Talk:Morning Glory Zell-Ravenheart/Archive 1

Unicorn
Added a citation for "living unicorn." It's not a great one, but it is a citation. I'll keep my eyes open for a better one.

Septegram 04:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Sacrificing quality for quantity, I've added a couple more links on this. If I run across better ones, I'll add 'em.
 * Septegram 04:35, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a link to a really obnoxious site with sheep running around the page.
That unicorn dreams site may have relevant information but those sheep running around on the page make it impossible to read. Further, linking to a site like that gives a very unprofessional tone to a Wikipedia article. Can you find a less offensive source for the information? GBYork 21:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC) This user was found to be a sock of Mattisse


 * Not yet. The trails turn off easily by clicking in the upper left-hand corner, but the music doesn't seem to have an "off" button.
 * Believe me; if I could have found a more professional site, I'd have done so. At the rate we're going, I may have to research it and create one myself (in my copious spare time!)
 * Septegram 14:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Inappropriate to use Wikipedia to thank family and friends for letters of love and support
As nice as it is that the subject of the article wants to thank her friends and family, an encyclopedia article in an inpropriate place to do it. See WP:EL - links to personal websites are to be avoided. GBYork 21:37, 23 August 2006 (UTC) This user was found to be a sock of Mattisse
 * It isn't a spam link, it's a citation of her illness and injury. WP:V and all that.  And she didn't put it in, I did.


 * Davidkevin 16:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It doen't matter who put it there. Consult WP:EL: Links to be avoided GBYork 13:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)  This user was found to be a sock of Mattisse


 * Then please use phrasing which doesn't appear to imply that she did.


 * Davidkevin 22:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:Undue Weight re.: A.C.E. Events
Article about various figures in the Neo-Pagan religious movement do not exist as a means to provide promotion for A.C.E. events. A.C.E. is a fine organization, and Starwood and WinterStar Symposium are marvelous to attend from all first-hand accounts I've ever read, but unless a Pagan figure is an A.C.E. organizer, shoehorning plugs for these events into these articles appear to me to be violations of WP:Undue_Weight. -- Davidkevin 18:50, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * In my opinion, appearing as a featured speaker at the biggest and best-known Neo-Pagan festival in America is an important credit to anyone who is a professional lecturer in the fields that Starwood is known for (including New Age subjects, entheogens, etc). However, I agree that a list of public appearances is a superior and more encyclopedic addition to any such subject's article, and eliminates the issue of WP:Undue_Weight. I provided one for Oberon Zell-Ravenheart, and M. Macha Nightmare, and I have now provided one for Morning Glory Zell-Ravenheart. If you would like to help me provide such lists for other articles where they would be more appropriate than just the Starwood (or Starwood, Pagan Spirit Gathering, and Free Spirit) mention and take those out of the body of the text, I would not only agree with that action but applaud it.Rosencomet 20:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Deleting appearances and some text
I've just deleted the list of appearances due to my perception that it is listcruft. Morning Glory as been making public appearances for over thirty years, at least since 1974-75 and probably longer. Paring such a list even to "notable" appearances might be difficult if not impossible. I don't believe a laundry list of appearances adds anything to the entry or encyclopedic understanding of the subject. -- Pig manTalk to me 02:05, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Proper form of name(s)?
In this and the Oberon Zell Ravenheart article, sometimes the last two name are hyphenated, other times not. Which is it, officially? ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 02:27, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I checked, it's "Zell-Ravenheart" per Mythic Images website and Adler. Fixed. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 04:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Sourcing
I doubt I'll get to it tonight, but this needs sourcing to be up to WP:V standards. I might get to it soon, but if someone wants to first, a lot of it can be covered with Adler, especially the most recent revision. Ah hell, I'll try to source it, but I'll have to flag the bits that aren't covered in the books and zines I have at hand. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫ ♦ ♫ 04:16, 17 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, and this is an interesting point about information about Morning Glory I get because I actually go to her house and talk to HER. I guess I must then have to write an article and have it published to establish this information as &quot;Properly Sourced&quot;? Such as the point of whether OZ and MG's new last name is hyphenated (Zell-Ravenheart). I guess I would have asked them as they are the ones that chose that new name. But what do I know. I'm not a talented Wiki Editor ~ Eric J. Hebert (talk) 07:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Choctaw
This claim will have to be sourced to something other than self-reporting. Or it will have to be rephrased, and sourced, to say she "claims Choctaw heritage". I am unaware of MGZ-R having any involvement in the living Choctaw communities. Enrolled Choctaw I know, active in their communities, have never heard of her. As she is selling "shamanism" classes, the claim of heritage becomes more controversial, and even more in need of sourcing, than if she were not doing anything that could be seen as capitalizing on this claim. If she only claims distant ancestry, and this cannot be proven, she cannot be included in the category, "Choctaw People". Thanks. - Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 18:12, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Major policy-based changes and clean-up
Significant policy-based changes and clean-up on a BLP per following: no WP:RS, only web pages, many of which are dead links (dead ones removed, replaced with cn tag); significant tracts of WP:OR including medical claims e.g. "In 2006 she was diagnosed with a broken spine and multiple myeloma" and trivia e.g. "Zell-Ravenheart has facilitated workshops at many events and festivals over the years" – all removed, especially the former per WP:BLPPRIVACY; removed business links and adverts e.g. "Zell-Ravenheart runs Mythic Images, a Neopagan business that..." per WP:NOTPROMOTION; removed lists of unpublished and unsourced works e.g. stories, discography, dead-link articles, claims of local media appearances, etc. per WP:NOTRESUME; removed large "further reading" section not about the subject per se but rather about philosophies advocated by the subject, which appears to be WP:COATRACK (and many dead links); notability-tagged since the usual preliminary checks turn-up questionable results i.e. no obvious sources about the subject (most of these were dead links, now removed), no appreciable holdings of her published work, in particular her "Creating circles" book is held by only ~50 institutions and her "Grimoire" book by exactly 1 institution, extremely low numbers for mass market books. This article was created in the earlier days of WP and even went through an AfD in 2006, being kept mostly on the basis of testimonials – things are different now, of course, and much more strict w.r.t. notability and proper sourcing, especially for BLPs. This article has a significant number of watchers and I urge those who may be upset by these policy-based changes not to simply revert. This article was a real mess and needs help! Please identify and add WP:RS. Thanks, Agricola44 (talk) 16:40, 30 January 2013 (UTC).
 * Removed dead link and moved web pages to "external links". This person has a large web presence, including on YouTube, but the article itself has no real sources. I will do some digging for more. Agricola44 (talk) 15:37, 13 August 2013 (UTC).

Guiley as a source
Looking through the google books content used here as source material, I have to conclude Guiley's "Encyclopedia" is simply not reliable, at least not concerning the Zells. She has some howling inaccuracies about the Choctaw claim, and doesn't even get Tim/Otter/Oberon's name right (he was still Tim when he and Morning Glory met; he didn't take the name Otter until approx. the early 1990s). It's shoddy work; had she even read, say Drawing Down the Moon, she would know better. I haven't read all of Guiley, but everything I've checked has had serious inaccuracies, that anyone with any knowledge of the subject matter should be able to spot. I encourage others to check the actual text in Guiley if she is used as a source for anything. At this point I simply can't regard her as reliable. - Slàn, Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 02:20, 17 February 2014 (UTC)


 * J. Gordon Melton says Oberon/Otter was named Timothy Zell when the two met in 1973. Page 617 of Religious leaders of America: "In 1973 Morning Glory met Timothy Zell (now known as Otter Zell), founder of the Church of All Worlds." Binksternet (talk) 03:25, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * June Melby Benowitz agrees in the Encyclopedia of American women and religion, page 397: "Morning Glory met the keynote speaker, Timothy (later Otter) Zell..." Both this and the Melton books are already used as references. Melton is from 1999 and Benowitz is from 1998. Both of these authors failed to update their books in time to include the name "Oberon". Binksternet (talk) 03:39, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Oberon was using the name Otter G'Zell at least as early as the late eighties. He was booked as such in 1989 at the Starwood Festival. Rosencomet (talk) 18:03, 17 February 2014 (UTC)


 * This may be an issue of private use vs. public vs. legal, as often happens with spiritual names. I'm pretty sure he announced it in Green Egg the early '90s...maybe Spring/Summer of '91? He wrote about wanting to change his name, and that he had occasionally been called "Otter" as a childhood nickname. In '85 I'm pretty sure he was still, "Tim," according to friends who had just visited the Zells (then again, maybe the name change hadn't caught on yet). If he had you put it in the Starwood brochure in '89, that may have been the first small-scale publication. I don't know if and when he changed it legally. - Slàn, Kathryn NicDhàna  ♫ ♦ ♫ 18:40, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
 * First, I was not the person who put it in the Starwood brochure, but it is there and available on the ACE website. Second, Oberon began using the name Otter G'Zell in February of 1979, and Oberon in September of 1994. I mentioned the controversy to Oberon via Facebook, and he gave me these dates, and said that the biography in the Encyclopedia was accurate and wonders why Morning Glory's Choctaw heritage is a matter of controversy. I'm not sure how to properly document any of this since you have not presented specific items you consider "howling" and "serious" inaccuracies, but I would be happy to help verify anything you like if I am told the proper way to do it, or ask for a statement from Oberon if you like, in whatever the proper form is. I'm not sure what contradictions you believe there are in Drawing Down the Moon, but even Margot Adler is not perfect.Rosencomet (talk) 02:03, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Gail Salvador
Speaking of Facebook, I noticed from perusing the site that Morning Glory enjoys her role as grandmother, and frequently sees her daughter who lives an hour away in the East Bay. I would like this biography to tell the reader that Morning Glory and Gail Rainbow Salvador have apparently mended the rift that caused Gail to go back to her father who raised her in Eugene. If there are references anybody here knows about (not Facebook), it would be helpful. Binksternet (talk) 02:22, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This would be original research, of which the article already has too much. It seems the article has gradually regressed again with the insertion of lots of unsourced personal details, including descriptions of medical problems, that probably violate WP:BLPPRIVACY. It is close to needing another policy-based clean-up. Agricola44 (talk) 21:44, 20 February 2014 (UTC).


 * I'm just asking whether others here can find a reliable source to describe the present mother–daughter–granddaughter situation. I'm not asking for violations of the WP:NOR guideline. Maybe something from The Wizard and the Witch: Seven Decades of Counterculture, Magick & Paganism, written by John C. Sulak, published by Llewellyn in 2014, ISBN 0738740519. Gail Salvador discusses her experience on at least nine pages of the book, along with many more pages of Morning Glory and Oberon. Binksternet (talk) 23:51, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Anything that is "encyclopedic" and documented by WP:RS can (and should) be added. Something like "frequently sees her daughter who lives an hour away in the East Bay" is not encyclopedic and I think is somewhat likely to be challenged. On the other hand, airing family "dirty laundry" like personal feuds or estrangements violates WP:ATP. Please don't added such detail. Finally, the text about her medical conditions must be removed. This is a violation medical privacy for a living person. I'll sit back a little to give the caretakers of this page a chance to clean it. Agricola44 (talk) 17:14, 21 February 2014 (UTC).
 * Your wish to remove reliably sourced text does not conform with any Wikipedia policy. Morning Glory's medical condition is widely known and discussed in the subculture she belongs to, the American pagan community. The Discovery Channel documentary talks about it, and both she and Oberon write about it. Regarding the trouble Morning Glory had in her relationships with her first husband and her daughter, the book I linked above has far more material about all that. The text currently in our biography is suitably cited to Guiley and Bonewits, but if anyone choose to expand the material with the new Sulak book, it will be even better. Binksternet (talk) 20:37, 21 February 2014 (UTC)