Talk:Morgan Tsvangirai

Intro change
I'm going to look into some solid sources on it, and then change the intro to say something more substantive than "Tsvangirai claimed to have actually won a majority, however." There is substantial evidence outside his personal pronouncements for that, and I'm going to look into making the statement more of a fact-based claim, and not just a "he said" claim. Huadpe (talk) 03:20, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Simba 18:17, 2 May 2006 (UTC): I'm the one who added the IPA flag. I don't feel comfortable with using IPA yet myself, but from the IPA chart for English, I pieced together the following. Maybe someone with more experience can improve upon it and modify the article accordingly. This, if it wasn't obvious, is for the pronunciation of Mr. Tsvangirai's name: (ˈmʊəgɪn ˈtʃeɪŋɪəaɪ) Note that I used the IPA listed under "RP" for the vowels and dipthongs because I figured the British spellings and pronunciations were more encyclopedia-like; I've never actually heard Morgan's name pronounced, so I can't be certain if this is correct, I'm just trying to help out.

I believe the proper pronunciation is Swan Grrr I (swan as in bird, Grrr as a growling sound, and I as in the personal pronoun). Could be wrong, just very glad he is still alive.--Economic.mip 01:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

That would be tsvaŋgərai, then? And tʃæŋgərai (Changgarai) is just a simplified TV journo's version, presumably - Rothorpe 22:43, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Since the current pronunciation has no support here, and isn't possible in English but doesn't say it's something else, I'll put these in instead. If you correct me, please state (1) which language we're talking about, and (2) where the stress (or tone) is. kwami 21:49, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I know how to pronounce Tsvangirai. Would an audio file help? Eenoowendo (talk) 16:14, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

"changgarai" is not just a simplified TV "journo's" version, it is the way it is pronounced in Shona. 142.68.131.36 (talk) 14:48, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm struggling with the pronunciation of Mr. Tsvangirai's name given in this article, which indicates that the /s/ and /v/ in the name are co-articulated. That seems impossible to me, as one can't possibly co-articulate /s/, which is voiceless, and /v/, which is voiced. Also, it is said that doubly articulated fricatives are very difficult to pronounce and have not been confirmed for any language. I'm not familiar with Shona, but something like seems more probable to me. Ucucha 17:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
 * The "tsv" is just a nonsense artifact of transliteration. That sequence of three consonants doesn't even exist in any romance language.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.85.207.43 (talk) 00:49, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Not true. Say the phrase ‘its very nature’. But we are speaking of the Shona [ts͎] here, not ‘Romance’ (I think you mean Indo-European) languages. And we are not talking about transliteration. – Kaihsu (talk) 10:12, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I think there needs to be something for the layman (Tsvangirai (pronounced Chang-gar-eye)) or some such. Timeshift (talk) 23:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The English pronunciation (/ˈtʃɑːŋgəˈraɪ/ or /ˈtʃæŋgəˈraɪ/) of Tsvangirai's name is as important or more important than the Shona pronunciation and should be kept in the article. I have re-added it. —   AjaxSmack   17:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Fixed Eng per BBC TV, and Shona per Shona article. Sv is a "whistled" [s]. Have yet to find a really good description. kwami (talk) 10:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Freedom fighter
I have taken offence that on the main page Mr. Tsvangirai is refered to as a " former freedom fighter".

This is clearly factually incorrect as he is fighting for freedom in the present, since there has never been more reason to do so in Simbabwe.

The late Mr. Kabila always ( and correctly ) referred to himself as a freedom fighter while struggling the Mobutu regime. Was he the only honest african politician ever to have lived?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.105.20.119 (talk • contribs).


 * Tsvangirai is fighting for freedom, but he is not a freedom fighter. "Freedom fighter" commonly refers to those who are involved in armed rebellion. I have removed your email from the message above, less the bots pick it up and start bombarding you with spam. --Ezeu 21:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Democrat
The assertion that he is a Democrat is questionable, given his handling of the role that he played in the political infighting and splitting of his party in 2005, and the way that he recently unilaterally imposed a new head for the party's women league. --Fkwacsp 22:17, 18 Decemer 2007 (GMT)

Does not anybody think the sentence "Morgan Tsvangirai is a criminal product of important social movements in Zimbabwe, which include the labour and constitutional reform movements" a bit strange? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.151.33.213 (talk) 13:38, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Smoke and drink
Is it relevant that he 'does not smoke and drink'? I am sure he doesn't do a lot of other things as well? I could stay in if he prides himself on this, but more info would therfore be needed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 194.176.105.40 (talk • contribs).
 * I agree. --Ezeu 09:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

NPOV
The "International reaction to recent violence" section is longer than any other section in this article. This is a clear violation of WP:NPOV's undue weight clause. KazakhPol 04:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I totally agree. The flags are silly, they don't have any relevance to this article. The reactions of individual countries should be put together into some few sentences. --androl (talk) 17:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

NPOV
I think its fine,it was a major event.Africa Festival —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 13:45, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

2nd round May 23
I added this: Morgan Tsvangirai has agreed to a presidential run-off with Robert Mugabe. The date of the run-off is unclear. But Morgan stated: "The election should take place no later than May 24."[http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL10289914  www.reuters.com. Zimbabwe opposition says ready to contest run-off] --Florentino floro (talk) 10:01, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Dutch embassy refuge
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7469705.stm how this will fit on the news, I leave it to the expert sad :( w_tanoto (talk) 14:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic group
What ethnic group is he? Badagnani (talk) 02:19, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting question. My personal, educated guess, based on his family name, is Shona. -- 79.180.107.176 (talk) 14:52, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Prime Minister
Is there a source clearly indicating that he is sworn in and actually serving as prime minister right now? The source given refers to him by that title, but doesn't say anything about him being sworn in. Are we to assume he became prime minister immediately when the agreement was signed on September 15? I would expect legal changes would be needed to introduce the post of prime minister, since it was abolished back in 1987. That's what happened in Kenya earlier this year: Kibaki and Odinga signed an agreement, but it took weeks for the necessary legal changes to be made so that Odinga could take office as prime minister. Everyking (talk) 05:08, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I tend to agree. The agreement says that Parliament will ratify a 19th Amendment to the Constitution of Zimbabwe, which will introduce necessary changes into the Constitution. Since ratification of that amendment is probably still pending, he's not yet the legal PM, since that office does not currently exist under the Constitution. Ucucha 05:44, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Just noticed that the AFP is calling him "prime minister-elect". I think it's pretty clear that he's not prime minister right now. Premature updates are all too common in situations like this. Everyking (talk) 09:15, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Yup. Its Prime Minister Designate  Mangwanani  (talk) 16:41, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Its Prime Minister designate,case closed!mangqina-Mazondo (talk) 04:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC) Africa Festival
 * If you wanted to have the article say he was designated Prime Minister (which is only very slightly different from what it already said), you did not need to revert all the improvements I made to the intro and later sections in the process. The previous intro was particularly bad, filled with excessive detail of 2008 events with no mention of his 2002 presidential candidacy. Everyking (talk) 05:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Everyking we have been editing this article since two years ago,you cannot come here and make edits without consensus and expect respect. mangqina-Mazondo (talk) 02:24, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been editing this article since 2004, but it's not about who has been here the longest, it's about good editing. Here's the difference between the versions. Explain to me why your version is better. The differences that I see are as follows: A) You included "Prime Minister-designate, 15 September 2008" in the infobox. Well, I don't really care that much if you want to do that, but I think it's premature. B) You added back an intro that was full of unnecessary details and focus on the 2008 election and failed to mention the 2002 election at all&mdash;please recall this is a biographical article about a person's life, not the 2008 election. C) You restored a bunch of poor wording and redundant wikilinks in the 2000 section. D) You changed the office-holder template at the bottom, removing "-Tsvangirai" from the name of his party, so that it said "President of the MDC, 2000-2005; President of the MDC, 2005-present", which doesn't make any sense, because if you felt there was continuity and they were the same party, wouldn't it just be 2000-present? Everyking (talk) 05:00, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Image
user:Jainituoa posted this comment within the article:
 * With all due respect, but I do really think that this articles needs an image from Morgan Tsvangirai itself. So Iurge you, people from Wikipedia, to agree about this issue here. Thank you very much
 * With all due respect, but I do really think that this articles needs an image from Morgan Tsvangirai itself. So Iurge you, people from Wikipedia, to agree about this issue here. Thank you very much

Michael Hardy (talk) 17:11, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The Right Honourable
I see that Tsvangirai is styled "The Right Honourable". I wonder what entitles him to use this style? Is the Prime Minister of Zimbabwe somehow ex officio member of Her Majesty's Privy Council? Or is there some other reason? – Kaihsu (talk) 22:25, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
 * While not a brillant source, the title is used by the SADC . The title is also used for the PM of Lesotho (by a number of other sources as well). Perhaps a few commonwealth countries have taken or retained the title even if their PMs are not members of the Privy Council. Obviously any country can style people however they wish and there is no monopoly on the term (indeed the article says Turkey also uses is as does Australia and Canada in some circumstances where the person is not appointed to the Privy Council) Nil Einne (talk) 15:28, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

That satisfied my curiosity. Thanks. – Kaihsu (talk) 15:58, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Picture?
Is there a picture of Mr. Tsvangirai for this article? --Blue387 (talk) 01:13, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Apparently not, if someone were to find one I'm sure of this posting it would be up instead of Alison Krauss. 72.24.198.153 (talk) 06:02, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Please remember, that Wikipedia and Commons only accepts images if the author releases some of his rights under a free license so that everyone can use the image for every purpose including commercial use. I think this was the 3rd time an image of Tsvangirai was uploaded to Commons without the authors permission. --Martin H. (talk) 18:23, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation and alphabetization
Why the frak isn't it spelled Changurai? What moron decided to alphabetize african language so that "tsv" = "ch"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.85.207.43 (talk) 00:03, 15 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Please spare us of your ignorance. – Kaihsu (talk) 09:48, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * It should be official Wikipedia policy to prefer transcription over transliteration wherever possible. Transliteration is usually incomprehensible to the vast majority of speakers of both the source language and the target language.76.85.207.43 (talk) 00:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Morgan Tsvangirai MP?
Are there sources for this designation as a member of the House of Assembly, and of what constituency? So far, I haven't seen what parliamentary constituency he holds, and it is common for first-past-the-post constituency-based legislatures to pick a PM from among fellow MPs rather than from non-MP party leadership. --Toussaint (talk) 01:31, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * My impression is that under the recently-amended Constitution of Zimbabwe, it is possible for a party participating in the Government of National Unity to enter Ministers (including the Prime Minister) ex officio into the Parliament without being popularly elected. But Mr Tsvangirai might have been elected in the recent parliamentary election (which may or may not have been free and fair). – Kaihsu (talk) 09:51, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
 * He was sworn in by the President as a non-constituency MP. Babakathy (talk) 16:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Car crash
It has been reported that he was involved on a car crash and his wife, Susan Tsvangirai, has died. I've added the current event template, but I'll let others add it to the article -137.222.114.243 (talk) 17:38, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

The section dealing with the car crash should not be called "2009 Assassination Attempt" if there is no evidence presented to further that conclusion. 173.32.37.154 (talk) 15:46, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Let's keep it as "car crash", like the heading of this section - crash does not imply a particular cause, unlike accident or assassination attempt. Babakathy (talk) 16:43, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Chronological attention
Can someone shed light on the following paragraph and explain one thing?
 * Three years after coming to power, Robert Mugabe ordered the Fifth Brigade, a military unit specially trained by North Korea, to a massacre in Matabeleland in cooperation with the Minister of Defence Enos Nkala, led by Air Marshal Perence Shiri because of suspicion of an alleged counter-revolution being planned by Joshua Nkomo. The operation was code named Gukurahundi. Morgan Tsvangirai, who at the time was a Zanu-PF official, claimed that he questioned the motive of the massacre with the ZANU PF leadership in 1984[10]. Tsvangirai has periodically toured the mass graves of the victims in Tsholotsho, Kezi, Lupane, Nkayi and other places in rural Matabeleland. Addressing villagers in Maphisa in 2001 he said...

Although I haven't had time to read the entire article and am not an expert on Zimbabwe, I know that the conflict in question occured between 1982-1987, and three years after Mugabe came to power would have been 1983, so how could Tsvangirai have been a part of Zanu PF? The whole creation of ZANU PF was itself a merger between ZANU and ZAPU which brought an end to the years of fighting in Metabeleland. Do I take it that he was a ZANU Ndebele? Or was he a ZAPU rebel? Evlekis (talk) 19:00, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct. The article refers to Gukurahundi as taking place in 1984 and MT as having criticised it on various occassions. It does not say that he said it in 1984 or that he was a ZANU-PF official then (or at any other time). I have removed the first sentence. Babakathy (talk) 18:49, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for clearing that. It now makes sense and matches the reference. Evlekis (talk) 20:50, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

````He was part of Zanu when the killings of Matebeland were taking place. Remember he once said "...can kill for Mugabe ...". Once a Zanu always a Zanu - lifetime membership! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.223.141.82 (talk) 14:40, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Has his photo been edited....????
http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE55Q08820090627 --222.64.23.11 (talk) 22:22, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Can you see something on his photo...???

Withdrawal from Unity Govt.
Surely we need to mention this and alter the article where appropriate...  Mangwanani  (talk) 18:25, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

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