Talk:Move America Forward/Archive 1

Hmmmn. Interesting stuff.... Move America forward? By restricting the first amendment? (RE: Farenheit 9/11) By ditching that tired old saw "Give me your weak, your tired, your poor"... These guys are some patriotic aren't they? I hope they don't get any mainstream media support, though with the PR machine behind them, who knows? Thanks for posting the info/warning. Posthocergopropterhoc 02:57, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Removal of "blatantly political" line
Per the MFA website I see reason to doubt that coffee distribution was the sole non-partisan activity.
 * Organized the largest network of pro-troops rallies, "Believe in Freedom -- 9/11 We Will Never Forget" on the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. The rallies were held in cities throughout the country with the largest events taking place in New York City, San Francisco, Sacramento, Indianapolis and San Diego.
 * Partnered with 8-year old Adam Johns of Roseville, California to launch "Operation Fuzzy Wuzzy" -- we collected over 5000 teddy bears from Americans and then sent them to the children who survived the horrific terrorist attack at the school in Beslan, Russia.
 * Sent $1.9 Million worth of medical supplies & equipment to Iraq
 * Collected and sent $2.8 Million worth of pharmaceutical supplies to Afghanistan & Iraq
 * Sent crates of clothing and stuffed animals to the children of Afghanistan -- to be distributed by members of the U.S. Armed Forces.

If you have evidence they didn't do these things, then you would be correct. There are some other problems with the language you used. "...restricting the distribution of the film Fahrenheit 911..." By that, you are referring to the organization publishing the contact information for those it identified as movie executives with an article pleaing for them to write, phone, and fax? Doesn't that happen quite a bit? Rkevins82 05:35, 10 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm not so sure, the teddy bears were wearing "Vote Bush" buttons; Johns is now slated as Rove's replacement. The medical supplies sent to Iraq consisted of 15 shipping containers of Tylenol; each bottle features an impish G.W. saying "Sorry for the headaches." ;-)


 * The items you list were not featured prominently on the MAF site at the time the article was written. Only after digging through the MAF blog archive and the internet archive (archive.org) that was I able find these items during April. We should remain circumspect about the main thrust of MAF's activities; an objective read of their site and blog indicates its activities remain wholly political and partisan and shows that they treat their humanitarian work as merely a useful adjunct. Touting it serves a PR function, while conducting it is an opportunity for team- and coalition- building. FeloniousMonk 17:30, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

non sequitur

 * Thank you for all your efforts to be factual and non-political. Good job. That being said, I am concerned about the first line of the last paragraph, 'The non sequitur of supporting ...' comes close to crossing the line, but you all are dong such a good job, I will leave you to get on it. Paul, in Saudi 15:15, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I reworked the line about non sequiturs - though I'm not sure it is any good. Rkevins82 03:22, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I've reworded it to note that there's a seeming disparity between MAF's mission statement and their actions, and that was what Siobhan Guiney was being asked to clarify. FeloniousMonk 21:14, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Strong POV
The language of this article seems to be strongly POV.


 * It's NPOV. Take a look at the Move America Forward website:. Because Move America Forward uses such strong rhetoric and unsubtle tactics, any accurate and honest description of it is bound to reflect that. FeloniousMonk 16:34, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
 * So, the purpose of this article to inform, or to make a point? The existence of this article shows bias and POV... stop pretending, this article was obviously started for the sole purpose of criticising this organisation. You have strong feelings about this organisation-- which makes you a very poor candidate to write an accurate, unbiased article about it. 172.160.151.73 17:58, 24 December 2005 (UTC)


 * The article sure seems NPOV to me. I'm removing the neutrality warning. If someone wants to restore it, please offer a specific reason why on the Talk page. Or better, just fix the offending part of the article, so it can be made truly neutral, if you honestly believe it isn't. --John Callender 07:02, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

POV, UNSUBSTANTIATED ATTACKS, ALLEGATIONS OF CRIMINAL CONDUCT
Not only was the language strongly POV (and I've even left some of it in despite its lack of substantiation at times - to represent what opponents of MAF think) but it makes allegations of criminal wrongdoing.

That places Wikipedia and its owners criminally liable which is not allowed on Wikipedia.

Move America Forward is a 501c3 organization, recognized by the IRS. No challenge to the organization's status has been launched by the IRS. The organization is in good standing and has properly filed its annual 990s and registration statement with the California Secretary of State.

It has not run campaign commercials, nor made any statements for or against any political candidates. Some editors here at Wikipedia falsely made such claims. It would be illegal for Move America Forward to do so. But more importantly, it hasn't happened and one cannot make such an allegation of criminal conduct without at least a citation of proof or evidence.


 * Hmmm, shouting and legal threats? Your rewrite of article is a whitewash that belies your motives. Where does the article say MAF has run campaign commercials? What specific objections do you have? FeloniousMonk 17:53, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is the listing to the organization's IRS Form 990 as a 501c3 organization:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/docs/moveamericaforward2004990/

I listed that from TPM since it is generally regarded as a left-of-center website which I know is in line with your political orientation based on your history of comments here at Wikipedia.

You are making POV attacks on the group. You cannot do that at Wikipedia. I would ask that you please do not vandalize this entry again unless you can substantiate the POV attacks you have made.

Removed Copy That Had Bogus Citation or Expired Link
Additional controversy erupted in August 2005 centered around Move America Forward's "You Don't Speak for Me, Cindy!" campaign countering the protest of Cindy Sheehan. Observers and the press have noted that some pro-Bush activists in the MAF entourage were aggressively confrontational and verbally abusive, calling the anti-war protesters "communists", saying they are "aiding and abetting the enemy".

Yahoo says the article never existed, or it previously existed but was no longer indexed in their search engine. It has thus been removed.


 * Right. I've restored it. It took less than 1 minute to find an alternate source. Why the rush to remove the content? FeloniousMonk 17:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

No, the link you provided does not substantiate your POV posting. It did not call the organization "aggressively confrontational" or "verbally abusive." It was actually a fairly positive portrayal of the organization. Can you provide another link?


 * I remember you now, . Please do not start up with the partisan campaigning again here; the result will not be any different. FeloniousMonk 18:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

You've taken the factual corrections made to this listing and turned it once again into a political attack on the organization. This has been protested by other users in this discussion thread previously.

Vandalism & False and Libelous Citations by Wikipedia Administrator
I just want to make sure this complaint is again on record. It would help you to at least pretend this wasn't a POV smear against a pro-troop non-profit group if you even made the slightest effort to just post what was verifiable, let alone true.

How many times have I taken out the blatantly false citation that Move America Forward was involved in the campaign to Recall Governor Gray Davis. The recall took place before MAF was even formed. To accuse the organization of being involved in a political campaign would again accuse it of illegal conduct. Again, you cannot do that here at Wikipedia.

A political action group is regulated by the FEC. Move America Forward is a 501c3 organization as recognized by the IRS.

The content cited by FeloniousMonk exposes Wikipedia to legal action. That's not anyone making a threat, it is the reason that this subject matter is being edited. Please don't misunderstand the difference, and please respect my edits by removing false content and also including material that is positive on Move America Forward and verifiable that FeloniousMonk has repeatedly removed.

I trust a fair editor/Administrator would not pretend it is OK to vandalize material because they may happen to have an ideological dislike for the content?

Thank you for your efforts to prevent Wikipedia from being abused as a forum for individual administrators to engage in POV abuse.


 * Hmmm, more legal threats, even after being warned: The content is properly sourced and cited. Your objections are baseless and part of your self-serving campaign: your IP resolves to Russo Marsh + Rogers, and Russo Marsh + Rogers share the same office as Move America Forward, . Meaning you are violating WP:AUTO and have no business editing this article directly. This is what got you blocked at Howard Kaloogian in April, and will not stand here. FeloniousMonk 19:54, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You falsely accused an organization of committing a crime. I don't think you are allowed to do that at Wikipedia, FeloniousMonk.


 * And exactly where and how have I done that? FeloniousMonk 20:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Let's start the list, shall we?!

"Prominent Move America Forward campaigns have included lobbying and various media advertisements calling for the recall of former California governor Gray Davis," - not only is this false (I've already posted this above - Move America Forward did not even exist at the time of the Recall Gray Davis campaign). It is ILLEGAL for a 501c3 non-profit organization to be directly involved in a political campaign. You have been cautioned on this several times. Your response was to continue to repost the false and libelous information.

"Though Move American Forward describes itself as "...a non-partisan, not-for-profit organization committed to supporting America’s efforts to defeat terrorism and supporting the brave men and women of our Armed Forces" [5], its actions have been almost wholly partisan, concentrating on the furtherance of the Bush administration's policies and appointees, and hence restricted to mostly the political arena."

BZZT - Wrong again. You even tried to cover for yourself by posting the Capitol Weekly story that cited the fact that the organizations follows the letter of the law. An organization such as Move America Forward CANNOT engage in "almost wholly partisan" conduct or else it is committing a crime.

You were chastized on this before and you whitewashed the corrected version again. You seem to prefer your POV to verifiable information. Would you like citations to the groups criticisms of various Republicans and praise of certain Democrats? I can make it easy for you by citing 2 Move America Forward television ads on their website which you linked to in your protests about my right to edit here at Wikipedia. One contains an ad praising Joseph Lieberman and the other praises former President Bill Clinton.


 * For a MAF representative, you seem to be coming up short on the facts. Let's take a look at them:
 * MAF was founded by Sal Russo, Howard Kaloogian and Melanie Morgan. Sal Russo was the chief strategist for the Recall Gray Davis Committee, where Kaloogian served as chairman. Sal Russo's consulting firm, Russo Marsh & Rogers, consulted for the Recall Gray Davis campaign, and in November 2003, one month after the recall election, the Daily News of Los Angeles interviewed Russo who said "We took on the political establishment and won, and they feel empowered," said Russo of the 120,000 recall supporters in his database. "They want to be involved. . . . We'll change the name to something like 'Move America Forward,'" and go national, he predicted. A week later, the Web site address MoveAmericaForward.com was registered to Russo's Russo Marsh & Rogers.  So what we have is the Recall Gray Davis Committee being renamed Move America Forward, still run by Kaloogian and Russo, within weeks of it accomplishing it's goal. The same people, new name.
 * Take a look at he MAF's "Ad Campaign" page, and watch some of the ads. All on subjects dear to the current administration and the right wing. Look at MAF's "Daily File" page Observe at the language there: "Tired of the constant bashing of America from the shamelessly liberal media and left-wing politicians?" Now explain to us how MAF is not partisan again.
 * Your edits are clearly an attempt to whitewash that your organization arose out the partisan Recall Gray Davis Committee and remains partisan and controversial. FeloniousMonk 21:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

--- MAF is releasing an "October Surprise" tomorrow (I have seen the information already) that is blatantly pro-Republican...