Talk:Morphogenesis

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This article needs some help
The first sentence in the article states that morphogenesis, differentiation and growth are the 3 essential aspects of development. Cell death and cell fate specification are not mentioned. Fate is not synonymous with differentiation. I am surprised to see the Bicoid gradient and A-P Drosophila polarity in this article. It is not an example of morphogenesis at all - this is an example of how different cell fates are specified based on position. All of the sections on the A-P/gradient/segmentation belong in an article on cell fate specification in a syncytium. Part of the confusion probably comes from the similarity of the words Morphogenesis (forming structure) and Morphogen (cell fate specifying molecule). The morphogenesis article should concentrate on cell migration, cell shape changes, structure formation, tube formation, cell aggregation, programmed cell death, tissue dispersion, cell adhesion, extracellular matrix... Dr d12 23:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC) == I cut the entire A-P patterning section and moved it into the "pattern formation" page. Dr d12 17:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

morphogenes
"Thes morphogenes (proteins that control morphogenesis) that determine the fate of cells are proteins that interact with DNA."

Can you provide a source that defines the use of the term "morphogene"?

I found this: "morphogenes (previously known as morphogenic genes)" but I'm not sure that "morphogenic genes" has a clear meaning either.

The term suggests "morphogenesis". There are many proteins besides DNA-binding proteins that control morphogenesis.

I assume that "the fate of cells" means their differentiation. Again, I agree that there are DNA binding proteins that "determine the fate of cells" but there are also other proteins that do not bind DNA and play roles in the control of differentiation. The control of morphogenesis by DNA-binding proteins is indirect: there must be other proteins that leave the nucleus and actually make things happen outside the nucleus.

Maybe it should be, "Many of the morphogenes (proteins that control morphogenesis) that determine the fate of cells are proteins that interact with DNA."

Morphogen

 * I think that this is a mis-understanding of the term "morphogen" (without the last E). I have never heard of a "morphogenE", and if anyone ever used that term it is bound to get confused with "morphogen" which is a common concept in developmental biology. As morphogenEs are defined here, they are a very broad category of genes. Morphogens are specific molecules. I think we should eliminate any reference to morphogenE and replace it with morphogen, which can be defined either as "a molecule that provides positional information to cells", or with a more strict definition of "a molecule that forms a concentration gradient within the developing organism, by which the local concentration provides positional information to cells." I'll have to do a little research to see which definition is accurate. AdamRetchless 18:08, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * It appears that the more limited definition of morphogen is correct. According to Fly Move, "A morphogen is a diffusible signal produced in one part of the body, which can determine cell fates according to its local concentration." AdamRetchless


 * I feel much better about "morphogen". I vote that the morphogenesis page not even mention "morphogene". From the Gilbert textbook: "Cell fates may be specified by neighboring cells, but cell fates can also be specified by specific amounts of soluble molecules secreted at a distance from the target cells. Such a soluble molecule is called a morphogen, and a morphogen may specify more than one cell type by forming a concentration gradient." JWSchmidt 21:46, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Morphogens are secreted signaling molecules that organize a field of surrounding cells into patterns. They form a gradient of concentration emanating from a localized source, and determine the arrangement and fate of responding cells according to the different concentration of the morphogen perceived by the cells. The idea of a morphogen gradient is intimately associated with the concept of positional information. A cell is believed to read its position in a concentration gradient of an extracellular signal factor, and to determine its developmental fate accordingly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.18.14.24 (talk) 23:35, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

relation of morphogenesis to other parts of developmental biology
The developmental biology page gives a standard description of the parts of developmental biology, "...developmental biology studies the genetic control of cell growth, differentiation and morphogenesis."

It may be confusing for the reader to follow the link to "morphogenesis" and find this: "Morphogenesis.....describes the process of cellular differentiation, distribution and growth....which gives rise to tissues, organs and anatomy."

This is how the Gilbert text describes morphogenesis: "The question of morphogenesis. Our differentiated cells are not randomly distributed. Rather, they are organized into intricate tissues and organs. These organs are arranged in a given way: the fingers are always at the tips of our hands, never in the middle; the eyes are always in our heads, not in our toes or gut. This creation of ordered form is called morphogenesis. How can the cells form such ordered structures?" JWSchmidt 01:21, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

the morphogenesis of the species Drosophila melanogaster
There is no such thing as the morphogenesis of a species. What is actually described for Drosophila melanogaster is some of the key features of one basic developmental process, the establishment of the polarized body plan along the anterior-posterior axis.

I suspect that nobody is really concerned with the Morphogenesis page. It needs to be completely re-worked.

Suggested main sections:

 * The role of the nucleus in the control of morphogenesis (could incorporate existing Drosophila example).
 * Morphogenesis and Cell Adhesion.
 * Morphogenesis during embryogenesis compared to metamorphosis and regeneration.
 * A specific organ example: Limb morphogenesis (or heart). JWSchmidt 15:16, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * This sounds good. I think there should be a section about axis-determination. I think this would be better than focusing on the role of the nucleus. This is what the Drosophila information is really about. AdamRetchless 18:00, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * There could be a section on axis formation in mice or birds or frogs or fish.

D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson
Shouldnt this D'Arcy Thompson's contribution to the topic not be mentioned ? Shyamal 10:25, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * From Gilbert's textbook: Mathematical Modeling of Development

embryology
would sympathtic editors consider a positive vote here? Slrubenstein  |  Talk 15:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Projective geometry
Why is there a link to Projective geometry in the article? Tbc2 12:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
 * at one time this was in the article: "More recently, Lawrence Edwards succeeded in applying the path curves of projective geometry to provide a rigorous mathematical description of biological forms such as eggs, buds and cones." --JWSchmidt 04:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Alan Turing
Three news reports saying that Alan Turing's theory of morphogenesis has been proven.    Anyone able to expand on that ? EdwardLane (talk) 13:06, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I think to say it is proven is an exaggeration. The model is useful and helps in rational thought about morphogenesis but Turgins model is insufficient to explain all aspects of morphogenesis.Bjorklund21 (talk) 00:12, 23 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Turing's is certainly only one mechanism among many. What is striking is that it was predicted correctly so long before experimental evidence became available, and by a non-biologist. Chiswick Chap (talk) 06:43, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Accurate referencing
After posting this comment, I will correct the citation for D'Arcy Wentworth Thompson's "On Growth and Form". The book cited is the abridged version, printed 2004, and first published 1961, and comprising some 349 pages, with an editor responsible for the abridgement. It is NOT the 1917 version. It is also not the unabridged version published by Dover in 1992, comprising 1116 pages.

The gold standard in referencing is that one cites sufficient information to be able track down the SPECIFIC publication being cited. One most certainly DOES NOT cite a given publication then reference a completely different version. For out of print, or reprinted publications of early books, this can get cumbersome, but this is in fact where the gold standard is most critical, and where dumbing things down is most unhelpful. Wotnow (talk) 13:40, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you Chiswick Chap, for your effort on the Thompson reference. You are right. The original publication date is a key point. I couldn't find the date in the publication details page of the preview, which is why I didn't mention it. I think it worth finding something to cite that gives us that date. I'll have a bit of a look and see what I can find, unless you or someone else finds something meantime. Cheers Wotnow (talk) 17:55, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

Morphogenesis, Morphogen, Morphogenetic field, Pattern formation: Expert needed
There are several articles which appear to form a cluster but with a) unclear relationships, and b) various states of undress - missing citations, over-technical explanations without decent introduction, and above all c) no proper co-ordination to give readers an overview either of the individual articles or of how to navigate among them.

I came to all this from Patterns in nature which touches on morphogenesis via its results. However the mechanisms are complicated and as yet poorly explained here in Wikipedia. We need a specialist to sort out the articles in this area. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:54, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit that I made
I removed the sentence about the "alternative hypotheses" of Albert Harris because it made no sense and had no citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.57.19.49 (talk) 00:43, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

And morphogenesis in plants?
More about morphogenesis in plants should be included. They provide more simple examples because, unlike animal cells, plant cells are restricted in movement about the organism by cellulose cell walls. Jonhorridge (talk) 20:55, 21 December 2016 (UTC)