Talk:Mormon Trail

Rewrite of this article
This article needs major work. A revised version should include, at least: The LDS Mormon Trail site lists the following points of interest. Many of them may already have articles or be worthy of them. I've organized them here in sequence, by modern state.
 * introduction/orientation to the trail,
 * discussion of all the major geographic points,
 * appropriate historical events at various points,
 * quotations from journals and/or historians,
 * experiences by non-Mormon groups who used segments of the trail,
 * further expansion of Mormon colonies,
 * the trail as a protected national site, and
 * links and "See also" to appropriate Wiki articles

Illinois: Iowa: Nebraska: Wyoming: Utah:
 * Nauvoo -- trails starting point, original home base for the LDS migrants.
 * Sugar Creek (7 miles west of Nauvoo)
 * Richardson's Point (35 miles west)
 * Chariton River Crossing (80 miles west)
 * Locust Creek (103 miles west)
 * Garden Grove (128 miles west)
 * Mt. Pisgah (153 miles west)
 * Nishnabotna River Crossing (232 miles west)
 * Grand Encampment (255 miles west)
 * Kanesville (later Council Bluffs) (265 miles west)
 * Winter Quarters (266 miles west)
 * Elkhorn River (293 miles west)
 * Platte River (305 miles west)
 * Loup Fork (352 miles west)
 * Fort Kearney (469 miles west)
 * Confluence Point (563 miles west)
 * Ash Hollow (646 miles west)
 * Chimney Rock (718 miles west)
 * Scotts Bluff (738 miles west)
 * Fort Laramie (788 miles west)
 * Upper Platte/Mormon Ferry (914 miles west)
 * Red Butte (940 miles west)
 * Sweetwater River (964 miles west)
 * Independence Rock (965 miles west)
 * Devil's Gate (970 miles west)
 * Martin's Cove (993 miles west)
 * Rocky Ridge (1038 miles west)
 * Rock Creek (1048 miles west)
 * South Pass (Continental Divide) (1065 miles west)
 * Green River/Lombard Ferry (1128 miles west)
 * Ft. Bridger (1183 miles west)
 * Bear River Crossing (1216 miles west)
 * The Needles (1236 miles west)
 * Echo Canyon (1246 miles west)
 * Big Mountain (1279 miles west)
 * Golden Pass Road (1281 miles west)
 * Emigration Canyon (Donner Hill) (1283 miles west)
 * Salt Lake Valley (1297 miles west)

We could select from these points, chosing the most major. Or points could be combined into a narrative dealing with an incident, i.e. Wyoming sites dealing with the Martin and Willie handcart companies. Some minor sites have one story or incident attached to them. Do you like the geographic sequence? Other alternatives? How would the editors like to procede? WBardwin 03:32, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I generally agree with your proposed outline, with a few additional comments:
 * We ought to keep in mind that from the Missouri River to Fort Bridger the Mormon Trail coincides with the Oregon and California Trails. There are articles on both, and also on the Emigrant Trail.  My suggestion would be that we cover the geography of this section more lightly and just emphasize the landmarks or settlements that were especially important to the Mormon migration.  We would go into bit more detail on the sections in Iowa and from Fort Bridger to Salt Lake City that are unique to the Mormon Trail.
 * I'd suggest going lightly on quotations from journals. It could easily get out of hand if every editor with an pioneer ancestor wanted to add a quotation from grandpa or grandma's journal.
 * Because of the extensive overlap with the Oregon and California trails, I'd suggest limiting discussion of non-Mormon emigrants on the trail to a brief discussion of their use of the section from Fort Bridger to Salt Lake City.
 * I'm not sure what you have in mind by "further expansion of Mormon colonies." If you mean the colonization/settlement of the Mountain West, including such settlements as San Bernardino, Las Vegas, Idaho, Arizona, Alberta, etc., I think that should really be a separate article (assuming one doesn't already exist).  I recall many years ago reading a book by Milton Hunter called Brigham Young the Colonizer that deals with this topic; I'm not sure what more recent literature is available.—BRMo 04:56, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the thoughts. I would generally agree with your four points.  Certainly Mormon experiences should be heavily highlighted, and places/times where Mormons and others met and interacted should be a focus too.  People like Jim Bridger and Thomas L. Kane (I just wrote his article) bring a context to the LDS experience. Journal entries are our primary source for the trail experience, but they should be carefully weeded for relevance.  The LDS external link that provided the list above uses journal entries, as was done in the Ken Burns TV documentaries, to tell the story.  We would want to use prose, with very select journal entries.  On #4, I think a secondary article is a great idea (and a lot of work, although I read Hunter's book some years ago), but readers should understand that the "Mormon Trail" didn't come to an abrupt halt at Salt Lake Valley.  Over the life of the migration, emigrant trains simply rested in the valley for a day or two and then moved on to other areas as assigned, like the Sanpete and Cache valleys.  A sentence or two with examples of specific wagon trains or companies would probably be enough.
 * Lots of questions about organization remain. Which of the places on the list are notable enough for separate articles (if they don't have one now)?  Which places could be reasonably combined in sections, like the eastern Wyoming sites?  And how are we to deal with elapsed time, as early companies had different experiences than later companies?  One chunk for geography and another for linear time?
 * I found a couple of survey style books about the trail, but there are many other sources for individual places. Will do some reading to refresh my memory.  WBardwin 06:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Here are my thoughts on the questions you've posed:
 * Which of the places on the list are notable enough for separate articles (if they don't have one now)? I've added links to articles where I could them.  I'd say articles are also needed at least for Sugar Creek,  Red Butte, Rocky Ridge, Echo Canyon, and Emigration Canyon.  A couple of points of interest that could be added are Genoa, Nebraska (settled by the Latter-day Saints as a supply point) and This Is The Place Heritage Park.  I'm sure other landmarks will be identified with additional research.
 * Which places could be reasonably combined in sections, like the eastern Wyoming sites? Some suggested sections: Iowa (mostly covering the 1840s); the Missouri River area (Winter Quarters / Kanesville / Florence); Missouri River to Fort Laramie; Fort Laramie to Fort Bridger (with a focus on the handcart companies); and Fort Bridger to Salt Lake Valley.  The Iowa section could include a brief subsection on the route used by the handcart companies from Iowa City to Florence.
 * And how are we to deal with elapsed time, as early companies had different experiences than later companies? One chunk for geography and another for linear time? I think the organization of the Mormon Trail article should focus on geography.  Content that is intrinsically chronological could be moved to the Mormon Pioneer article.  Would it make sense to tackle both of these articles at once to try to ensure that they complement each other without simply being repetitive?—BRMo 20:00, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Sites of rescue of Willie and Martin handcart companies
I've been doing a little research on the trail. I was a bit surprised at how little information seems to be available about two of the most important sites on the trail, the locations where members of the rescue party first found the Willie and Martin companies.

According to Rescue of the 1856 Handcart Companies by Bartholomew and Arrington, the Willie Company was stopped by snow (and had run out of flour) "near the Fifth Crossing of the Sweetwater." I haven't seen any indication that there is any marker or identifier of the site. There is a marker for the Willie Company and an LDS memorial site located at Rock Creek, but Rock Creek is two or three days travel further west and would have been reached with the assistance of the rescuers.

The Martin Company was halted for 9 nine days near "Red Buttes" (called "Red Bluff" or "Red Bluffs" in some of the accounts), which apparently is about 10 miles west of the last crossing of the North Platte near Casper. The accounts say 56 emigrants died there, food was running out, and hope was running out. Again, I haven't found of any indication that there may be a marker near that site, and in fact the Wyoming Web site mentions a proposal for open pit gravel mines in the area. However, there is a memorial and LDS information center at Martin's Cove near Devil's Gate, where the party was halted by another storm about a week after the rescue.

My assumption is that the Rock Creek and Martin's Cove sites have been memorialized because the specific locations could be identified, while the location of the camps near the Fifth Crossing and near Red Buttes where the rescue parties found the pioneers are unknown.

I've also noticed a lot of resulting misinformation on various Web sites. For example, several sites say that the rescuers found the Martin Company at Martin's Cove, though the actual location was some 65 miles east.

The Wyoming site on emigrant trails is quite good.BRMo 04:03, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Map
A map of the trail would help this article greatly. If anyone has a properly licenced one we could use, please put it in the article. Tom Stringham 02:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Vanguard Company
Should we produce a paragraph on the initial company under Brigham Young -- which blazed the trail, kept a distance record, established "mailboxes" and organized a ferry? Could be a good transition from the background section into the list of sites. And there are a number of good primary and secondary references. WBardwin 05:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a good idea to me. uriah923(talk) 13:50, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I began a section Vanguard Company of 1847 in Mormon Pioneer -- and I have quite a bit more information. How much material on this topic should be included in this article?  Two or three paragraphs summarizing the larger body of material?  Opinions and comments welcome.  WBardwin 08:28, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that sounds like a good idea. It would fit nicely as a subsection under The Trek West. Just include the "main article" tag pointing to the info on Mormon Pioneer. uriah923(talk) 16:02, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * added a slightly condensed version on the Vanguard Company to the article, blending it with some of the previous information. It feels long to me and I think it could propably be condensed further, so everyone feel free.  With as much information as is available, is a seperate article on this company justified?  Comments and edits welcome.  WBardwin 18:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll take a look at the additions to see if I can shorten it. The best thing to do is probably to write a separate article on the company and then link to "more details" from here (and from Mormon Pioneer).  uriah923(talk) 14:35, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the collaborating
Thanks to all those who helped out with the collaboration on this article. The improvements were significant. If you're interested, the collaboration selection for June, 2006 is Anti-Mormonism. uriah923(talk) 13:45, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

GA awarded
Congratulations on the GA. There is one little thing I think should be addressed is the Sites along the trail section which IMHO should become a brilliant prose maybe sectionning it into the states and thus dumping the nice list already there onto another article. Lincher 03:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'm glad my nomination went through. One question though: did you add it to the list of Good Articles?  I couldn't find it, but I might have missed it. Tom Stringham 17:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Utah did not exist in 1846
Maybe this has been discussed and rationalized, or it could be part of some an odd Wikipedia standard. I'm not sure.

Here is the problem. When Mormon emigrants arrived in the Great Salt Lake Valley in the summer 1846, they were in Northern Mexico over 200 miles west of Texas and nearly 100 miles south of Oregon Country. The article keeps repeating "Utah" rather than Mexico. Yes, there was the "Utah Territory" but it didn't become a U.S. territory until 4 years later, in 1850. Nor is there any mention of Nebraska not existing as a territory until 1850 (State in 1867) or that the Wyoming Territory didn't exist until 1868 (State in 1890). Prior to these dates (1850 and 1868) both were in the unorganized Indian Territory.

It light of the missing facts, the validity of the article is in question.

Calling everything Utah before there was a Utah, or even a Utah Territory, would be like saying before General Sherman began his  march to the sea, he and his officers saw  Gone With the Wind at The FOX Theater in  Atlanta,  had Coca-Colas and Chili Dogs at The Varsity, and visited with the  Allman Brothers on the way to  Savannah. Well, it’s not that bad, but pretty close.

I know this article is a clean up job and it takes time (More time that I have tonight).

Let us not contribute to the dominate view of the traditional academic world: that Wikipedia is not trust worthy. Take the time to get it right. Thank you Matthew R. Lee (talk) 05:06, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I've made a couple of edits to the intro to clarify that Nebraska and Utah were not yet organized during the early years of the Mormon migration.  Reviewing the rest of the article, however, I don't see much of a problem.  When the article discusses the geography and locations of sites along the trail, it uses present tense and refers to modern state boundaries.  I think it's appropriate for it to do so because, as is mentioned in the first paragraph, the Mormon Trail is currently designated as a National Historic Trail and is part of the National Trails System (even though it hasn't been in regular use for transportation in 140 years).  In discussing historical events, I think the text of the article (with the exception of the intro, which I just fixed) is generally pretty careful about talking about Utah only after the territory was organized in 1850.  For example, the word "Utah" doesn't appear at all in the sections, "Trek of 1846" or "The Vanguard Company of 1847," and the latter section notes that the land they settled became part of the United States in 1848.  The sections "Ongoing migration" and Handcarts" do refer (appropriately) to Utah during a period when it was an organized territory.


 * I'll take another look at the rest of the article and see if there's any other wording that needs to be tweaked, but I don't think there are major problems. BRMo (talk) 21:44, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

For comparison
Good faith IP edit moved here for comparison. Much of the material duplicates existing text, and no source is cited. WBardwin (talk) 06:14, 23 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The Mormon Trail was created by Mormons who settled in Utah near the Great Salt Lake. The Mormons followed part of the Oregon Trail to Utah and settled in present day Salt Lake City. From 1846 to 1869, more than 70,000 Mormons traveled along an integral part of the road west, the Mormon Pioneer Trail. The trail started in Nauvoo, Illinois, traveled across Iowa, connected with the Great Platte River Road at the Missouri River, and ended near the Great Salt Lake in Utah. Generally following pre-existing routes, the trail carried tens of thousands of Mormon emigrants to a new home and refuge in the Great Basin. From their labors arose the State of Deseret, later to become the Utah Territory, and finally the State of Utah. The Mormon pioneers shared similar experiences with others traveling west: the drudgery of walking hundreds of miles, suffocating dust, violent thunderstorms, mud, temperature extremes, bad water, poor forage, sickness, and death. They recorded their experiences in journals, diaries, and letters that have become a part of our national heritage.
 * The Mormons, however, were a unique part of this migration. Their move to the Valley of the Great Salt Lake was not entirely voluntary, but to maintain a religious and cultural identity it was necessary to find an isolated area where they could permanently settle and practice their religion in peace. This was a movement of an entire people, an entire religion, and an entire culture driven by religious fervor and determination