Talk:Mormon pioneers/Archive 1

To-do list
Realizing that I am nowhere near being an expert on this subject, which has so much information that could be added, I am leaving this request here for a bit of organization so that a To Do list can be made. Here is what I have in mind:


 * A discussion of handcarts versus wagons
 * Writings on each party or perhaps just a list
 * "This is the right place" needs to be in here somewhere
 * I think adding personal accounts would be a nice touch
 * Information about locations and events along the mormon trail would be a good thing, although it would likely fit better at mormon trail

I will address this at Latter_Day_Saint_Collaboration_of_the_fortnight, as a candidate the colaboration (so perhaps it will be noticed in five years). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.187.180.214 (talk • contribs) 02:21, 4 February 2005


 * I have a few requests of my own:

--Lethargy 23:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Add inline citations
 * Info about the Perpetual Emigration Fund
 * Possibly add a summarized section for the Mormon Trail.
 * Separate sections for the vanguard company, the handcart pioneers (a summarized version of Mormon handcart pioneers), and the "there and back" wagons, which were mentioned in William E. Hill (1996). The Mormon Trail: yesterday and today. Logan, Utah: Utah State University Press. ISBN 0-87421-202-2 p. 26

Edits
I added a link to BYU's "Overland Trail" collection, which contains diaries of the Mormon Pioneers. I also did some editing. Billlund 04:34, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)

Rename Article
As we are not defining a Mormon Pioneer but talking about the composition and movement of the Mormon Pioneers, I would like to see the article renamed/moved. Opinions? WBardwin 07:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it is fine just the way it is. I see little point in making more than one article on the subject. I think the redirect does the job just fine. Isaac Crumm 12:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * a "move" does not create another article -- all this article's history moves as well. In effect, this page would become the redirect and all existing material would be found on the current redirect page.  I just think the title should match our topic sentence.  WBardwin 18:24, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with renaming/moving. The title should be "Pioneers" (plural). BRMo 21:41, 25 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree as well. The plural s is also used for Mormon handcart pioneers, so why not here? Also, does the Pioneer need to be capitalized? --Lethargy 21:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * No, Mormon pioneers would be best for Wiki standards, I'm sure. Should we have a formal vote or just make the change?  WBardwin 22:11, 6 October 2006 (UTC)


 * It doesn't seem particularly controversial, but we need to have an admin move it. We could just copy and paste this into the redirect page but we should have an admin move it instead so we can maintain the edit history. --Lethargy 23:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

This article has recently been moved to Mormon migration to Utah without discussion. I personally prefer the previous Mormon pioneers as the migration is generally known and is referred to, by that name, in many history books dealing with the American West. Plus a Google search shows 483,000 hits for Mormon pioneers. The current name is less familiar and should, in my opinion, be reduced to a redirect. I would urge that we undo the recent move. Opinions, please. WBardwin (talk) 05:23, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree that Mormon pioneers is much more common usage. Another problem with the new name is that Utah was not the only destination of the Mormon emigrants—they also settled in Idaho and Arizona, and at least initially, in California and Nevada. BRMo (talk) 17:21, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Shall we then plan on reverting back to Mormon pioneers within the next few days? We should at least give the user who moved the article time to join this discussion.  I'll check back in a few days!  WBardwin (talk) 20:40, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Clearly, 'Mormon pioneers' is a term for the people. Clearly also, 'Mormon migration to Utah' is a term for the movement of this group of people to Utah. The content of the article states that the discussion is in regards to the movement to Utah and that is what the content includes. I also created the category 'Mormon migration to Utah' to clearly distinguish it from the people category named 'Mormon pioneers'. This is how many historical events are handled in WP: a people category for the people and a different category for elements of the event. No facts are lost by my changes which I see as a consistent WP improvement. Hmains (talk) 02:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The article name change is an improvement only to you so far at least.  However, I would support using the name for your category -- there are many other related topics that could go in such a grouping. WBardwin (talk) 04:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * "Clearly" is not a rationale. As WBardwin has observed, Mormon pioneers is the term most commonly used for the migration as well as for the individuals who migrated. An analogy is the article titled Pilgrims, not Separatist migration to New England. BRMo (talk) 11:47, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Clearly is fron the dictionary. 'Pioneers' are people.  And I see that the Pilgrims article is also misnamed and could well be named 'Pilgrim migration to New England' with perfect correctness.  Hmains (talk) 02:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, pioneers are people who migrated, which is what the article is about. And consensus is a Wikipedia policy that was followed when the name was changed to 'Mormon pioneers' (see discussion above), but was not sought with the latest name change. BRMo (talk) 03:24, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

As we haven't drawn any attention from other editors, I'm moving the article back to Mormon pioneers. Best to all. WBardwin (talk) 00:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Vanguard Company of 1847
I have created a rough section with the above title, and have more material. Vanguard company is a common description in church materials, but other titles have been used. Is this the best one for this article? Other suggestions? Comments welcome. WBardwin 08:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe in current (meaning these days) church articles it is frequently called the Brigham Young Company; but Vanguard Company is not a bad name, other than it has similarities to an investment firm. Isaac Crumm 12:17, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Goal: featured status by July of 2007
BRMo, with a little help from others, managed to get Mormon handcart pioneers featured in time for the 150th anniversary. Let's see if we can pull that off again with this article, with a goal of sometime before July 24, 2007, so it can be featured on the front page for Pioneer Day. --Lethargy 23:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

A discussion of the Ship Brooklyn
The opening paragraph of this article excludes other types of Mormon pioneers: I wonder if it would be appropriate to include some discussion of the Ship Brooklyn that carried a number of Mormon pioneers on a dangerous six month voyage from New York City to San Francisco around Cape Horn, stopping in Hawaii and then landing in what is today the San Francisco Bay? It's a fascinating, often forgotten part of Mormon Pioneer history and the subject, I feel, deserves it's own entry. Mention of it here may inspire someone to start that article.

Nhansen 17:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that sounds like a great idea. Please add it! uriah923(talk) 15:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Added. Nhansen 16:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Mexican-American War of 1846-48
I have long been intrigued by the irony of the Mormons taking refuge around the Great Salt Lake beginning in the mid 1840's only to find that this geography soon became territory possessed by the United States. The pioneers continued to flow despite defeat of Mexico in 1848, & despite a settlement of the war involving ceding & purchasing of the Great Basin soon after 1848. Thus, I feel the Mexican-American War, & the territorial aftermaths thereof, should be addressed by, at least, a brief & succinct passage in any treatment of Mormon migration to the Great Basin. Shall I contribute?

DPWKBW = David Parker West 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Another good idea. Please contribute! uriah923(talk) 15:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Notes and References
I added the wikipedia "automated" notes and references section to the article. I think it would be good to go back through and assign the references listed in the original "references" section to the proper place in the article. Thoughts? Nhansen 02:59, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * A great idea, of course. By the way, thank you for your contributions on the Ship Brooklyn. uriah923(talk) 20:42, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * My pleasure. Do we know who crafted the bulk of the Vanguard 1847 section? That seems to be the section to figure out the references for. Nhansen 21:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * This section is mostly mine -- I'll look my sources over and correct any major deficiencies. Please mark/highlight areas in question.  WBardwin (talk) 02:08, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I've found two cited sources and edited them so that they are in-text citations. If this is ever going to reach featured article status, we'll need to work on assigning the other 5. Nhansen 02:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, so much for that. User:BRMo reverted my in-text citation edit. Not sure we'll ever move forward on this. Nhansen 14:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry - I didn't delete the in-text citations you added, but I did restore the references in the Reference section. Not trying to get into an edit war or anything, but I find that in articles with a lot of in-line citations, it's helpful to also include a list of the major references in alphabetical order in the References section.  It also allows you to use abbreviated citations for the in-line citations.  See Mormon handcart pioneers (a featured article) for an example of what I'm talking about. BRMo 17:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No worries at all :) And I agree with you that it is more helpful with the alphabetical reference listing. Nhansen 20:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Category:American pioneers
To improve visibility in the Index, I placed Category:Mormon pioneers as a subcategory to the American pioneer category. Comments? WBardwin 23:19, 18 June 2007 (UTC)