Talk:Morecambe Bay cockling disaster

Title change
I suggest that this be moved to "2004 Morecambe Bay cockling disaster". Nearly all other articles with a year have the year at the start (2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, etc). -- vortex talk 20:34, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Drownings
I haven't found the answer to this anywhere: have they drowned because they never learnt how to swim or were there other physical factors preventing them from swimming? Thanks. PizzaMargherita 12:51, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * IIRC (but I may be wrong), it was a mixture of strong tides and being weak swimmers. -- 9cds(talk) 13:41, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Very strong tides, and to be blunt their swimming ability was pretty much irrelevent - few people could last long in seawater off the coast of Northern England in February. Average Earthman 15:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I felt, in my stupidity, that perhaps their swimming ability was relevant, but subsequently knowing the demography and occupation of the victims, and thanks to the information provided here (thank you  Average Earthman), I am now more aware of the immense danger, irrespective of swimming ability. --Timtak (talk) 14:41, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't get it. What does "strong tides" mean? Is there some kind of downwards suction involved? Would they make your feet get stuck in the sand as the waters rise? Or does it simply mean that the level rised quickly? In the latter case, the strength of the tides is irrelevant. Also, I don't think that temperature is much of an issue. If you can swim, you swim to the shore, no matter how cold you feel. It's still water, so above freezing, right? And 14 of them apparently made it. Sorry, I'm just trying to understand how these poor guys died and I don't think the references are making it particularly clear. Thanks. PizzaMargherita 15:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No, that's quite incorrect. Strong swimmers have drowned due to hypothermia. Even in summer, English seawater is rarely sufficient to avoid hypothermia conditions on extended immersion without suitable clothing (British triathletes wear wetsuits). Tests of Olympic swimmers have show that cold water (and less than 10 degrees is definitely cold) severely affects even their ability to swim. Those who drown in situations where swimming is possible in the UK, about as many swimmers drown as non swimmers . The strong tides are what meant they had no chance to avoid getting cut off - you can't wait until you see the water and head in to land there. Average Earthman 18:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. But then what is the relevance of the workers' being "untrained and inexperienced"? Isn't it more of a case of looking up the tide table before sending them to work? PizzaMargherita 19:25, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Obviously a major part of that. But their being untrained and inexperienced meant that none of them were able to question the orders of the gangmaster. Also, the weather conditions were hostile - the British cocklers were leaving the bay an hour and a half before the tide came in because of the weather. Given that Morecambe Bay also has notorious quicksands, and strong winds can affect how quickly the tide comes in on somewhere as flat as the bay, sending untrained people out onto the bay in adverse weather conditions is criminally negligent, even if you do get the tide table right. Average Earthman 21:05, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

"their being untrained and inexperienced meant that none of them were able to question the orders of the gangmaster" Uhm... sorry I can't see the causality here. You can say their being enslaved and dependent on the gangmaster meant that they were unable to question him. But untrained and inexperienced? Are you saying that if they knew about all the tide/weather facts you mention here they would have disobeyed? Are you suggesting that sending trained people out onto the bay ignoring the tide table and in adverse weather conditions is not criminally negligent? Again, sorry I'm slow, not cross-examining you eh? :-) PizzaMargherita 21:47, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Trained people would be aware that they were being sent into a potentially life threatening situation, and the gangmaster couldn't exactly threaten them with anything as bad as being drowned if they refused on safety grounds. Also, note I said sending untrained people out is negligent even if you *do* get the time table right. Average Earthman 09:25, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Title
I hate to be flippant, but isn't the title just a tad over dramatic? "Disaster" seems far too strong a word. Why not amend it to "2004 Morecambe Bay cockling drownings"? --Harlsbottom 12:29, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it is in line with usual usage of the term disaster. See for example Penlee lifeboat disaster - which would seem odd if described as "Penlee lifeboat drownings" IMHO. --mervyn 07:36, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Even so it seems more than a tad emotive. Gytrash (talk) 22:26, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Chinese naming convention
Zhao Xiao Qing, Lin Mu Yong, and Lin Liang Ren should be Zhao Xiaoqing, Lin Muyong, and Lin Liangren respectively. An example would be Zhou Enlai. Enlai is 2 characters En and Lai, but in accordance with the CCP, double charactered names are to be wrriten together. Hanfresco 08:51, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Ghosts on More4
I have isolated the film Ghosts on the page as I'm sure more information will follow now it is being broadcast on national television tonight. Adam 21:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Why did this disaster occur?
when I watched the film ghosts it was sad 21 died 15 suvived I dont know why the gangmarsters told them to do this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.217.98 (talk) 19:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it would be informative to know things like, when were they sent out, what time were they told to come in, or what instructions were they given about when to come, what were they paid, were they given any safety instructions, what should they have known, how far were they from the shore, how cold was the water, how long could one expect to survive in the water, should they have remained clothed or removed their clothes, did they attempt to bring their catch ashore, would bouyancy aids have helped, would they have been saved if they knew how to describe their location and predicament, how soon the help came, to what extent was plain drowning to blame and to what extent hypothermia to blame, were there previous instances of drowning in the bay, how many women and men were there of what ages precisely, how many of them could swim, which demographic survived, why did the survivors survive (were they better swimmers, did they set of earlier, were they taller, or better English speakers), how many of them had mobile phones, how far were they washed out to sea, what trajectory should they have swum and did they swim at that trajectory, where is the map, is there a memorial, what is the reaction in China, and what safety measures have been put in place since the disaster? It seems such a major tragedy, with so little information.--Timtak (talk) 15:06, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I added some detail, in answer to some my questions. I wanted to make clear that this was not a group of wealkings. Sexist of me I am afraid, but contra my imagination, this was no group of teenage girls and their mothers that had drowned where they stood, but a group of strong men in their prime, that had attempted to swim to shore. This information seems significant to me both to highlight the danger (even two fishermen drowned), and how their lack of information and supervision, not their physical ability was the cause of the tragedy. --Timtak (talk) 15:40, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually, plenty of evidence exists showing that women are at least as good as, and indeed generally better than men at surviving hypothermic immersions. They are also capable of swimming long distances as well as men. A male contributor.
 * I apologize for my earlier comment. Thank you for your correction. I think I came accross an article saying that a teenage girl and her mother being drowned. I imagined, based upon this information, with my outgroup homogeneity bias, that the group consisted of children and their parents and above, all since they had died people who not good at swimming. Even if the group had been teenage girls and their mothers (I think that parent child combinations may be more at risk), as you say, they certainly would not have been "weaklings," and as women may have been better at surving hypothermic immersion and swimming as well as men. I note that recently a 16 year old female swimmer swam faster than the men at the olympic games. The sex of the victims may therefore be irrelevant. I think that the fact that there were two fisherpersons in the group relevant since they are people who could be expected to swim particularly well. In any event it was my intention to add information my edits regarding this terrible tragedy, and its victims, who deserve to be remembered. Again, I am sorry I offended their memory above. --Timtak (talk) 23:52, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Racially attacked?
In the article it mentions that the workers were previously racially attacked, forcing them to work nights. Is this true, as I have not come across any other mentioning of this? EssQue 07:21, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I saw nothing of this during the court case. I've added a note that a cite is needed. I'd suggest we need a good cite from a reliable source as well, as not all activists take care to check the facts before shouting. Average Earthman 17:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd like to see this deleted. I was a cockler in 2004. In fact our group were out on the night of this disaster and had to give statements in court, etc, as we were the last to see the Chinese cockle pickers alive.We were "the British cocklers (who) were leaving the bay an hour and a half before the tide came in." There's various news accounts of us trying to warn them for being out so late. As said above, there's no source, reliable or otherwise, that they were made to go out at night because they were racially attacked. The gang master didn't say anything about that when in court either.The Chinese were made to go cockling pretty much every time the tide was out, seeing as there was a lot of money in it at the time. Even the "Cockler survivor hates gangmaster" link at the bottom of this article shows what kind of a man their gang master was.I resent being made to feel like a part of the cause of this harrowing incident.Mizerz 19:55, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Shocking. If you would point me to news accounts, I would add them to the acticle. --Timtak (talk) 15:47, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Occupational hazard?
I don't get it. Cockles, clams, arkshells are harmless little seafood. So how can cockle-picking be so dangerous? I thought nets, baits and boats were used in the same way as fishing. Is such mollusc aquaculture any different? A new section on the cockle-picking and packing process is needed. Italy is the top cockle producer in EU. Was any disaster recorded there ever? Anwar (talk) 14:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Not picked by boat - probably too difficult with the tidal flow anyway - but I think hand picking is all that's allowed to prevent loss of stocks. Because of the potential large tidal difference (about 10 metres at Barrow-in-furness), then when the tide come in, the pace is very fast - say 15mph - you cannot outrun it.  See video on Arnside

The video quoted above does not give a good impression of the speed with which a tide can envelope you in Morecambe bay. I searched for tidal ranges in Italy and came up with http://www.aviso.oceanobs.com/en/applications/ocean/tides/tides-around-the-world/index.html at 40 cm which compares miserably with the 10m quoted for Barrow. A direct crossing of the bay is 14 miles of mud (NOT SAND) criss-crossed with channels several feet deep with crumbling walls. One bad experience (as I have had) out on the mud-flats and you would not question how people could die there.84.13.66.132 (talk) 15:30, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Punishment
This article lacks any information about gangmaster	 Lin Liangren, his prison sentence related to the disaster, and his girlfriend's related conviction of immigration offenses.

This is an essential part of the article -- that someone, a fellow a Chinese immigrant, was found legally responsible for this disaster -- and should be added. I will add the information when I can accumulate background sources. 2601:B:AC80:9CE:217D:266E:1462:B626 (talk) 22:46, 6 March 2015 (UTC)