Talk:Morgan Motor Company/Archive 1

Moggie stardom?
While I agree with the "Stop the presses! (Or at least slow them down.)" crowd, I have to question including Moggie appearances in movies. Unless they are central or iconic (such as the Stang's chase scene in "Bullitt", say), take it out. Or are we to include every film, TV, & literature reference? In which case, should I mention Fast Green Car (which I think mentioned a Plus 4 Plus hardtop...)? Trekphiler 07:51, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry, as an American I would have to disagree. My first and only encounter with a "Morgan" was the three-wheeled one that appeared in the movie "The Party".  I have included it in the article under a new "Media Appearances" section.  If the number of citings/references grows too large, it makes perfect sense to me to start another wiki page to contain said information.  Now on the other hand, I do sometimes find these "media appearanc citings in other articla as something not of great value *to me*, so I can understand your point of view.  I would rather error on the side of including the information, and if necessary, due to the volume as it increases over time, create and store it in its own "cubby hole" on Wikipedia.  Dan Aquinas (talk) 17 Sept 2009

Reference: http://www.gomog.com/movies/movies.html

Cyclecar
Does the Morgan count as a cyclecar?Gzuckier 18:09, 16 May 2005 (UTC)


 * The first ones did. They were designed to avoid a British tax on 4-wheelers by being classed as motorcycles.  Trekphiler 08:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Troubleshooter
Should there be a mention of the BBC2 TV series Troubleshooter where the "expert" John Harvey-Jones gave advice to the company? --jmb 09:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think there should. It was very well known and made a big media story at the time. 86.154.15.160 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 04:01, 16 December 2008 (UTC).
 * The "Popular Culture" section should probably include Mel Brooks' Silent Movie in which the heroes' transport is a yellow 4/4. I'd do it myself if I were using a sensible Babbage-Engine rather than an iPad. Mr Larrington (talk) 18:21, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Moggies
Among their buffs, they're affectionately known as Moggies. Legend has it Plus 8s have no seats (just an upholstered floor), the suspension is made of rock, and drivers can tell which side of a coin is up by driving over it. All Morgan owners know these things to be true (even if nobody else belives it). Trekphiler 08:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)


 * This comment points out some details this article omits, such as the famously harsh suspension of the vehicle. Another two are that (unless changed recently) all the cars are built on a wooden frame (which does affect its handling depending on the humidity), & that with the purchase of Rolls Royce by Volkswagen in 1998 Morgan became the largest British-owned car manufacturer in the UK. I'd add these details except that I don't have a source Wikipedians would find satisfactory. -- llywrch (talk) 15:59, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Some confusion may exist here. Morgan's own website states "Contrary to popular belief Morgan cars have never had a wooden chassis. However they do have wooden frames. This is not only traditional but hugely beneficial to the driving experience. The ash wood is extremely lightweight, strong and gives a solid platform to attach the aluminium body panels".  Thus the weather will have no effect whatsoever on the handling. Mr Larrington (talk) 18:11, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Added Response: As well, wood absorbs impact forces rather than transfers them on to the occupants, making the cars life savers in an accident. Reference: I walked away from an accident that should have killed me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lorne Goidman (talk • contribs) 11:55, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Response: Actually, when properly maintained, the Morgan 4-wheel classic suspension is downright sensuous. However, Morgans are kept far longer than most cars, components wear, and after 20 years of neglect and 20 year old tires,they can be very unpleasant. Blame the owners, not the car. Reference: I am the author of the GoMoG Workshop Manual http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/allmorgan.html ,the largest source of Morgan knowledge in history and the owner in the past and present, of Morgans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lorne Goidman (talk • contribs) 11:55, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Morgan import into the US
Morgan's web site lists official dealers in the US, so clearly Morgan imports to the US must have restarted - anyone know when? &mdash;Morven 18:17, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll look at the autoweek article again. Gzuckier 18:29, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Response: Some confusion. The Morgan Factory took over all US compliance modifications, in steps, after the airbags became a must in 1998. (There were no Morgans officially imported from 1996-1998). Sadly, that resulted in, for the most part, the end of new car classic Morgan importation. The last Plus 8 to the USA was imported in 2004, (marking the last of the compliant +8 fueling systems) and then there were a limited run of approximately 86 V6 Roadsters for the USA in 2005 and 2006 (marking the end of the supply of classic Morgan airbags). At that point, Morgan asked for an exemption from the NHTSA rules and was refused. Reference http://www.thefederalregister.com/2007/02/02/E7-1735.html A trickle of Morgan Aeros have been imported on an ongoing basis for 12 years. They began arriving in 2005 under an NHTSA. Reference http://www.thefederalregister.com/2005/01/13/05-656.htmlexemption The Morgan M3W has been imported as a cycle car.

Recent legislative changes (2016) in the USA will allow the importation of classic Morgans with emission compliant engines. Reference. http://www.autoblog.com/2015/12/08/new-law-vintage-cars/

Source: Me and the NHTSA — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lorne Goidman (talk • contribs) 11:55, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

History, please?
So, when was the first four-wheel Morgan made? The last three-wheel Morgan? When was the failed Plus 4 Plus made? Why is there only one paragraph on the history of Morgans before the Plus 8? This article needs some serious beef! Respectfully, SamBlob 13:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Response: 3 experimental models were made in 1935 with the first production model sold in 1936. Called a 4-4 for its 4 wheels and 4 cylinder engine. Reference Ken Hill Completely Morgan (1936-1968 Four wheelers) ISBN 1 874105 33 2 The last three wheeler was made in 1952 Reference: The Telegraph. The last Plus 4 Plus was delivered in January 1967. Peter Morgan always refused to call it a "failure" stating that he made a profit on the run. References: John Worrall Original Morgan ISBN 1870979 29 Xamdmy personalcorrespondence with Peter Morgan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lorne Goidman (talk • contribs) 11:55, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Morgan in America revisited
This article makes some claims which I think are questionable regarding the importation of Moggies to the States. It also uses some unclear language:

"'For many years (1974 to 1992), all Morgans imported into the United States were converted to run on propane as fuel to pass the U.S. emissions regulations.'"

Converted by whom? My understand is that Morgans were converted by their distributors, notably Isis Imports. Morgans were not 'federalized' from the factory. The work was done by third parties, making any Morgan sold in the USA a grey market vehicle. Even if Morgan condoned the practice, they did not design the cars for American safety/emissions requirements, and therefore can't be said to have exported them to America, any more than McLaren can be said to have imported the McLaren F1 to the US simply because Ameritech homologated it. Instead, US-spec Morgans from that era are the work of "second-stage manufacturers," which is what the DOT calls a firm that federalizes a car for US sale, or dramatically modifies it from its original configuration (like Callaway and the Corvette-based C12 coupe).

Response: I am author of that article. I wrote it 20 years ago. There was first only one Morgan dealer, Bill Fink of Isis imports, importing and "federalizing" new car Morgan imports after the USA compliancy guillotine fell in 1970 This continued to a varying extent between 1974 - 2000. He was joined by a second Morgan dealer, Win Sharples of Cantab Motors in 1987. Both dealers had applied for and received US Automobile manufacturers licenses. The term "federalizing" comes from Land Rover..who coined the term for their USA imports and modifications...as in "the Federal Plenum" used in USA TR8s. In fact, the term is still used by automobile exporters to the USA. N.B. These dealer/manufacturers did not use the TR8 route and opted for propane, actually adding bhp rather than decimating it as Triumph did). Morgan References: Bill Fink (aka Isis Motors), Win Sharples (aka Cantab Motors), Bill Beck (Morgan Development Director)

The assertion that the Rover V-8 was certified in the mid-90s for the specific application of the Morgan Plus 8 also requires citations.


 * Response. That happened in 1998. The LR company used their aftermarket seller to allow the US compliant GEMS system to be adapted for Morgans. Reference: Morgan Motor Company — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lorne Goidman (talk • contribs) 11:55, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

"US safety regulations also continued to advance from 1974 to present. Morgan was challenged again and again to meet the new requirements. With the ingenuity of its local dealers, the Company was able to develop the car sufficiently to comply and dealerships grew from 1 to 9."

Again, this suggests that Morgan designed its cars for US sale. They did not.


 * Response: As I noted above, Morgan took over US federalization from the two dealers over the period in the period from 1998 to 2002, in steps. This process was completed in 2002 when they expanded the US dealer network in anticipation of the Aero's launch in the USA. There were two reasons for this. The first was that federalizing was perceived as lucrative. The second reason was it was impractical to have so many dealers selling oddly different car under the same marque and model name. References: There are many but simply read the NHTSA judgements referenced above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lorne Goidman (talk • contribs) 11:55, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

So far as my own research has found, Morgan didn't officially re-certify and export cars to the USA under its auspices until the 2002 Plus 8 was introduced, with bumpers, side marker lights, a CHMSL, and the like. This meshes with the following sentence from the article: "In 2002, Morgan centralized its international compliancy development and regulatory interaction in house."

This, of course, only lasted two years; the Plus 8 was sold as an '02 and an '03 model, with no '04 Morgans offered Stateside. Then the Roadster V6 arrived as an '05-only model, and the Aero 8, suitably homologated, arrived as well.


 * Response: Morgan took advantage of NHTSA transition provisions. They would state a car was made earlier than it actually was and have it imported under earlier compliancy acceptance. For example, 2000s were labelled 1998s. You have to get out more often! :D Reference" My lips are sealed, but compare the build sheet and the first registration date of a Plus 8 2000. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lorne Goidman (talk • contribs) 11:55, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

That's as I recall it, from conversations with Morgan dealers and perusal of periodical articles. I'm not sure I can find proper citable sources, but I'm pretty sure that this text is wrong. Anyone else have thoughts? Sacxpert (talk) 07:12, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Follow-up: The Car & Driver article referenced for propane conversion makes some of the points listed above, most notably that propane conversions were carried out by Mr. Fink and his colleagues, and that he also modified Morgans to comply with US safety legislation. This is a similar phenomenon to the importation of Citroën CXs in the 1980s, which was also carried absent the direct cooperation of the manufacturer. I removed the citations for Morgan reimportation dates, because they only state: "Source Mark Aston, MMC Director 1985-2005" and "Source Matthew Parkin, MMC Director 1996-date", with links to the homepage of Morgan Motor Company, without any proper reference at all. Mere word-of-mouth assertions and appeals to authority do not constitute verifiability under WP:V. However, unregistered user 70.53.250.129 has provided helpful information in the form of Federal Register transcripts of NHTSA rulings regarding Morgan vehicles. Sacxpert (talk) 08:55, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Response: On stuff this recent? I am considered the best credible source. Morgan dealers are not going to get themselves or their supplier into trouble. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lorne Goidman (talk • contribs) 11:55, 24 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Response: (giggle) Have you called Volkswagon and asked for who, why, when details on their diesel programming? Can you give us that as well? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lorne Goidman (talk • contribs) 11:55, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Verifcation required
I'm not sure the sentence "The Morgan factory is the only purely English-based car manufacturer still in business." is true. Are the BMW engines built in the UK?Faris oxide (talk) 18:34, 13 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Responses: You have a good point. Morgan has never produced its own engines. They have used Fiats and now US made-Fords and US-made S&S motorcyle engines for their M3W. In fact the entire idea and much of the design of the new threewheeler is from the USA. Reference: GoMoG Webmaster and the US designer. You can also see Andrew English, the automobile reporter for the Telegraph. : Response: On stuff this recent? I am considered the best credible source. Morgan dealers are not going to get themselves or their supplier into trouble. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lorne Goidman (talk • contribs) 11:55, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

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