Talk:Mountain Parkway Byway

Byway name and article naming
Merged former "Byway name" section (first comment) and "Article Naming" sections (successive ones) for clarity; split categories caused by improper deletion of first comment by User:SchoolcraftT and subsequent restoration of it - merged Brian Powell (talk) 19:16, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

As per the WV Department of Commerce at, the name of the byway is the Mountain Parkway Byway. Northern Webster County appears nowhere in the name. Please do not include it in the name in the article as this is incorrect. Brian Powell (talk) 23:28, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I've gotten a message a copule of weeks ago about the name of this article being wrong. The name is correct per the old Mountain Parkway website. So please don't move this page to just simply change the name. If you have any questions about this article, fell free to leave a message on my talk page. --Todd Schoolcraft 14:39, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You seem to have moved it to the correct name successfully. Also created a redirect, so anyone searching under the old name will be taken to this article.  All good stuff--Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:57, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Everything from the state and the signage on the route itself says Mountain Parkway Byway is the correct name. Considering it is the state who sets the name of the byway, I would assume they know what they are doing.  See  for examples from official sources of the correct name. Brian Powell (talk) 00:47, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You probably need to discuss this with Todd Schoolcraft. I meant that he had done the move technically correctly - I wouldn't actually know what the correct name is, although given that all the photos of signage say "Mountain parkway byway" I was surprised (but put it down to bureaucracy) that the 'proper' name was something else.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:51, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Elen of the Roads]] (talk) is right, but all of the local sings just says "Mountain Parkway" which includes both the byway and backway as seen in the one image in the article, and thats what it will be called for now own. As far as the content the information you provided is indeed incorrect. WC Route 20/2 is the Mount Zion Road,which is a near cut to the backway, not a spur. The Correct Spur is WC Rt 4 which leads to the Johnson Home. WC Route 20/13 (The Sharon Road) is a "Historic Route" and is also know as the "Old Cleveland Hacker Valley Road" which should be in there, but I didn't put it into the original article. All the Information in this article has been verified by both the DVD and my Mountain Parkway Talking Tour. If you want to re-verify any information that I put into the article, Ive got a good friend who know more about the Mountain Parkway than I do. If your interested in getting int o contact with him, just leave me a message at my talk page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SchoolcraftT (talk • contribs) 14:50, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Todd, what do you mean when you say "thats what it will be called for now own"? You left a comment my talk page saying that road is just "Mountain Parkway".  I'm confused about what exactly you are trying to say.  The sources I cited above, consistent with WVDOT usage on other scenic byways as well, indicate the main route along WV 20 is the "Mountain Parkway Byway" and the back routes are the "Mountain Parkway Backway."
 * You were the one who introduced the text saying that CR 20/2 is part of the Backway, although I see you did try to remove it in a revision that got lost when you undid everything else I had worked on. Please see the separate heading below for a further discussion of the Backway route.  CR 20/13, which you introduced in your more recent revisions as being part of the Backway, is not shown on the WV Department of Commerce map as such.  Your comments above lead me to believe that it is not technically part of the Backway.  Just being a "historic route" doesn't really make it appropriate for inclusion here since the article is about the Mountain Parkway Backway and Byway.
 * Just "knowing more about the Mountain Parkway" doesn't make something good enough to be included in the article. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia; material in it needs to be verifiable using cited sources.  Please read through WP:V and WP:OR for more information on including and citing information. Brian Powell (talk) 20:30, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Cleanup
I've had another little tidy up - just some broke wikilinks. Do I take it the entire article is based on that DVD? If so, it could do with some more sources, which I'm sure are fairly readily available. Additional sources should preferably be added as inline citations in the format of the two that I have done. I'm also not sure it should contain the service times and phone numbers of the churches (Wikipedia not being a directory) and in a couple of places it sounds like a travel brochure. Really good use of pictures though - this is the kind of article where you really start to appreciate Freedom of Panorama.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:57, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Think we're having a misunderstanding here. While it's not necessary to have sources for things that are common knowledge (cows give milk) or can be seen in plain sight (Lincoln Cathedral is on the top of a hill), details like the one about the supervisor stopping the road crew really needs a source to confirm it's not just a tale someone made up. Either the source is the DVD (which is what I thought you said) or it needs the tag leaving in thus, so hopefully someone will come along with the source for that - maybe a book about the area or some such. You can't just take the tag out and not put anything in its place - it's got to have either the tag or the reference. See WP:V and WP:RS for more information about facts, sources and citations.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:20, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Take a look at the first sentence now, tell me what you think. To conform to Wikipedia's Manual of Style it should reference the article title first, then the AKA. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 23:25, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Churches
Wikipedia is not a directory. A list of churches with contact information is unencyclopedic and not appropriate here. Brian Powell (talk) 01:36, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Backway Route
The WV Department of Commerce has a map of the Mountain Parkway Backway at. Judging by that map in combination with User:SchoolcraftT's comments, what is in the article now, and a WVDOT Webster County map, it appears the correct listing of routes for the Backway should be:
 * 1) CR 1 from WV 20 to CR 4.
 * 2) CR 4 from CR 1-CR 1/1 intersection to Johnson Home.
 * 3) CR 1/1 from CR 1-CR 4 intersection to CR 3.
 * 4) CR 3 from CR 1/1 to WV 20.
 * 5) CR 8 from CR 3 to Mollohan Mill near CR 8/4.
 * 6) CR 3/8 from CR 3 to Spicer's Orchard.
 * 7) CR 20/3 from CR 3 to the end of Panther Lick Run.

Is this list correct and agreeable to everyone? Brian Powell (talk) 20:10, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * It's not exactly clear is it (says she peering at the maps). It looks right, but I'll defer to anyone who actually knows the territory. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 21:34, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The only thing I see wrong  is  the where you  mention 20/3 Pather Run Road. Other than that everythings looks right. In the future lets just talk about any future changes to Mountain Parkway Byway so no more edit wars will occure. Todd Schoolcraft (talk) 23:08, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, what is the issue with CR 20/3? It is the spur shown heading east off CR 3 south of CR 20/3 on the Department of Commerce map. Brian Powell (talk) 23:15, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not exacly sure, but I think it end s up somewhere else. --Todd Schoolcraft (talk) 15:40, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * So you're saying that CR 20/3 is part of the Backway, but that its eastern end is at a different point? Going by the maps, it looked like the Backway portion ended roughly at the back of the hollow where the road starts to cross the ridge.  It looks like there is a large house near this point.   Is the house itself supposed to be the destination for the spur? Brian Powell (talk) 16:03, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * And as far as your question about Panther Run, it Dosent end at the house it gose to the left and continues south. --Todd Schoolcraft (talk) 16:44, 22 January 2010 (UTC) Copied from User_talk:Bmpowell on Brian Powell (talk) 19:24, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I am aware that CR 20/3 continues over the ridge to the east after the end of Panther Lick Run creek. On the Commerce map, it appears that the portion of CR 20/3 designated as part of Mountain Parkway Byway ends at this point.
 * Can you write a complete statement about what you believe the starting point and endpoint point of the portion of CR 20/3 designated as part of Mountain Parkway Byway are? That's what I'm trying to get at with my questions. Brian Powell (talk) 19:24, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It started about 9 ft form Cr 20/13.It used to go into the Replete Road (CR 3), but the road has been washed away, and that the case for most of the other spurs besides County Rt3 3/8, 8, 1/1,1 and 4. Todd Schoolcraft (talk)  <
 * For now, I have left both CR 20/2 and CR 20/3 off the list since they seem to be in dispute. Brian Powell (talk) 04:22, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The 32 mile distance given for the Backway is inaccurate according to Google Maps. Even including some additional distance because of GMaps limitations and assuming CR 20/2 is on the route, we're still at 30.1 miles. See  . 23:53, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Corrections
I'm assembling a list of corrections to make to the article. Brian Powell (talk) 22:28, 21 January 2010 (UTC)


 * User:SchoolcraftT posted this to my talk page: I happened tom catch a misstake on your version of my origonal article. where you have "Webster County Route 6 from the Biggs Mill Stone to the Johnson Home" Its Boggs Mill not Biggs Mill. - Brian Powell (talk) 22:28, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Dates
I've have a exact date for when the Molohan Mill was enter into the Nat'l Registar of historic Places. It was done on September 2, 1982. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SchoolcraftT (talk • contribs) 01:50, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Heading for Mountain Parkway Backway
I'd like to have a heading for Mountain Parkway Backway in this article so that Mountain Parkway Backway can redirect specifically to that section. Brian Powell (talk) 03:43, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Introduction paragraph
I've rewritten the introductory paragraph for the Byway and will be doing so for the Backway to help include some of the features that make the route notable. Just saying that the Byway is WV 20 between Cleveland and Hodam Mountain tells the reader nothing of why the Byway was designated or what makes it important (or even worthy of a Wikipedia article). Brian Powell (talk) 04:10, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * My Sources Donsen't go into great detail about the physical features of the Byway itsef so it a not somthing that needs to be int there in my opinion, but it might be a good stand alone.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by SchoolcraftT (talk • contribs) 05:04, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Additions
The following Subpage witll address any new changes to th Article 'Mountain Parkway Byway Please make any changes there, and please don't marke it to be deleted.

--Todd Schoolcraft (talk) 18:05, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Mountain Parkway Byway/Workpage


 * Why do we need another page? These items can be discussed here on the main Talk Page. Brian Powell (talk) 18:09, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ths was what I had in mind when I said "two version of the same article". --Todd Schoolcraft (talk) 18:27, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Still, let's just talk through changes here on the Talk Page rather than creating other alternative versions. Brian Powell (talk) 18:59, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

List of changes
I'm going to try to my best ipression of Dr Frankenstin I'm go t to go back to one of my old edits and add the information we have to what I had when I first created the article last June, the information you gy=uys had given me will be there in some form or another.

Tahnk you

--Todd Schoolcraft (talk) 18:38, 25 January 2010 (UTC)


 * PLEASE DON'T DO THAT!!!! That's how it got banjaxed last time.  You can only edit the current version of the article, you can't go back to an old version, start editing that, and expect it to come out right.  For goodness sake, will you STOP.NOW
 * Good. Having stopped, will you please now say HERE ON THIS PAGE, not on any other place, WHAT CHANGES YOU WANT TO MAKE.  I doubt anyone is going to object to your changes, the problem is your actions are causing chaos.--Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:55, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * You Blew tha t of of context, what I met by that is I'm goint to take a little of this little of that and incoperate some thing that wern't in the origonal, but keep what we had talked about in it, and my old edits are the most factulay correct, which provides a good base to edit on --Todd Schoolcraft (talk) 22:27, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Todd, if you cannot provide verifiable sources for your information, then it should not be included. We no way of knowing if your material was the most "factulay correct." Rather than adding more uncited information, how about you help to find citations for what is already in the article. Brian Powell (talk) 00:03, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Page move
I noticed earlier today that User:SchoolcraftT had tagged this article to be moved to Mountain Parkway and then deleted the tag. I asked him about it on his talk page and he replied on mine this afternoon that he had no intentions of moving the page. (See .) Less than an hour later, he moves the page without discussion. What is going on here? Brian Powell (talk) 19:17, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Not again!!! He is trying to restore the article to an older version, so he can edit that instead of the existing article. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:40, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I had thought about it, but thought better of it Todd Schoolcraft (talk) 22:27, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Then would you care to explain what you were trying to do with the page move you performed? Brian Powell (talk) 00:08, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

William Damute Berry
Where is this homeplace located? Just saying a little way up from the church (what church) doesn't tell anyone anything. Why is it notable? What references exist to verify any information about Mr. Berry? Brian Powell (talk) 19:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

History of Cleveland
The history of Cleveland, West Virginia does not belong in this article. It belongs in the Cleveland, West Virginia article, where I moved it previously. Brian Powell (talk) 19:34, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Hacker Valley Grade School
Hacker Valley Grade School isn't particularly notable for the discussion of this article. It's a new school, so it is not as if it has any historical relevance. It's not anything a tourist is going to be interested in seeing; beyond that, the school probably would not want any tourists or outside visitors anyhow. It should be removed from the article. Brian Powell (talk) 23:23, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

CR 20/13
Where is this "historic route" of CR 20/13 coming from? This is the first time SchoolcraftT has mentioned it and is not supported by any citations as being part of the route of the Backway or Byway. Looking at the WVDOT Webster County map, I'm not even seeing which road this is supposed to be. Brian Powell (talk) 23:55, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Its marked as 20/1 --Todd Schoolcraft (talk) 00:37,Link title 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, well if it is marked as CR 20/1 then it would be CR 20/1, right? You've still provided no citations to verify that it is signed as part of the Backway or Byway.  On Google Maps Street View where CR 20/1 intersects WV 20, I see no signage indicating it as part of the Byway/Backway.  Brian Powell (talk) 00:41, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * It was marked as 20/1 and the DVD had Called it that as well, however a few years ago the DOT change the route number. The mape you provided me was an older map. All the other rts on Rt20 stayed the same. 20/1 AND 20/13 are one and the same That change was to reflect the change in the route noumber.
 * The Department of Commerce map doesn't show CR 20/13 or whatever as being part of the Backway or Byway. Google Maps Street View linked above is also showing no signage at its intersection with WV 20 indicating it is part of the Backway or Byway.  The Talking Tour audio clips you had uploaded at  and  don't discuss it as being part either.  To me, all indications would seem to be that the road is not actually part of the Backway or Byway.
 * That pretty much makes the argument about what the road is numbering moot, but I do want to point out that the map I provided is dated July 2007 and is the current one that DOH has available on their website. In order to renumber the road, DOH would have had to do a Commissioner's Order and looking at the information available on their website from 2007 through late 2009, plus ones that are pending, I'm not seeing anything listed.  WVDOH rarely renumbers roads to begin with anyway. Brian Powell (talk) 00:14, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

User:SchoolcraftT also began a discussion of this topic at. Brian Powell (talk) 20:03, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Minor Factual Errors
I'm in the process of fixing some factual erros, please don't edit to avoid edit conflicts, and so the informaion gets fixed.

Thank you --Todd Schoolcraft (talk) 00:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * How about you discuss these issues here before you edit. Brian Powell (talk) 00:21, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Route distances
From Cleveland to the intersection of WV 20 and Hodam Creek Road is 9.5 miles according to Google Maps. I don't know where this 10.4-mile distance User:SchoolcraftT is claiming comes from. The 32-mile distance he is listing for the Backway also appears inaccurate. Even including some additional distance because of GMaps limitations and assuming CR 20/2 is on the route, we're still at 30.1 miles. See. Brian Powell (talk) 00:34, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Google maps isn't the most accurate thing on the web I used it and it gave me 33 miles --Todd Schoolcraft (talk) 16:57, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * 33 miles still isn't the 32 miles you're claiming. Would you care to provide a citation for either the 32 mile or 33 mile figures?  I provided cites for mine.  Remember what was discussed at ? Brian Powell (talk) 20:35, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * There seems to be an error at the very least in the length of the Byway - this source gives it as 10.4 miles while it is listed here as 9.8 miles. Another relevant source can be found here. --Nerd1a4i (talk) 17:40, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
 * This has been addressed below. The 9.8-mile distance listed for the Byway is correct per Google Maps, Bing Maps, and USGS topographic maps. The maps are more reliable sources than those websites. Bitmapped (talk) 20:09, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Edit request
mark for speedy deletion —Preceding unsigned comment added by SchoolcraftT (talk • contribs) 11:07, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. On what basis would you delete this article? Brian Jason Drake 11:28, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * There are no speedy deletion criteria that this article could be deleted under. Ged  UK  11:30, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Edit request
speedy deletion G7 —Preceding unsigned comment added by SchoolcraftT (talk • contribs) 13:01, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * G7 only applies if you are essentially the only contributor to the aticle and the talk page. This article has progressed well beyond that.  Your contributions are appreciated, but please see WP:ownership of articles.  --  Tom N (tcncv) talk/contrib 17:20, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

speedy deletion A10 —Preceding unsigned comment added by SchoolcraftT (talk • contribs) 18:04, 30 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I said earlier there's NO speedy deletion criteria that applies. The only way this could be deleted is via AfD, and that won't happen. Ged  UK  18:11, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Alternative version of article?
FYI. User:SchoolcraftT seems to be preparing an alternative version of this article at User:SchoolcraftT/Mountain Parkway. I've asked on his talk page what his intent is, but if I had to venture a guess it would be that he intends to replace the existing content with his version once the page protection expires. His subpage version has a number of issues with WP:GUIDE including using Wikipedia as a commercial directory and questionable citations based on a DVD that doesn't turn up anywhere in a Google search. Brian Powell (talk) 20:49, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Reference: "Treasure Within the Mountains (The Mountain Parkway)"
I have concerns about using "Treasure Within the Mountains (The Mountain Parkway). DVD. Gauley Productions, 2005" as a reference for this article. I tried searching for the title of the DVD and Gauley Productions in Google. The only hits I got back were basically this article. I also tried searching for the name "Gauley Productions" in the West Virginia Secretary of State's registered business database at. (I'm assuming that with the video being about a WV topic and the company being named after a major WV river, it is based in WV.) The Secretary of State's database returned no results.

I question whether this is an actual published DVD that a user has any chance of being able to locate to verify information included in this article. Brian Powell (talk) 20:54, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The place to get informed opinion on this is the reliable sources noticeboard. Ged  UK  21:11, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I was originally waiting to see if I got any response back here but just went ahead and posted on RSN at Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. Brian Powell (talk) 22:02, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I used the DVD to verrify all of the information in the article, and I happen to own a copy of it. --Todd Schoolcraft (talk) 23:43, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The question at this point is not whether or not the content appears in the DVD, it is whether the DVD is produced under auspices that have a reputation for fact checking and reliability that are necessary for the DVD to be used as a source at all. See: WP:RS. MM207.69.139.142 (talk) 05:08, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Cleveland United Methodist Church and McCray Rocks
Since these sites are along CR 20/1 (on maps; SchoolcraftT claims is CR 20/13) and not on any road listed in one of the cites as being part of the Byway or Backway, I'm going to strip them from the article. The article needs to focus on places along the Backway or Byway. Brian Powell (talk) 16:08, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Johnson lawsuit
While it has nothing directly related to this article, Mr. John N. Johnson of Johnson Home aparently went to the WV State Supreme court of appeals in an interesting case about whether the logs he sold should have been measured round or squared off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.139.142 (talk) 06:17, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

How long is the backway
A sock of Todd Schoolcraft just changed the length of the backway to 32 miles. Someone reverted, but it looks on the map to be longer than the figure reverted to. Anyone got a source as to how long it is? Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:08, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The figure there now is what I worked out via Google Maps and have linked as a reference. It is accurate for the main Backway segment.  There are a couple spurs what you have to double-back to return to the Backway; these are not included. Bitmapped (talk) 22:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Byway name and article naming (update)
The namming of the article is inaccurate. The WV Dept of commerce has the name as Mountain Parkway Byway and Backway, Not Mountain Parkway Byway. The Article needs to be re-nammed acordingly. Wv26228 (talk) 09:35, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
 * We've been through this discussion already. Bitmapped (talk) 04:21, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * See http://www.wvcommerce.org/travel/gettinghere/wvbyways/littlekanawha.aspx Wv26228 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:43, 6 December 2015 (UTC)
 * This article was cited in the previous discussion. I'm the one who originally posted it. It indicates there are two related routes, the Mountain Parkway Byway and the Mountain Parkway Backway.
 * Also, aren't you the indefinitely banned Todd Schoolcraft, User:Wv26228? You shouldn't be editing at all. Bitmapped (talk) 14:00, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Update 2
All of the WV Dept of Commerce information povide with respect to the namming of this article no longer exists. The correct and official name is Mountain Parkway per the official website. it should be re-named acoring to this new information, not what was discussed preveous. 184.15.55.25 (talk) 18:46, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * This issue has been extensively discussed previously. There is nothing official to indicate the names have changed from Mountain Parkway Byway and Mountain Parkway Backway. WV Department of Commerce apparently took down its page as part of a website redesign; an archive of the page is available at . Webster County's tourism website continues to list the Mountain Parkway Byway name . Bitmapped (talk) 19:14, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The name hasen't changed, true, but it is just Mountain Parkway, and its been that way since August of 1999.

184.15.42.151 (talk) 08:32, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * in addition there was no indication of a change from Mountain Parkway to Mountain Parkway Byway. The signage is a standard wvdot road signg with the official name on it which in this case is Mountain Parkway.184.15.42.151 (talk) 10:15, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Mountain Parkway versus Mountain Parkway Byway was discussed years ago . By your logic, the Mountain Parkway Backway is also just named Mountain Parkway since the bottom part of the sign says "Mountain Parkway." Bitmapped (talk) 16:45, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Correct termini
Does anyone have a definite answer for the correct termini of the Mountain Parkway Byway? The 10.4-mile length given by the Northern Webster County Improvement Council does not match the actual 9.8-mile distance  between the currently listed termini of WV 20 at Hodam Creek Road and WV 20 at Upshur/Webster line. Either way the NWCIC website is wrong, as it gives both the listed termini and the distance. Bitmapped (talk) 17:01, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * For the record, both Bing Maps and Google Maps [] show the same 9.8-mile distance so it is not that Google Maps is inaccurate as SchoolcraftT previously claimed with the Backway . Bitmapped (talk) 17:04, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I have driven the road for years and there is no way that road is that short. The information in the article is correct and Goggle maps is indead inaccurate.184.15.36.44 (talk) 10:05, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I also provided a link for Bing Maps, which shows the same distance as Google Maps. Google Maps and Bing Maps are widely used tools used by hundreds of millions of people. There is a much greater chance they are accurate than your uncited belief. Bitmapped (talk) 15:21, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Measuring the distances using the government-issued USGS Hacker Valley and Goshen topographic quads also gives 9.8 miles. The quads are available for download at . It's quite clear that the 9.8-mile figure from the maps is accurate and the NWCIC figure is not. Bitmapped (talk) 15:37, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It appears that the 9.8 mile figure is accurate, so I've updated the article with that figure. Tom29739 [ talk ] 19:31, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Official website
I question if is actually an official website for the Mountain Parkway Byway and Mountain Parkway Backway. It's clearly by a local organization, but byways and backways are designated by WVDOT. I would expect an official website to be by them or another government agency rather than a private organization. As I noted above, the Northern Webster County Improvement Council website has contradictory information regarding termini and distances which makes me question its authenticity. This site shouldn't be listed as an official website unless it demonstrably is. Bitmapped (talk) 19:31, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
 * All the information in the arcile matches or is a close match to all of the sources. 184.15.36.44 (talk) 09:57, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The distance is clearly wrong compared to other verifiable sources (Google Maps, Bing Maps). You haven't shown that it is, in fact, an official website. Bitmapped (talk) 15:26, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It doesn't seem to be an official website, but it says in the website footer that it is "Sponsored by WV DoT, Div. of Highways, Northern Webster County Improvement Council, Inc. This site funded in part by Federal Highway Administration's National Scenic Byway Program.". However, when looking at the WHOIS record for the site, it seems that they are using their registrar's privacy service, which is unusual for organisations and companies. When searching for the "Northern Webster County Improvement Council", I find a Facebook page for it and lots of self-made information about the Mountain Parkway Byway and Backway. It wouldn't surprise me if SchoolcraftT has written and is running the website themselves. Tom29739 [ talk ] 19:49, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Its was writen by a third party. 184.15.37.232 (talk) 08:39, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Correct Terminus (Update) and source credibitly issues
I would like to clear some thing about this article that have been addressed: 1) The correct termini of the byways is a) the Upshur /Webster County line at Cleveland and B the jct of WV 20 and Hodam Creek Road just as stated in the article and as listesd in the Mointain Parkway Website( but reversed).

2) The credabity of Google maps as a source is in question because of issues with distances. The distance varies too great to be used as a reliable source, as much as .6 mile. The Webster Co Tourism Website has it as over ten miles which is consistent with whats in the article. The Mountain Parkway Website has the distances as 10.4 miles which is exactly what's in the article. 3)The credibility of www.wvmoutnainparkway as a official site is NOT in question. It is sponsored by the West Virginia Dept of Transportaion, Div. of Highways, Northern Webster County Improvement Council, Inc and funded in part by Federal Highway Administration's National Scenic Byway Program.

This should clear up any concerns these issues may have addressed. 184.15.36.44 (talk) 10:30, 4 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Why do you believe the NWCIC website is more likely to be correct than Google Maps? Also, I am questioning the credibility of the NWCIC website given its seemingly inaccurate distances compared to other readily verifiable sources.Bitmapped (talk) 15:25, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * One word Manipulated 184.15.160.234 (talk) 17:14, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 4 January 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Consensus was not there for any retitle or move for the page. --  Dane talk  07:24, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Mountain Parkway Byway → ? – (I know there have been disputes over the article's name in the past, and I don't want to restart them). The article talks about two roads: *Mountain Parkway Byway* and *Mountain Parkway Backway*. These names have been set by the state (WVDOT). However, as the article talks about both, the name should reflect that, rather than giving the impression that it only talks about one of the roads, *Mountain Parkway Byway*. There are several names that could be used, which is why I've left the template at "?" rather than proposing one specific name. Tom29739 [ talk ] 20:09, 4 January 2017 (UTC) --Relisting. --  Dane talk  22:25, 11 January 2017 (UTC)
 * One such name could be something along the lines of *Mountain Parkway Byway and Backway*, which reflects the article better than the current name. Tom29739 [ talk ] 20:14, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * As it's two roadways, splitting to two articles seem to make the most sense. Waggie (talk) 21:00, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I could go either way on this on renaming as Tom29739 suggested versus splitting. WVDOT treats the Backways as children of the Byways in that Backways always have an associated Byway parent. There is some overlap from that, but there is enough independent content that the two could be split into their own articles. Splitting is probably cleaner. Bitmapped (talk) 21:48, 4 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose—I'd leave the title as it is now, per Bitmapped's comments above about the relationship between a backway and a byway. I see this relationship as similar to M-553 (Michigan highway) and M-554 (Michigan highway), and I'd use the smaller infobox in an article section devoted to the backway as a "related route". M-554 used to have an independent article that was listed as a Good Article, which is why that situation came to mind first, but there are many other cases where related highways are merged into a parent as a section with infobox road small. In this case, there isn't that much prose to warrant a split; things only look longer because all of the photos and white space.  Imzadi 1979  →  15:50, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose per lack of clearly researched recommendation. Dicklyon (talk) 03:09, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It isn't a good idea to leave the title as is because it only implies that the article talks about only the byway. Had it been a stand alone then it would have been different, but as written it needs to be changed. The tile needs to describe the whole, not just the parts. As for the "opposition per lack of clearly research recommendation" the sources for which this recommendation is based on are the West Virginia Byways an Byways guide (https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By4qQpcJVkyyN19FYXYyMGdsa2c) and the Mountain Parkway Website (www.wvmountainparkway.info). 184.15.62.225 (talk) 15:43, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
 * As far as the name, Mountain Parkway would be a better name than Mountain Parkway Byway and Backway. 184.15.62.225 (talk)
 * Except, in the example above, the "M-553" title does not describe "M-554", in which the latter was merged to the former as a related highway to create a single article.  Imzadi 1979  →   21:52, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The Mountain Parkway name is already used for a better known highway in Kentucky, so this article couldn't be moved to Mountain Parkway anyway. There would have to be a disambiguation page which would make things more confusing for users. Bitmapped (talk) 22:12, 13 January 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Semi-protected edit request on 19 April 2017
Please Change "Intersection of WV 20 and Hodam Creek Road (CR 20/18)" to "foot of Hodam Mountain at the Intersection of WV 20 and Hodam Creek Road (CR 20/18) and 9.8 to 10.4 base upon new information that was researched (www.wvmountainparkway.info). "The Byway is a 10.4-mile section of West Virginia State Route 20, extending from the foot of Hodam Mountain, at the junction of Hodam Creek Road (Webster County Route 20/8) to the Upshur/Webster County line, just north of Cleveland." Also the weblink to the google maps refrence needs to be changed to https://www.google.com/maps/dir/38.7304946,-80.3875667/38.6245621,-80.3898137/@38.6256777,-80.3996982,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!4m1!3e0184.14.210.146 (talk) 08:49, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * In addition the curent revision was as the result of vandalism because there are no credible sources stating that the byway is 9.8 miles long despite the earlier claims from other users. 184.14.210.146 (talk) 11:37, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Declined. The Google Maps link and distance from 182.14.210.146's edit request do not correspond with the description of the route as starting at the intersection of WV 20 and Hodam Creek Road. The distance and citations in place now reflect the listed termini. Bitmapped (talk) 15:04, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The informaion dose corespond to the article exactly, enevthough the information provided is backwards(Northbound on WV 20 instead of southbound) from whats in the article.184.14.210.146 (talk) 15:31, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The text in the Wikipedia article indicates the southern termini as being at the intersection of WV 20 and Hodam Creek Road. The website you cite lists the "junction of Hodam Creek Road" (and WV 20) as one of the termini, so I'm puzzled why you advocate measuring distance from an arbitrary point south of there on the Hodam Mountain grade rather than from at the intersection itself. Bitmapped (talk) 15:40, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Its also confirned that the distance according to the article dose not correspond to the actual WVDOT mile markers which puzzles me in the fact that the 9.8 miles only covers to the Pickens Road (Left Fork Holly River Road) Even with the termini as is the milege was correct at 10.4, regardless of what the milege google maps is.184.15.254.71 (talk) 17:02, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
 * WVDOH mile markers are only placed every 1.0 miles and at county lines on surface routes, when they're present at all. I question how you're using the mile markers to determine distances in fractions of a mile when the markers aren't posted that frequently. Bitmapped (talk) 20:38, 3 May 2017 (UTC)