Talk:Mother of Fraternities

Dispute
A dispute was raised at WT:FRAT. Would both editors please add references supporting the claims that Union College and University of Miami are called the Mother of Fraternities. Only then can we evaluate whether there is a stronger claim for one over the other. If these editors are able to provide a variety of references that are too much for the article, then please place them on the talk page.--GrapedApe (talk) 11:30, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

References provided for Miami University.   The fact is neither Union College nor Miami University has a stronger claim of the title "Mother of Fraternities". It's merely a personal point of view about who does. There is no reference to point that out. Trying to argue which one has the stronger claim is original research. The article was fine the way it was before all this happened. 71.106.150.61 (talk) 04:07, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that those references are sufficiently reliable sources. See WP:RS.  The first link is from the Miami University itself, so that doesn't satisfy WP:SELFPUB.  The second appears to be a newspaper, but that document only repeats the University's claims ("The university bills itself as the “mother of fraternities,” with five Greek organizations founded at Miami."), so that also doesn't satisfy WP:RS.  The third appears to be some sort of blog, which also fails WP:RS. At best, these sources could be used to substantiate the statement that "University of Miami was the birthplace of a number of national fraternities and bills itself as the "Mother of Fraternities." --GrapedApe (talk) 04:20, 23 May 2011 (UTC)


 * That's the problem. Each university claims the moniker and bills itself as the "Mother of Fraternities". No outside sources gives that title. They only state what both universities claims. The moniker comes from respective self-publications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.150.61 (talk) 14:51, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Nope. There are LOTS of WP:RS, not self-pub sources indicating that Union is called the "Mother of Fraternities": .  A 2 second googlebooks search proves the point.  Unless you can provide WP:RS and not self-pub sources, the only mention of Miami will be something like this:
 * "Miami University, where Beta Theta Pi, Phi Delta Theta, Sigma Chi, Delta Zeta, and Phi Kappa Tau were founded, bills itself as the "Mother of Fraternities" .--GrapedApe (talk) 19:51, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Late to the discussion, but I just found 19th Century references to Union being called "The Mother of Fraternities", including a general reference book about fraternities and The New York Times. So I have confirmed that the name was in use for Union sometime before 1895 and really does appear to be the original campus connected to the name. Miami seems to have picked up the name in the early 20th century (see new content and sources added to the article). The Ohio Historical Society's historic marker about "Mother of Fraternities" is about Miami but also mentions Union, so there is not really a debate from that side about sharing the name. Rublamb (talk) 15:21, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Longville comparison
In early September 2021, an anonymous editor, whom we'll call Anon, deleted the sentence and reference that described the formation of four NPC sororities at Longwood University in Virginia, called the Farmville Four. It had been included in the article as a similar formation group as those at Miami University (the Miami Triad) and at Union College (the Union Triad). I reverted his/their edit, and surprisingly, Anon made the same edit. I've now reverted it a second time. In the latter instances Miami and Union have earned their respective colleges the title of Mother of Fraternities. For some reason, Anon explained his edit by saying that fraternities do not exist at Longwood... Well, yeah. But this is a non sequitur, and misses the point that the grouping of four sororities formed there is a similar historical event as occurred at the two places called the Mother of Fraternities.

Also, on the term "mother of fraternities", most of us understand that the majority of sororities are legally named as women's fraternities, formed before the term "sorority" was popularized.

Of course another solution, aside from having the Longwood sentence here in this article, is to write a separate article about the Farmville Four, which no one has yet done. These four sororities are solid members of the NPC, with hundreds of chapters and as valid a claim to importance as the six or eight fraternities formed at Miami and Union. The "Farmville Four" name is important to them, and to the college.

Besides, were there two separate articles, a reasonable editor may very well crosslink the two under a "See Also" header. Thus I don't see the point of burying the information about the Longwood grouping. I'll revert this again when I see it. Hopefully Anon understands that this kind of discussion ought to take place on the Talk page. Jax MN (talk) 00:23, 5 September 2021 (UTC)


 * After working to improve this article and finding needed sources, I wanted to let you know that I have decided to remove the section on Longwood. I like your idea and the connection you want to make. However, this section only has one source. The source does not include the term "Farmville Four" nor does it equate the women's fraternity/sorority cluster to the "mother of all fraternities" concept. It also only backs a small portion of the section. After doing some hunting, I did find one usable source that mentions the phrase "Farmville Farm"; however, it does not mention the "mother of fraternities/sororities" phrase or concept. Even the state historic sign for the Farmville Four does not reference the topic. Without a source, your connection of Longwood to this article falls under original research which is not allowed on Wikipedia. You can restore this content when you find an appropriate source. However, please note that this article is not about colleges noted for being the founding place for many Greek letter organizations, but about colleges that are actually called the "Mother of Fraternities". If you can find a source that talks about the "Mother of Sororities", I think this content would fit. Rublamb (talk) 02:13, 9 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Ah, that's too bad. The four sororities all refer to that term, Farmville Four, with pride.  I hadn't found a more appropriate article where this could have been included, as here it was germane to the topic as an offshoot term. We can let it go down the memory hole. Jax MN (talk) 06:19, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I found a source. Not great, but good enough to restore Longwood to the article. However, I have re-written the text and am still excluding the background section which was unsourced. Note that the Farmville Four is also included in the article on Triad, which is linked in the see also section of this article. Rublamb (talk) 14:39, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Jax MN (talk) 16:31, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Alpha is used incorrectly for Union College
"Several other early alpha chapters in the Greek system…were founded at Union as well." Of the fraternities mentioned, only Theta Delta Chi has an active chapter at Union College with the letter Alpha. They use the term "charge" for "chapter" but that's a particularity of Theta Delta Chi. As to the others: Psi Upsilon's chapter uses the letter Theta and has not been active since 2014, Chi Psi uses the letter Pi (but confusingly calls its chapters "alphas"), and Omicron Kappa Epsilon did use Alpha. 2601:283:8201:25F0:89A6:E806:39E2:198B (talk) 18:46, 3 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Anon, I added an EFN note to the offending paragraph. I trust this resolves your concern. Jax MN (talk) 19:08, 3 August 2023 (UTC)