Talk:Mr. Satan/Archive 2

Archive
Archived page --DesireCampbell 08:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Duly reverted. Why did you do this in the midst of heated discussion? Duja ►
 * Zscout370 asked to, and did, close the poll after 6 days. He made a decision based on the latest poll (6 to 10, in favour of "Mr. Satan") and discussion to move the page to Mr. Satan.
 * Besides that, the page itself is long, and is nothing more than the same 'discussion' repeated ad nauseum. "Hercule is more common, Mr. Satan is correct." There was no action on the poll, the discussion section had stagnated, and the only current topic was that seeking outside help. And an admin that did not participate in the discussion or poll came in and did just that.
 * I would suggest leaving the page at Mr. Satan and, if necessary, bringing the matter up as a change to 'Hercule'. Anyone who's been around for the previous debates will be able to go back to the archive to see it, and anyone new comming to the page won't be bombarded with 75 kB of crap. --DesireCampbell 09:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I second that notion. This page is one huge debate on the name change. Actually I think the last Archived page and probably the page before that is pretty much the same argument.Onikage725 22:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * OK. It wasn't apparent that it was Zscout370 that closed the poll and moved the page; I came to close the RM and saw the page away from the original title, moveprotected and talk page archived so I thought it was someone "salting" an unilateral move or like. Sorry for misunderstanding, I'll archive it now. Duja ► 08:57, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't know the poll was closed until after the page had moved :p So don't feel bad. Your actions here to get the disscussion back is exactly what should have been done - I should have exaplained why I was archiving it. -- DesireCampbell 14:18, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

French and Portuguese dubs
A piece of info over his name in the french and Portuguese dubs, they dubbed him Hercule mainly because another character had already been renamed Satan, Piccolo on the french and portuguese dub was known as Satan's Heart Junior (petite coeur de satan Coraçãozinho de satan) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.193.230.234 (talk • contribs).


 * Thanks! I'll add the Portuguese thing in now. --DesireCampbell 16:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Can I get a translation for "Coraçãozinho"? Does it mean 'little heart'? I don't know Portuguese, but I do know that Coração is heart. I'd just like to double cjeck with someone who actually knows the language before it gets added.
 * Similarly, I'd appriciate a native French speaker giving their thoughts on "Satan petit couer". I know it litterally means 'Satan little heart' but I'm not sure about possession (should be "Petit couer de Satan" for 'Satan's little heart') but perhaps this is a collocualism for "junior"? I don't know, I'm not French. --DesireCampbell 16:53, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * "Petit coeur de Satan" looks correct to me, but then again... I never really paid that close of attention in grade school... or high school... or university... How did I pass all those French classes, anyway? :-D  It translates to "small heart of Satan". –Gunslinger47 22:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I speak portugues. "Coraçãozinho" mean "little heart". PL(DB) 01:41, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * In French, it's not "Petit coeur de Satan", but "Satan petit coeur".

Usage of word "censored"
"Censored" seems to be too strong of a word to use - Almost POVish in this case. I prefer "edited" WhisperToMe 02:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"Cencored" is not POV. There are several English dubs. Any that have "edited" content specifically because that content was concidered offensive is "censored". That's the definition of "censorship". --DesireCampbell 03:17, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with WhisperToMe regarding the strength of the word "censored". Though it might be literally accurate, it'll make the reader think of Censorship, a term that carries a generally negative connotation.  –Gunslinger47 05:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

True, using the word 'cencored' may lead the reader to believe that these versions of Dragon Ball have been altered from the original version in order to take out what may be considered offensive. Of course that's absolutely true, so I fail to see the problem. --DesireCampbell 13:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I put a note about how his name wasn't altered in uncensored FUNimation releases. That should address potential POV issues. Onikage725 14:53, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Manga
Now I'm not that familiar with One Piece except for the main character Loofy, the boy that streches, but can anyone shed some information on this wierd crossover. I couldn't even find it on on the list of fictional crossovers. Anyone? PL(DB) 16:29, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * He gathers the Dragon Balls and wishes to become king of an island in a crossover with One Piece. This makes everyone on the island happy.


 * Oda and Toriyama did a 'crossover' special called "Cross epoch" released this past Christmas (Dec 25, 2006). In it Mr Satan does indeed gather the dragon balls and wish to be come king. I don't know much else though, sorry. --DesireCampbell 14:56, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool. I didn't know that. Thanks! (Me | The Article) 20:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Possible POV
Regarding a name change in the European version of "Dragon Ball Z / Dragon Ball Z: Budokai"
 * "This doesn't seem to come from any other source, but does make a good deal of sense, since it could be used to explain why he can be referred to as either "Hercule" or "Mr. Satan." "

Seems a bit POV, to me, specifically the part about "makes a good deal of sense" he "he can be referred to as either".

I don't have the European version, so I can't check if he's referred to, in game, as both "Hercule" and "Satan". If he is, then adding the line back in as "''This would explain why he is referred to as either "Hercule" or "Mr. Satan."'' " would be appropriate, but I'd still be opposed to the "makes sense" line as it seems to lend credibility to "Hercule".

Thoughts? --DesireCampbell 19:09, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Removing it seems fine-- SU IT  42 19:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Speaking of removing stuff, should the "moveprotected" tag be removed too? I mean, is it really necessary there since the page can't be moved anyway? Power level (Dragon Ball) 00:25, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I took out the tag since it seemed uneeded. I don't see any reason why it should have been there at all. Grandpa Gohan didn't have one so he shouldn't neither. Power level (Dragon Ball) 03:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Good call. The page has been here for a while without complaint. I wouldn't expect anyone to move it without discussion anyway. --DesireCampbell 04:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The name
I've noticed that the article says almost nothing about Mr. Satan's original name. What I read is that in the US translation he was renamed "Hercule". However, in the article the reason of Mr. Satan to be named like this does not appear. I think more emphasis for this should be made.

Analyzing all, the most possible reason for the creators of the series to name this character with this special name is the connection to the biblical Satan. While this does appear in the article, nothing more appears.

A lot of things in the Dragon Ball series about Satan, Satanism, and its signs are present. For example, this character, Mr. Satan, is one of the world's most strong person. This could be a reference from the creators to say that Satan itself is very powerful, making the creators "satanic".

Another thing, the city is called Satan City, after Satan (obviously). Mr. Satan's daughter's name, Videl, is an anagram of Devil (obviously, again). The series, now I see, have a lot of satanic issues. But why Wikipedia says nothing about this? It should mention something.

I've written this because I see that, apparently, no one has noticed this satanic signs in the series. There are a lot more, and if I start listing them, I won't probably end. So, it would be good that at least 'something' is written in the article about this, and not ignore this.

That out of the way, I expect some comments, here or in my talk page. Oh, by the way, I've added Mr. Satan and Satan City references to the Satan in popular culture. It is time for us to include Dragon Ball in Satan's article, since I see nothing about it in those.

--Wanna Know My Name? Later 21:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? Ignoring the fact that, in this series, Hercule is shown as being extremely weak compared to most of the main characters, I'm pretty sure that the naming of the character isn't Satanic; saying in the article that it is would be original research. Of course Videl is an anagram of devil; this is a reference to her father's name. Dragon Ball uses a lot of puns in character naming. Voretus 15:25, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm fairly certain that Toriyama isn't a Satanist. I'm also fairly certain that the concept of Satan won't mean the same thing to the Japanese as it might to us. The chances are that Toriyama wasn't trying to make a point, or worship Satan, or anything like that. He just liked the name for the character.Retlor 19:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Mr. Satan has as much to do with Lucifer as Kakkarot has to do with carrots. :) –Gunslinger47 23:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, you all guys, apparently you DO think that Mr. Satan has nothing to do with the Biblical Satan. Ok. But you've forgotten some things.


 * What about this stuff: In Dragon Ball, there are the elements Satan City, Satan Tower, Satan Theatre, etc. Everything, yes, about Satan. Also, in the season of Dragon Ball when Gohan is grown up and Videl (=Devil) appears, in the presentation of that season, Gohan and Videl appear in a car with the big number "666" (the number of the Beast) in the car.


 * So why does the "Satan" name appears a lot, and that 666...? For me, it's no coincidence. I'm just telling it. If not, somebody in the series would notice that Mr. Satan and Satan City have the same name, but nobody says nothing about it... Well, that's suspicious. -Wanna Know My Name? Later 23:51, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * People in the series do notice that they have the same name... Satan City is named after the character; it was called South City, I think, then renamed. These are all just naming jokes, just like Kakarot, Piccolo, Vegeta, etc. are named after foods. Voretus 16:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well Piccolo is named after an strument, but that just further strengthens your point. Onikage725

I read somewhere a couple years back that Mr. Toriyama named him Mr. Satan because he was a liar. Not sure if that was true or not, but as some of you said before, he'd definately not a satanist and he does use puns. Plus, I also read that Mr. Satan's is just a stage name and not his real name (his real name is never mentioned). I don't remember where I read it though.Ryu Ematsu


 * That's a good info you give there, however, you don't say anything about that 666 in the car.


 * You probably are right guys, but you know, if everything is called "Satan", anyone could think that those things are satanic. Wanna Know My Name? Later 18:56, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Only someone unfamiliar with Dragonball and the character would think that. Starone 21:36, 22 May 2007 (UTC)