Talk:Muay Thai/Archive 1

Untitled
I don't think so, because, it's like describing how to bat in both the softball and baseball articles. I just noticed though that they both do. I'm not gonna put any time in writing a section about punching, but if you want to, be bold!--NoNo 16:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Would anyone object if I lowercased the m in muay Thai? I don't see any reason for it. Markalexander100 03:02, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have altered the definition of ajarn because it is incorrect. Ajarn is the term used for upper level teachers (post secondary). I suppose it can also be used as Master but it is not specific to Muay Thai

Thanks

Done. Markalexander100 06:25, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * I object. Muay Thai should be capitalized for the same reasons that Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and Greco-Roman Wrestling are capitalized. Patiwat 22:08, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I think that the description of Muay Thai as an especially versatile, brutal straightforward martial art is a bit subjective. In what way is Muay Thai more brutal than other martial arts? Why not just remove this word that seems to have more to do with assumptions than fact?
 * I agree, straightforward is proven I guess but should be stated in that the training usually comprehend only a small number of techniques, but it's not more versatile than any other martial art or in any way more brutal. It's all in the eye of the beholder I guess.--84.217.121.68 08:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The versatile aspect comes the incorporation of standup grappling with striking, something rarely seen in other tradition MAs such as kickboxing, karate, TKD, etc. The addition of elbows and knees certain adds to the versatility of Muay Thai, allowing it to be effectively used at not only punching range, kicking range, but also clinching range.

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Conditioning?
The conditioning regimen in Muay Thai is legendary for its intensity and rigour. Its focus is on hardening the eight anatomical weapons in the Muay Thai arsenal to an incredible degree, so much so that getting hit with a shin kick from a Muay Thai fighter is often likened to being hit by a baseball bat.

A commonly yet mistakenly held belief is that Muay Thai training includes special exercises for hardening shins and other body parts. In reality, Muay Thai training does not include any special hardening exercises in addition to heavy bag training.

^ so assuming the second paragraph in the Conditioning section is true, I am deleting the first one because it is contradicted by the second

There is the condition regime myth of kicking trees, which I have heard many times. The most reliable reason for this was that it was actually done by kicking banana trees, which are actually not that hard. Please Please don't anyone go kicking an Oak, it will hurt. Kicking and blocking kicks are about all the conditioning that is done. Again, the idea that Thai Boxers kick walls as a pre-fight warm up is another invention of the film Kickboxer. Damn that Van Dam.

I've seen pictures of old-style muay thais kicking banan trees. Kicking on anything else than a heavy bag, um..banan tree or focus mits will hurt your bones. And you.--84.217.124.111 20:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Muay Thai myths?
Would it be a good idea to include section to dispell some myths about Muay Thai training? One constantly bumbs into quite wild ideas, i.e. the hardening of shins or other body parts.

Unfortunately, this is not quite true. I have slammed my shins onto the training pads, sandbags and (with some care) smooth-barked trees. Whilst my trainer may not be up to the world-class champion training grade, he is otherwise compentent and a decent fellow. I am not a professional grade boxer, just a enthusiastic amateur. There are some Thai boxers who do harden their shins; it just that it's not emphasised by the majority of the training camps. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.202.183.66 (talk • contribs) date.

While I completely agree that there are Thai boxers who intentionally harden their shins, this is not common practice* nor is it included in what you might call traditional muay thai -training. The obvious reason for the lack of special shin hardening exercises is that there is no need for them: normal training with pads and heavy bags will do the trick.

One "old-school" method/exercise did have to do with kicking a tree, as told by Ajarn Mike Miles (3 time professional world champion (62W/6L/2D) and a long time student of Ajarn Panya Kraitus, the author of one of the books mentioned in the same article) about his time training in Thailand was that he was instructed to practice kicking a small tree that had been felled, sharpened at its base much like a pencil and propped upright. The exercise was to keep the tree from falling down by kicking it on the side that is starting to fall. While some tolerance for discomfort and fatigue is obviously nessesary the real point of the exercize is not simply to kick something big and hard but to have to be thinking about where to kick it while doing so and not getting much rest. Typically the instructor would have the student keep the tree upright for the period of one full round. If the tree fell, the student would have to start over. While this is not shin hardening per se, it may be where some of the legend comes from. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.202.183.66 (talk • contribs) date.
 * When you harden your shin, you actually kill some of the nerves in your skin. The best way to do this is hitting training pads and sandbags repeatedly. If you hit, or use, harder things like glass bottles other solid stuff you will hurt your bone and in the long run make your bone more easier to break. Of course you will kill the nerves faster with harder things but in the long run, it's just not worth it.--NoNo 22:36, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Some time ago a short and rather graphic clip of a kickboxer suffering a severe fracture of the lower leg (and attempting to stand on it with a rather gruesome result) made the rounds on the net. At that time the comment made by Mr. Miles in his classes was that the injury was possibly due partially to a lack of time spent on a hard heavybag for conditioning. The notion of shin conditioning is not so much to do with hardening or deadening of the tissues in the shins themselves but rather the strengthening of the bone. Bone is living tissue with active vascular, immuneosuppressant and structural activity. This is how bones heal. Like muscle, but unlike nerve, bone is an adaptive tissue. In strength training the muscle is being damaged on a cellular and intercellular level by overstressing the tissues. The actual increase in strength comes not from the work on the bench itself but from the healing that the muscles undergo over the following day or two (the burn). Bone is similar. Upon repeatedly striking a hard surface such as a densely packed heavybag, the bone gets injured slightly. These small injuries are repaired and reinforced by the body in anticipation of future trauma. Sokhim Or (Ranked 7th Welterweight in the world at one point) is known for the many many hours kicking one particular heavlybag purportedly filled with loose cement powder; his performance in the ring attests to this (more than one bout won by knockout in less than 15 seconds into the first round). Peter Leitz is coming out of retirement to prepare for a bout with Sokhim. Dave K, Peter Leitz's manager says that the Peter is in "great shape and is training hard. He will be ready". But the question is will Sokhim? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.202.183.66 (talk • contribs) date.

But, your nerves gotta die off too, cause how else would it be possible for a thaiboxer to kick against someones shin and feel considerably less pain than a regular person doing the same kick?--84.217.121.191 21:07, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

If your nerves did die out, you wouldn't even be able to feel yourself rubbing on your shin. What is actually happening is you are conditioning your mind and body to get used to the pain. Plus all that other physiological stuff talk about int he above. Shardakar 05:45, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, shouldn't it be possible to at least kill off some nerves? I agree with the "bone gets harder" thing, there's been tests on all that, but only if you use something that's softer than your shin, e.g. a heavy bag or thai pad. That's about getting the bone harder, the killing of nerves are about reducing the pain. I don't believe that you raise your pain bar substantially(you know what I mean with pain bar) when you kick at a heavy bag or something similar. It doesn't hurt to hit a heavy bag! I do believe, however, that the impact kills off some nerves. I got no really good sources(medical), but if you search the web you can get some, at least, interesting results.

Check |womenkickboxing.com/trainer for This will thicken the bone slightly, increase bone density and kill off a few of the nerves that transmit the pain! or a even better source |Ironlife.com 101 on Shin Conditioning. He(on ironlife.com) adds too that "hardening of the shins" can be psychological,but in another way, that the adrenaline in a fight keeps you somewhat less aware of the pain. Well, anyone got better sources?--NoNo 00:54, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe the glue and glass covered gloves is actually a myth, brought to popular attention by the film Kickboxer. If anything it would have been broken sea shells and not glass. Even that may be untrue and I have heard Thai Boxing masters say it was actually the hemp rope wraped around their fists that was tied to form sea shell shaped balls on the knuckles, these were very abrasive and able to cut easily. Watch Ong Bak and you will see these. Ong Bak is actually a very accurate film portraying traditional style 'master techniques' very well (appart from the flaming knees!), showing them beating the modern Thai Boxing sport.


 * Then again, you might not know who would win a fight between an old style muay thai fighter against a modern one. I believe, that muay thai have been improved, especially with it's western boxing style. As far as what I've heard, it's generally agreed upon that they used hemp ropes with, at special occasions, glass or sea shells crushed and glued or in some other way stuck to "gloves". These "special occasions" were when they performed in front of the king. I've also heard tales of kings that forced their servants to sit against each other on the ground and beat each other until the other guy died. Unable to move, these fights ended quickly and by that tale/myth, you can almost comprehend how cruel a medieval king might have been. --84.217.127.182 23:51, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * http://www.discoverychannelasia.com/martial_arts/south_asia/muay_thai/index.shtml at least discovery channel doesn't believe the tar and glass thing was made up by Bloodsport.--NoNo 20:07, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * well, something must be decided upon about this, seeing as the arcticle has contradicting statements...seeing as it seems to have some slight evidence, ill include it for now —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.184.246.3 (talk) 05:43, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

http://www.horizonmuaythai.com/muaykaadchuek.html Some cool photos of muay kaad chuek.--84.217.117.163 01:05, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
 * It is a common pratice in MMA gyms.

Muay thai vs the kung-fu masters
So there's a famous legend X kung-fu masters (insert martial art of choice) being invited to fight against Thailand's muay thai champions sometime in the 1970s, and all being defeated/knocked out within Y minutes. Is there some historical backing for this?
 * There's a lot of information about this at Journal of Chinese Martial Science. While some of the articles are pro-Muay Thai, such as the one called A History of Kung Fu VS Muay Thai, others give equal respect to san shou, like The Night Muay Thai lost its Supremacy. The author also talks some about Bajiquan, because he trains in it himself. Very interesting read, and he presents a very in-depth history and analysis of san shou vs Muay Thai. / Wintran 17:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Considering that Muay Thai(Kickboxing) together with BJJ has proved to be by far the most effective combination in UFC and Pride. I think it's proved that Muay Thai is one of the most effective martial arts in the world, if not the most effective one. --84.217.121.14 00:52, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Of course those kung-fu masters who fought Muay Thai fighers in the 30's were not even masters. In the late 20's and early 30's there were couple national free fight torunaments held in Nanjing, Hangzhou and Shanghai.  Each province held the preliminary rounds of fights, and then send the best 10 or so to compete in the final round.  These torunaments were dominated by Northern Chinese fighters, as there was no weight class and the fight was free, i.e. grapping was allowed.  The top 6 or so fighters in these tournaments were native of Hebei.  This is not surprising as Hebei provided over 50% of all top-3 Imperial Martial Art Examination in the Qing Dynasty.  The styles of these Hebei fighters were Xiang Yi, Zhuo Jiao, Tong Bi, etc, and they were trained in Shui Jian (Chinese wrestling). - Karolus 2006/5/10

Not kung fu, but during the 70s, plenty of Japanese came to Thailand and fought with Thais in Muay Thai. This was Thai Muay Thai vs. Japanese Muay Thai. Most of the japanese were roundly defeated (nothing wrong with that - no Thai has ever won the Judo or Karate world championship either). The japanese licked their wounds, went back and integrated muay thai into the quickly evolving hybrid shoot-righting/vale-tudo/MMA styles being developed in the 80s and 90s, and these days, nearly all of the top fighters in Pride and UFC have some training in Muay Thai. It is silly to argue over what martial art is "best", when time and time again it has been shown that a good "hybrid" fighter can often defeat a good "pure" fighter. Patiwat 11:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * There were some matches in early 1970's between Kung Fu (Mi ZHong, Wing Tsun and Choi Lay Fat) martial artists from Hong Kong who fought Muay Thai fighters in Bangkok and lost. The skills of these Kung Fu fighters were not bad, but they lost on the technicalities of the regulations: the fight rules were Muay Thai rules allowing knee and elbow strikes, whereas in the Kung Fu competition in Hong Kong in the 1970's at that time the British government banned knee and elbow strike and also forced fighters to wear helmets. In the early 1980s they finally decided not to grant any permits for fighting competions.


 * There is no such thing as the best martial art style. Some styles, however, are better than the others in the sense that the trainings are more complete and the teachers are better equipped and more experienced.  Inpired by the linguistic models developed by Professor Hashimoto in explaining the languages of North East Asia and South East Asia, I have this model of the East Asian martial art styes:


 * 1) In the Northern part of East Asia (Mongolia, Manchuria, Hebei, Shanxi, Korea and Japan), emphasis is on wrestling, throwing, grabbing and arm twisting on legs as well as on the ground. I think this is because in winter the land is frozen and slippery, people wear thick cloths and the most efficient way is to wrestle your opponents on the ground and pin him down.


 * 2) In Northern and Central China where the climate is warmer, the emphasis is on using the legs as weapons. Besides wrestling and arm twisting techniques, Hebei also has the most kicking intensive styles and ground fights techniques using arms lock and leg kicks were commonly practiced.  The same can be said to Shangdong styles, Korean styles and modern Japanese styles.


 * 3) In Southern China the emphasis is on using the forearms and hands to fight, so the styles developed complex uses of fist, forearms (Jiao Shou), palms, etc, as well as stances. This is due to the fact that people travel by boats and ships most of them time, and fights happened on boat a lot more than on land.


 * 4) In continental South East Asia emphasis is on legs again. Perhaps the plain is bigger than the small plains around river delta in Southern China so people travel by land more.


 * As for on stage or in ring fight competition, I think the best techniques used will depend on the distance between you and the opponent.  The winning combination is target position, speed and power of your strike, the defence power of your body including the ability of slightly move (1 inch or less) your body away from your opponent's strike, and the  sustaining power of your body in case your opponent's strikes succeeded.


 * Karolus 23/5/2006

I agree with you, but Muay Thai is used in the training of stand-up game of alot of UFC and Pride fighters so I think you can say for sure that a NHB game the thaiboxing(I refuse to say thai kickboxing) works best. But, of-course, a thaiboxer will have not a chance agains't a BJJ or any other grappler. Maybe that should be stated in the article? The ol' grappler vs. standing are a classic.--84.217.121.68 08:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Thai fighters came to Japan and started talking crap about how Muay Thai is better than Karate. Mas Oyama sent 3 of his fighters to Thailand to accept their challenge. The Kyokushin gym won 2/3 of the fights. The Thai fighters came back to challenge the gym again but suffered more losses to the Kyokushin gym.--Snugglbunny (talk) 09:42, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

What does tomoi have to do with Muay Thai history?
A short paragraph describing tomoi is shown in the History section. The paragraph does not have anything to do with history, i.e., how tomoi derived or was influenced by Muay Thai. I believe it should be deleted or edited from the History section.

Boxer's day
is boxer's day on march the 16th or 17th?! i see different numbers on the internet.

it's on 17.

National Muay Thai Day

Missed Info and Misunderstandings
While I agree with most of this article, I don’t think I completely agree about description of the round kick, as kicking with the leg locked. To some extent the standing leg is straight and ‘locked’ at time of contact (depending on the height of the kick), but I have never kicked nor seen anyone else kick with a locked kicking leg! In fact it is most distinctively bent at point of contact. The power comes from the spring from the floor and the rotation of the body, this energy is rapidly translated to the release of the leg towards the target, quite often in a downwards cut. It is definitely not swing of a straight leg as the article describes. Also I would not advise anyone to kick with the foot, it would most probably lead to injury. The kick should be delivered by no further down the leg than the instep. Catching the leg is not just restricted to a round kick, and is often done also for defence of a front kick. Upon catching a leg the techniques available to the attacker extend much further then simple attacking the standing leg! Finally there is no mention of the difference in rules found in Thai boxing contests outside of Thailand, including most mixed martial arts. Most contests outside Thailand do not allow the use of elbows and knees to the head, considering them too dangerous. This dramatically changes the style of fighting. Some mixed martial arts allow knees, which is probably why there seams to be an emphasis of knee techniques in the article, there is just as many and just and dramatic elbow strikes, its just that these are not likely be seen in the likes of K1.


 * Well, not locked in the sense of an immobile or straight leg (maybe more like you say, "locked at time of contact"), but you don't snap as a karate or TKD practioneer do. And ur right about the techniques that can be used after a leg catch. We practice knees to the head, ribs, sweeps and if flexible enough, a kick to the head. I've seen Buakaw Por Pramuk do a kick to the head when he catched a kick during a match.. He rock. --84.217.124.111 20:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * A good point is made about the difference in rules between "Thai" Muay Thai and "Foreign" Muay Thai. There is also a rules differences between amateur and professional Muay Thai.  Why don't you note down the differences and include them as a seperate section? Patiwat 05:16, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Kickboxing and Muay Thai
I think it is wrong say people consider kickboxing as a watered down version of Thai Boxing, it is just a very very different style. Let alone the fact there is no knees, elbows, clinch work or leg kicks in kickboxing, the remaining kicking styles have very little very little in common. A Thai Boxer would be very unlikely to try a spinning backfist, a hook kick, back kick or axe kick. Kickboxing was formed in America in the 70's from a need to produce a ring sport had the familiarity of western boxing but included all the new and exciting 'kung fu' and karate kicks. The evolution of kickboxing has seen it develop to having more in common with Karate and Tae Kwon Do than any other style.


 * Sure, you got techniques, but in a fight between a kickboxer and a thaiboxer with knees and elbows allowed I would bet all my money on the thaiboxer. We prepare for kicks and fists(and well, we got a spinning backfist(although not frequently used) plus a "back elbow") plus we could dominate you from the clinch. And there fore people say that kickboxing is a watered down form of Muay Thai. Muay thai is a watered down version of Burmese boxing which got headbutts too. Heck, muay thai is a watered down version of muay thai, cause in 1930's u were allowed to kick to the groin.--84.217.124.111 20:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Just because you're of the opinion that kickboxing is less effective than Muay Thai dominates doesn't make kickboxing a "watered down" version of Muay Thai. "Watered down" doesn't mean less effective - it means derivative and less effective. The grandfather editor has noted that kickboxing is not at all derivative of Muay Thai, even though on paper, they might appear familiar. Patiwat 05:14, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * AFAIK Oriental and American Kickboxing have different origins. American has it's roots in boxing, and it's little more than boxing with kicks. Oriental kickboxing was a merging of Muay Thai and Karate Kyokushinkai that took place in Japan. Low-kicks are allowed, shin strikes, and even knee strikes. It is in fact very much like Muay Thai.

Image
We should have an image that shows a live Muay Thai match in progress, maybe with someone throwing a knee, kick or elbow. Shawnc 04:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll get that, I'm also gonna get a picture on some thai mitts.--NoNo 00:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Can someone get a proper image of two fighters in a clinch? The one in the article is completely wrong, as the caption explains, and really has nothing to do with a mauy thai cinch —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.233.67.209 (talk) 13:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

What do you guys think about this text?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundhouse_kick#Muay_Thai_Method Maybe it should be added to the article? Not me who wrote it though. --84.217.115.202 00:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Need help with the Notable Figures...
I fixed John Wayne Parr's name but I'm not sure what should be done with it. Oh, I alphabetized it also. You think that people should be listed on wikipedia to qualify to be listed on notable figures?--NoNo 00:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Vo tu do
I am pretty sure thats a viet martial arts that is independent from muay thai and invented by the viets. I dont it has anything to do with muay thai.Ifire 01:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Copyright?
Would it be possible to use this photo or drawing (hard to say) in the article? It's found on several web sites on google. Perhaps is this a better picture ? I'm not sure however if it's Nai Khanomtom on the picture. The google search say it is, but the guy fought in 1774, so he can't be on a photo right? If the thai didn't invented the camera first..hmm. It could be a drawing but the detail on the ropes says otherwise in my humble opinion. Anyway, please say what you think and if you think that this photo/drawing could fall under fair-use because of the author is probably dead for at least 100 years. I'm not sure who's the author though, but could the photo/drawing fall under

''Historical photographs
 * 1) it is a historically significant photo of a famous individual;
 * 2) it is of much lower resolution than the original (copies made from it will be of very inferior quality)
 * 3) the photo is only being used for informational purposes.
 * 4) Its inclusion in the article adds significantly to the article because it shows the subject of this article and how the event depicted was very historically significant to the general public.''

Thanks for the help!--NoNo 22:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I STRONGLY suspect that PD-old would apply based on common logic (If he was alive in 1774, then the artist would have to have lived for probably well over 100 years for even the Life + 100 years countries to still perpetuate a copyright), however that isn't always a good legal move and I suspect many people around here would challenge anything but an outright explicit date of death of the author. Also, remember that all images, PD or not, have to have a source. 68.39.174.238 04:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm closing this as excluded because it has been a year and the image is not in the article. -Andrew c [talk] 21:34, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Lethwei
Lethwei is in the same martial arts system as Muay Thai, but is a diffrent style is it now. I believe it should be in the intro.Figer 03:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, true, 202.133.104.38 did a edit which fixed it being inserting "similar style called Lethwei" in the intro. --NoNo 17:37, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

History
I have reverted he article to a significantly older version for the sake of the part on history. It seems that someone felt that most of muay Thai's development should be removed and gave no explanation why. I thought that the user wanted to remove too much information regarding muay boran but the muay boran article has been given the same treatment. All of the changes made to this article prior to this revision have been minor so I don't think too much damage was done. If someone thinks that a large portion of the article needs to be removed, they should at least have a good excuse. Morinae 05:25, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Thai boxers did use glass on their gloves but it just wasn't common. and there should prbably be something written on Muay Thai attire.

Where to learn in L.A. ? or a website for finding well respected locations to learn ? or world and national headquarters for various styles ?
Hello,

I'm looking for a place to practice in L.A. Where would I figure out how to find something? While I don't think the article or talk page should directly advertise specific locations to learn, I think it should be more helpful in directing someone who is interested in the right direction. Thanks. Tkjazzer 21:05, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

one of the best gym's in LA is Muay Thai Academy of America. 11024 Vanowen St, North Hollywood (818)760-3880 Web Site

Marty Rockatansky 23:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Trimming down
The sections on both techniques and terminology sort of read like lists. Would it be at all possible to shorten them? Is all the information in said sections really necessary? MezzoMezzo 22:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Photo of Thai clinch
The author seems to have so many issues with the photo (see caption) that it would seem more productive to delete it and use one that they prefer. I think it is not a good practise to use a picture as an example of 'what not to do' in an encyclopedic article. The article's material should reflect what the art is rather than what it is not. Thoughts?--Mateo2006 20:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Once a suitable replacement can be secured, I'd support its replacement, but I don't think we should just junk it. -Toptomcat 06:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll try to fix a good photo...--84.217.115.233 00:49, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Marine Corps Martial Arts Program vs. Muay Thai
About halfway down the article is a picture of two US Marines in a clinch. The caption mentions that the clinch is incorrect, which it may be for muay thai - I don't know it, so I can't say for sure. However, being in the military and knowing that multiple disciplines are drawn on for the Army combatives program, and going off of the article on the Marine Corps Martial Arts Program, I would say that those Marines are not going for a muay thai clinch, as opposed to a clinch as they were taught. I'd suggest that the caption be edited to reflect this, if the picture is not removed entirely. - Kant Lavar 04:32, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you believe this may be a legitimate clinch in the MCMAP? I find it hard to believe, as it offers little to no control over the other person. Whompage 19:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd also support removing the image from the article, since it doesn't show a proper plum clinch. Tuckdogg 20:03, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * the clinch is incorrect and has nothing to do with muay thai. but i think before removing it we should find an image to replace it with. (Marty Rockatansky 00:02, 27 October 2007 (UTC))

pronunciation
since the pronunciation wasn't fully in the IPA, I took a stab at the tone. the Thai article forgot to specify tone class, so I'm probably wrong. Please correct, but just writing "32" doesn't mean anything. kwami 07:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Checked. Those consonants should both indicate mid tone. kwami 13:45, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

The overall article is in need of better images
Just deleted the clinch image but same time would like to encourage everybody to look around for better images for this article. Specially for different techniques or anything related to muay thai to improve the overall layout. thx (Marty Rockatansky (talk) 13:38, 19 December 2007 (UTC))


 * I can try to shoot some original photos. I would rather not see this article become a picture book, but instead have a few images that are very distint to Muay Thai. Any suggestions? --Technotaoist (talk) 00:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Images that might be helpful:
 * The Wai khru ram muay image could be better. The image itself is of pretty good quality, but it's blurry (I think that's a shutter speed issue?).
 * Maybe a picture of a proper elbow technique?
 * ...and a knee strike?
 * That's about all I can think of right now. Gromlakh (talk) 02:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Drug Tests?
Do they drug test in Muay Thai, at least before a match? I assume they are checking for stimulants like ephedrine or amphetamines and not psychedelics like cannabis or shrooms......is this the case? Also, is caffeine considered one of the banned stimulants before and after matches? Zachorious (talk) 02:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

History Section
The history section is kinda confusing. Can someone clean it up? Thank you.Asian888 (talk) 01:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Knotty Muay Thai, the out side of the ring
I found this article which covers in depth some of the historical aspects of Muay Thai discussed in the wikipedia article, but which also makes some controversial points. I was wondering what everyone else thought of it, and whether some of the concepts discussed should not be included on wikipedia... Certainly, it seems worthy of a link. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.108.158.230 (talk) 14:09, 30 August 2008 (UTC) Here's the article: http://muaythai.me/knotty_muay_thai.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.108.158.230 (talk) 14:07, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Clarification for gals who are approaching the ring!
Hi - I'm a female Muay Thai practitioner just passing through. Could someone amend the 'approaching the ring' section to reflect that traditionally, female fighters are not allowed to go over the ropes, but must go through them? For a woman to go over is a HUGE breach of etiquette :( Otherwise, this article is quite good! - anna, pupa_anna@hotmail.com 79.66.212.251 (talk) 20:41, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Never heard of that in my life. Going under the ropes is considered bad luck as far as I know... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.30.34.58 (talk) 19:27, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

As some one living and training in Thailand I can say it's fairly rare to see someone going over the top rope, whether in training or at a fight. Thai people aren't exactly tall so getting over the rope would involve jumping in some way. Any kind of showiness and over confidence before a fight is generally frowned upon (one of the kids at my camp started doing pushups in the ring while his opponent was getting counted out and he got a lot of shit from the trainers afterwards)

It should be noted that traditioning in most martial arts including Muay Thai(which mostly is not a martial art anymore due to the adoption of instinctive fighting techniques of the upper body(boxing as it is called)and many other martial art techniques not exclusive to Maui Boran or Maui Tha, etc...) women are not considered true martial artists anyway. That is because the arts are designed, used, mastered, and needed by men and its techniques are supposed to play to the strengths of a man. A woman's training dating back centuries was an emphasis on wounding the target with a basic attack and running. This is one of the many reasons escorts where provided. It is sad what has happened to Karate and TKD in the modern schools on average in the emphasis on sport and money from children practioners(by way of parent(s), unconditioned elders, and women. But that is another debate. Regardless, female fighters are not to show any signs of claiming equality to a male fighter since the potential is clearly lacking. Like it or not, gender is of the physical, mental, and in my opinion the spiritual as well. Play to its strengths, not its weaknesses. It is the opposite sex that helps you compensate for your weaknesses due to your gender.

King Mangran
I can't find any information on this King under the list of Burmese monarchs. Can anyone help?Pwordisony (talk) 10:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You are right King Mangrai is definitely a mistake. He was a Thai warlord in 13th century, not burmese. I'll just change it to Hsinbyushin who's the king who sacked AyutthayaMarty Rockatansky (talk) 04:49, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Burmese King Hsinbyushin is indeed known in Thai as "King Mangra", which is a different person from King Mangrai of Chiang Mai. --Melanochromis (talk) 03:55, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clearing this out Melanochromis.Marty Rockatansky (talk) 04:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you have a reference for King Hsinbyushin and "King Mangra" being the same person?Pwordisony (talk) 07:38, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * He is popularly known in Thai as Mangra (pronounced Mang-ra), but in English he is often referred to as Hsinbyushin which I believe is a name he acquired later in life. It is possible that the Burmese royals, like the Thai counterparts, continuously acquire newer, longer names throughout life when becoming older or moving up the ranks. Not sure if this can be used as a reference, but this website lists his full name as Sri Suriyadharma Maha Dharmaraja Rajadhipati Mang Ra Hsinbyushin. Note that both "Mang Ra" and "Hsinbyushin" are included in this full version of his name. --Melanochromis (talk) 07:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, that helps. Thanks for the info. I understand what you are trying to say.Pwordisony (talk) 20:50, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Rules
Why does the article based the rules on the world muay thai council if there is no universally excepted rules for Muay Thai? Doesn't that create some favoritism or pro-world muay thai council? I think it is a bit bias. That section should be altered.Pwordisony (talk) 06:26, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree I'd remove the whole section and just add a link and go with a rules accepted by the Sports Authority of Thailand.Marty Rockatansky (talk) 04:54, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Ethnic groups that practice
What ethnic groups practice this in Thailand? Is it just the central Thai? or also the Thai Chinese and Khon Isan? How about the other minority groups? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.164.79.11 (talk) 20:51, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
 * i have no sources to back myself up, i know that a lot of champions come from the Isan and Surin provinces, see Yodsaenklai, Buakaw. Isan is actually called the hotbed of muay thai. I have never heard any thai-chinese. East is more mixed with khmers. and from south, Namsaknoi is muslim.Marty Rockatansky (talk) 05:04, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

spelling of Muaythai
I'd like to change the title of the article to Muaythai as the correct name of the sport since 1999. There shouldnt be any objections i just wanted to get it out here before the change. thxMarty Rockatansky (talk) 08:31, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, I've never seen it spelled in one word before and all the references have it as two..? -- aktsu (t / c) 08:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Quote Charissa Chan, Director Media Ventures, World Muaythai Council:

"Did you Know that the name of our sport is written Muaythai?

We officially changed Muay Thai to be Muaythai in 1999 as part of our GAISF application and also in accordance with the Olympic movement. World Muaythai Council officially endorses Muaythai to assist in our dream: one team for Muaythai at the Olympics.

WMC head office provides to members the Official Logo with Muaythai in one word. This logo is available from WMC headquarters in Thailand on wmcifma@hotmail.com."

add those for your references three main muaythai governing bodies in the world -, , .Marty Rockatansky (talk) 08:59, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, seems like you're right then - I didn't know.. BTW, would I be correct in saying muaythai should be spelled as I just did (i.e. "muaythai", lowercase M), in the same way football is spelled with a lowercase F? I mostly see "Muay Thai" and always wondered about that.. -- aktsu (t / c) 09:12, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Edit: what are the capitalization rules anyway? Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu vs Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Mixed Martial Arts vs mixed martial arts etc..? -- aktsu (t / c) 09:26, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Well Thai might be capitalize because its the name of a people like American or Canadian or Russian. Muay shouldn't be capitalize unless its used at the beginning of a sentence or in an organization title like the World Muay Thai Council. But, since its one word it would be odd to have muayThai.  You don't capitalize a letter in the middle of a word.  So if it was at the end of a sentence it should be muaythai.  Muaythai would be spelled like this at the beginning of a sentence since it is only one word.Pwordisony (talk) 09:36, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's what I would assume as well but I still see "Muay" all the time, including in the article. Jiu-Jitsu seems to be everywhere as well making me think there's a criteria or something making it "football" and "tennis" instead of Football and Tennis, or if Jiu-Jitsu and Muay is just flat out wrong... -- aktsu (t / c) 09:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * i don't know about the rules but it makes sense to be lowercase like boxing, kickboxing, football etc.Marty Rockatansky (talk) 09:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately I haven't had time to work on the overall article yet, it needs a total rewrite. Marty Rockatansky (talk) 09:48, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * jujitsu is not capitalized. kwami (talk) 12:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Seems like you're right. Not to hijack the thread, but should Gracie Jiu-Jitsu be capitalized as well? Gracie should be (a surname), but how about Jiu-Jitsu when... I suck at describing English grammar... it's a "name" (proper noun? Dunno what you would call it. Similar to "Microsoft Windows". GJJ is trademarked as well). -- aktsu (t / c) 13:00, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It should be Gracie jiu-jitsu. Gracie is the adjective and jiu-jitsu is the noun.   "Microsoft Windows" is a particular name for a company.  "Microsoft" is not describing what type of window it is.Pwordisony (talk) 19:44, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What I mean is, what makes the capitalized W in Windows different from not capitalizing the Js in Gracie jiu-jitsu? Sorry again for continuing this here -_- -- aktsu (t / c) 05:46, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * If it were just any old jujitsu of the Gracie kind, then yes, it would be "Gracie jujitsu" (not "jiu-jitsu"; the normal English spelling is jujitsu). However, if it's a proper name, a specific sport called GJJ, then it should go by its own idiosyncratic spelling, and be capitalized to show that the JJ is part of the name, and not just the generic kind of sport: "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu". kwami (talk) 07:09, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Copypaste concerns
With this edit, substantial text was introduced to this article which duplicates and. Internet archives confirm the prior publication of the first of these, here. While some original text was added at this time, text was pasted from that source more than sufficient to represent copyright infringement. I am bolding just a few sentences from our article to highlight literal duplication (there is more): "One of the most important traditions of Muay Thai is Wai Khru (Paying Respect to Teachers)." "In order to become a fully-fledged Muay Thai fighter, a person has to pass through a series of ceremonies." "It is only when fighters have passed all these three milestones (initiation, training and participation in contests) that they are entitled to call themselves as real Muay Thai fighters." Evidence suggests the second source also predates ours. Archives show it has been published since at least May of 2007, while the text was placed here in October 2007. Text of concern here includes "Wai Khru Muay Thai is a tradition which goes back to ancient times, it is not an optional ritual or reserved for special occasions: the official Muay Thai regulations specify that both fighters must perform the Wai Khru Ram Muay before each and every bout." and "After the Wai Khru is completed, the fighters return to their own corners for the Removal of the Head Circlet Ritual (Pitee Tod Mongkon)."

Unless permission is verified to use this text (see Requesting copyright permission or Donating copyrighted materials) this section will need to be revised or removed to bring it into compliance with our copyright policy. I am blanking it with the copyright template to give regular contributors to this topic an opportunity to revise this text, if deemed appropriate, in the temporary space. Though it is already listed at the copyright problems board, Copyright problems/2009 March 5, I will relist it to reset the clock for admin closure for another 7 days. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 11:47, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). (See section above for details.) Infringing material has been removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a license compatible with GFDL. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 13:31, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

External link: ozfighters.com.au
External Links should be a list of links that are useful for those people who are interested in learning about the sport and its competitors. I fail to see why providing links to external sites (obviously not including geocities style sites, but legitimate dot com sites) with further information on the subject should be removed? (Apologies I'm not sure how to correctly format a discussion on this subject) - User IP 203.30.34.58 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.30.34.58 (talk) 18:46, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * See page history for context. While there's a precedent for such links with e.g. Sherdog.com's fight finder, I don't think a site listing a grand-total of 86 fighters, and as opposed to Sherdog only the fighters record (not the actual fights), weight and gym, is nearly in the same league. While I'm sure the site is still useful and will only become more useful, I can't really support linking to it until it's become bigger and/or more "legitimate" so to speak. -- aktsu (t / c) 06:44, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Your link belongs under more specific page like Oceania Muaythai Federation or any reference for fighters pages. I dont see Nathan Corbett or John Wayne Parr listed. Bruce Macfie has a record of 0W / 0L / 0D / 0KO - how accurate that is for the most active OZ muaythai figher of all time?Marty Rockatansky (talk) 10:02, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The link being considered has information "[f]rom boxing to MMA to Muay Thai." I think the site is too broad for a page covering only Muay Thai. --TreyGeek (talk) 13:03, 26 July 2009 (UTC)


 * There's actually 52 gyms and 181 fighters. Not sure where you got 86 from?

Could you please explain what you mean by "more legitimate"? The gym profiles/accounts are created and maintained by the gyms and trainers themselves, there's not much more legitimate source of information around? There's more to Australian Muay Thai than the 3 most popular fighters you can think of. Riddlers Gym is a current particpating gym which includes fighters like Chris White, Chad Walker (both WMC intercontinental champions) and Eugene Ekkelboom (5 time WMC world champ). Corporate Box gym (Shaggy's & Preacher's gym) was the second gym to create an account and is maintained by Adam King, Shaggy's brother. When he created the account he didn't know Preacher's record and so is currently waiting on the information from Bruce - it has obviously slipped his mind, last I spoke to Adam he was waiting for full bio's from all of the Corporate Box fighters. Won't take too much more than an email to Adam to get the information added. Guarantee Bruce's info is there by the end of the week. The site is legitimate and has been very well received by those in the industry (including Foxtel presenters Mark Castagnini and Perry Cale - I'm assuming you know about the Australian Muay Thai scene and the strong affiliation it has with the International Kickboxer Sportzblitz forum). Just because Boonchu or 5 Rings Dojo haven't got an account yet doesn't make the site any less legitimate. If people wanted information on JWP or Carnage they can use wiki. OzFighters is a source of info on fighters that aren't already world famous.

The site is informative for those looking for information on fighters in the Australian fight industry. And not just the famous fighters like Carnage and JWP - it includes everyone. One fighter profile that isn't up to date is not a fair reflection on the other 181 profiles. Sherdog is a reporting website, it's the same as an online magazine that takes its results from UFC broadcasts. OzFighters takes the information straight from the fighters/gyms themselves and is not an online magazine. I think you'll also find that a new feature was recently added to track fight record history (see Adam Witt's fighter profile). The feature was only added yesterday.

Could you please explain why the link belongs on the Oceania Muay Thai Federation page as opposed to Muay Thai page? After all the site gives information on the competitors of Australian Muay Thai, and is not affiliated in anyway with the Oceania Muaythai Federation, which is part of the WMC to my understanding.

The link should also go on the MMA link as well once it has enough MMA profiles, but at the moment I don't believe it has enough MMA profiles involved with the site. At the moment I think you'll find the largest % of profiles are Muaythai.

Side note, I Appreciate the opportunity to have this discussion. Apologies for the "edit war" business, I wasn't aware of the abilty to have discussions like this before I was alerted to it by Aktsu. (203.30.34.58 (talk) 13:58, 26 July 2009 (UTC))


 * What i meant was a page more specific to muaythai scene in oceania. its called ozfighters so have it linked with pages related to oz fighters. i think the way i brought up Macfie's record for an example was inappropriate, sorry, its a great site you have, to have it linked here under muaythai is just too broad.Marty Rockatansky (talk) 04:16, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Hrm, thats a fair point. Could you recommend any pages that you think it would be more suited to as I agree it is more closely related to Oceania Muay Thai than to world Muay Thai. Can you recommend/suggest a page that would be more suited to holding the link? I tried finding the "Oceania Muay Thai Federation" page but couldnt seem to find it. (203.30.34.58 (talk) 05:08, 27 July 2009 (UTC))


 * I'd really appreciate if you can work on improving some fighter pages instead of just adding links to your site. I cant find Warren Elson's date of birth anywhere. All fighters should be listed under List of male kickboxers or under Category:Australian kickboxers. If i have some time i'll create Thor's page, i have his complete fight rec written down somewhere. Evolution i think is due its page, example It's Showtime. I'd love to see Eli Madigan full fight rec, he's gonna be on Contender II. Any information you add list your site as a reference. Marty Rockatansky (talk) 06:13, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Muay Thai and Muay Boran
I moved some of the history info into the muay boran article because muay Thai only refers to the modern style created in the last 100 years. Anything before that is actually muay boran. It's inevitable that they'll overlap but not everything needs to be repeated.Morinae (talk) 10:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Who first : Muaythai or Boxkator (Cambodian)
The debate on Muaythai vs. Camboian Boxe Libre seems to be everlasting. I am a friend of Grand master San Kim Saen since the early 2000, before Bokator became known outside Cambodia. I am a historian on fighting arts — majoring in Muay Thai and other S.E. Asian disciplines, and actually began 1n 1965. The views below are part of my findings and I draw no race lines, being Chinese raised in the former British colony of Hong Kong. I taught (since 1975),wrote, commented, promoted and officiated, in Hongkong, China, Thailand & Myanmar.

First, I believe the combat arts of Thailand, Cambodia, Laoos, Vietnam, and Burma all had a common root in the distant past — probably when their forefathers were inhabiting various regions as minority groups in Yunnan. We are talking about the time of Gautama, the Buddha, i.e. before B.C. 544 or 2,500 years from our time. Fusion and cross-pollination of the tribal cutlures had been taking place since time immemorial, through war and inter-marriage. We only have different names such as Muaythai, Kun Khmer or Myanmar Let Whyat and Tu Luyen Vo Tu Do ( free-style boxing art ) because of political preference – often dictated by nationalism – and/or regional cultural and conceptual / linguistic inclinations. These elements, over the face of changing history, have influenced the arts in diffrenent ways and to varying extents. Indochina, in the most ancient times, was known as Suvannabhumi ( the Golden Land ), and tribes of settlers and migrants, from China as well as the oceanic islands, were roaming freely with no recognizable boundaries. The ancient Yue ( Southern Barbarians in Chinese History ), and the Wa people were there, preceded by the more indigenous or native Negroid and primitive Paleo-Caucasoid groups. Ancestors of the Thai, Khmer, and Mon-Burmans were all in Yunnan, around the region of Erhai Lake, as tribal confederates, and each, invariably, had been subject to Chines influence at divers times and to different degrees dependent on the extent of the Chinese rule over or interaction with the particular people. Tribes of the primeval Shan-Tai, for example, goes way back, to the age of Emperor Yaodi (B.C.2282). They had been on the move since, progressively sidelined as the power game in the cental mainland changed its political complexion.

The ancient Shan-Tai groups were migrating into the Indochina peninsula as early as B.C.425. The Cambodians, on the other hand, founded Funan ( A.D.85 ), which was annexed by Chenla in A.D.657. Chenla was a state of mixed races. The primary ones being Cambodians, Indonesian, and the ancient Shan-Tais. In A.D. 707 Chenla split up with the southern part ( Water ) dominated by the Khmers, and the upper ( Land ), by the Shan-Tai-Lao groups. Chinese chroncles attest that Land Chenla, also known as Wen Shen ( Thai language Vieng Shan ), was a glamorous state, and its capital, as we can ascertain today, was Ubon Ratchathani, in northeastern Thailand. Chenla, as far as one can establish, was from the line of Funan, and founded by an Indian prince ( Ksatriya caste ), but constituted by Thai-Lao & Khmer tribes.

A unified Cambodia only emerged in A.D.902, after which the Great Empire of Angkor took over almost the whole of the Menam basin. It is public knowledge that before Siam was officially founded at Sukhothai, the Thai people had been living under Khmer rule, and also, after the fall of Angkor (A.D.1420), a century of Khmerization occurred in Siam. There can be little dispute that the best of Cambodian art and culture had not only continued to develop in the land of its conqueror, but things such as language, architecture, Court rituals, astrology, drama and dancing were received with great passion. It was so intense that the arts and religion of the two civilizations began to merge to a degree never so visibly before.

Noteworthy is the fact that, five centuries later, Cambodia, having lost in the traumatic dark age of the Khmer Rouge almost entirely her classical dancing tradition, managed to re-import the art from Thailand.

So, the question of who has stolen from whom, or who owes her art to whom ? is just too emotive — and perhaps complicated — a subject to resolve by martial art fans. Insofar as historical information is concerned, the points below maybe useful to all those endeavouring to determine the truth, or what came closest to it :

1) The Shan-Tai racial family had a history traceable to the dawn of Chinese civilization. The Cambodians, however, first appeared in around the Eastern Zhou dynasty ( after B.C.770 ) although as a people, they may be some 3,000 years old. The Mon people were in Indochina before the Tai migration and dominated over the other settler groups with the founding of Dvaravati in 500 A.D., and the Burmans, like the Tais, had been inhabiting southwestern China, before moving down to the Golden Land much later, in around the 6th century.

2) The Shan-Tai men were always a fighting race, with a long custom of assigning soldiers (warriors) to watch their village. These were men trained in fighting, with swords or fists.

3) A custom of martial contests at festivals, held to celebrate victory at war, alongside liberal drinking and ecstatic dancing, prevailed in the Kingdom of Ye Lang ( around 400 B.C. ) in Yunnan. It was the largest of the confederates of minority races, with the prime rivals being the Tai and the Yi ( karen ) groups within the state.

4) Indian fighting arts came into the Suvannabhumi region when traders, warrior princes ( Shakya ), and religious missions came east. The first city-state, Ta Gaung, in upper Myanmar, was founded in B.C.850 ( my reckoning is B.C.424 ) by a Shakya prince, Abhi Raza. The state became Tai centuries later. The word “muay” had its origin in the Sanskrit name, Malla, a fighting clan in northeastern India, which has been taken to mean pugilism or a professional wrestler – fighter.

5) Freestyle boxing as a tradition in Southeast Asia possibly took root first in the Korat plateau, during the Chenla period. It is now known to the Thais as the Upper Cambodia region, and the territory has produced many of the premier muaythai fighters in history. Conversely, Battambang, the best known place for its kickboxing culture in Cambodian, has been a Thai province for centuries until 1907. Van Shen ( capital of Land Chenla ), as the name implies, was Town of the Shans. One tribe, the Xang Khao (white elephant ), was recorded in a Chinese document dated 638 A.D. as ” men are, by custom, savage, and brave in combat.” Subsequently, it became the Lao city of Lanxang.

6) At the annual temple fair at Bakong, likely from A.D.889 onwards, boxing became a popular event. Was it Cambodian, or Shan ? Perhaps there was no distinction then.

7) Thailand’s muay tradition was already a known national heritage by the 50′s. The best of Boxe Libre ( in the 60′s ) were nowhere as potent as the the top Thais, due to difference in the industry’s economy on each side, and the comparative popularity in result. Sar Sary, the Cambodian legend, was kayo’d in R2 by Nilpad Lukthon of Thailand at Phnom Penh in 1958, and in March, 1974, at Bangkok’s Rajadamnern Stadium, a Thai vs. Khmer card concluded with 5 : 0 result. Amongst the defeated were the best of Cambodia, including Chea Sarak (148) ( who died a victime of the Khmer Rouge regime ),and Chhith Sarim (118), National Coach for Cambodia’s revived kickboxing in the past decade. I cannot see they could made a wothwhile comparison with the likes of Somdej Yontarakit, Apidej Sidhiran or Puth Lawlek.

Wrestling, presumably Hindu, was part of royal court entertainment in Siam until the 19th century, after which it has been Muay all the way. It was, based on the logic of evolution, eliminated and assimilated by the surviving art, which has been enriched in technological contents in that process. Sport muaythai, what we see today, is only the permissible part of Muay. The Muay Boran — red uniforms and yantra-marked vests — much talked about nowadays is actually Classical Muaythai ( Kadcheuak or bare-knuckled ), whereas real Muay Boran (Muai) is the amateur form of ancient boxing embodying forms and patterns of animals. They are still around, with grappling and finger/palm strikes, locks and throws, body drops and takedowns, in remote regions of Lao, Thailand (north) and Yunnan.

9) Unfortunately people are just subjective in their own perception. I dare say there is no bad martial arts, only folly of ignorant people who cannot see the wood from the trees. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.48.121.231 (talk) 15:52, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Bokator came first. The eldest use of the word goes back to the 9th century, the first use of the word Muay Thai was in the 20th Century, almost 1,100 years after the term Muay Thai was coined by Europeans who were in Siam at the time. Boran is a Khmer word, Muay Boran is a name used since the 1920's by modernized SEA's and Europeans because most of them can't name ancient Siamese martial arts. The earliest use of martial arts in Siam goes as far as the 14th century after the fall of the Khmer Empire which covered South East Asia whole. Much of the Angkor Temples still stand in many hot tourist spots in Southern Thailand and many of the Angkor Khmer teachings are still practiced in Thailand today. User:Snugglbunny 10:42, 21 November 2011 (UTC)