Talk:Muddy Waters/Archive 1

Influence
Any more about his influence? It's obvious his influence is almost undefinable, it seems we might be able to offer a better summary of the breadth of it. Anyone? -Wikitoddia 04:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

This wiki article has become a running joke amongst blues enthusiasts
This biography used to be good, but it has been turned into a useless piece of shit by too many grubby hands with pitiful knowledge.

It reads like something a bunch of myopic, uneducated white people would write.

I mean...ignoring the entire resurgence in the 70s, helped by Edgar Winter?

That was a strong part of the article and whoever deleted it should be banned from Wiki.

jgeiger54 01:14, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey hey, I don't think uneducated black people would do better than uneducated white people but I am white so maybe I don't know. Maybe you're white too, I don't know. Thanks though. I don't think that the use of micro-tones in his playing and singing is what made it hard for people play his music with him. It was common for blues singers to change structures to 13 bars or 11 bars or change to "quick change". This combined with his phrasing made it hard for many players, black or white to find the groove. My name is Kevin Mahoney and I approve this message. (What is a "micro tone" anyway? blah.)

The birth date is the least of this articles's problems
Here is one of the greatest blue man ever and the article is completely uninformative. It does not seem to understand his greatness. I don't understand why not. --Mattisse 01:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Muddy Waters.jpg
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Birthdate
The infobox and the lede say 1915. The second paragraph says, "Waters was born ... in 1913 (He later told people that he was born in 1915..." Let's fix this discrepancy. Biruitorul 22:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Image:Muddy1.gif
If anyone changes this infobox image, or adds any extra, please make sure you put a fair-use rationale otherwise it will be rapidly deleted, and this guy deffo deserves an image on his page Sue Wallace 16:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Flag
I see the flag icon I removed has been replaced. If anyone can provide an encyclopedic reason for keeping it here, I am fine for it to stay. Otherwise I think it should be removed. --John 14:30, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I re-established the the whole infobox after it was vandalised (see history). Since we are still reviewing the policy wouldn't it be best if we hold fire on the flag issue for now? Also it's in origin not in the disputed births/deaths. Sue Wallace 15:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Well done for repairing the vandalism. As there is no current policy, I would fall back on the question: "What does it add to the article, specifically what does the flag and the link to United States add to having just the link?" If there is a good answer to that, we keep it. If there is not it seems to me we could do without. --John 17:09, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In the absence of any reason being expressed here to keep it, I have removed it. --John 18:41, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

about that street ...
thanks for clarifying the sentence about the Chicago street named after him, but: the sources i'm looking at indicate that "honorary" is not part of the street name - it's plain Muddy Waters Drive; and can someone confirm that that name is still current, please and thank you? it's not on the current google map of Chicago, as far as i can see. if someone could specify which segment of 43rd Street it is/was, that would be great - between what intersections, i mean? thanks ... Sssoul (talk) 11:53, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Muddy Waters Logo?
I have to do a blues presontation at school and i was wondering if Muddy Waters had a logo so i could use it Shaunsomeone (talk) 08:42, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * i suggest checking his official website, which is listed in the "external links" section of the article. Sssoul (talk) 08:49, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot Shaunsomeone (talk) 11:36, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Muddy Waters' son
Larry Williams is now using the stage name Mud Morganfield. I changed it, but I don't now how to add the source. Here it is: http://www.myspace.com/muddywatersjr   Now, that says Muddy Waters Jr., but if you click on the link, you will see he changed it to Mud Morganfield. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chicagojuke (talk • contribs) 03:15, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

The First (introductory) Paragraph
Whether or not he is the father of Chicago Blues has no relevance to the fact that he may be the father of two childern (blues players). Those two items do not belong in the same paragrph. This introductory paragraph definitely needs some work. 

Also, it seems to me that statements regarding his being the father of Chicago blues, and who his children were need to be backed up wilth citations.

Congratulations on the research and explanation of Muddy Water's age discrepancy. It could be that he was born in a rural area where accurate birth records were not kept. Personally, I am amazed that Muddy Water's himself resonated so well with youthful rock and rollers such as Johnny Winters and Eric Clapton and etc., etc. It is obvious that his music resonates, but he was much older than any of these people. Yes, it is true that Johnny Winter and Eric Clapton and other rock and rollers were dynamite blues players, but they became popular because of their rock and roll recordings, not for playing the blues. Ti-30X (talk) 20:06, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

The First Cited Reference
The first cited reference is not a citation at all. It is a link to the BBC web page lightly dedicated to Muddy Waters along with other links. But the ironic or funny part is the BBC web page is using this very article as a biography for Muddy Waters. So who ever is using the first reference for a citation is actually citing this very article as a reference. Kind of circlular don't you think?

Again - on this BBC web page, after quoting the introductory paragraph of this article word for word, it says " This entry is from Wikipedia, the user-contributed encyclopedia. It may not have been reviewed by professional editors and is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License. If you find the biography content factually incorrect, defamatory or highly offensive you can edit this article at Wikipedia. Find out more about our use of this data."

Ti-30X (talk) 21:03, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


 * the reference evidently cites a previous version of the BBC page (check the "retrieved on" date). there are people who can unearth the previous versions of that page, but a] i'm not one of them and b] that's probably too elaborate to rely on in a reference. i'll change it. Sssoul (talk) 06:38, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

List of Singles
The current list of singles includes some tracks that were not released at the time they were recorded, and that never appeared on 78 and 45 rpm singles. Isn't the purpose of the list to present actual singles, in the order in which they were issued? -RLCampbell (talk) 21:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and some important singles (Feel Like Going Home etc.) are missing. I hope somebody will fix this. --128.214.200.215 (talk) 13:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Discography
Anyone willing to add a discography?

if you go here:- chelsy davis--68.153.117.128 (talk) 17:03, 12 April 2010 (UTC)--68.153.117.128 (talk) 17:03, 12 April 2010 (UTC)--68.153.117.128 (talk) 17:03, 12 April 2010 (UTC)--68.153.117.128 (talk) 17:03, 12 April 2010 (UTC)--68.153.117.128 (talk) 17:03, 12 April 2010 (UTC) john b anthony

http://www.bluesandrhythm.co.uk/classics.html

you can download a PDF of 'The Complete Muddy Waters Discography' by Phil Wight and Fred Rothwell

published by Blues & Rhythm magazine Neverslim (talk) 11:52, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Name filing
According to the Library of Congress and professional filing rules, Muddy Waters should be filed under M and not W : LC Control Number: n 82078503 HEADING: Muddy Waters, 1915-1983 Used For/See From: Waters, Muddy, 1915-1983 Morganfield, McKinley, 1915-1983 Muddy Waters is a stage name which has a meaning as a whole and not made up of a first name/last name (like Bob/Dylan for example). Poulit (talk) 10:29, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Problems
This paragraph is misleading:

Indeed, the birth of rock and roll can be simplified as an amalgamation of the music of Muddy Waters and Hank Williams. Both artists were popular contemporaries being soaked up in the musical melting pot of the Memphis, Tennessee area by the likes of Sam Phillips, and the artists he was beginning to record, including a young Elvis Presley.

In 1953-1955, when Memphis's contribution to the development of rock and roll was taking place, Muddy Waters's fame was mainly confined to Black fans in Chicago and other northern cities. The country side of rock and roll's development in Memphis had a lot more to do with Carl Perkins than with Hank Williams.

The album Electric Mud was a failure.


 * As a blues purist, 'Electric Mud' isn't really my thing but it wasn't a failure: it was by far Muddy most commercially succesful album on Chess.Haldraper (talk) 08:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion in the Comeback section as to which Luther Johnson was in Muddy's touring band. Was it Luther "Guitar Junior" Johnson or was it Luther "Snake Boy" Johnson. Both are linked to in this same section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.237.139.130 (talk) 00:17, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

born in 1913
I have been told by someone who knows a lot about blues that Muddy Waters was actually born in 1913, not 1915, and lied about his birthday often. Unless someone can tell me that this isn't true, I will make the change. Ezradf 18:56, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Here, this article from PBS's American Masters Series says 1913: Muddy Waters - American Masters

Okay, it's been a while and no one has objected, so I'm changing the date to his real birthday, 1913. Ezradf 02:32, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

His official website biography lists it as 1915, but doesn't provide any documentation for that date. Epicidiot 07:40, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Not to nitpick but now the article states 1913 in the summery at the top and 1915 in the childhood paragraph....


 * The article says he was born in 1915. The information box on the right says he was born in 1911.  That same box says he died in 1983 at age 70, which implies he was born in 1913.  Only one of these can be right, of course.  Mal7798 (talk) 23:22, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

His estimated age in the 1920 census is the best educated guess for his year of birth. A date he made up later is, by no means, his correct birthdate. He made up April 4, 1913. The date of birth can't be listed to make everything clean and neat. The best guess is 1915. Daviddaniel37 (talk) 22:36, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I found that this website: http://www.muddywaters.com/bio.html and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame website (http://www.rockhall.com/hof/inductee.asp?id=208) say that his birthdate was in 1915.

Geneaolgists and courts of law generally accept the earlist documentation of a birthdate as the most accurate. The earliest known document on which Muddy listed his own birth date is his marrigae license from the 1930s. The second earliest document on which he gave his own birthdate is his musicians union application in the mid 1940s. There are no examples or documents of him giving his birth year as 1915 until 1955 at the peak of his popularity, when he told an interviewer from the Chicago Defender that he was born in 1915. Most later published source give 1915, but the sources closer to the actual event are more likely to be accurate, not the sources further removed from the event in time. With this in mind, and in the absence of a birth certificate (which he never had), 1913 is most likely correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.253.212.84 (talk) 02:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

"...is most likely correct" (here above) is not the same with the statement "he was actually born..." as we have it in the article, so will make this change in phrasing. Hoverfish Talk 15:40, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

One thought to consider is that older men don't usually "hide" years from their age, they are rather proud of them. A young man, however, might have reasons to want to state he is older than he really is. Hoverfish Talk 16:02, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

External links is not a parking lot for sources. They belong here, on talk pages until they are used up
These sources do not ever belong in External links. I have moved the link farm from there to this talk page where they do belong. Warning: I didn't check them over, so be careful in choosing any references here. Thank you! --Leahtwosaints (talk) 06:10, 13 April 2012 (UTC)


 * "Muddy Waters."  Mississippi Writers and Musicians.
 * Muddy Waters entry at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame
 * PBS American Masters documentary
 * Muddy Waters Biography – Center Stage Chicago
 * Muddy Waters article from Mudcat Café
 * 1980 Induction into Blues Foundation Hall of Fame
 * Review of Breakin' It Up Breakin' It Down CD
 * The Complete Muddy Waters Discography
 * [//worldcat.org/identities/lccn-n82-78503 Works by or about Muddy Waters/Archive 1] in libraries (WorldCat catalog)

Concerned over possible plagiarism?
When glancing over the text in the "Comeback" section, I found the text to be identical to that found here: ]. "What came first? The chicken or the egg?" I don't know.. so I'm adding this issue here. I added one sentence there, that upon marrying the last time to Marva in 1973, Eric Clapton served as the best man in concert. I didn't reference it, and I am looking for it in print, as I saw it in a documentary somewhere on You Tube, and also on cable here in the USA, on channel 1811 MC- classic music as a note about a song. It's got to be in print someplace! --Leahtwosaints (talk) 02:47, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Muddy Waters. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090209134210/http://rockhall.com:80/exhibithighlights/500-songs-wz to http://www.rockhall.com/exhibithighlights/500-songs-wz/

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Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 17:21, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Familiar
In a glance at a few of the article's paragraphs, I noticed the subject (of the article) was "Muddy," as opposed to "Waters." Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.114.58.242 (talk) 19:24, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I've amended the article to comply with WP:SURNAME. Good catch on your part, thanks for calling attention to it.--JayJasper (talk) 19:40, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * You're welcome; I'm glad you thought it worth addressing. Actually, I didn't know Wikipedia had that surname rule; I guess I was just going by what I'd encountered in other Wikipedia articles.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.114.58.242 (talk) 23:14, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Per my edit, "Waters" is the second half of his stage name, not his surname. Haldraper (talk) 16:55, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Incorrect Beatles lyrics
The song "Come Together" by The Beatles references Muddy Waters: "He roller coaster/he got Muddy Waters." I believe those lyrics are actually He roller coaster, He got early warning, He got muddy water, He one Mojo filter — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.238.73 (talk) 10:51, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Muddy Waters. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090209134210/http://rockhall.com:80/exhibithighlights/500-songs-wz to http://www.rockhall.com/exhibithighlights/500-songs-wz/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 10:37, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Waters vs Muddy Waters in text
MOS:SURNAME includes "People who are best known by a pseudonym should be subsequently referred to by their pseudonymous surnames, unless they do not include a recognizable surname in the pseudonym (e.g. Sting, Snoop Dogg, The Edge), in which case the whole pseudonym is used." "Waters" is a common last name. His entries in the All Music Guide to the Blues, The Encyclopedia of Jazz and Blues, and the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (in the "W"s) refer to him throughout as "Waters". In Delta Blues, Ted Gioia refers to him as "Waters" and Joel Whitburn's Top R&B Singles 1942–1988 lists him in the Ws. —Ojorojo (talk) 13:42, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * It's a difficult one. In this case, is "Waters" a "pseudonymous surname"?  His major biography refers to him throughout, so far as I can see, as either "Muddy Waters" or "Muddy" - not "Waters".   I can understand indexers listing him under W rather than M, to give the appearance of consistency, but that still does not mean that "Waters" was his surname - it wasn't (it was Morganfield) - and the fact that other people have the surname Waters seems to me to be of no relevance at all to this article.  So, I would prefer the version prior to this edit, and to refer to him as "Muddy Waters" (or, where it's clear who is meant, "he") throughout.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:26, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Gordon refers to him throughout as "Muddy" (I have the bio). Willie Dixon also refers to him as Muddy in his autobiography, as do the musicians and others interviewed.  However, this seems too informal for an encyclopedia.  Are there any sources that use "Muddy Waters" throughout? —Ojorojo (talk) 15:13, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I've asked, at a Facebook forum populated by eminent blues writers from both sides of the Atlantic, if there is any consensus over style - and so far there doesn't seem to be. Some people do write about "Waters", while others don't.  Views of other editors are welcome here.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:20, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it is a difficult one. To muddy the waters even further on the issue, so to speak, John Lomax referred to him as "Muddy Water" in his notes for the 1941-42 Library of Congress recordings; which appears to have been the nickname from which Morganfield's professional nom de guerre originated. Personally, I lean toward Ghmyrtle's point of view, as I don't believe that "Waters" should be considered his surname and wouldn't expect him to be listed under "W" in an index. Jazzbo 17 (talk) 20:19, 21 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Obviously, Waters is not his surname, but has come to be used similarly for those not wishing to refer to him as Muddy, his original nickname. Gordon notes that "She [Della Grant, Waters' maternal grandmother] renamed him Muddy ... it would be years later, when he was establishing himself as a performer, that his friends would add "Water" to his name, and the final "s" would come in Chicago when McKinley's transformation was complete." (Can't Be Satisfied p. 9.) In a short excerpt from a 1991 interview, Lomax only refers to him as "Muddy." (liner notes to the Library of Congress recordings 1993 re-issue pp. 7–8.)  —Ojorojo (talk) 20:55, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

The clincher for me is that those who knew Muddy Waters, relatives, friends, bandmates, called him "Muddy" or "Mud": the Library of Congress follows that by listing him under "M". The "Mr Waters" thing is just sloppiness on the part of, generally white, critics akin to the TV presenter who addressed Howlin' Wolf as "Mr Wolf". Haldraper (talk) 07:38, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I mentioned the Facebook discussion above. I hope that Robert Pruter doesn't mind me quoting his comment here:"In Encyclopedia of the Blues, Robert Gordon refers to him as Muddy. The entry is under Waters, Muddy. Yet Howlin' Wolf is listed as Howlin' Wolf, and the writer refers to 'Wolf.' Technically neither Wolf nor Waters are last names. No author is given, which is interesting. They should have been consistent. I would have put Muddy Waters under 'Muddy Waters.' [Name removed] raises a good question. How exactly should these blues singers be rendered? For consistency I would say 'Wolf' and 'Waters,' but I think the editor made a wise decision to let the most common usage prevail. Little Walter is properly listed under 'Little Walter,' and naturally subsequent mentions is 'Walter.' While the author, Steven C. Tracy, refers usually to 'Muddy' he also refers to 'Waters.'"   No-one there has yet commented on my supplementary question about "Mr. Diddley"...    Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:51, 22 April 2016 (UTC)
 * If we are to follow common usage in text in reliable sources, the choices are "Muddy" or "Waters". Continual use of "Muddy Waters" throughout in text has not demonstrated. —Ojorojo (talk) 13:36, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't really see a problem with using his full nickname/stage name throughout, together with the pronoun "he", but if we have to choose I'd obviously go for "Muddy", as does his biographer Robert Gordon.

The page on Snoop Dogg is illuminating: after giving his real name in the lead, it either uses his full nickname/stage name or "Snoop", which is presumably what he's called by friends and others in the music business, just as Muddy Waters was called "Muddy" or "Mud". Haldraper (talk) 05:46, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Interesting, since Snoop Dogg is one of the examples included in MOS:SURNAME of when the whole pseudonym should be used. Perhaps repeating "Snoop Dogg" over and over again would look unnatural, since we are used to seeing a single name in subsequent use.  Using "Snoop" also gives a more personal, familiar tone.  Gordon probably faced the same choice with Muddy Waters – repeating "Muddy Waters" several times a page for 400 pages might seem stilted, so he shortened it to "Muddy", which is what his grandmother and acquaintances called him.  It works well in a biography with lots of personal details and recollections.  Other authors, writing shorter pieces, chose "Waters".  This also has the appearance of a last name, which fits with the standard practice of referring to a person by his surname in subsequent use.  Sonny Boy Williamson II (Rice Miller), Junior Wells (Amos Blakemore), et al., are usually referred to by their pseudonymous surnames rather than the whole pseudonym.  Pseudonyms without recognizable surnames, such as Bo Diddley, Slim Harpo, Guitar Shorty, etc. arguably are better candidates for the MOS:SURNAME whole pseudonym guideline.  This may be a situation that should be approached case-by-case following reliable sources rather than a bright-line rule.  —Ojorojo (talk) 14:24, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

The London Muddy Waters Sessions
In this page it says that the album released in 1970, while in the album's page is says 1972. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.183.139.107 (talk) 05:01, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Corrected: April 1972 according to discography in the Chess box; also added to Muddy Waters discography. —Ojorojo (talk) 13:35, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Electric Mud
The only reference in Gordon's bio connecting Electric Mud and Hendrix is parenthetical: "(Pete Cosey was later told by Jimi Hendrix's valet that before he'd perform, Jimi would play "Herbert Harper's Free Press News" from Electric Mud for inspiration. "The first guitarist was aware of was Muddy Waters," Hendrix said. "I heard one of his old records when I was a little boy and it scared me to death, because I heard all of those sounds. 'Wow, what is that all about?'")[Gordon 2002, p. 206]"

Cosey was one of the guitarists on EM; in his notes, Gordon identifies the valet as James Finney.[p. 354] Hendrix biographers identify Finney as a celebrity hairdresser, who Hendrix sometimes used around late 1969 and 1970. Miles Davis was also a client, for whom Posey recorded several albums.

EM was released in October 1968, about the same time as Hendrix's Electric Ladyland and well after Are You Experienced (5/67) and Axis: Bold as Love (12/67). If indeed Cosey's/Finney's claim is true, the EM track only "inspired" Hendrix late in his career. However, in researching several Hendrix biographies (Henderson, Shapiro, McDermottt (3), Murray, Mitchell, Redding, Brown, Black, Roby (3), Shadwick, and Cross), none mentioned that Hendrix was inspired, influenced, or even aware of EM. Hendrix often cited Waters as an influence, including in one of his earliest interviews in January 1967, shortly after his first record "Hey Joe";[Roby 2012, p. 6.] the quote that Gordon uses is from a Rolling Stone interview published in March 1968.[p. 326]

Hendrix is discussed as an influence on Cosey and the recordings with Miles Davis: "Hendrix haunts Agartha [Davis' 1975 album] from start to finish; Miles invokes him ceaselessly, both through guitarists Pete Cosey and Reggie Lucas and his own wah-wah processed trumpet and organ. Cosey launches into a series of... Hendrix's onomatopoeic guitar improvisations".[Murray 1989, p. 202.]  In any event, the statement in the article "Nonetheless, various musicians have cited the album's influence, including Jimi Hendrix,[25]" is not supported by Gordon or other available sources.

Also, the reference for Led Zeppelin and "Black Dog" appears to be from a user-generated website ("Since we can't cover everything we'd like to all by our lone-some, we'd like to invite online music fans to submit work for our magazine...") and should have a better source, preferably an actual quote from Jones.

—Ojorojo (talk) 14:52, 5 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I did a web search, and this random post on a Led Zeppelin forum may shed some light: it says that John Paul Jones did actually say several times that he got the riff from Electric Mud, but that someone figured out that he must have actually been talking about Howlin' Wolf's rendition of "Smokestack Lightning" from the similar The Howlin' Wolf Album, then tracked down Jones and got Jones to admit that he had confused the two albums. Of course, it's just a random internet comment, but he cites some published books, and if you listen to the song, it does seem to check out, rhythm-wise. So I think it's fine to drop the Led Zeppelin thing.
 * Probably fine to drop the Hendrix reference too - as you note, he had already fully developed his style by the time Electric Mud came out. Korny O&#39;Near (talk) 15:28, 5 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Sometimes even the pros get it wrong?!? Here's a different "Smokestack" connection. —Ojorojo (talk) 15:57, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

9/17 addition of unreferenced material
Several statements have been added without citations to reliable sources. These include opinion-type claims "a then-unknown Buddy Guy", "not a commercial success, but it was lauded by critics", "perhaps due to the album's commercial success", "longtime fans of Waters whose desire to play with him was the impetus", "It was the most successful album", etc.

Their are several biographies and encyclopedia entries about Waters – there is no reason these can't be used to support additions to the article. Perhaps a review of WP policies, such as WP:Verifiability, WP:Identifying reliable sources, and WP:Citing sources would be helpful. This would help cut down on a lot of the original research found in music articles.

—Ojorojo (talk) 14:07, 11 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes - for the most part I got lazy and just copied/paraphrased content from the Wikipedia articles about those 60s albums. You're right that it all needs to be cited. Korny O&#39;Near (talk) 15:08, 11 September 2017 (UTC)


 * MusicTAP doesn't appear to be a RS (reader-submitted content with no indication of editorial oversight) – I've replaced with Gordon. Also the access dates were indicated as January 28, 2012 and February 13, 2011 for the Billboard ref.  The dates the citations are added should be used. —Ojorojo (talk) 16:19, 12 September 2017 (UTC)


 * Alright, good point, and thanks for adding good references. Korny O&#39;Near (talk) 20:13, 12 September 2017 (UTC)


 * The EM material really is more appropriate for the album article(s). Plus I'm unconvinced about Hendrix – why isn't his "embracing" mentioned in any of the many bios I cited above? The NPR ref is tentative: "was apparently one of Jimi Hendrix's favorite Muddy Waters records" (my emphasis). Also what is "Traces of its raggedly fuzzy ethos have informed music by The White Stripes and Black Keys, among others" supposed to mean?  That the writer hears it in their music?  —Ojorojo (talk) 23:46, 12 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't know... having some familiarity with all of the music involved, I also can't imagine how NPR can specifically tell that these bands were influenced by Electric Mud and not one of the hundreds of other blues + psychedelia albums of the time. Maybe there are some quotes from the artists involved. Personally, at this point I'm about to ready to drop all the "reaction of other musicians to Electric Mud" bits. There's no strong evidence that this album had much of an impact, certainly not compared to his 50s material. Korny O&#39;Near (talk) 00:53, 13 September 2017 (UTC)


 * I see now that you had already deleted those parts when I wrote that. I guess we've reached some consensus, then. Korny O&#39;Near (talk) 01:58, 13 September 2017 (UTC)

Muddy Waters Death
Hello!

I noticed that the entirety of the section about muddy waters death has been copied and pasted from the site https://upclosed.com/people/muddy-waters/. This is a violation of the Wiki guidelines and I'm not quite sure if this is a reliable source. I have found more reliable information from the NYTimes archives, as well as Chicago Tribune that I believe is more legitimate. This is what I propose the paragraph be changed to:

" In the early morning of April 30th, 1983 Muddy Waters passed away in his sleep from a suspected heart attack from cancer-related complications . He was transported from his Westmont home, which he lived in for the last decade of his life, to Good Samaritan Hospital in Downers Grove, IL . There he was pronounced dead at the age of 68. The funeral service was held on May 4th, 1983 at Restvale Cemetery in south suburban Alsip, IL. Relatives of McKinley Morganfield, better known as blues singer Muddy Waters, embrace and weep during his funeral services at Restvale Cemetery in south suburban Alsip, Ill. on May 4, 1983.

A lengthy legal battle ensued between Waters heirs and Scott Cameron, Waters former manager, following his untimely death. In 2010 Waters' heir was petitioning for the courts to appoint Mercy Morganfield, Muddy Waters daughter, as administrator and distribute remaining assets, which mainly consists of copyrights to Waters' music.

In 2017 the city of Chicago dedicated a ten story mural on the side of the building at 17 North State Street, at the corner of State and Washington Streets. It was commissioned as a part of the Chicago Blues Festival and designed by Brazilian artist Eduardo Kobra "

I could not find any reliable information regarding who attended the funeral so if anyone finds anything on that feel free to add!


 * It's actually the other way around, i.e., the UpClosed.com website copied the Wikipedia article. UpClosed.com has a small-font notice down at the bottom of their article, but it's easy to miss it. ("The contents of this page are sourced from a Wikipedia article.") That said, the most important thing is that you were alert for potential copyright violations, and you researched reliable sources to help resolve the (perceived) problem. That is awesome! The Wikipedian learning curve--at least for me--has been built upon a foundation filled with my mistakes. (How's that for mixing metaphors? ;o)  If any of the references you found have not already been used, and if they would enhance the article, be bold and edit as you see fit! All the best  - Mark D Worthen PsyD   (talk)  12:10, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Wow can't believe I missed that! thank you, this is my first time editing so I'm glad that I posted here first to get some feedback! The information that is there still is not cited should I just leave that? As of now I added what I found that was not already on the page and left the uncited information that was already there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:2010:7250:906F:A8D8:5F14:8E5C (talk) 20:19, 2 July 2018 (UTC)


 * That makes good sense to me. :O) ... (remember to sign your remarks on a Talk page with four tildes: ~ )  - Mark D Worthen PsyD   (talk)  05:28, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Gaining custody of two of his children?
Can someone explain how he needed to gain custody of his own children? Had there been a divorce? Or were they ex-nuptial? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:44B8:3102:BB00:8569:4CF3:11AA:4FAF (talk) 20:46, 10 December 2019 (UTC)