Talk:Mossad assassinations following the Munich massacre

Article name.
Why is this article called "Operation Wrath of God" when the footnote acknowledges that this term does not appear in any official document, and almost every source that refers to this event refers to it as Operation Bayonet? Even searching for the Hebrew of the title name provides very few non-Wikipedia sources. --70.131.114.241 (talk) 07:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The term "Wrath of God" was created by so-called experts who wrote a book on Mossad over 30 years ago. Just like the article "Operation Entebbe" the name refering to the operation and the events was never known as such. And wikipedia being what it is keep perpetuating those errors. 121.216.156.160 (talk) 18:37, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
 * It's been 15 years since the above were written, an we still have the Israeli propaganda-name as name of the article. It is high time that it is changed. Suggestions? What about "Mossad's assassination campaign against Palestinian leaders after 1972 Munich massacre"? Huldra (talk) 23:11, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * A formal move request was never submitted so it got limited attention. I think there is a decent case to move it based on WP:MILMOS, though some might argue it is well known enough to merit naming by the operation. Same with Operation Entebbe. –CWenger ( ^ •  @ ) 23:25, 22 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Erm, so its actual name is Operation Bayonet? Let's just move it then. This is synth. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:22, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't know the history of the operation names, but I would object to a move to Operation Bayonet based on Ngrams. –CWenger ( ^ •  @ ) 14:45, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Why not try giving it a "neutral" name? Ok, so  "Mossad's assassination campaign against Palestinian leaders after  1972 Munich massacre" is long and cumbersome, any suggestion  to a shorter name? Huldra (talk) 23:43, 23 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Or shorter: Mossad revenge killings following the Munich massacre. This in line with things like Munich: Mossad's Revenge, and sources such as Striking Back: The 1972 Munich Olympics Massacre and Israel's Deadly Response, One Day in September: The Full Story of the 1972 Munich Olympics Massacre and the Israeli Revenge Operation "Wrath of God, Counterterrorism Through Retaliation. Mossad's Answer To Munich's Massacre and Between Vengeance and Retribution: A New View of the Mossad's Most Mysterious Operation. It also crops up in more empirical/analytical works such as Retaliating against Terrorism: Rational Expectations and the Optimality of Rules versus Discretion. Revenge/retaliation seems like the prevalent terminology. The parallel operation, "Spring of Youth", is at 1973 Israeli raid in Lebanon. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:01, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I think that has to be Mossad's revenge killings following the Munich massacre, in that case. What about even shorter: Mossad's  assassinations following the Munich massacre? Huldra (talk) 22:28, 2 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Assassination also works; it's actually the more prevalent terminology on the actual page, although I'm not convinced that the "apostrophe s" is required. I think it still works fine without. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:31, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Still unsure about a move in general, but of all the suggestions I would vote for Mossad assassinations following the Munich massacre. I agree with Iskandar323 that the apostrophe s is not necessary, and I think "revenge killings" sounds judgemental. "Assassinations" is more matter-of-fact without getting into the reasoning. –CWenger ( ^ •  @ ) 05:59, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, as English is my 4th language (not joking!) -I defer my judgement to yours; Mossad assassinations following the Munich massacre it is, then? Huldra (talk) 20:58, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Impressive, I had no idea! Yes, please go ahead and make an official move request. –CWenger ( ^ •  @ ) 21:27, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Not really; my parents were from 2 different contries, and each spoke their mother tongue to the children, while -due to geography- all radio and tv was in a third language. Anyway; I can move it, but I just want to be sure that we all agree, first, cheers, Huldra (talk) 21:58, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I would certainly go through the formal move request with a 7-day discussion period instead of just moving it. There's a decent chance somebody not seeing this discussion would want to voice an opinion once it's posted at WP:RM. –CWenger ( ^ •  @ ) 22:33, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, will do. Huldra (talk) 21:51, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 6 May 2023

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) C LYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please mention me on reply) 05:34, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Operation Wrath of God → Mossad assassinations following the Munich massacre – see above discussion Huldra (talk) 21:51, 6 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Support: per the above discussion, WP:MILMOS and WP:NDESC, and the need for a proper descriptive title that naturally and recognizably instructs readers on the nature of the topic with recognizable elements. Also, per the above discussion, the actual codename of the operation in English was Operation Bayonet, so the current title is not only not ideal per WP:MILMOS, but additionally a misnomer. "Wrath of God" is an English translation of the Hebrew codename, but not the English codename, so inaccurate. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:39, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Israel and Mossad?
The initial sentence ends with

"...directed by Israel and the Mossad to assassinate individuals alleged to have been directly or indirectly involved in the 1972 Munich massacre."

This wording looks strange as Israel is a country and Mossad a government agency, presumably acting on the orders given by the Israeli government. Would anyone mind if I amended the sentence?

Dean Armond 02:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Casualties
I note that theres no attempt to account the number of casualties caused in the article, either deliberate on both sides or innocent bystanders. WatcherZero (talk) 03:08, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Woman killed in Amsterdam
Although there is a source for this (which is Jonas' famous book Vengeance), there are no other historical evidences of that assassination. Not even in the Netherlands media of the time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.206.116.120 (talk) 11:34, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Of the two sources for this event, one leads to a dead website and other goes to a blog which does not cite any primary literature. This seems unreliable. --WintermuteKnows (talk) 03:14, 6 November 2020 (UTC)


 * There is also a Masters thesis but we don't generally consider them as reliable. I'm removing this until a better source can be found. Zerotalk 13:40, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Problems

 * The prose is very choppy, with lots of one- and two-sentence paragraphs.
 * Nearly half of the "Operations" section is "On [date], [event]". This sentence structure is repeated ad nauseam and begging for a copy edit.
 * Entire third paragraph of "Attempted assassination of Golda Meir in Rome" is unsourced.
 * Sports Illustrated is tagged as an unreliable source, but I don't see how it is.
 * "the cited resource was decommissioned in 2008 and TKB records were later adopted by START. However a search of the available records (via http://www.start.umd.edu/start/) failed to uncover the originally cited material." — major problem, suggest outright removing the source then.

If these problems are not tended to, the article will be sent to WP:FAR. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 02:23, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 March 2022
The article mentions the author of the book Striking Back, as Aaron Klein, and it has a hyperlink. It has the wrong hyperlink to the wrong person. The author of Striking Back is Aaron J. Klein (different person) not Aaron Klein. See Aaron J. Klein Wikipedia page. Beanlowry (talk) 05:40, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:46, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

black September assassination plot
In the "reactions" section, there is a whole story about foiled assassination attempt of golda meir when she visited romein 1973 to meet the pope, and the dramatic way the attempt was thwarted. Here is the problem:

-I could not find any information about this foiled attempt anywhere else (except couple of articles that copied wikipedia word to word)

-The links provided don't have the information anymore, and the articles that do open just talk about her visit and nothing about the foiled attempt.

If this really happened, can someone provide some reliable links that work?

If not then this foiled attempt information should be removed or should be mentioned that this is unconfirmed. 2600:1700:2E2F:C210:E10D:A760:1623:F3B1 (talk) 21:58, 25 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Sourcing could definitely be improved, but it looks like it's discussed in the book Blood and Rage: A Cultural History of Terrorism, as seen here, as well as this book (see the page 125 excerpt). –CWenger ( ^ •  @ ) 23:05, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, yes I do see it mentioned in the second book you referenced. Appreciate the reference! I still think this is just a claim or fiction and may not have happened the way described in the article. Here's why:
 * The story in Wikipedia article talks about lot of events that would have been easily observed by general public and some for sure would have been reported in the media. These include:
 * a. A gunfight with the first batch of terrorists
 * b. A foot chase and attempt to carjack another vehicle (supposedly driven by Mossad agent)
 * c. A cafe van with missiles protruding from the roof traveling in Rome
 * d. A crash between Mossad vehicle and the cafe van resulting in it turning
 * e. Multiple injuries that resulted in the terrorists being sent to Hospital.
 * Another issue with the story is:
 * f. After being released from Hospital, Italy just let the terrorists go back to Libya without any charges or imprisonment? That does not make sense either.


 * Unless these were a regular occurence in Rome in 1973, you would expect there would some media reports about these events. Not to mention that all these events occurred when the head of another state is about to land.


 * It is possible that there may have been a plot that was fortunately foiled, I do not believe it happened the way it is described in the article. I still suggest that the story should be presented just as a claim by the relevant author, and not as actual events. 2600:1700:2E2F:C210:575:BE80:8272:779B (talk) 00:45, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree, it does seem odd. Such a high-profile assassination attempt foiled so triumphantly, you'd think would have plenty of sources. However, it does seem to be in at least 3 books, so I think we need to reflect that. The section could be shortened considerably though. –CWenger ( ^ •  @ ) 03:08, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

References to Reeve need correction
This article's reference's cite "Reeve" extensively. However, the actual book by Reeve has accidentally been edited out. All the references are just to "Reeve " assuming the book by Simon Reeve is previously cited in more detail but he isn't.

This is the full correct Reeve citation:  Varenc (talk) 17:56, 26 May 2024 (UTC)