Talk:Morihei Ueshiba/Archive 1

Hitohiro Saito
Hitohiro Saito, the son of Morihiro Saito, was a child when he trained with Ueshiba. I see no reason to quote his memories of osensei. There are dozens of osensei's students we could rather quote, but let's stay out of that. /Habj 20:05, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Uchi-deshi
The new piece on notable uchi-deshi needs to be fleshed out. Bubamara 08:22, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Biography
I would like to see the biography expanded a bit while avoiding style or author specific references. It's a bit redundant when the points are made elsewhere - about 20% of Ueshiba's Biography was talking about Saito and Ueshiba's son each which have their own entries. The links are adequet for finding the information. Peter Rehse 05:08, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

I expanded the biography being careful not to exclude information already there.Peter Rehse 08:12, 16 September 2005 (UTC)

Would someone adress why in the section on Deguchi there is very little information on his encounter with the chinese army, I mention this because I believe the "dodging balls of white light" story should be first in the section of "awakenings " that led to the roots of aikido. This story is very prevalent in aikdo literature and I wonder why it is not included.128.192.36.80 (talk) 02:16, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Soke Morihei Ueshiba
I noticed that the "Soke" is the name for "founder of a style", (martial arts). Should Ueshibas article include this title? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fred26 (talk • contribs)


 * Absolutely not. Soke is a title used by some Japanese martial arts to refer to the founder or head but I have never heard the term used in Aikido.  In Japan Ueshiba M. is sometimes referred to as Kaiso which means founder and in fact this term is far more commonly used than O sensei which seems to be a Western affection.  I have actually run into Aikidoists mortally offended by another art using the term O sensei as if it somehow slights Ueshiba M..  Both Kaiso and O sensei tend to be used primarily within the Aikikai and its newer derivatives.  In the older styles it is much more common to just hear Ueshiba sensei but then again they do not have the confusion of familial succession.  Personally I would like to see O sensei removed from the articles orther than a mention that some Aikidoists refer to him as such but I think that would raise a few hackels.Peter Rehse 00:57, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Hackles be dammed I reduced the number of O sensei's in the text and clarified its usage a tad. I have never heard one Japanese Shihan use the term O sensei while in Japan. Not saying they don't just that its not common.Peter Rehse 02:58, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Well it's fine by me. I only asked because I noticed Gozo Shioda is referred to as "Soke Gozo Shioda" on the official Yoshinkan website. When I first saw it I figured that if Shioda had a "Soke"-title then Ueshiba should too. Oh, by the way, my own aikido club (Ki-aikido) usually just say "Ueshiba sensei" or "Ueshiba". I cant actually remember anyone using the phrase O-sensei other than in a few introductionary speeches.
 * Fred26 09:56, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Interesting point about Yoshinkan I am more familiar with them using the term Kancho but it is their choice. Perhaps they didn't use Kaiso as not to confuse Shioda with Ueshiba. Soke would not be a wrong usage for either man just in the case of Ueshiba it was not the term used. I am going to ask a Yoshinkan Honbu Instructor his opinion on this. At Shodokan Honbu (Tomiki's dojo) it is always Ueshiba sensei and interestingly Tomiki is always refered to as either Shihan or sensei - no other titles. In Ki society how is Tohei sensei refered to? Peter Rehse 10:35, 3 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Tohei? Well I suppose it's mostly just "Tohei-sensei" and/or "Tohei" for mentionings in day to day training. (to say Tohei without the "-sensei" might sound disrespectful in Japan but it is not in Sweden :)) As for the official, formal titles of both Koichi Tohei and Kenjiro Yoshigasaki I have no idea. My club belongs to the latters Ki no Kenkyukai Internationale organisation by the way.


 * Fred26 13:00, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

O-Sensei kanji
Can anybody verify if the kanji for "O-sensei"? This article says it is written as 翁先生, while the Sensei article says 大先生. I always assumed the latter was correct. --Philippe 18:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


 * 大先生 is pronounced "daisensei" or 'master'. It is possible it can also be pronounced "O" instead of Dai, as the 大character has both of those readings. 翁先生 Is a pretty unique kanji.　Actually, I checked the Japanese wiki page about osensei, and it has the same kanji: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/植芝盛平

I have a pretty good feeling that a Japanese fellow would have noticed this if it were the wrong one. As far as some of the comments a while ago about Japanese not commonly referring to him as Osensei, there are a lot of Japanese who are completely ignorant of anything happening 15 years ago, let alone 50. Imagine what your average middle-aged American would know about Daniel Boone...zip... Wwilson 1 06:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your comments. Could you change the kanji over at sensei as well? I don't feel comfortable changing it myself since I'm not a kanji expert. --Philippe 09:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * In the Sensei article the point is the difference between elder and younger - I am not sure the O in O-sensei refers to that relationship. I think venerable 翁 is probably right with regards to Ueshiba but I would not change the kanji in the sensei article.  I have no clue to the kanji used with respect to Mas Oyama.  With respect to the O-sensei not being commonly used in Japan (since I am the one that mentioned it) I base that on current students and people that were around while Ueshiba was alive.  Frankly, young or old, you rarely hear it.  I seriously doubt people are more ignorant in Japan than outside in this regard.  CheersPeter Rehse 12:21, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey Pete, Another point about calling Osensei Osensei, is, 90% of the best aikido teaching and instruction is happening outside of Japan anyway, and most students outside Japan call him Osensei. You seem to think there is only virtue in imitating exactly what the Japanese are doing. Actually, I see much better bowing and dojo etiquette outside of Japan than inside. (bows seem more of an instinct/afterthought there). Here in the states, bowing is a deliberate act, since it is not so common in everyday life. As far as Ueshiba Sensei is concerned, I've asked Japanese students in Japan and here in the states (aikido students) about him, and most of them knew extremely little about him compared to American Aikidoka. To them, Aikido is just another Judo or Karate, with the foundations and history not necessarily important. Anyway, to reiterate my main point, not only is he referred to as Osensei in the Japan Wiki article, but a majority of Aikidoka outside Japan call him Osensei, and I am guessing this is also the Aikido majority by virtue of numbers. Oh, and to top it off, there's always the proverb, "A prophet is never respected in his homeland" or something to that effect. I think that is very true of most japanese culture. Reiki is another great example. I lived in Japan for 3 years, but never even heard of Reiki till I came back to the US. Same goes for most buddhism, tea ceremony, and all that stuff. The west loves it and eats it up, and the Japanese youth just want to throw it out and imitate American styles. Hopefully you are aware by now that just because they do it in Japan doesn't mean it's automatically the better way. (thank God America doesn't imitate their post-war architecture) and as a side note, you're a shodokan guy right? You probably have the least use of "Osensei" of all Aikido styles since it was developed from a student who was with Ueshiba before his enlightenment/title and revered old age. Wwilson 1 18:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Lets be a bit careful about reading into my motives. I just commented that the term was not that commonly used in Japan - not that it was wrong or that it should be banned.  The subject came up because at the time the article was so heavily peppered with the term it begged for a bit of moderation - besides Wikipedia policy is to avoid the excessive use of martial arts titles as it tends to confuse non-martial artists.  If you trained with me in Japan you would know how wrong it is to say that I imitate  exactly what the Japanese are doing.


 * I may be Shodokan but I have trained all over the world, in a number of styles, for a number of years - when I travel I actually never visit other Shodokan dojos but whatever dojo great or small that is nearby. I've seen some great Aikido outside of Japan and some not so great stuff inside but I definately would be careful assigning percentages of the best teachers.  Of the five best teachers I personally know - only one of them is abroad but that of course is only my opinion.  I will say that every good teacher I have met has spent time at the source.  The Japanese approach to training is to actually get on the mat and train - too much reading and not enough training gets you lost in the mundane.  When they do get to the point of delving into the history (and they all do eventually, some immediately) they have access to more sources than available in English and I belive understand the underlying context better.  And by the by, Tomiki was teaching at Aikikai Honbu into the 1960s and actually joined Ueshiba M. at the time of the first enlightenment experience.Peter Rehse 01:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Right on Peter,
 * Always keeping me honest. Sorry I got a little suspicious of your motives. Just that I really like the spiritual/philosophical/ki side of Aikido, and you 'seem' to see it as a hindrance, though I don't know you well enough to know what you really think, so I needn't be so suspicious. I know you have Aikido's best interests at heart, but so do I! Wwilson 1 05:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem - I was ranting about this little exchange to a friend of mine and I used the exact same words when I described you (ie. best interests at heart). We can take this private if you like but I do have quite strong thoughts on the correct balance between the philosophical and the physical.  I actually see them both heavily intertwined but primarily understood through the physical practice - however I also don't want that opinion to be glaringly obvious in the article itself.Peter Rehse 05:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I was looking through the dedication of Mitsugi Saotome's Aikido and the Harmony of Nature (Boston: Shambhala, 1986) vi-vii., which is written in Japanese and translated into English, and he used the characters 大先生, so I changed it. Peace User:Lostinthesound 12:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC).


 * There are two kanji used for the O part but the 翁 by far is the more common. Consensus was to be consistent with the Japanese version of the article.  Please also see the article on Sensei.  If anything we should be internally consistent.Peter Rehse 07:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Picture
As very few pictures (perhaps none at all) of Ueshiba-sensei are in the public domain (or FDL), we should find another solution for depicting him here. Perhaps a wikipedian can make a new picture of his statue. I also have a drawing of him, loosly based on a picture. Would that violate any copyrights? --Philippe 07:08, 8 September 2006 (UTC)


 * (source) states:
 * "Most photos are taken from behind as it was impolite to take a picture of the Founder from the front." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sysy (talk • contribs)

Tohei sensei's 10th Dan
According to all books and websites I've read, Koichi Tohei is the only Aikidoka to have received 10th Dan directly from Osensei, while Osensei was alive, as opposed to being processed by others withing the Aikikai system. It can be read here in the fourth paragraph: http://www.furman.edu/aikido/ToheiBio.html This site is edited by Tohei's confidant, 7th Dan David Shaner. http://omlc.ogi.edu/aikido/talk/tohei/index.html 3rd paragraph http://www.okinawankarateclub.com/shudokan/index.htm 6th paragraph under 'about shudokan' http://houstonkiaikido.org/society.htm 5th paragraph http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~src188/About/About.html 2nd paragraph under "about Osensei"

And let's not forget THIS (probably the best web-based factoid) http://www.aikidofaq.com/misc/10dan.html

notice, that only 2 of these websites are Ki Aikido, and the others are affiliated with other styles, yet maintin the same statement. The burden of proof now falls to the person who would try to edit the statement.Wwilson 1 18:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't worry, I won't try to edit this page again, but your last link says it clearly, there are 3 people who were verbally awarded 10th dan by O'Sensei in his lifetime: Tohei, Hikitsuchi and Abbe. The difference is that Tohei is the only one who had his 10th dan ratified by the Aikikai (after O'Sensei's death). Maybe you should rephrase your statement a little bit ArthurWeasley 18:45, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, if you look around on the net, you'll see that Osensei 'verbally' awarded a LOT of people 10th Dan. "oh, you're pretty good, we'll make you 10th Dan right now!" as a kind of compliment to aspiring 6th and 7th Dans, who later took it seriously and came to Aikikai demanding recognition. However, Osensei very specifically gave Tohei a 10th Dan on his deathbed with the intention of him being the head instructor of the Aikikai, this is very different from, "nice work 3rd kyu, let's make you 10th Dan today!"Wwilson 1 19:22, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Still, this does not make true the statement that Tohei Sensei is "the only 10th dan awarded from O'Sensei", unless you consider that verbal statements given by O'Sensei to be of no value. There is an interesting anecdote at:
 * http://www.cup.com/kobayashi-dojo/english/book/3_4.htm


 * O'Sensei's comment was “I authorized them, so what’s the problem?” which basically means that his words are as good as a piece of paper. A more accurate statement for Tohei Sensei would be "the only officially recognized 10th dan awarded by O'Sensei" or something similar. ArthurWeasley 21:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Abe Sensei 10th dan
In the main page, on the disciples section, it is wrongly stated that Abe sensei degree is 8th Dan. O-Sensei promoted him to 10th Dan. This can be verified at Abe sensei's web page, and honestly, he personaly told this information to his students. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.189.112.21 (talk • contribs)


 * Well the 8th Dan is what the Aikikai recognizes, the 10th Dan was verbal (see the discussion above). Still if Hikitsuchi is listed as 10th dan so should Abe.Peter Rehse 01:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Cause of death
I was just wondering if anyone here knew more specifically what kind of liver cancer Ueshiba died from. It might look more encyclopedic to use a more specific medical term. Bradford44 13:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The doctors report from Keio University Hospital indicates Hepatocellular carcinoma, however as you know, cannot be a citation to that report but you are free to include the information. Sorry, forgot to sign yesterday, I correct it today. Jennylen 07:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I'll update the infobox, and it can always be rehashed if someone objects to its accuracy. Bradford44 23:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Medically speaking the most accurate should be: "died from complications caused by a terminal hepatocellular carcinoma" as in true the cause of death is not the carcinoma itself but what it does to the body systems. It is perhaps too long, I just mention it because is the correct medical form to express it if you were looking for that, but you can put what is better from the presentation point of view of course. If you are interested, he died at home after been discharged from the hospital. Jennylen 12:20, 15 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This article needs a great deal of expansion in general, and as it gets more comprehensive, the details of his death (i.e., that he died at home after being discharged, etc...) are absolutely appropriate to include. In the meantime, as it pertains to the infobox, it should be sufficient to list "hepatocellular carcinoma" with a link to the article about it.  After all, it is the proximate cause of death, if not the exact cause, and that's clear enough for the infobox, which is just meant to be a quick overview of the almanac or census type information. Thanks for the clarifications. Bradford44 22:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I deleted "of hepatocellular carcinoma" from the infobox as no citation was given and this was not supported in the body of article. Incidentally, the article body reports he died of cancer but the citation given only implies he died of cancer.


 * I thought the Japanese language article would be better but its hatted with three citation-needed banners. The death is reported as from liver cancer with no source. At the bottom of the section says that the the section, or possibly the entire article, is based on the book "合気道開祖 植芝盛平伝" ("The Story of aikido founder Morihei Ueshiba") by 植芝 吉祥丸 (Kisshomaru Ueshiba, author), and 植芝 守央 (Moriteru Ueshiba, role unspecified) published 1999. The Japanese language edition is ISBN 4882931680. I don't think there was a direct English translation though "A Life in Aikido: The Biography of Founder Morihei Ueshiba" (2008) by Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Moriteru Ueshiba (ISBN 477002617X) looks similar. Amazon has a "Look Inside" of the latter book and searching it for "liver" indicates he likely had liver cancer though someone should get that book to confirm if that was the cause of his death and can then cite the page number. --Marc Kupper&#124;talk 16:07, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Improvements
I've tried to add text and references to the first part of the article. There are other quotes here that I don't know the source for. Perhaps someone can provide the sources?

The Personal Traits section seems pretty weak and unsupported as it stands.

The lineage box at the bottom doesn't seem to provide much information for all the attention that it commands.

What are others' thoughts out there.

I surprised that this page hasn't received more attention up to now. Ueshiba was such an important teacher.--Mateo2006 22:16, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

some refer to him as ...
oosensei, some as aikidoka

oosensei, ok, no problem, he's the great teacher, but aikidoka is hardly a unique title given only to him in aikido circles, given that anyone, who practices aikido on some level is an aikidoka. --Ben T/C 19:50, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Feel free to improve the wording (of that and anything else you can find in the article)!&mdash; Mrand  T-C 20:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ahhhh I see what happened. It has evolved (via misunderstanding) from "by some aikidōka."  The "by some aikidōka." was awkward anyway - can you think of a way to improve? &mdash; Mrand  T-C 20:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Early years
In the paragraph " Early years" it is written that During his childhood, the Ueshiba family lived in Maizuru, Kyoto. This information is very surprising : Stanley Pranin, Editor of aikidojournal - an authority concerning the history of aikido-recently said :''Morihei Ueshiba's youth is well-documented and I have never heard of him or his family living in Maizuru. The only connection I know of with Maizuru is the fact that he had a number of naval officers stationed in this port city as students when he was conducting classes at his home while residing in Ayabe in the early 1920s.'' (see:http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12020&sid=cd4bc4b9c224b0b9cedaab4deb3486df )

Either the mention of Maizuru ( at this period) is an error, and the passage should be deleted...or it is a real scoop, and it should be necessary to quote a reference.

Waiting for your answer ( hoping the passage is a scoop !!!) and sorry for all errors : this is my very first post in wikipedia...and in a foreign langage !

Logglog (talk) 21:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I've added the correct "citation requested" flag there. Thank you for bringing this to our attention!  &mdash; Mrand  Talk • C 22:50, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

You were right, Logglog, I was wrong. Good catch. Mazeltov. Aikibum (talk) 02:44, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Personal traits paragraph
Sorry, I don't use Wiki as often as I should and certainly don't understand the editing system. I hope this is the right place and is acceptable.

This personal traits paragraph does not make sense and, in places, contradicts the earlier material. It certainly contradicts what I have always understood.

If I have understood it correctly, a supporting references for this paragraph have been awaited since August 2007 and has not been forthcoming. Should it not now be removed ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.12.156 (talk) 01:01, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

John Steven's book "Abundant Peace" mentions much of what is contained here. Personally I don't like to use Steven's as a source. This whole article is rather weak when you consider the number aikidoka who are probably very interested in seeing a good job done here. I say, don't hestitate to try to add something of value here by reworking present material with new material for which you have references. There is plenty of material out there on Ueshiba-sensei. --Mateo2006 (talk) 02:46, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Missing important student
In the list of students of O-Sensei, I don't see the name of HIROSHI ISOYAMA sensei. 8th dan, currently the head of Iwama Dojo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.189.119.1 (talk) 15:59, 19 November 2010 (UTC) —Isoyama sensei was added last year. I added Watahiki and Inagaki today. Perhaps Inagaki should have his own page since he's now 8th dan.--202.232.52.138 (talk) 03:47, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

aiki shuren

 * Here he founded the Aiki Shuren Dojo, also known as the Iwama dojo

Currently the above links via redirect to Saito's son's school of aikido, shinshin aikishurenkai and the tanrenkan dojo. Isn't that next door from the actual original Iwama dojo, which is still owned by the founder's family (and hence now run by aikikai)? Confusing. Google reports aikishuren dojos all over the world. Was Aiki Shuren also the previous name of what is now Ibaraki branch? Cesiumfrog (talk) 15:49, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

— Saito's son set up a separate dojo, so it is not the dojo Ueshiba built and taught in. The Ibaraki Branch Dojo is the original Iwama dojo that should be linked to. Presently all of the Iwama dojos and Aiki Shrine share the same page although it is made clear in the text which one is Ueshiba's.--202.232.52.138 (talk) 03:51, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

children
This article has a lot of information about the history of aikido, but could probably do with more information about the individual's life outside of aikido. For example, how many children did he have? Cesiumfrog (talk) 23:53, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Why Is The 31 Catter Called the 31 catter?
I Need Asnewer NOW!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.157.3.28 (talk) 13:39, 13 August 2012 (UTC)


 * just wow. (I guess this is some kata that was illustrated in 31 movements?) Cesiumfrog (talk) 03:59, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

The interpretation of Kokyu
''In his own expression of the art there was a greater emphasis on what is referred to as kokyū-nage, or "breath throws" which are soft and blending, utilizing the opponent's movement in order to throw them. Many of these techniques are rooted in the aiki-no-jutsu portions of the Daitō-ryū curriculum rather than the more direct jujutsu style joint-locking techniques.''

This definition of Ueshiba's practice in later life and the definition of "kokyu" is contested. Note that those of Iwama lineage use this term for power in techniques that involve solid grabs and that their version of history has Ueshiba insisting on "solid" technique from his students even into old age. Also note that many aikido practitioners are turning to "Internal Power" (Kokyu) from outside of aikido in order to replicate Ueshiba's feats. The article should have a more inclusive version of Kokyu. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.232.52.138 (talk) 04:01, 30 January 2013 (UTC)