Talk:Mudaliar

References for Kaikolar/Sengunthar
REGARDING KAIKKOLAR AND MUDALIS It may be noted here that the terms above refer to only positions and not to caste. the word kaikkolar means one belonging to a regiment. any one can belong to a regiment. similarly mudali means an supervisor or an official. this again does mot indicate caste. Thre by it is proven beyond doubt that the hordes of "mudaliyar" ,"pillai" came to existence after 16th century and are obscure in origin(probably stemmed from jains/buddists). they certainly do not point to caste amd a vedic one at that. hohe of the inscriptions of ancient dynasty describe these castes.

There is another good story behind the origin of these races. During last phases of dwapara age sage ugrasarvas explains to pandavas that in the age of kali many demons will be born in earth as human beings. They will be born into different human castes like brahmins, vaisyas,kshatriyas, sudras etc and colonize different parts of the world. They create confusion and wreak havoc by spreading lies far and wide. They indulge in all kinds of wicked activities to ensure maximum assault on truth. Thereby in the age of kali o bharatas !adherence to one's duty alone can bring one closer to salvation.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.162.175.45 (talk) 12:26, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

by Donald F Lach, Edwin J Van Kley - History - 1998 - 662 pages'' Snippet view:: Clearly describes the status of Kaikolars.
 * ''Asia in the Making of Europe: A Century of Advance. Book 2, South Asia - Page 1032


 * Book: Of Property and Propriety: The Role of Gender and Class in Imperialism and Nationalism - Page 178 by Bannerji, Himani, Mojab, Shahrzad, Whitehead, Judith  Again, the google link provides a limited preview. This books also talks in great length about the Kaikolar Devadasis and the Brahmin men.


 * Madras Gazetteer recognized by the Government of India: providing google link. follow link for full book. ,

The Kaikolars are described in great detail in the following research articles and their identity has been clearly proven as the same terinja-Kaikolar Padai of the Chola empire. There is absolutely no question of any ambiguity. You can only deny in vain. Pathetic.

(proves that kaikolan musicians = devadasis) snippet view: link 2: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0004-3648(1972)34%3A4%3C331%3ATESOI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-2
 * The Erotic Sculptures of India Y. Krishan Artibus Asiae, Vol. 34, No. 4 (1972), pp. 331-343


 * Artisans in Vijayanagar Society, Vijaya Ramaswamy, Indian Economic & Social History Review, Vol. 22, No. 4, 417-444 (1985) 

This research article explains the blood relation between the Devadasis and the Kaikolar. ("Devaradiyar (dancing girls who have very close kinship ties with the Kaikkolar"


 * Weaver Folk Traditions as a Source of History, Vijaya Ramaswamy, Indian Economic & Social History Review, Vol. 19, No. 1, 47-62 (1982), http://ier.sagepub.com/cgi/content/citation/19/1/47?ck=nck

This research article explains in vivid detail, the way the Kaikkolas used their women to enjoy special privileges in the Vijayanagar empire. (Text Quoted from article: "At least one woman in every Kaikkola household was, according to age-old tradition dedicated to the temple as a devaradiyar or devadasi. The devaradiyar enjoyed special privileges in the days of the Vijayanagar empire and were the only women permitted a direct audience with the king". link2:


 * ''Weaver Folk Traditions as a Source of History, Vijaya Ramaswamy, Indian Economic & Social History Review, Vol. 19, No. 1, 47-62 (1982), http://ier.sagepub.com/cgi/content/citation/19/1/47?ck=nck,

This research article (along with references to an inscription) describes how a devaradiyar or devadasi won special privileges for the Kaikkolas from the king Deva Raya II (A.D 1433).

snippet view: link2:


 * Some Enquiries into the Condition of Weavers in Medieval South India, Indian Historical Review, Vol. VI, Nos. 1 and 2


 * This article talks in much detail about how women from the Sengundhar/ Kaikola caste get into the sacred prostitution in temples.

"Contending identities: Sacred prostitution and reform in colonial South India Priyadarshini Vijaisri A1, A1 Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (CSDS), New Delhi" South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies Publisher: Routledge, part of the Taylor & Francis Group Issue: Volume 28, Number 3 / December 2005 Pages: 387 - 411  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.214.25.228 (talk) 03:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Kaikolars(weavers)reference: Some Marriage Customs in Southern India: Deformity and Mutilation, Uralis ... - Page 141 By Thurston. E.
In the book ''Some Marriage Customs in Southern India: Deformity and Mutilation, Uralis ... - Page 141 By Thurston. E.'', the author Edgar Thurston describes the devadasi custom of Kaikolars(weavers) as follows:

Quoted from book : ''A custom prevails among the Kaikolars (weavers) by which one woman in each family becomes a prostitute, while retaining her caste. The girl chosen is taken to the temple where a sword is placed beside her with a tali (marriage badge) under it. The tali is then tied round her neck by any woman present and she returns to her own house where she is permitted to carry on any amours she chooses. She gets her share of the family property just as as if no such ceremony had taken place.'' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.97.250.141 (talk) 04:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Require ref for Sadayappa Mudaliar
Pls cite a reference that shows Vallal Sadayapa was a Kongu Vellala gounder. ShivNarayanan (talk) 02:00, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Mudaliar/Mudali
Etymology and definition of words Mudali and Mudaliar. Glosssary section: Caste and Capitalism in Colonial India: The Nattukottai Chettiars By David West Rudner

ShivNarayanan (talk) 02:02, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Karaiyar using Mudali title
Karaiyar, a fishing community also uses Mudali title

Ref:Caste, Nationalism and Ethnicity By Jacob Pandian

JSTOR: Political Emblems of Caste Identity--Sureshmaran (talk) 06:21, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Mudaliar is a title and not a caste
In the Book "Rural Society in Southeast India" By Kathleen Gough, it is shown that mudaliar was a title

Again it is shown clearly the difference between the caste and the title in the book "Uproot Hindutva "By Thirumaavalavan, Meena Kandasamy   Caste meant a profession and mudali was just a title again

Rajah of Cochin was also awarded this title. It is shown in the book "Jews in India" By Thomas A. Timberg 

It can't denote a particular caste as shown in the references --Sureshmaran (talk) 14:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Mudaliar was also used to represent a caste: Glosssary section:

Caste and Capitalism in Colonial India: The Nattukottai Chettiars By David West Rudner. ShivNarayanan (talk) 16:34, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Mudaliar is a title and not a caste
In the list of Backward classes, there is not a single caste mentioned as Mudaliar. It's a caste title of about six or more castes. They may intermarry among them. But the benefits such as reservation comes only under their caste name and not under Mudaliar making it clearly a title--Sureshmaran (talk) 00:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Mudaliar, a community
Nowadays Mudaliar is more a community, with some specific castes using this title than a caste. It is not right to call it a caste. It is a community of castes such as Arcot thuluva Vellalars, Sengunthars, Vellalars and its sub-divisions--Sureshmaran (talk) 03:29, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You gotta source? -- The Red Pen of Doom  03:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

A citation from the book-"Castes-Webster's Quotation,facts and phrases" --Sureshmaran (talk) 03:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

The following source says the castes cited in the above reference as separate castes in the backward classes list in the Indian state of Tamil Nadu

-This clearly shows that these castes are different but making a Mudaliar community altogether--Sureshmaran (talk) 04:04, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The government website source, as such, could be used to claim the description "backward class" but not "Community"" We report what the source actually says, not an interpretation.The "Castes" book linked through google books is actually just a Wikipedia mirror and not a reliable source (notice the WP as the author at the end of the article entry) --  The Red Pen of Doom  05:07, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Infobox images
I suggest one image for a field for the images in infobox. Any other suggestions are welcomed--Sureshmaran (talk) 04:46, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Gatti Mudaliar
I tried to make this section make more sense, as, I assume, did the editor before me, but it needs a dedicated re-write. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chamberlian (talk • contribs) 18:27, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Would A.R. Rahman come in this in History??
Wanted to know if A.R. Rahman should be under the History Section?

Changes in the last year
you seem to have been responsible for most of the significant changes in the last year but you do not explain what was wrong with the sources that existed before your involvement - you just "rewrote" it. Isn't there an issue with WP:NPOV here? - Sitush (talk) 15:54, 15 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Forget the above - I was looking at the wrong diff. - Sitush (talk) 15:58, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

== We do not need mention karaiyars, a sri lanka tamil caste just use it for social mobility. So delete that for viewer's clear and simple understanding of mudaliar  title. In the view of karaiyar, we add senai mudali, kerala mudali, nanjil mudali,  agamudaya(tuluva vellala)mudali,  saiva vellala, they are rights to use it. But they are very meagre in population  compared  to sengunthar. So we edit it mostly kaikola sengunthars, rarely few communities ==

Clearcut understanding of the title for viewers Kavin Mudaliar (talk) 17:50, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Need to mention the exact users of 'mudali'
Respectable persons, i need to edit as,

The title used by"Senguntha kaikolar, Thondaimandala Vaelalar, Agamudayar(i.e., thuluva vaelalar and arcot mudaliar).   There is also  Karaiyar mudali, senai mudali,  melakkara mudali, nanjil mudali, kerala mudali, jaina mudali in samall ranges Kavin Mudaliar (talk) 11:42, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Agamudayar mudaliar
Please search google in arcot mudaliars. We dont miss it. Because arcot mudaliars are  dubashis,  educationalists,  rich persons  in british  empire  rhey are subsect of thuluva vaelalar  called them selves arcot mudali. (See tn forward caste list) It is surprise to you donot know them they are very prosperous and unavoidable. Plrase serch arcort narainasamy mudaliar, ramasamy mudaliar. Thuluva vaelalar called themselves  agamudaya  mudaliar. I am not agamudayar but i wish to notice clearly of mudaliar  page  so. Similarly kerala mudali nanjil mudali(please  see tn bc list),  senai mudali(search senaithalaivar ) melakkara r(isaivaelalar ) some jains in tanjore. They are small but significant. We donot neglect them. Kavin Mudaliar (talk) 06:52, 28 December 2019 (UTC) karaiyars are mudali but mostly known  as pattanavar

Other communities
No castes used it as tool for social upliftment. In tamilnadu govt backward  caste list you will see kerala  mudali, nanjil  mudali. All the casres are traditional users. Please show error  picture in the mi d of wiki viewers. Karaiyars donot use it primarily. Kavin Mudaliar (talk) 02:51, 29 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi Kavin Mudaliar. Thank you for opening a discussion at the talk page. However, there are major issues with your editing. The sources you have used such as  are not reliable sources (you need to be familiar with WP:RS). You have also added other content not supported by either your sources or other sources in the article (Senaithalaivar, Nanji Mudali etc.). Your edits are heavily based on your point of view and original research, which is unwanted in Wikipedia articles. You must get consensus before making such edits, otherwise it will lead to edit warring which is also unwanted on Wikipedia. Please read carefully through the links before any further edit. Xenani (talk) 16:39, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I think if a there's a source resp. evidence then I'd say it's not correct to remove it. What user Kavin Mudaliar is basically trying to push his view. It contains original research for me. --Luigi Boy ルアイヂ ボイtalk 20:42, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

Castes donot use mudali as tool for social mobility
No castes used it to represented themselves superior. Ochan, gadaba, panisava,  vanniyars are now donot use mudali title. So we donot mentioned  the line. Because we show exact and smart picture of mudaliar  in viewers mind. Kavin Mudaliar (talk) 03:25, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Can you please provide a source for your claim? It seems to me you're a little bit biased. Personal opinions don't count only facts! Thanks! --Luigi Boy ルアイヂ ボイtalk 17:12, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Vellalar mudaliar
Actually all vellalar donot use it. Only saivavellalar, thuluva vellalar use it. Other vellalars use pillai, gounder titles predominantly than mudaliar. Only thondaimandalam saiva, thuluva vellalar use it. I need to mentioned it. Kavin Mudaliar (talk) 08:25, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Karaiyar
In tamilnadu karaiyar known  as one sect of pattanavan which is fishermen community. Also the citation said they 'adopted 'it. Aldo they donot known as mudaliar  in tamil country. They known as pattanavan not mudaliar. It is my view to give clear idea to the viewers of wikipedia. it is unnecessary to mingle them into mudaliar. Kavin Mudaliar (talk) 08:28, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Other communities
It is wrong to mentioned as other communities use it for need high status from  actually held. Now no communities use like it. You said communities are ovachar, gadaba, panisiva, palli, jain. They donot use and donot known as mudaliar. Then why do hurt them. No other wiki pages like pillai, gounder, chettiar, are donot do it. So it is unnecessary Kavin Mudaliar (talk) 08:56, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
 * You can't remove sourced content, especially without consensus. You are again and again edit warring. You will most probably be blocked again if this continues. None of your statement has been properly cited with reliable sources, and are mostly based on original research. I understand you are new to wikipedia but you have to get familiar with the policies mentioned over (and earlier) before further editing. Xenani (talk) 21:59, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

Agamudayar
Where is the sourcefor agamudayar. Then why you mentioned them in first. Also all agamudayar donot use it. Kavin Mudaliar (talk) 04:26, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

Karaiyar
Karaiyar comeunder ceylonese mudaliar. In tamilnadu pattanavan 's one sect karaiyar. This karaiyar is different from thqt karaiyar. They are ceylonese mudaliar. Tamilnadu karaiyar  are pattanavan  not mudaliar. Also the citations said they ADOPTED  it. So thwy come under other communities. Ok Kavin Mudaliar (talk) 04:29, 29 January 2020 (UTC)


 * This is an article which elaborates the term Mudaliar so far the Ceylonese title comes also under this term because it shares common origin resp. idea. Only because a statement is not mentioned in a source of yours, it doesn't mean that the statement is incorrect. Your current interpretation of this title as a caste designation term doesn't mean that those communities who adopted it first have the ultimate sole right to bear it. Please refrain from any kind of fancy synthesis resp. own interpretation of sources. --Luigi Boy ルアイヂ ボイtalk 16:04, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

Agamudaya Mudaliar
Agamudaya Mudaliar reference and link to Agamudayar page is wrong. Agamudaya Mudaliar is the Title used by the caste Tuluva Vellala; not Agamudayar of south TN. Periyarist (talk) 18:52, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Mudaali source
Hi, looks like a random split was made at Mudaali. It did use this source: which I don't know if it is suitable/used or whatever. The rest of the info is already on this page. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 14:57, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

We are not using Raj-era sources like these in Wiki articles as it is a caste based article. It is better to remove the same. Outlander 07@talk 15:30, 21 January 2021 (UTC)