Talk:Mount Holyoke College/Archive 1

Campus Acreage

 * eh, since when is MHC's campus 2,000 acres?? last i checked it was just over 800.  I won't change it until I get a precise figure, but I'm certain it's not 2,000 acres.


 * And yeah, anonymous poster, the campus is 800 acres. The 2000 acres may be referring to the complete property holdings of the college which include many faculty housing properties, The Orchards golf course, the shopping and dining complex across College Street, and most likely many more developed and undeveloped properties. The 2000 acre figure may be correct as well, in a larger sense.


 * MHC Campus TourCoolshoes 06:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC) (Mount Holyoke College graduate)

So is it alright if I make a quick edit just being more specific about the two different figures? --Xiu Xiu 12:10, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry, i was the anonymous poster about the campus acreage... you're probably right about both figures being correct, I always forget about the Orchards and the Village Commons etc etc. :) And sorry about the anonymous post, I was at work and hadn't logged in!


 * oh and actually, I guess there's even a house down rt 9 that is owned by mhc, it used to be a dorm back when my friend's great aunt was a student, it's called "The Sycamores" and now it's not used for anything.... also all of the on-campus/off-campus housing like silver street... it probably does add up to 2,000. but i think it's still important to note that for all intents and purposes the campus you'll experience when you get there is about 800 acres.  ;) --Xiu Xiu 12:17, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Most of these colleges and universities have large holdings of both stock and securities as well as property. I remember the protests to force MHC to divest itself of it's apartheid-era South African-related holdings back in the '80s, which they ultimately did, and started a trend amongst elite private colleges and universities to do the same. It's an interesting issue, and maybe worth noting in the article? Coolshoes 16:29, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Edit away, Xiu Xiu! :) Coolshoes 13:38, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Mount Holyoke was Founded in 1837
I know Mt. Holyoke Seminary was founded in 1837 by Mary Lyon, but when did it become a college? This needs to be addressed in the history -- currently it implies Mt. Holyoke College was founded in 1837, which of course it wasn't. (Semantics, perhaps, but Amherst College doesn't place its founding at 1814, the date of the opening of Amherst Academy, but to 1821, when it began admitting college students. You might even make an argument that Amherst wasn't a "college" until it was chartered as such in 1825.)

I am sensitive to this sort of thing because, for example, when Bradford College closed its doors in ~2000, it claimed to have been "founded" in 1803, when in reality it was "founded" in 1971. (There was a Bradford Academy from 1803 to the early 1900's, a Bradford Junior College from then until 1971, and only a Bradford College from 1971 onward.)

Could Phillips Academy become Phillips College tomorrow, and claim to have been founded in 1778? Would it immediately become the second oldest college in Massachusetts? What exactly is the "founding date" of a college? -Rjyanco 19:05, 31 May 2004 (UTC)


 * So... detailed information about MHC's founding, status and name changes had been included in the article, but were removed today by anonymous user 138.110.217.51 with no explanation. I have restored. If the info is inaccurate or otherwise inappropriate, then I hope the user with the objection will join us here to explain. —Bsktcase 23:53, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * My goodness, such hostility towards MHC here, hmmm? Coolshoes 06:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Don't be over-sensitive. Wikipedia isn't a love-in, it's an attempt to get the facts right.  -Rjyanco 14:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * It was just an idle comment. And anyway, it was you who had your facts wrong. --Xiu Xiu 15:26, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * What fact was wrong? -Rjyanco 17:59, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Rjyanco, your focus on this minor issue is silly, at best. And you didn't just try to clarify data, you were insinuating that the college is making a fraudulent statement about its founding date (" a college can claim anything"), so yeah, I do take umbrage. Coolshoes 16:29, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm going to preface this comment by noting that on May 31, 2004, when I wrote the initial comment, there was already information in the article that clarified the founding date. Shortly before that (e.g., 12 Apr 2004) the article began, "Founded in 1834, Mount Holyoke College..." and I must not have looked past that.


 * That said, I was not besmirching the lofty reputation of your alma mater. I just wanted (and want) an accurate article, which it now is, more or less, concerning dates.  [Scratch that:  I just checked and the article still says in the intro that MoHo was founded in 1837.  Not in an article called Mount Holyoke College it wasn't, unless you want to immediately clarify in the next sentence.]  The article still makes some unsourced assertions ("known for its strong science programs") but I'll let one of you clarify that, since I don't know one way or the other. -Rjyanco 20:33, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The facts were right, in the first place. Mount Holyoke was founded in 1837. I clarified matters further in the article. And I seem to be having no problems with Xiu Xiu. -- Coolshoes 16:29, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Xiu Xiu asked you for permission to fix an error in the article. How amazing that you don't have a problem with her. -Rjyanco 20:33, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Phillips Academy is high school level. Amherst Academy was high school level. Bradford College was the British equivalent of high school level until the early 1900s. Mount Holyoke Seminary was a college level, academic, three-year program in 1837. Coolshoes 06:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Clearly you're an expert on these things! Wow!  What exactly is the official definition of "college level", "high school level", and the "British equivalent of high school level"? -Rjyanco 14:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I did some basic research, and I am pointing out the reason why your initial comparisons of Phillips, Amherst and Bradford to Mount Holyoke were faulty and why your argument fell flat. You obviously weren't a philosophy major. Coolshoes 16:29, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Truly, I'd love if you could explain the evolution of "high school level," "British equivalent of high school level," and "college level" through the years. Amherst used to teach plane geometry in "college"; now it's a "high school" course.  Amherst used to require preparation in Greek and Latin prior to admission, so that was "high school" then and at best "college" now.  This flip-flopping of courses even at the same college (in my example, Amherst) over the years makes the high school/college line hazy at best for me, but you purport such expansive knowledge of the high school/college division in the 19th century (so that bandying about the terms is mere "pointing out") I hope you will share your vast knowledge with me.  And while yeah, I'm just calling bullshit here, I truly am interested in the evolution of the high school/college line in the nineteenth century if perchance I'm underestimating you.  Not that I think I am. -Rjyanco 20:33, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

From the Amherst College article: "...Amherst Academy, a secondary school which educated, among others, Emily Dickinson." (Italics mine.) Emily Dickinson attended Mount Holyoke Seminary in 1856-1857 after graduating from Amherst Academy.

After changing the program to four years, Mount Holyoke Seminary was granted collegiate status in 1888, a fact easily accessible at the MHC homepage:


 * The History of Mount Holyoke College

Thus rjyanco made an invalid comparison. Coolshoes 06:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * What comparison? All I said (over a year ago) is that a college can claim anything, but I wanted to see more information, which Bsktcase was nice to supply.  You might want to work on the reading comprehension, or at least not read so quickly.  We're all on the same team here. -Rjyanco 14:50, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Your reasoning was faulty. You were comparing apples and oranges and wondering why you came up with lemons. I did a little research (you might want to try that before questioning the validity of a claim) and supplied the information to clarify the issue on the proper founding date for the college. The point at issue is, regardless, minor and a waste of space on the article, regardless of your own stated "sensitivity" to the issue. Frankly, no one else really cares. And my reading comprehension is just fine. I did quite well at Mount Holyoke. Coolshoes 16:29, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Claiming that MoHo COLLEGE was founded in 1837 is patently false, so questioning the validity of any insinuation to that effect is appropriate. And you're right, at this point the issue is moot, and has been for about a year.  But I do enjoy your demostration of logic, MoHo-style.  Fruity. -Rjyanco 20:33, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The official Mount Holyoke College information is: Founded as a seminary in 1837 and a college in 1888, as is also states on the official college seal, a copy of which I will upload soon. The college, not the editors of this wikipedia page - alumnae or not -, have set the founding date of 1837. I will stand by it until they change the seal and celebrate a different founding date.


 * Bolding the words college and seminary in a previous edit? Proof positive that you have a bug lodged firmly up your ass. No facts, data, proof or demonstration of reasoning will convince you of the 1837 founding date, and all efforts at appeasement only ramp up your efforts, it is now clear. So it looks like all that remains is an edit war. If you want an edit war, an edit war it shall be.


 * I suggest rather than spending your seemingly far too empty free time editing the minutiae of other people's schools, you either get a life, obsess over the Bradford College founding date issue, or take up the issue with the administration of Mount Holyoke College itself. - Coolshoes 21:43, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * The Mount Holyoke College page does not exist to make Mount Holyoke alumnae (or its administration) happy. It exists to get the facts correct.  Your argument for the correctness of 1837 hinges on "Mount Holyoke Seminary was a college level, academic, three-year program in 1837."  If that is a correct statement, then as far as I'm concerned, 1837 is the right date.  It was notoriously hard to get a charter for a college in Massachusetts in the early nineteenth century, so perhaps the Mount Holyoke trustees decided not to pursue one.  But lacking evidence that this is the case -- particularly, lacking evidence that the three-year program was "college level," I'd say that 1888 is the right year to say that Mount Holyoke College came into existence.


 * Incidentally, the most telling sentence in your most recent responses is "The college... have [sic] set the founding date of 1837. I will stand by it until they change the seal and celebrate a different founding date." 1. You are saying outright that you don't care about the truth per se, only what the college tells you is the truth.  And that's silly.  2. I never explicitly compared Mount Holyoke to Bradford, but by your logic, because Bradford College had 1803 in their seal (actually, I'm guessing this, because it's been closed for five years and their alumni association doesn't show their logo), 1803 is their founding date, regardless.  There you would contradict yourself, because "Bradford College was the British equivalent of high school level until the early 1900s," hence by implication not a college.


 * Using the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine, I found that Bradford's homepage text was, "Founded as Bradford Academy in 1803, Bradford College is...." I'd be happy with that here, viz., "Founded as Mount Holyoke Female Seminary in 1837, Mount Holyoke College is...."


 * Anyhow, I won't immediately go to the edit war. But we need to hammer this out.  I added the link to Stowe, but I've not read it.  Can you find something in there that says or implies "college level"?  If so, I'll shut up.  If not, let's consider 1888 as the correct date. -Rjyanco 13:56, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * P.S. I guess the Wayback Machine saves images too! Here you go:  [[Image:Bradford_college.gif]]  We both know 1803 is wrong.  But if you were a Bradford alumna, would you "stand by [1803] until they change the seal and celebrate a different founding date"?  Or would you look past the hype? -Rjyanco 14:06, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Mea culpa. The Bradford College link a wikipedia sent me to Bradford College, England, which provides high school level - A-Level - instruction. Your Bradford College, in Massachusetts, closed in 2000. I'm sorry about that.

Given that Vassar, Barnard, Radcliffe (Harvard), Smith, Bryn Mawr, Wellesley, and even Wheaton (MA.) have not sought to dispute the well-known 1837 claim, how you can claim that you and wikipedia are the arbiter of this issue is beyond me. If you must pursue the issue, an online encyclopedia is not the appropriate place.

I have contacted the archives of Mount Holyoke to clarify the issue. Maybe they can answer to your satisfaction...bit somehow I doubt it. If you insist on pursuing the issue further, the appropriate places are:


 * The President of Mount Holyoke College, Joanne V. Creighton: jcreight@mtholyoke.edu
 * Librarian of the Mount Holyoke Archives: palbrigh@mtholyoke.edu,
 * MHC Archives: archives@mtholyoke.edu

You could also try to interest the other Seven Sisters in enlisting in your revolt, but I don't think they will be interested.

And as for your question: I would accept Bradford College's publicized founding date, accept that Bradford College has closed, move on with my life, and let the matter go. And let the matter of founding dates of others' alma maters go as well. Coolshoes 09:14, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Traditions & Songs section
Ok so I know MHC has TONS of very unique and special songs and traditions, and even the occasional legend. I added the drinking song - please someone add the alma mater if you know it! Also mayday, canoe sing, etc, should all get a mention! Cheers, --Xiu Xiu 15:57, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Founders Day does not occur on the same day as Convocation. It is in November on Mary Lyon's birthday.

Merging articles in
I tagged Mount Holyoke News and History of Mount Holyoke College to be merged in to Mount Holyoke College. I checked out what has been written at Wikiproject Universities and the discussion on the talk page suggested that sections of university articles should not have their own articles unless they are extremely long. See the articles on Yale University or Harvard University and you'll see that even they, with their extensive history sections do not require a separate article. I do agree, however, that List of Mount Holyoke College people is too extensive, so it requires its own article. Though a change in format could reduce the size and it might fit better into the main article, which would be preferred. -Rkitko 03:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Rkitko,


 * This makes a lot of sense and I will go about trying to merge Mount Holyoke News and History of Mount Holyoke College.


 * However, since most of the colleges and universities on the wikipedia have a separate page for the List of people, I do not think it is necessary to merge List of Mount Holyoke College people (see for example List of Dartmouth College people, List of Harvard University people). -- Classicfilms 28 June 2006


 * Looks great, Classicfilms. Thanks for doing that.  And I agree that List of Mount Holyoke College people deserves its own article since it is so large.  Perhaps something could be done to the list of majors, though, to avoid that long list?  Take a look at what I had done on the Lebanon Valley College article section.  Great work on everything you've done here! -Rkitko 05:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the suggestion Rkitko - I converted the majors section using your table - great idea! Thanks for the feedback, the page looks much better now. - Classicfilms 28 June 2006

m&c's??
I was pretty sure m&c's was short for milk and crackers originally, not milk and cookies....can anyone confirm it one or another?

Milk 'n' Crackers

 * In her 1977 play about MHC, Uncommon Women and Others, alumna Wendy Wasserstein referred to m&c's in the following manner:


 * Susie: That's right: it's your elf who's been leaving candy in your mail and napkin box, and all the other treats, and she'll fix you up on the weekend, and that's real neat. It's fun to see the girls at tea, and Milk 'n' Crackers too, and try to guess which one belongs to you...Fall teas are such fun when she brings apricot brandy. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, real yum! But Milk 'n' Crackers is neat too. (Act 1, Scene 5). -Classicfilms 03:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Linking to MHC News Articles
There are now shorter URLs for linking to news articles on the MHC site, removing all of the database tags (node, portal_id, etc.). The short link appears at the end of the article. -- Bdenneen 21:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Academics and Athletics
I expanded the Academics section and moved it to the top. Wikipedia article guidelines say "sections may be expanded, customized, or moved depending on need and type of institution." Because the article is about an educational institution, it is logical that information about academics come first.

Information about athletics was cut in a previous edit. I restored it with current information about MHC athletics. LowerLake (talk) 18:04, 22 July 2009 (UTC)LowerLake


 * Thanks for all the work you are doing on this article. Regarding the section order, college and university articles follow the article structure guidelines in WP:UNIGUIDE (the article you quoted).  This structure puts the history as the first section.  You will find that order on almost all educational institutions, and Mount Holyoke College should follow this structure, too.  Thanks, Alanraywiki (talk) 18:12, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Looking at a few other liberal art colleges (Smith, Dartmouth, Wellesley, Bates) I do not see that they are following the suggested structure in WP:UNIGUIDE exactly and in fact are putting Academics near the top of their articles. LowerLake (talk) 20:19, 22 July 2009 (UTC)LowerLake


 * Thank you for the heads up on those other articles. I'll check those out sometime in the future to bring some consistency among university articles by following the Wikiproject guidelines. Alanraywiki (talk) 20:52, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

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