Talk:Mormon handcart pioneers

FAC copyedit
Hi page-watchers, as part of WP:URFA/2020 I am conducting a copyedit and review of this article. Please review my edits to ensure that I did not unintentionally change the meaning of any sentences. If you do revert anything, please comment below and explain why so I can improve my copyediting. I also have some questions below that I hope someone can answer or clarify; responders can answer underneath each bullet point to keep the conversations organised. Please keep in mind that I know very little about this subject: A general thought: I am concerned about the overreliance of "Hafen and Hafen (1981)" and a lack of variety of sources for this article. I did a JSTOR search of "Mormon handcart pioneers" and found 306 references, including this, and this. I am sure that if I continued looking for the names of the companies, I would find more information. There's also this book, this book and this book which can also be consulted. While I don't expect every source to be consulted on this topic (as I think they are far too numerous) I do think that not enough sources and expert perspectives are present and this article needs additional research. Is anyone interested in working on this? Pinging, as they pinged me to review this article. Z1720 (talk) 03:55, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * "caused the body of the church to move from..." What does the body of the church mean? Is this a physical building, the upper religious figures of the organisation, the religion's congregation, or something else?
 * "Brigham Young said that he had received divine direction to organize the church members" When did this happen?
 * "Contributions to expand the fund were encouraged." Anything notable about donating to the Perpetual Emigration Fund? Most religious organisations encourage their members to donate to their charitable causes. Or is this sentence worth deleting as too much detail?
 * "The response was overwhelming– in 1856 the Perpetual Emigration" How was it overwhelming? Did it increase migration, or donations, or both?
 * "("Iowa hickory or oak");" Why is this in quotation marks?
 * "Ellsworth had a member of the company "tin" the wooden axles and also installed "thick hoop iron skeins"" What do these terms mean, and can the quotation marks be removed?
 * "[T]his was in the month of september [1856] and our dear" Why is part of this bolded?
 * "The emigrants would eventually go to Latter-day Saint settlements throughout Utah and the West." When did this happen? In the spring?
 * I have cut a lot from the "1856: Willie and Martin handcart companies" section, and will probably continue to do so. I suggest that this article WP:SPINOUT into its own article.
 * I would like to divide the "Disaster and rescue" section into two. Any recommendations on where to split?


 * Z, (the original nominator) is still active, but only sporadically editing, so a response may be delayed.  Another editor who may be able to answer some of the questions, or opine on the additional sources, is .  Here is a diff of your cumulative edits plus my minor MOS changes.  Thanks ! Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  15:14, 4 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Z1720 and SandyGeorgia - Thank you for reviewing and editing this article. I'll take a look at your edits and try to address your questions. BRMo (talk) 22:20, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
 * BRMo, good to see you again! FA standards have changed a lot since 2006, so some of the edits may feel different to you :)  Best regards, Sandy Georgia  (Talk)  22:24, 4 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Z1270, Here are some responses to your questions and suggestions:
 * What does the body of the church mean? It was used to mean "group of people." I've changed it to "most church members."
 * Brigham Young said he had received divine direction... when did this happen? I've revised to clarify the timing.
 * Contributions to expand the fund... I've deleted as too much detail.
 * The response was overwhelming... This was referring to the response by potential emigrants. I've reworded and hopefully clarified.
 * ("Iowa hickory or oak") Why is this in quotation marks? I guess I wasn't sure what was meant by "Iowa hickory." (It could be Carya ovata or Carya lacinosa.) At any rate, it seems like unnecessary detail, so I've deleted it.
 * Ellsworth had a member member of the company "tin" the wooden axles and also installed "thick hoop iron skeins" What do these mean? I didn't contribute this paragraph. An iron skein is a piece of metal that fits over the end of the wheel's axle. Regarding the tin, one source described it as wrapping tin around the cart axles. In view of how much has been cut from the article, I'd be fine with dropping this paragraph as "too much detail."
 * Why is September [1856] bolded? I assume the bolding was an editing error. It appears you've already cut this quotation, which I'm okay with.
 * "The emigrants would eventually go to Latter-day Saint settlements throughout Utah and the West." When did this happen? In the spring? My reading suggests that there was variation among the group. Some relocated in the spring, while others moved later.
 * I have cut a lot from the "1856: Willie and Martin handcart companies" section, and will probably continue to do so. I suggest that this article WP:SPINOUT into its own article. Yes, I see. I agree that a separate article (or articles) should be added.
 * I would like to divide the "Disaster and rescue" section into two. Any recommendations on where to split? My only thought on how this might be done would be to reorganize the text to have a first section describe the plight of the handcart companies up until just before the rescuers appear, and a second section describe the rescue party and their actions. I think that could work well in terms of narrative, though it would mean moving parts of the story out of chronological order, which is how it's now written. If you agree, I would be willing to do the rewrite.
 * I am concerned about the overreliance of "Hafen and Hafen (1981)" and a lack of variety of sources for this article. I agree. When I wrote the article in the summer of 2006, Hafen and Hafen was the only full-length book focusing on the handcart pioneers, so it was an invaluable source. Since then, books have been published by Orton (2006), Swinton and Groberg (2006), Roberts (2008), and Moulton (2019). I have all of these except for Moulton's (and I'll get hers), and they add detail and perspective. Roberts, in particular, adds a new perspective that is very critical of Brigham Young. But I wonder, how would you recommend that I approach adding citations to these sources? Normally, I would add new citations when I add material to an article, but it seems that your review and edits have largely involved cutting detail. Should I focus on adding new material from these sources? I also note that all of these books except Moulton focus on the Willie and Martin companies, which is the part where you've done the most cutting. Or should I look more at just substituting references to other sources and trying to reflect their perspectives while not expanding the text too much?
 * Thanks for your comments and questions. I will continue to work to try to improve the quality of this article. BRMo (talk) 04:22, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * On how to add the sources: I suggest adding information from the sources without worry about how long the article will be. Once the information is added, we can cut less important information. You can also work on creating the Williams and Martin company article, then summarise that information into this article. I am happy to help trim information when you are done adding information. Z1720 (talk) 15:58, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Okay. I've created a new Willie and Martin handcart companies article. It will probably take me a week or so add information from the other sources we've discussed. I'll let you know when that's far enough long for you to have another look. BRMo (talk) 03:59, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm starting to add new information but will need a few more days to complete the work.BRMo (talk) 06:10, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting me know; there's no rush to finish this. Please ping when the edits are complete. Z1720 (talk) 13:29, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
 * how is this coming? Sandy Georgia (Talk)  13:27, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry - I've been in a busy period and haven't had time to finish my edits. My busy spell ends in two weeks, so I should be able to finish my edits by the end of this month. BRMo (talk) 03:27, 5 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Any update on this? Z1720 (talk) 02:34, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I apologize for letting this slide. I will try to finish it over the next week. BRMo (talk) 03:29, 31 October 2022 (UTC)