC).
 * Мокшет or Мокшень ломатть ("Moksha people") in Moksha
 * Muqşılar in Tatar
 * Мăкшăсем in Chuvash
 * Мокшот in Erzya
 * Мокшане or Мордва-Мокша in Russian

the "delicate issue"

 * To re-affirm what Dieter says above: going through my print Britannica from 1986, I see that Eryza and Moksha are clearly classified as dialects of the Mordvin language, which obviously was unified at some point. The "there are no Mordvins" meme isn't going to get much credence in the light of that. Moreschi (talk) 15:16, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Moreschi, you keep referring to the languages. Please note that the languages are called Eryza and Moksha, the people are most often spelled Erzians and Mokshans--Termer (talk) 15:20, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

PS. Nobody has said "there are no Mordvins". the common Russian name for Finnic peoples in general has been Chudes. Nobody says that the Chudes do not exist, just that the Chudes are divided into Estonians, Finns and other Finnic peoples. The same applies to "Mordvins". It's a generic name for 2 indigenous nations living in Russian federation.--Termer (talk) 15:32, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * On which note Moksha language and Erzya language should probably be merged into Mordvin language - I don't think it's typical to have two different articles on two dialects of the same language. Moreschi (talk) 15:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Your suggestion would have some basis only if there was a consensus among linguists that would back up the opinion: "two dialects of the same language"--Termer (talk) 15:34, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Britannica is usually fairly good for this sort of thing. Do you have any references to the contrary? Moreschi (talk) 15:36, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * "Dialect" and "language" are not exact terms. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * RE Moreschi :Britannica is usually most outdated source. The reason Britannica has been lagging on the subject, especially the 1986 edition, all facts and theories etc. on such subjects like the indigenous peoples of Russia were filtered by the Soviet Union at the time. Western scholars practically had no access to the subject matter. The most comprehensive study I can think of from recent times is already mentioned The Finno-Ugric Republics and the Russian State. and there are tons of others available since the collapse of USSR  published in English by western and Russian scholars. if necessary I'll get all the refs that are needed.--Termer (talk) 15:45, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * With reference to the list of sources: there are many titles that I cannot understand. A translation would be useful, and even more useful still would be to identify the status of the author and publisher. Ideally we are looking for books by academic historians published by academic presses. Not for every detail, of course. A census is the right source for a population figure, for example, and a linguistics expert for the language that an ethnic group speaks. One thing I did notice though is that you would like to use chronicles. This is potentially highly problematic as they are primary sources. Even collections and commentaries on chronicles may not be good sources. Also, you do not need this number of sources to start an article. Two or three good books is enough, five is plenty. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Itsmejudith Was the last one addressed to me? I have not added any other sources to the article other than An Ethnic History of Russia, An Ethnohistorical Dictionary of the Russian and Soviet Empires and The Finno-Ugric Republics and the Russian State, the lastone has been removed since yesterday. I have no idea who would like to use chronicles?--Termer (talk) 15:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it's a comment on the list that Numulunj pilgae helpfully added above, in this section. Itsmejudith (talk)

Right. And looking at the preview of Taagepera, p. 177 essentially backs up what I'm saying. Taagepera cites others ("with no axe to grind", in his phrase) who consider the two dialects and while he offers no opinion, attributes any non-intelligibility between the two to the fact that apparently they don't get to talk to each other very much. Moreschi (talk) 15:53, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * RE:Moreschi

so until a single literary language is not created the languages remain to be separate literary languages even though somewhat closer than Finnish and Estonian according to Salo (1993). How is that essentially backing up what you're saying?--Termer (talk) 16:10, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Taagepera, p. 176 The Mordvin language separated from Permic..about 2700 years ago and differentiated into Erzian and Mokshan 1,500 to 1000 years ago.
 * Taagepera, p. 177 - A local academic Butylow feels ...creation of a single literary language is ...the only way to save the...
 * Because he quotes, with no disapproval and explicitly noting that these are not people with axes to grind, Salo as saying that they are closer than Finnish and Estonian, Alhoniemi that as saying that it is difficult to consider them two separate languages, and Butylow that all the differences are minor. And literary language is not what will be in the mind of linguists, I think, who usually care about what people actually speak and whether what is spoken is mutually intelligible.


 * In any case, this is irrelevant. The question is this: is there sufficient reference material out there discussing each "language" on its own" to justify two separate articles? Because from what I'm seeing, all the useful literature discusses them together. Therefore we do not need more than 1 article. Moreschi (talk) 16:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It's irrelevant that we're dealing with 2 separate literary languages? Well, good luck with getting the articles merged into one. I don't understand the motivations behind it and in case anybody welcomes my help in the future to sort the thing out, you can reach me at ma talk page. Bye!--Termer (talk) 17:04, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, my! First of all ä /æ/ and ə /ə/ never been used in Erzya language. They were used in Mokshan. Erzyan was much prone to russification and almost doesn't differ from Russian in phonology. Local academic Butylov. Oh, boy! I know this guy very well. His goal was to make career on reanimation old dead project of merging Erzya and Moksha into one Mordvin literary language. First project died in 1970 when Mordovian Research Institute of Languge, Culture and Economy failed to prepare Explanatory Dictionary of Mordvinian languages due to contradiction of collected data after they wasted 20 years for efforts to compiling. Finally two separate Erzya and Moksha dictionaries were published only in 1998. Nikolay Butylov published some works on Mokshan etymology with total mess of borrowings tracing back. To cut a long story short in his work on Turkic borrowings for instance major part of Mokshan borrowings turned to Turkic, even Indo-Iranian ones. That's his way. He is really mad. You can negotiate even merging of Erzya and Tatar with him. Why not? Depends on the profit. I do not know why you are discussing dialects of "Mordvin language" again. Thanks God now it needs not proving Mokshan and Erzyan are separate languages having their language codes and literary standards. They may not be merged and it has been already confirmed, sealed, documented. It's a mistery where Latham could find a person confirmed "Mordvin" was a self-designation for Mokshas and Erzyas. William de Rubruquis described Mokshas (Moxel) and Erzyas (Merdinis) as separate peoples in 1253 but after he departed you deem they became one ethnic unity for a while? Roger Bacon writes in Opus Majus of Moxel and Merduim. The same confirms Johann Gottlieb Georgi in 18 c. when describing difference between Mokshans and Mordvins (Erzyas). Why we cannot split "Mordvins" to Mokshas and Mordvins (Erzyas) or maybe to Moksha-Mordvins and Erzya Mordvins? --Khazar II (talk) 18:31, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

right. I would just like to remind everyone that "dialect" vs. "language" isn't a linguistically meaningful distinction. We've had lots of disputes along these lines, and I would like to not have to re-iterate all the common misconceptions. Moksha and Erzian are two "languages" or "dialects" of Mordvinic, which term we will end up preferring is entirely a matter of citing WP:RS, not "truth". I understand Moksha and Erzya are much like Dutch and Low German in terms of proximity. Whether The Dutch and the Saxons are speaking "dialects" or different "languages", and whether they are one or several "nations" is entirely a question of terminology (common usage of). Talking about "Mordvins" is a bit like talking about "Continental West Germanic speakers" -- they form a dialect continuum and they have common roots, but whether they are to be addressed as a single "nation" is entirely down to group consensus.

I would also ask Termer, Khazar and Numulunj to recognize that Moreschi, Judith and me are here to help the article. Clearly, it needs help. Left to itself, it turned into a weird and unreadable account of gulags and early railroad adventures. Ok? We mean well. We want to keep the article readable and accurate. It's going to take some time to sort things out, but it's going to be worth it. Thanks, --dab (𒁳) 18:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * RE:dab I have no idea why did you group editors together like that. the first edit ever I've made on this article was yesterday . After noticing the mess it was my first attempt to start cleaning up the article. I never had any problems with Judiths additions since it was late night and in order to avoid Copyvio I had twisted around the sentences perhaps too much. The only problem I had with your edits was that you removed one of the sources from the article. The situation I think is entirely different with Moreschi who I feel has been hostile and unwelcoming with her comments since the beginning. And I know nothing about Khazar and Numulunj and what and how they have edited the article.--Termer (talk) 18:59, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * sure, and I am fully prepared to treat you as an individual. The point is that Moreschi and Judith have reacted to my note at WP:FTN. I assure you Moreschi has not been "hostile", and his criticism is fully to the point. It is true that Taagepera (1999) is a valuable source, and I have added it back as soon as you drew my attention to it, so I think we can drop this particular issue now. --dab (𒁳) 19:05, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem dab!--Termer (talk) 19:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Termer, first of all thank you for your concern re the subject. I have never edited this article except for "reference needed" tags maybe, cause I have reasons to be completely discontented both with the name and the content. I am trying to prove Mokshas are not Mordvins, Moksherziat or Erzyamokshot or whatever else but Mokshas. Not because of some sort of diasporic online fad but because once started article Mokshet in Moksha Wikipedia I failed to link it to corresponding article in English Wikipedia. I was told no such ethnic group. OK and what ethnic group do I belong then? %-0 You see there is a contradiction in terms --Khazar II (talk) 19:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

The problem is simple really: according to and also according to Taagepera: The name Mordva is not used by the "Mordvins" themselves, you guys just don't have such a concept for self identification. Just that, according to the source: the official statistics during Soviet era did not offer separate counts for Erza and Moksha and that's where it all starts from.

There is nothing new to it. The same applies for Setos and by now almost extinct Livonians who were considered either Estonians or Latvians respectively according to the Soviet statistics. Not to mention that all Finnic peoples were called Chudes few centuries ago.

But not to worry, there are enough sources available that clearly define the Erza or Erzyans or Erzians and Mokshans. So there is a lot of work to be done to get it all sorted out on WP according to published sources.--Termer (talk) 21:47, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

PS. also, like Taagepera has pointed out: most often Erzians consider the Mokshans being the Mordvins and vice versa, Mokshans think that it must be the Erzians who are called Mordvins.--Termer (talk) 21:47, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Absolutely agree, Termer! BTW separate counts were made in 1926: Mordovian autonomy 237,000 Mokshans and 297,000 Erzyans, total in Volga region Mokshans 391,000, Erzyans - 795,000, in Barnaul okrug 1,400 Mokshans and 1,400 Erzyans and 5,200 russified Mokshans and Erzyans were enrolled under ethnonym "Mordva". As to Taagpera "...Erzians consider the Mokshans being the Mordvins..." there are no sources where Erzyans were referred to as Erzyans and Mokshans as Mordva, but plenty of sources where Erzyans were referred to as Mordvins and Mokshas as a separate people. Do you think chronicles and medieval sources like Opus Majus are not applicable? --Numulunj pilgae Np(talk) 06:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * chronicles and medieval sources are always open to interpretations and are considered primary sources for WP purposes. All articles on WP need to be based on secondary sources, see: WP:Sources The reason you can't base any claims directly on chronicles would be that it would be your interpretation of the text and therefor considered WP:OR. So, anything that comes from chronicles needs to be cited by a scholar and published in a book that talks and interprets any given chronicle. In case there is more than one scholar who says so, it might be close to a scientific consensus and could be considered to be a fact. In case any scholars disagrees in any published sources, it's an opinion that can be listed on WP as one of many views on the subject according to WP:NPOV. hope that it helps!--Termer (talk) 15:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you. All noted. Will try to to collect more sources with scholars' comments. --Numulunj pilgae 16:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is a third source confirming the case Dictionary of Languages By Andrew Dalby: The Erza and Moksha are viewed by themselves as quite distinct, with independent traditions and no history of close relations - or even of intermarriage.--Termer (talk) 01:35, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, here is a book that nails it. Other than some praisings for the Soviet regime, the source is the most comprehensive-historic-overview-looking-at-every-aspect of it including the etymologies covering what is going on exactly with this Mordvins versus Moksha-Erzia controversy so to speak. The Mordva, Ethnonym or Ethnopholism? by Nikolai Mokshin in Culture Incarnate: Native Anthropology from Russia ISBN 9781563245350 . Starting from the fact that Mordvins is considered by common views as an ethnic slur, a nickname given to the people deriving from morda having a meaning of mug or snout. Including the dispute between the groups themselves who exactly are the Mordvins, either the Erzians or Mokshans. Also, in the history of Mordva ASSR an alternative naming Moksha-Erzia was proposed that was turned down by the officials. Lot of interesting facts and its going to take some time to work it into the article. But I think it would be a must read to anybody who'd like to get him/herself up to speed with the issues.--Termer (talk) 03:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, exactly. Intermarriages were strictly forbidden. Me myself had such experience when a had a girl-friend ethnic Erzyan (as you know me I'm Mokshan). It was a pretty hostile air when I first visited her house. No prob if I were Russian or any but not Mokshan. I mean I met this several times, this survival of paganism is still strong even among educated urban families. Moksherziat or erzyamokshot (Erzyans just change ethnonyms places when using it in Erzyan texts) a funny term like Czechoslovakians or Khantymansians Mokshans and Erzyans were forced to use when translating from Russian as in Russian text particle Moksha- or Erzya- may be missing. It was used only in such cases. --Numulunj pilgae Np(talk) 07:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

excellent source, Termer. It becomes clear, as I had surmised, that this "dispute" or "controversy" is a thing of the 1990s, emerging after the collapse of the Soviet Union. I had never heard the term "ethnopholism", but I'm happy to take it up. In the larger scheme, this is a recent development, probably best discussed under "post-Soviet era". The article's conclusion is that "the ethnic structure of the Mordva people at present reveals two subethnoses -- Erzia and Moksha -- and two ethnographic groups -- so-called Shoksha and Karatai" (p. 43). --dab (𒁳) 13:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi dab there is one thing I'd like to be very clear about. Anything emerging after the collapse of the Soviet Union doesn't necessarily mean it's just a thing of the 1990s. It can mean that thanks to the openness policies perestroika and glasnost the people were able to address the questions in the 90s since before they simply didn't have the freedom of expression. The facts are clear according to the source, the questions were arisen already during the 1930s when the autonomous republic was created. Also, like already pointed out: Livonians and Setos only emerged again after the collapse of the Soviet Union but it doesn't mean it was just a thing of the 1990s. I mean, people don't change their identities overnight and when given a chance, they address it either to the Soviet authorities during the 90's or in our case, on WP talk page that's dealing with the subject.


 * The bottom line, are separate entries about the Erza and Moksha people justified on WP? I'd say yes, since we have articles about much smaller ethnic groups, I don't see any problems having separate articles about the peoples on WP as additions to this generic name they clearly don't identify with by themselves.--Termer (talk) 15:08, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Prof. Mokshin was one of those who voted for merging Erzyan and Mokshan languages. So this is his credo, his view. There is no data proving his POV on this mysterious unfinished consolidation of Erzya and Moksha into a single nationality in Middle Ages. When citing passages from chronicles mentioning "Mordva" he is making a total mess as Mokshans were a Vladimir knyaz allies but Erzyas were allied with Bolghars in 13 c. So when citing Yaroslav fought Mordva in the month of March 1103 do we mean Moksha or Erzya? No comments provided. Mordva led by Purgas were of course Erzyans, 'cause Purgas was Erzyan. Mokshan king Puresh and Purgas were at war till Mongol invasion. Well, if we choose this way Mokshas are soon to become "Those-Mordvins-who-referred-to-as-Moxel-in-13c-who-were-allies-of-Polovtsians-etc. It's a total nonsense. I am not talking of nationalism or ethnopolims issues I'm just trying to draw your attention to a mess we are making of all this data when trying to omit Moksha and Erzya and using Mordva instead. Can we discuss another POV or not? I would regard those old Soviet scholars who encouraged for creation "Mordvin language" and who failed to create it at the end as not very reliable. --Numulunj pilgae 14:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Numulunj pilgae (talk • contribs)
 * whatever. We now have sufficient scholarly sources to base a coherent account on. If you disagree with any view cited, you are free to present another source of comparable notability to balance things. As always: no source, no debate. dab (𒁳) 15:17, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, then let's take opinion of Valeriy Yurchenkov, director of The Research Institute of Humanities by the Government of the Republic of Mordovia on the subject. He states: "Mari, Merya, Moksha, Muroma and Erzya tribes formed in 1000 BC in Volga and Oka interfluve" . And his work Yurchenkov V.A. Mordvoskiy narod: vekhi istorii. Saransk, 2007 - ISBN 978-5-900029-37-5(V.1). --Numulunj pilgae 17:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Splitting this into Erzya and Moksha sub-articles at the moment would just result in stub articles duplicating each other. The way forward is to build this article, until we get substantial sections dedicated to Erzyas and Mokshas individually, at which point it will be perfectly reasonable to split off sub-articles. --dab (𒁳) 15:17, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a plan!--Termer (talk) 15:18, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup, and a good one. Summary style in action. I have no issue with that: eventually, I'm sure we'll build enough here that separate articles on the peoples will be perfectly justified. I remain sceptical that this can be done with the language articles, which IMO should be merged - it's possible that enough good source material might emerge to later de-merge them, but right now there's I don't think there's a case for keeping them apart. Moreschi (talk) 18:39, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * regarding the language articles, I'm sorry but I don't think you're on a right track with this one. Lets say, according to Taagepera, there was a note that the languages are somewhat closer than Estonian and Finnish. I don't know how much it tells anybody but here are the facts. Out of Estonian language there are South Estonian language that by itself includes 2 more Võro language and Seto language that are more different from the official literary Estonian than lets say for example Norwegian from Danish. I can bet you, if you don't speak the languages, putting the modern Norwegian text next to Danish you cant tell the difference. So I'd say unless dab can come up with very valid reasons (that would win me over) why the Mordvin languages should be merged, I think we should drop this suggestion.--Termer (talk) 19:14, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * My main reason is that I don't think there are enough sources treating the two separately to write two decent articles. There's enough to write one, easily so, but I don't think two. Moreschi (talk) 20:02, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The lack of sources usually means from my experience that people who created an article have taken this as "common knowledge". And it makes sense, people create articles usually on subjects that they know of. At the same time it's always good to point out that more sources are needed by the editors who are not familiar with the subjects that much perhaps, and the language articles could use major work in that respect for sure. It takes time to build an Encyclopedia...--Termer (talk) 20:10, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course, but this is what I mean. I'm not explaining myself well enough here. I have no doubt we can find lots of source that treat Eryza and Moksha as pretty different. What I'm really asking is whether we can find sources that analyse one independent of the other: that is, have analyses of Eryza that do not involve Moksha in any way and treat it independently (and vice versa). To use a rather crude parellel, this is IMO a case of Curt Hawkins and Zack Ryder, two people whom all the sources treat together - therefore we just have one article on them. My concern is not with the languages, it's whether one article would be a better option, from a stylistic point of view, that two. Moreschi (talk) 20:16, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * from a stylistic point of view I think my note below explains it better. Currently the languages on WP are organized according to ISO codes, that is the way you can navigate between the languages- trees and branches. The system doesn't support adding several languages codes into one infobox.--Termer (talk) 20:27, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

PS. As a final note about it I hope. How would you go about merging the international ISO 639-2 codes myv for Erzya and mdf for Moksha respectivelly? + a nonexistent international code for "Mordvin language" would need to be created? --Termer (talk) 19:36, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * this isn't really a problem, there are lots of minor language families without an ISO code. --dab (𒁳) 13:48, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Not a problem in what sense? Surely there are lots of minor language families without ISO codes, has anybody suggested to merge those? If not why would articles about languages that have ISO codes should be merged if that was what you meant?--Termer (talk) 13:56, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

PS. --Termer (talk) 15:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Which means nothing. Once, there was a Siberian language Wikipedia. Moreschi (talk) 21:38, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

One note
I know this will be tricky, but per Verifiability foreign-language sources should be avoided. There should be enough available in English to build a coherent article, if we use the sources with skill. In this particular case, quite apart from the fact that I can't read them (and nor can the majority of our readers), it sounds like a lot of "native" scholarship is going to be caught up in the 90s controversies regarding this area. Moreschi (talk) 18:44, 9 October 2008 (UTC)


 * there are more than enough sources published in English covering the subject in utmost detail put together here by now. It would take some time and effort from several editors to get it into the article. So not to worry, there is no need to use any foreign-language sources at this time.--Termer (talk) 18:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)
 * we have enough English language sources to build a general outline. What we should not accept are references to non-English  language sources that appear to contradict our main outline based on English language sources or otherwise raising WP:REDFLAGs. For specific details, it will still be permissible to cite Russian language sources, no problem. --dab (𒁳) 13:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello Mokshan guys, do you have a pic to show the world how different or similar you are compared to the Erzas? Thanks!--Termer (talk) 22:05, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Termer, I guess I found something interesting. Will revert soon. --Khazar II (talk) 17:49, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi dab, just wanted to check on why would you call the section that deals with the etymologies of the names -Names. What's wrong with calling it Etymology or since it deals with multiple names and how they developed ...Etymologies?--Termer (talk) 15:11, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to rename the names to Etymologies, since the section Ethnography that deals with different ethnic sub-ethnicities also contains names, it would be much clearer what exactly are the separate sections about.--Termer (talk) 15:17, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Termer, I don't want to attack you, but all of your contributions need cleanup in the most basic respects of English grammar, terminology, or because you failed to understand the source you are quoting. You obviously mean well, and your contributions are welcome and useful, but you'll need to accept modifications to them. dab (𒁳) 09:49, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


 * No problem dab you as a professional journalist should know that your superior language skills (that you don't hesitate to point out once and a while in discussions and edit summaries) are most appreciated. Since my education is related to visual communication rather than verbal, therefore I never am going to and never intended to match your language skills.

So the bottom line the Erza and Moksha are nothing like the Gaeltacht and Gàidhealtachd who seem clearly identify themselves as Irish-Gaelic-speaking ethnic groups or sub-ethnicities or etc. You're not seriously suggesting that you're right by calling the Erzya and Moksha "sub-groups" backed up by just one source instead of lets say calling them ethnic groups that in no way is contradicting what the sources say?--Termer (talk) 15:07, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It doesn't mean that I'm going to always agree with your interpretations of sources and in fact it's you who often have failed to understand what is going on exactly. The bottom line you're still missing is that the Erzya and Moksha don't have the concept of Moksherians or Mordvins in their language. It's an outernal term used also by some insiders in order to create a some kind of alternative feel of national unity out of the ethnic groups. Taagepera is pretty clear about it. It's also repeated in a number of sources including this one for ex. The only person to say ‘Mon Mordvin’ is Prof. N. Mokshin @ the Finno-Ugric Peoples Information Center!
 * On History section that I've rewritten from scratch I appreciate your copy editing some of the text.. What I miss though, how do you justify removing the fact by Taagepera saying it has been estimated that the ancestors of the peoples have lived in the region for up to 8000 years ago? That corresponds to the 1911 EB Their settlement in the basin of the Volga is of high antiquity??


 * PS. Also, I'm not getting it why calling the guys indigenous peoples or indigenous inhabitants gets rejected and removed all the time? Is it my ignorance who takes it as "common knowledege"? if so there are enogh published sources that do call them so:


 * The Modern Encyclopedia of Russian and Soviet History MORDVINS. The indigenous inhabitants of the Mordvin
 * Placenames of the World: Origins and Meanings of the Names indigenous Finno-Ugric Mordvin people
 * The time of troubles: Tsar Vasily Shuisky and the Interregnum Mordvins are people of Finnic stock, presently the indigenous inhabitants of
 * Encyclopedia of Russian History by James R. Millar (2004) Page 961 The Mordvins are an ancient people indigenous to the area between the Volga, Oka, and Sura rivers
 * Soviet Studies in History - Page 65 by International Arts and Sciences Press (1974) Other indigenous peoples of the Volga country — Mordvins

Please let me know if more sources are needed--Termer (talk) 17:44, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Sub-ethnicity
Dear all, cannot find term sub-ethnicity in dictionaries or EB. Can anyone give me a hint where it can be found? Truly speaking I believed it was some Soviet scholar who invented this when describing ethnic groups in Russia, you know: titular nation, minority, savages. Correct me if I'm wrong. Would like to understand the term correctly. --Khazar II (talk) 17:49, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Example of sub-ethnicity: the series European, British, English, where the British are a sub-ethnicity of European and English are sub-ethnicity of British. Whether we are savages I will let others decide. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the examples have no relevance since nobody is calling the British a "sub-ethnicity" of Europeans or the English a "sub-ethnicity" of British, and this is including the articles on WP and according to reality out there in the real world. --Termer (talk) 18:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * PS. What I'm not getting though is how come the following in The British people article is not confusing an "average reader" ...regarded by some as a single nation,[23] and by others as a collection of separate nations - English, Scots, Welsh. How come that the similar situation - the Erzya and Moksha are condisderd to be part of a group on nations Mordvins -might be confusing and not make sense in English at the time when nations such as English, Scots, Welsh make up a collection of nations makes perfect sense?--Termer (talk) 19:00, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

" of :Thank you, Judith. As far as I understand the term sub-ethnicity is a synonim to ethnic group, doesn't it? Dear DBachmann, please comment on the following point. Historically Mokshans (not Erzyans) are believed to be a part of long living alliance with Alans, the alliance name is known as Burtas. Alanian borrowings in Mokshan, Finnic borrowings in Ossetian language are easily traceable. This is Hudud al-'Alam on Burtass with comments. Please look it through. Would like to see your comments on this. Thank you. --Khazar II (talk) 21:05, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I still don't see clear definition of the term "sub-ethnicity" cited and if everybody agrees with Judith let's continue on English people page making appropriate edits. Meantime I don't see the term "sub-ethnicity" there and I guess the article must be amended accordingly.--Khazar II (talk) 21:14, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I do not understand what are you talking about since the idea itself of your discussion is a nothing but a misunderstanding. How can we discuss existing of sub-ethnicities Moksha and Erzya not having the main ethnicity Mordvins. Here is definition of the word ethnicity from the Encyclopedia Britannica.

Please explain what Mordvins can we talk about if there are no Mordvin language, no language code, no Mordvin music, no Mordvin literature, no Mordvin naming, etc unless of course we do not meet sources where Erzyans, Erzyan language are referred to as Mordvins, Mordvin language. In fact I believe we cannot refer to Erzyan language as to Mordvin language since we do not have even language code for Mordvin. So, can anybody explain what are we talkin about? We must split the article because we are misleading the readers. A clear exlanation of misunderstanding with the term Mordvin though must be provided. Don't you see many sources cited in the article and discussed are mutually excluding?--Numulunj pilgae 08:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a political question how exactly Erzya and Moksha people get defined. According to Taagepera Mordvins are part of a group of nations that share a... The interpretation in the article was rejected due to concern that an 'average reader' may confuse a nation with a nation state. James Minahan  Denis Sinor  define Erzya and Moksha and  people as "groups" that on WP would translate to Ethnic group's perhaps.

Also this might help: The 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica (in public domain, it can be used without Copyvio concerns) article on Mordvins is following.

google shows that Wikipedia uses "sub-ethnicity", "ethnic sub-group" and "sub-ethnic group", all more or less synonymous I suppose, "sub-ethnic group" clearly being the most common. I suppose the relation of Moksha and Erzya could be compared to that of Gaedheal vs. Gaidheal. Nothing speaks against treating them in a dedicated article each, exccept that at present we have no material to put in such articles. --dab (𒁳) 07:54, 13 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Dbachmann, I do have the material to put in such articles. Judith advised to give a list of sources I would like to use for the article "Mokshas". OK if I'm not allowed to start articles in "free" Wikipedia without an admin's approval I cited here above the list and asked you kindly look at them. You didn't say a word about the list. All sources are not acceptable you suppose? It is you who supposes Moksha and Erzya could be compared as Gaedheal and Gaidheal but maybe we should better rely upon famous scholars' suppositions? Gaeltacht and Gàidhealtachd are separate articles. Article "Mordvins" as it is now gives information mostly on Erzyans. You are sure to be at a deadlock soon if you plan to continue section History, Mythology or any, or else the article information will be full of discrepancies and untied ends. Now it seems to me you are not willing to discuss the subject at all. It was you who merged Tyushtya to Erzyan so-called epic Mastorava.--Numulunj pilgae 14:32, 13 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Numulunj pilgae (talk • contribs)


 * Not to worry Numulunj pilgae, WP doesn't have a deadline and once we get enough facts together that would dictate creating separate articles, it's going to happen. Please add any sources on the subject to References section following the forms at Cite book and Cite web, so that these could be used as sources fort updating and expanding the article. --Termer (talk) 16:08, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * you did not read what I said, Np. I cited Gaeltacht and Gàidhealtachd in order to point out that there can be separate Mokshan and Erzyan articles, if just somebody sits down and writes them, there is no need to parrot the point back at me. If you could please begin to contribute up-to-standard and encyclopedically, we could finally stop baby-sitting this article and everybody would thank you. I first step would be your beginning to sign your post as a show of minimal compliance with Wikipedia procedure. The "Tyushtya" article as you created it was full of unreferenced claims and unhistorical dating ("4th century", while we now find EB 1911 dated Tyushtya to 16th century), and a fantasy drawing thrown in for good measure. If you can show you can do better, now would certainly be a good time. --dab (𒁳) 17:14, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Just found it remarkable that John Abercromby in his Pre- and Proto-historic Finns (1898, republished in 2005) starts the story with

Today Western Finns translate to Baltic Finns and the eastern to Volga Finns. What is interesting though that baron Abercromby didn't go for the generic name Mordvins but started the list of Volga Finns with the names Erza and Moksa Mordvins instead. --Termer (talk) 03:06, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

PS. I still reject the use of "sub-ethnicities" in the article according to WP:UNDUE as an opinion of single scholar -Mokshin, and expect the questions above at One note section to be addressed by you, dab, either at the talk page or in the article. The Erzya and Moksha Mordvins should be called either indigenous peoples of Russia or Ethnic groups in Russia according to the majority of sources provided in the article and above. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 03:21, 14 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Here is one more source that makes it pretty clear I think Papers on Finno-Ugric Peoples and other Minority Issues. Ethnic origins of Finno-Ugric nations and modern Finno-Ugric nationalism in the Russian Federation by Konstantin Zamyatin

--Termer (talk) 05:54, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Tyushtya mentioned earlier, according to Heno Sarv who cites Mokshin the meaning of the word derives from The chief of a tribe (tyoksh `highest, top', atya `old man') a leader elected by the elders of kin groups.--Termer (talk) 06:14, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

A way forward
Although I'm sorry to see that none of the questions brought up that would define Mordvins in the article have been addressed, that would justify the recent changes for ex by Dab, calling the peoples "sub-groups" or "sub-ethnicities" according to Mokshin instead of lets say just ethnic groups. Despite the suggestions above that the English people could be called a "sub-ethnicity" of the British people at the time when the article on WP is clear about it the British is a collection of separate nations - English, Scots, Welsh that corresponds to Taagepera: Mordvins are a group of nations...who recognize their kinship. Versus another end of the viewpoints on the issues according to Mariz Kemal : the only person to call himself a Mordvin is the 'sub-ethnicity theorist' Nikolai F. Mokshin by himself. etc.

Now it should be pretty clear that the way the facts have been interpreted currently in the article is far from WP:NPOV because the text favors a minority view that claims Mordvins to be a single ethnic group consisting of 2+3 sub-groups or "sub-ethnicities". In the other end there is a viewpoint that the Erzya and Moksha are completely separate ethnic groups or even nations that have nothing much to do with each other, other than recognizing their kinship.

To get some middle ground here I'd suggest a following solution that would define the subject according to John Abercromby and a number of other sources cited above:

I think such a solution by defining the Mordvins as Erzya Mordvins and Moksha Mordvins (without renaming the article) would be satisfactory for every side of the dispute and hopefully would put a solid and a stable base to the article. Please comment! Thanks!--Termer (talk) 16:25, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Our sources clearly treat "the Mordvins" as an ethnic group, and the Erzya and Moksha Morvins as ethnic sub-groups. I don't see your problem, and I don't see in what way we need or want to "move forward" in this respect, nor do I see how your proposal represents "middle ground" between anything. I am not sure what questions of yours remain unanswered, but understand that Wikipedia isn't built by the Socratic method. The burden is on you to present reputable ethnographic sources (not random online opinion pieces) that support whatever it is you are trying to suggest. This is a non-issue. It isn't even a content dispute, since it is a mere question of terminology and as such falls under WP:NAME. Better invest our efforts in actually improving the article. --dab (𒁳) 16:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)


 * So you're saying that there is no evidence that the Erzia and Moksha are considered separate people by themselves and it's not supported by any of the sources? Calling the source at the Finno-Ugric information Center a random opinion pieces is your opinion I don't share. Other than that if it's a none issue in your opinion I must have misunderstood your edits and I'll just go forward and redefine the subject according to my suggestion.--Termer (talk) 16:56, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

PS. RE: please stop mixing up references and WP:EL. Never intended to, please stop mixing up WP:citing sources and cite web with WP:EL by moving the refs down to external links section that are in fact necessary reputable ethnographic sources that you have been asking for and the in-text citations are based on. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 17:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

PPS. to avoid further confusion with this, perhaps we should get rid of a separate References section all together and have a generic References and Notes section instead? I don't think having separate refs and notes section works really and the mixing up references and WP:EL just illustrates this well enough.--Termer (talk) 17:50, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Dear Dab, since you are "baby-sitting" this article pls kindly revert with your comments on the subject when new refs are cited. I had already suggested splitting this article to Moksha-Mordvins and Erzya-Mordvins 08.10 but you just didn't comment. Now Termer came to the same conclusion. Numulunj pilgae is not so mad as you think when saying you gonna be at dead end soon extending this article. Mokshan and Erzyan languages are state ones in Mordovia and actually I don't see the reason to prove to you personally Moksha and Erzya are separate ethnic groups in spite of that it is clear for everybody in Mordovia. I cited a source on Moksha-Alanian relations trying to draw your attention to difference of Mokshan and Erzyan heritage. No reply. Termer is absolutely right re this dim term sub-ethnicity. Let's discuss definiton English people. May be we'd better call them a sub-ethnicity after Judith, eh? Please comment why you deem Termer's sources are non-sufficient? --Khazar II (talk) 21:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi Khazar II: just wanted to point out how Taagepera ends his chapter on Erzya and Moksha Mordvins: Either Erzyas and Mokshas hang together or they will be hanged together. I understand there is certain controversy going on between Mokshan and Erzyan activists that includes some racial issues at the time when some like Mokshin would like to create a new united ethnos based on the common term Mordvins that has been used by outsiders. I think there is no need to bring those tensions to WP.

Even though dab clearly is not familiar with the subject and has not provided a single source to the article thus far, his skepticism and copy-editing the article have been most useful that have made the article only better. And once again, in time when we have enough material together in the article, separate entries can emerge. I considered the wording 'Erzya and Moksha Mordvins' as a compromise for now, even though dab clearly missed the point of it. But since he has not questioned it either, there is no reason to "brake through an open door" at this time I think!--Termer (talk) 21:52, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

PS. Since Nikolai Mokshin has clearly manipulated the facts in the case above his second line becomes highly dubious as well Mokshin states that the term (Mordvins) has been used by the people as an internal self-defining term to constitute their common origin. Not to mention that it's questoned by another sources, the Finno-Ugric information center... I'm not going to remove it  yet, just tag as dubious fr now. so please comment--Termer (talk) 06:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Just a note that I had to replace following claim that had slipped into the article: according to Nikolai Mokshin In Russian sources the people appear only under the name Mordva excclusively (without reference to subdivisions) up the the 17th century because the claim was in conflict with at least 2 other sources cited by 4 different scholars that say: (after the Mongol invasion of Rus) the name Mordvin rarely gets mentioned in Russian annals and is only quoted after the Primary Chronicle up to the the 15th-17th century.--Termer (talk) 06:11, 16 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Why we need sources confirming Mordva is not a self-designation since we do not have sources proving it is. How very strange we cannot easily find confirmation of this in most known encyclopeadic resources. Clear information on what self-designation is used among sub-ethnicity English or among Armenians or Tatars can be easily found. The mistake is in the mere subject of the discussion. No source can confirm Mordva is a self designation except Latham who has hardly seen an ethnic Mokshan or Erzyan at all, or mad soviet prof. Mokshin. There are no such sources. Since Mokshas and Erzyas are not extincts why we need old and soviet researches, we may easily cite modern sources, may we not? --Numulunj pilgae 09:55, 16 October 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Numulunj pilgae (talk • contribs)

So far there are at least 3 sources in the article that are in conflict with prof. Mokshin claims on the question. Zamyatin, Konstantin (2004), also cited above at this talk page explains it rather well how All Finno-Ugrians have self-names and names ascribed by others. Taagepera is also pretty clear about it and finally there is the Finno-Ugric information center that says so too. Although I think it is an interesting fact that Mokshin identifies himself as a Mordvin, perhaps he is the last one?--Termer (talk) 13:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems the Erzya and Moksha are not the only ones who are not happy with pr. Mokshins theories. The Tatars looks like have similar problems with his ideas: --Termer (talk) 00:10, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This is what I suggest should be done:


 * 1) Interested editors build up the Erzya and Moksha articles using good sources, particularly Taagepera.
 * 2) This article on Mordvin stays.
 * 3) This article starts off by saying as it does now that Mordvin is a term for the Erzya and Moksha, sometimes known as Volga Finns, who live in the Russian Federation and speak related Finnic. It runs very briefly through all the views we have on "Mordvins" in chronological order: Latham, Mokshin and Taagepera, without passing comment on who is correct. Taagepera is the most recent so he gets the last word.
 * 4) Basically, I'm saying that I trust the editors who speak the relevant languages to do the work. If you think that the Erzya and Moksha articles need to carry most of the information, then that's fine by me. Dab and I were only around because articles on ethnic groups can be hard to write. I'll keep watching the articles and can help with copyediting and commenting on sources. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. The only reason I got involved with the article was because I had recently read the book by Taagepera and after noticing how messy the header of this article looked with highlighted The term Mordvin is mistakenly used for the Erzya and Moksha + a ton of citation needed tags for other Mordvin groups attached to the names.. I attempted to clean it up a bit according to what I had learned from Taageperas book. I only later noticed that the article had been listed at the fringe theories list and I assumed that someone thinks of the separate Erzya and Moksha Mordvins as a fringe theory since that seemed to be the main issue with the article at the time, and it looked like Dab was very much against creating separate entries at the time etc. So it seems there has been quite a bit of miscommunication going on in here.
 * After separate Erzya and Moksha articles are created I'd also go back to just Mordvins on that one here. Because for example the Meshchera people who once existed in the neighborhood are also considered Mordvins by some scholars etc..--Termer (talk) 17:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I would like to re-arrange what I intended to place in article Mokshas in the light of new issues involved. As it was discussed English sources are a must but I doubt I could avoid citing Mokshan and Russian sources. The complication is in applying the term Mordvin now to Erzya, now to Moksha which may require additional sources to be cited. I hope Itsmejudith, Termer, DBachmann as well as Numulunj pilgae will help to compile separate articles and advise in making appropriate amendments to the content of article Mokshas. Not sure I could assist in compiling article Erzyas. Thank you. --Khazar II (talk) 23:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Here are some more related facts that I've just added to the article. From The linguistic affinity of the Volgaic Finno-Ugrians and their ethnogenesis by László Klima  ISBN 9789519704012

--Termer (talk) 05:09, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

thank you for another excellent source. Can we now please drop the futile "ethinc group or groups" / "Mordvinic language or languages" non-issue? So far, all of our sources discuss the Mordvins as a single topic. Within the topic, the Erzya and Moksha are contrasted. I have yet to discover a reference that treats either group as a topic of its own. It has long become clear that the common terminology in English language sources is to treat "the Mordvins" as an "ethnic group", and the Erzya and Moksha as "subgroups". This isn't a statement of "fact" or in any way falsifiable, it is pure terminology. Thanks. --dab (𒁳) 14:27, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm not that sure exactly what are you saying and from where do you draw your conclusions? perhaps you're saying that according to the sources: the given name Mordvins versus self names Erzya and Moksha constitute WP:UNDUE and therefore as a minority view it should not be given as much or as detailed a description as more popular views? Well, I hope you're right and your interpretation of the sources can create a stable base for the article. I personally am not that sure of it for the reasons you seem to miss all together. But since from my perspective it's not worth the trouble, I don't have much to add. After providing the majority of the sources to the article I'm going to leave it up to others how to go about the ethnic structure of the people(s).--Termer (talk) 15:32, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Termer, believe me, I have a lot of experience with petty ethnic feuds taken out on Wikipedia. It always ends up with childish disputes over non-issues. This here isn't such a bad case, try and stick your nose in Talk:Assyrian people or Talk:Egyptians. I still found it is best to refuse to stoop to the same level as the teenage patriots and detachedly stick to proper academic sources and terminology. --dab (𒁳) 11:02, 28 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I see no reason to insult anybodies ethnic or national feelings no matter if any of this might be related to "teenage patriots" or "childish disputes over non-issues" in your opinion, the use of subgroup advocated by you in the article would still need an appropriate inline citation according to any proper academic sources. Who exactly out there has called the Erzans and Mokshas "subgroups" of Mordvns? --Termer (talk) 23:34, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * PS. Well, at least genealogists do not see any Mordvins around while speaking of the ethnic groups, instead Udmurts, Mokshas and Ezras get mentioned. Perhaps the genealogists have a reason for that? Please let me spell it out in case the hints to that in the privious sources have not been clear enough. the Erzas are racially Caucasian at the time when Mokshas are primarily more Mongoloid and Turkic since the Mokshas had closer contacts with the  Tatars. The situation itself is not that different from the Finns vs. the Sami up in the North Eastern Europe.--Termer (talk) 00:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * PPS.some more source dealing with genetics that mention no Mordvins but

--Termer (talk) 00:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Mari, Mokshas, Erzas instead. @ ''the European Journal of Human genetics
 * Udmurts, Mokshas, Erzyas,  @ Oxford Journals of Molecular Biology and Evolution
 * Udmurts, Mokshas, Ezras @ AMERICAN SOCIETY OF HUMAN GENETICS
 * And again, no Mordvins but Erza, Moksha etc. instead @ POPULATION GENETICS OF FINNO-UGRIC-SPEAKING HUMANS IN NORTH EURASIA by Department of Forensic Medicine University of Helsinki

Avvakum, Nikon, & Klyuchevsky
Can someone provide sources for the above 3 people being of Mordvin descent? I've looked and cannot find a source for either of the 3 in English or Russian. Sotnik (talk) 08:13, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Why not try Finnish and Estonian language sources
With fast and incomplete look at least four Finnish sources and two Estonian sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.192.216 (talk) 20:26, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Problem with etymology
The article as it currently is claims that the word "Mordva" has good equivalents in other Finno-Ugric languages: " In other Finno-Ugric languages the meaning of "man" corresponds to Hungarian: magyar, the term Hungarians use to refer to themselves, also found in a former Estonian self-identification, Estonian: maarahvas, in Mari: marij and in Komi: mort". Komi "mort" (and also Udmurt "murt", hence Udmurt -- people of the 'Ud' tribe), and perhaps Mari "marij" may indeed be related, but the connection with Hungarian "magyar" and Estonian "maarahvas" is incorrect. The Estonian word is a compound ("maa" 'land, country' + "rahvas" 'people, nation', i.e. 'the people of the country'); it is not at all related to "mard" (I note the source given for this Estonian word is non-authoritative: it's a book on the Irish language, probably written by someone who is not a specialist in minor Finno-Ugric languages.) The Hungarian word "magyar", as far as I know, has thus far been claimed to be cognate only with Mansi (the word "mansi" itself); I don't think it has been connected to "mard", "mord" (if I'm not mistaken, the sound correspondences would not match). So, this etymology paragraph in the article must be corrected. --83.81.245.220 (talk) 20:07, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Since nobody manifested any opposition, I'll go ahead and rewrite that paragrpah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.81.245.220 (talk) 19:07, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

New Book of Finno-Ugric Languages and Their Common Origin
There has been just published a new book by Tapani Lehtinen "Kielen vuosituhannet" which is one of the best researches of the roots of Finnish language. There is clearly proved that all Finno-Ugrians spoked about 4000-2000 BC common language in the area from Rava bend to Ice Sea and from Urali to shores of Gulf of Finland. Only after 2000 BC the languages separated from this Proto Uralian language. Peharps few copies of this book (total 305 pp) is worth to include to the Saransk University collection. Publisher SKS. Price (in Finland) euro 31.10. ISBN 978-951-476-898-1 or ISBN 0562-6129 Printed by Gummerus Kijapaino Oy Jyväskylä 2007. Tapani Lehtinen has worked out the text with help of Professors; Jorma Koivulehto, Ulla-Maija Kulonen, Pekka Sammallahti, Harri Mantila and Fil.tri h.d. Christian Carpelan. This book shows the name Mordva is originated from Mord which itself is based from Proto-Arja language where it has been in form Morto, a human or man. In form Mordva it appeared to the scene from Proto Old Russian language circa 950 AD. Morto is the common ancient name for both Erza (Ersä) and Moksha (Moksa) "kansat" which later to speak different variations of Morto language. Old Finnish language and Morto languages formed same language, so called Finnic-Volgaic (suomalais-volgalainen) Base Language after separation of Permian branch c. 2500 BC. Mari and Morto languages separated from Baltic Finnish language c.1500 BC. According to linguistical common history the Mordvins have been living on Rava / Rav bend at least from 4.000 BC. This, according the latest updated research based to common linguistical backround. Motto: "Pursi kulkehevi purjehensa avulla yli uavan meren äären yli loiskuvien laineheitten kohti vierahia maitha ja mantuloitha, poies kotokonthuviltain." Mordva (both Erza and Moksha) are linguistically closer to Finnish and Estonian languages than Mari language. There have been direct link to Baltic from Mordua (Carpini) or Mardasi (secret word by Paasonen). All historical facts support this, even old name Turgui or Turku and Koroinen versus Korosten.