Talk:Mother's Mercy

SPOILER ALERT Interview with Kit Harington
SPOILER ALERT

Since there is some ambiguity about the fate of Jon Snow in the books and the serial, should this be in the article?

In an interview Kit Harington confirmed that his character, Jon Snow, is truly dead. Lucentcalendar (talk) 14:43, 15 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Although in the interview at the link you provided the actor does confirm that Jon Snow is dead, the viewers would have no way of knowing this from the ending of the show. I will be bold and remove the phrase "to death" from the picture in the infobox. If another editor chooses to revert this then no problem but please try to justify it here. MrErnieman (talk) 18:57, 16 June 2015 (UTC)


 * True, but the scope of these articles is not limited on the information from the episode. Lucentcalendar (talk) 13:37, 17 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, say that he's dead. Text such as "stab him and leave him to die in the snow" would probably be best because it at least leaves open the idea that he lived, but we are not required to blind ourselves to reliable out-of-universe information.
 * There was a similar issue a few weeks ago with Gray Worm and Barristan. Many people assumed that they were both dead.  All we had to do was wait a week.  That's not the case here. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:53, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Should we add that article somewhere under reception? Don't know if this would go well with it. Rayukk (talk) 12:06, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The issue of whether Jon Snow is alive or dead has been addressed in more than one reliable secondary source. I think it belongs in the article, but not necessarily under "critical reception." How about we add a new subsection to "reception" and call it "fan reception" or "viewer reception"?  Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:36, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Good idea. Rayukk (talk) 19:26, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * We're up with two four sources, but I'm starting to think the second half middle bit might really belong in the "Production" section. What do you think? Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:13, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I think it's great the way it is.. I think having that part (I'm assuming the quote from Weiss) in the production wouldn't fit as good as right now. But that's just one opinion. Rayukk (talk) 10:40, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Main Image
I know that the episode has been released now, and also Wikipedia (in the nicest way) doesn't about spoilers, but is the image of Jon Snow lying dead really the most appropriate one? I'm thinking for future fans of the series, either in a year or a decade. Can we please find another photograph to put on? Yes in the plot it will say he has died, but I am thinking for someone who might, and will click on the episode page innocently and see the character dead in the picture right there more obvious than the rest of the text at the top of the page.

Can we replace it with a new one? I know Wikipedia editors do have a kind heart in them. I am not asking to delete spoilers, as I know it has aired and technically no more spoilers, but in a nice gesture for people in the future who will innocently click on this page and see the in-your-face spoiler image?

Please take into consideration. Charlr6 (talk) 10:35, 17 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I get where you're coming from: We don't hide spoilers but we don't need to shove them in people's faces either. If you have a better image that's free to use, go ahead and insert it.  If you don't have a better image that's free to use, then the issue is moot. Darkfrog24 (talk) 13:54, 17 June 2015 (UTC)


 * How about an image of Cersei on her walk? Obviously one without nudity. It is quite a strong scene, and even though can also be spoilery it is something that has been pretty much a long time coming, and also obvious with the 'religion'. What you (and others if you are reading) think? Charlr6 (talk) 14:17, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Sounds fine to me. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:13, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Added on. Hope is fine? Charlr6 (talk) 23:01, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I like it and I think it's better than the Jon Snow pic. I notice it's been reverted.  I'll re-revert tomorrow if no further objections are posted on this talk page. Darkfrog24 (talk) 02:58, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Nudity
There has been a lot of discussion about nudity and body doubles: etc. --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 16:36, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * http://www.ew.com/article/2015/06/18/game-thrones-lena-headey-nude-double-van-cleave
 * http://www.eonline.com/news/668285/lena-headey-s-game-of-thrones-body-double-revealed-meet-the-woman-who-did-the-naked-walk-of-shame
 * http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/a35698/game-of-thrones-cersei-lannister-lena-headey-nude-walk/


 * Can be added under production, and some info about the controversy surrounding filming that scene. Charlr6 (talk) 17:42, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I added the section... if someone has anything to add, be my guest ;) --Rayukk (talk) 11:47, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Stannis' men
The sentence regarding Stannis' men deserting because of what he did to his daughter keeps getting taken out - I'm guessing for the reason that it's mostly inference. I therefore felt it necessary to come and argue a case for at least including it: if we weren't allowed to infer anything from their desertion, then by the same token we wouldn't be allowed to infer that Selyse's suicide was linked to the events of the previous episode. We saw two things in that scene - the soldiers looking visibly uncomfortable, angry and even horrified, and Selyse shouting and trying to stop the burning. If we don't then link their desertion and suicides, respectively, to the public sacrifice of the previous episode, then it looks a little like we are suggesting that they just felt like deserting, or that Selyse felt like killing herself There's more reason to keep it in rather than take it out, and I don't see what harm a little inference does in a context such as this. Grieferhate (talk) 15:23, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd definitely see this as an inference, though it is also clearly the show's intent. I think it's enough to tell the readers that the soldiers first looked horrified and then deserted that night, so long as the context makes it clear that these two things are connected.  You are right that we should not imply that they deserted for any other reason.  That would be worse.  I'm confident that we can work out a wording that does both these things. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:30, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The weather conditions at Stannis' (Stephen Dillane) camp improve drastically, clearing the route towards Winterfell. Melisandre (Carice van Houten) takes credit, claiming that the Red God has done this in response to the human sacrifice of Princess Shireen. However, Stannis quickly receives news that half his army, many of whom showed great discomfort during the sacrifice, have deserted.
 * This puts the two ideas right next to each other. Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:35, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a good way to phrase it. I'm thinking that if we substituted "great discomfort" for "horror and disgust," it would be perfect. Grieferhate (talk) 22:47, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't see "horror and disgust" when I watched the episode. That's probably too personal of an interpretation to put into the article, but "great discomfort" is not our only option. "...many of whom had reacted poorly..." "...some of whom had muttered angrily during..." Other suggestions? Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:35, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I was the one who objected to Grieferhate's wording, so I just add my opinion here. The clause "many of whom had reacted poorly during Shireen's sacrifice" is better but if it was just up to me, I would still delete it. It dos not serve much purpose, it sticks out of the plot description, and it is still an inference. We know that all sellswords deserted, and that they were half the army. That means the other half were not sellswords. We do not know whom we have seen watching the sacrifice but I would expect "sworn bannermen" near the fire, near the king etc., not the sellswords. And it was the captain who was chosen to show the disapproval (shook his head). Plus the sellswords could have left simply because they were finally able to, the snow being now melted. Just my opinion. --WikiHannibal (talk) 09:21, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Selyse—say she killed herself or say she was found dead?
Recently, two anonymous users (possibly the same person) have changed the "In the North" section to say that Selyse committed suicide. Here's why I don't think that the article should state this: It is also reasonably possible that some of Stannis's men killed her. She was, after all, quite zealous in her support of all Melisandre's actions, including the burning of her daughter, right up until the end.

However, I could be wrong. The episode itself doesn't show whether John Snow died or not either, but we have lots of out-of-universe sources that state outright that he's dead. Are there any similar sources that say Selyse killed herself? I haven't come across any, but I wasn't specifically looking for that information, so it's possible I missed it. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)


 * She hanged herself. Confirmed in HBO's show guide: "led to ... the suicide of his wife, Selyse". --Shivertimbers433 (talk) 02:48, 24 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I did not see that quote in that article. I accessed the article a three minutes ago and did not see it, and I looked at archived versions of the article; that quote was also not in Wayback Machine archives of it. Web address: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.polygon.com/2015/10/23/9602938/hbo-officially-declares-certain-game-of-thrones-character-is-dead-but --NoToleranceForIntolerance (talk) 02:16, 27 February 2018 (UTC)


 * It's in the image of the the book they link to in the article.--Shivertimbers433 (talk) 05:58, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

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