Talk:Muş

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zazaki dialect speakers are kurds ! boycot wikipedia!
zazaki are kurds —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.182.41.250 (talk) 11:27, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

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Armenian name
Why is the Armenian name of the town included? These have been Turkish and Kurdish lands for a thousand years. Articles on Greek islands that were Turkish territory a hundred years ago are not allowing Turkish names to be included! Double standards seem to be at play. Someone explain it otherwise logically please. Dominator1071 (talk) 23:14, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Please don't duplicate comments like this on multiple pages. But since you are doing this, I will copy my answer from Talk:Van, Turkey:
 * As a general rule, Ottoman names should be given for former parts of the Ottoman Empire now part of Greece, as for example in Chania, Crete, Lesbos, Giannitsa, etc.
 * If you could point out Greek places where the Ottoman place name is "not allowed to be included", please let me know.
 * Similarly, areas which have had important Armenian populations in the past should include the Armenian name. --Macrakis (talk) 13:35, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

1927 census
I cannot find data from the 1927 census. If someone has it please let me know :) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:38, 17 September 2023 (UTC)


 * On page 280 it gives you the numbers for all of the districts 1927 (type in 21.486 in the search box):. Semsûrî (talk) 14:17, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Amazing, thanks! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:18, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * No problem but isn't it more appropriate to add this info at the districts' pages? Semsûrî (talk) 14:26, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes that's an issue. I don't know if the borders are identical, though. Same for the kaza. So this discussion led me to choose the city, which is the "constant". The vilayet, sancak, kaza, district, provinces, ilçe, whatever you call them fluctuate in terms of name and border depending on the political power of the time. It would be good to have everything on one page. Otherwise we would have Ottoman population on the villayet page, census data on the modern district page, and probably nothing for the city proper as data often includes the surrounding villages at least. What do you think? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:33, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't have a strong opinion on it, especially if the borders fluctuate over time. If they were constant I would have argued that the info should be moved to the district pages. Semsûrî (talk) 14:44, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Semsûrî I agree. In any case I think the most important (and the hardest job...) is to have the information somewhere on Wikipedia. Then anyone can easily copy/paste it to move it to another page, should the community decide on another organization in the future. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:47, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi @Semsûrî, I tried to use your link but couldn't find the 1927 census data for some districts such as Erzurum, Midyat, and Lice (among many others). Do you have any idea of where I could find them? Thanks for any help you can provide. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:39, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I've found some_
 * Midyat and the other districts in Mardin are listed here on page 305 and 306
 * Maden here on page 308 and 309.
 * Bingöl (Çapakçur), Genç on page 466 and 467.
 * I haven't been able to find the actual 1927 census results online, so all you can do now is find them one by one. Semsûrî (talk) 12:49, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot. I'm surprised by the Mardin and Midyat results. Who are the "Diğer Dinler"? Doesn't make much sense. In other publications about the 1927 the various Christian denominations were detailed. Many "Diğer" are Assyrians? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:44, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
 * FYI: I asked the question here and just after found a potential answer... a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:10, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * There were 6,438/6,812 Syriac speakers in the province in 1927 per Tan's "Turabidin'den Berriye'ye. Aşiretler - Dinler - Diller - Kültürler" page 531 Semsûrî (talk) 08:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * For the 'other religions', I can only imagine that it is Christians as the number is high in Midyat but Tan doesn't have better numbers for it. Semsûrî (talk) 08:28, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Amazing, that's exactly what we needed: for Midyat your source gives for Syriac speakers 2589+2696 = 5,285. That's exactly the number of "Other languages" in the other source. For religion I can imagine that Syriac didn't want to be classified as "Armenian", "Greek", or "Protestant" and maybe answered "Other"? Or maybe it's like for the Syriac language: it's actually recorded in the census but most publications don't show it. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:30, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * In 1927, there was a box for Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, 'Armenian' and 'Christian'. Other numbers that I have found for the province are:
 * - 1,634 Catholics
 * - 157 Protestants
 * - 1 Orthodox
 * - 118 Armenian
 * - 3,601 "Christian"
 * But there were still 9,521 who ticked other religion here
 * I don't know how useful they are for you. Semsûrî (talk) 08:45, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot! And there are also 1,660 "Unknown". My pure guess is that many Syriac ticked "Other religion". Yazidi as well. It's still a very large number of "Other/Unknown" compared to other provinces and I'm surprised that it's not commented in these papers. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:01, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I was annoyed by the lack of a common source for the 1927 census so I decided to pay someone to do it (here). I asked them to collect religion & language but if you're interested in other things in the 1927 census let me know and I'll see if I can ask them to add that to the table. If it works, I'll make the data publicly available as a CSV on GitHub, citing all the sources (ideally). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 12:23, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I think I found the detailed results:
 * Umumî Nüfus Tahriri FASÎKÜL I
 * Umumî Nüfus Tahriri FASÎKÜL II
 * Umumî Nüfus Tahriri FASÎKÜL III
 * It's just so slow to load, but it looks like there's everything, all the kaza, all the data. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 10:50, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Semsûrî Hi, it took time but here are the results of the 1927 census in a machine-readable format for all kazas:
 * Languages
 * Religions
 * a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 19:43, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Church transformed into mosque?
The Armenian Wikipedia says (using Google Translate): 2 Muslim mosques (one used to be an Armenian church) (same on the Western Armenian Wikipedia: hyw:Մուշ). A Turkish friend told me that according to some local traditions it may be the case indeed. I can't find sources. The Esenlik mosque looks like an Orthodox church to me: photo, website. tr:Muş Ulu Camii also says Mimari özellikleri açısından incelendiğinde, eski bir yapının üzerine inşa edilmiş yeni bir yapının bulunduğu görülebilmektedir. and its architecture is quite unique (photo 1, photo 2). Have you heard about this @Vartolu3566 by any chance? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 20:52, 4 October 2023 (UTC)


 * If the Armenians say it, it is true. They were natives of Muş. And they know the history of the city very well Vartolu3566 (talk) 21:13, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It's probably true but... which one? And do we have a reliable source confirming it? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 21:26, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I found one. See Vartolu3566 (talk) 21:35, 4 October 2023 (UTC)