Talk:Muhammad

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Please read Talk:Muhammad/FAQ for answers to these frequently-asked questions (you need to tap "Read as wiki page" to see the relevant text):
 * 1) Shouldn't all the images of Muhammad be removed because they might offend Muslims?
 * 2) Aren't the images of Muhammad false?
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 * 4) Why does the infobox at the top of the article contain a stylized logo and not a picture of Muhammad?
 * 5) Why is Muhammad's name not followed by (pbuh) or (saw) in the article?
 * 6) Why does the article say that Muhammad is the "founder" of Islam?
 * 7) Why does it look like the article is biased towards secular or "Western" references?
 * 8) Why can't I edit this article as a new or anonymous user?
 * 9) Can censorship be employed on Wikipedia?
 * 10) Because Muhammad married an underage girl, should the article say he was a pedophile?

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genocide perpetrator
I think that we should add this category because he committed Invasion of Banu Qurayza. Sharouser (talk) 13:39, 28 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Well he is included on the category list. Ip says: Work Better yes. (talk) 14:36, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Removed that cat per WP:CATVER. Which WP:RS says this was a genocide, and what content do you suggest adding to the Muhammad article based on them? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:20, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not saying it's an unreasonable notion, but taking "Consequently, 600–900 men of Banu Qurayza were executed. The women and children were distributed as slaves, with some being transported to Najd to be sold." from "war" to "genocide" needs decent sources doing the lifting. That's my view. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Well then we may have to add Moses and many others from ancient times. O3000, Ret. (talk) 19:26, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There were three Jewish tribes that were in a treaty with the Muhammad, and these tribes all violated the treaty, with hostile attitude, communications with the enemy, and an intent and attempt to fight the Muslims and assassinate Muhammad. The two tribes Banu Qainuqa and Banu Nadir were merely exiled due to their insistance in hostility and danger to security, but one of them, Banu Qurayza, were a degree higher in treachery, and were incited by Quraysh to oppose the Muhammad and the Muslims, so there was no choice but to fight against it from a security standpoint. Now, in terms of the number that is spread of how many were killed, this is debated, by analysing whether such a number was possible and what the origin of the claimed number is, as well as asking: "who was killed?"; because killing civilians is prohibited in Islam, so this would indicate whatever number was killed were combatants, but we cannot even accurately confirm how many were killed in the first place. Academically, you cannot just mention one thing and conveniently not mention the reason for it, and none can rely on a historian's estimation when he did not witness it as a reliable number of the death toll. In any case, what is expected it a treaty is broken in such a way? Your edit suggestion to me seems ingenuine and has sprouted as a result of modern day events. MahmoudBinOmar (talk) 07:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It might not be a bad idea to mention it somewhere in the article, but I'm not sure I'd use genocide unless this was actually the entirety of their population DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 13:49, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Why? The term genocide does not refer to the entirety of a population: "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group"Dimadick (talk) 15:12, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. I guess if there's a evidence they specifically went after only that ethnic group that's different but if they just did that to anyone in the city that's not the same thing. DuneEnjoyer333 (talk) 15:23, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Patronymic name extension on 15 May 2024
Extend the info box patronymic to include what is verified up to Muhammad's forefather Adnan

Ibn ʿAbd Allāh ibn ʿAbd al-Muṭṭalib ibn Hāshim ibn ʿAbd Manāf ibn Quṣayy ibn Kilāb ibn Murrah ibn Ka'b ibn Lu'ayy ibn Ghālib ibn Fihr ibn Mālik ibn An-Nadr ibn Kinānah ibn Khuzaymah ibn Mudrika ibn Ilyās ibn Mudar ibn Nizār ibn Ma'add ibn 'Adnān

ٱبْن عَبْد ٱللَّٰه بْن عَبْد ٱلْمُطَّلِب بْن هَاشِم بْن عَبْد مَنَاف بْن قُصَيّ بْن كِلَاب بْن مُرّة بْن كَعْب بْن لُؤَيّ بْن غَالِب بْن فِهْر بْن مَالَك بْن النَّضْر بْن كِنَانَة بْن خُزَيْمَة بْن مُدْرِكَة بْن إِلْيَاس بْن مُضَر بْن نِزَار بْن مَعَدّ بْن عَدْنَان MahmoudBinOmar (talk) 07:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Source? Preferably a modern-day historian, in English if possible, but other languages are fine, as long as the source is WP:RS. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  Mel ma nn   19:49, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Night Journey Information Incorrect
The claim that the Quran does not refer to the ascension into Heaven (Mi'raj) is false. This is a topic discussed in Surah An-Najm, verses 13-18. I will push changes once I've analyzed the relevant content and determined what revisions need to take place. Emperor Ibrahim I (talk) 07:09, 17 May 2024 (UTC)


 * The cited source clearly supports the content:
 * Here at Wikipedia, we only report what reliable independent sources (see WP:SOURCE), in this case secular academic sources, say. Not users' original research. —  Kaalakaa  (talk)  08:52, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Here at Wikipedia, we only report what reliable independent sources (see WP:SOURCE), in this case secular academic sources, say. Not users' original research. —  Kaalakaa  (talk)  08:52, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

The Satanic Verses & Banu Qurayza
Throughout Muslim and Non-Muslim sources, there is not a single "Sahih" (Authentic) report of the Satanic verses incident. Every one of these is either "Sahih Mursal" (Sahih in chain but disconnected) or lower such as "Da'if" (Weak). QcTheCat (talk) 03:52, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

This article states that the most "authentic reports" tell us that there is no evidence of the Banu Qurayza's break of the treaty. But there very clearly is. Banu Qurayza also did not deny the accusation, this is completely false. As we see in Taarekh At Tabari:

Banu Qurayza Leaders to attackers: "There is no treaty between us and Mohammed and no covenant." (The History of Tabari: Events of the Year 5)

There are many more but I'll include one to start the conversation

QcTheCat (talk) 04:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)


 * You say sahih this sahih that, then you quote Tabari. Did Tabari give labels to each account of his books, whether they were sahih, hasan, daif, etc.? No, not to my knowledge. Besides, Tabari also recounts the event of The Satanic Verses (vol. VI, SUNY Press, pp. 107-112). Regardless, we at Wikipedia only report what reliable independent sources say (see WP:SOURCE), which in this case are secular academic sources, and as far as I know they don't categorize reports as sahih, hasan, daif, etc. If they consider an event to have happened, then we report it, simple as that. Also, please read our policies regarding WP:OR and WP:NOTCENSORED before becoming WP:TIMESINK to other editors. —  Kaalakaa  (talk)  06:28, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Well actually, The "secular academic sources" have to take a bulk of their information from Muslim sources because they were the earliest sources of information about Islam. As for At-Tabari, he was a scholar of Qur'an exegesis (Tafsir) and an Islamic historian. Whenever he provides some information, he gives an Isnad (chain of narrations), meaning he provides the narrators who inform him of the topic and how they received their information. It is then up to the scholars of Uloom al Hadith (Hadith Science) to check whether the Isnad is authentic. For example, for the Satanic verses. Imam Tabari provides this chain of narrators:
 * Abu Al Aliya > Dawud > Mu'tamir > At-Tabari
 * Here the primary source is Abu Al Aliya, however he is a second generation Muslim, which means the narration is disconnected. TLDR is that the primary source was not an eyewitness or an earwitness and therefore we cannot rely upon this report. An academic sources may mention this report to show difference of opinions at the time, but the fact is that this report and thus any academic sources that takes from it is not providing authentic information.
 * However with the report in the History of At-Tabari (Taarekh At Tabari) where he reports on the deceit of Banu Qurayza, he reports it as a fact that is confirmed. The whole narration of Kab bin Assad's (Banu Qurayza's chief) breaking of his treaty with Mohammad can be found in "The History of At-Tabari" Vol. 8 Events Of Year 5, pg.15 QcTheCat (talk) 02:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Did you actually open and read the links I provided above to some of Wikipedia's policies? If you were writing for an encyclopedia dedicated to spreading Islam, then maybe your original research would matter, but not here. We simply report what reliable independent sources say, which in this case means secular academic sources. And we don't censor things because they're considered offensive to followers of religions. —  Kaalakaa  (talk)  04:43, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Did you even read what I said in my reply. I am not asking you to change the article to make it "non-offensive", I never said that. I have no problem with it not being "Islamic", I am explaining that the information is objectively inaccurate. The article says:
 * "no evidence substantiates such an attack (by Banu Qurayza), and the tradition had every reason to dramatize the incident as a justification for the subsequent massacre."
 * Yet, You will see that even the sources quoted in the article such as Maxime Robinson's "Muhammad" quote early Muslim sources and say that the sources they used did not seem to find any evidence for Banu Qurayza's disobedience. But what I am saying is that there is clear evidence for Banu Qurayza's disobedience that perhaps. So, If I can bring an objective historically accurate proof against the position of the current sources then the source should be reconsidered. I quoted you At-Tabari. At-Tabari provides historic proof that Banu Qurayza did in fact break their treaty in his
 * 1. "History of At-Tabari" It seems like you didn't take me seriously and didn't check the source I provided. Vol. 8 Events Of Year 5, pg.15
 * 2. And also there is more proof in Sirat Bin Ishaq.
 * These are very concrete sources which academic sources quote much, these sources prove Banu Qurayza's responsibility in their execution QcTheCat (talk) 06:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Tabari, as well as other early Islamic sources, are primary sources that are not independent (having conflicts of interest), mixed with legendary tales from Muslim narrators, and so on. It is the task of independent secondary sources, or, in this case, secular academic sources, to determine which of the stories are facts or mere fabrications, not the task of Wikipedia users. See WP:PSTS: "All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." —  Kaalakaa  (talk)  07:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * QcTheCat (talk) 09:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * There are many secular secondary and tertiary sources which mention the deceit and break of the treaty by Banu Qurayza. One of these is a book by WM Watt, one of the most quoted Historians for Islamic Wikipedia pages. In his book Muhammad, Prophet and Statesman, He said:
 * They (Banu Qurayza) had been intriguing with Muhammad’s enemies and at one point had been on the verge of attacking Muhammad in his rear. They had thus been guilty of treasonable activities against the Medinan community.
 * ("Muhammad, Prophet and Statesman" Ch.6 pg.171 by WM Watt)
 * I have provided two primary sources:
 * 1. "History of At-Tabari"
 * 2. "Sirat bin Ishaq"
 * And now one secondary source too:
 * "Muhammad, Prophet and Statesman" QcTheCat (talk) 09:50, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "On the verge of attacking" here simply means "They were close to attacking, but ultimately did not carry out the attack at all." And this report comes from Islamic sources written by Muslims several hundred years after Muhammad's death (they clearly had conflicts of interest there). So I see this as not really contradicting the Rodinson and Gabriel sources, which say more or less "but no evidence substantiates such an attack, and the tradition had every reason to dramatize the incident as a justification for the subsequent massacre". —  Kaalakaa  (talk)  10:05, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * As WM Watt says, Banu Qurayza were "intriguing with Muhammad’s enemies" and at "The verge of attacking". I have already told you in every one of my responses, Banu Qurayza broke their treaty. I never said they massacred the Muslims, If that was the case, Islam wouldn't exist today. Banu Qurayza had negotiations with the Quraysh, and then were prepared to attack. That is a very clear break of their treaty which states that they were not to share resources, plot against the Muslims or attack, etc. How is punishment for breaking of a treaty that was almost to result in a massacre of the Muslims, considered a "dramatisation". QcTheCat (talk) 17:46, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Watt seems pretty clear. If there are contradictory sources that present alternative narratives, those can also be mentioned, but I can't see a reason to rule out what Watt plainly states. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * So the Qurayza only "prepared to attack" but did not actually carry out the attack, is that right? Which means that there were no casualties caused by Qurayza to the Muslims at all, right? But Muhammad then decided that all the adult men of Qurayza had to be killed and their women and children enslaved, with some sold to Najd to finance the purchase of weapons and horses for the Muslims, right? And all of this, including the claim that Qurayza was preparing to attack, is based on Muslim sources, right? This does not seem to me to contradict Rodinson's and Gabriel's analyses above, more or less: "But no evidence substantiates such an attack, and the tradition had every reason to dramatize the incident as a justification for the subsequent massacre." Considering that Muhammad had also intended to massacre another Jewish tribe, Banu Qaynuqa, before this, which failed to be realized after the chief of Khazraj, Abdullah ibn Ubayy, threatened him. In the end, that other Jewish tribe was only expelled, with their possessions becoming the property of Muhammad and his followers. — Kaalakaa  (talk)  20:37, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think you are understanding what I am explaining. Breaking of the Banu Qurayza's Treaty took place with "Negotiations with Quraysh" and "Preparation for attack". Negotiations with Quraysh does not mean a little dinner, it means supplying weapons, funding the Quraysh. This funding was going to Quraysh's army to attack Medina.
 * And this is from secular academic sources themselves, as Karen Armstrong says in her book "Muhammad":
 * "Initially Qurayza were hesitant, but when they saw the vast Meccan army filling the plain in front of the city as far as the eye could see, their chief agreed to help the confederacy and provide the Quraysh with weapons and supplies."
 * (Karen Armstrong's "Muhammad" Ch.4 "Jihad", Pg.148)
 * If a group of people from the USA government started sending funding to the Chinese military during a war, they all would also be executed. Would that be called a "dramatisation" and a "massacre"? QcTheCat (talk) 03:32, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, as I proved by Sahih Muslim 1766, This kind of act of treason added to what I will mention soon, was considered as waging war and Banu Qurayza knew this, they had done this on a smaller scale before:
 * "The Jews of Banu Nadeer and Banu Quraiza waged war against the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, so he expelled Banu Nadeer but he allowed Banu Quraiza to stay and he granted them favor until they also waged war after that." (Muslim 1766)
 * Also, then Muhammad didn't outright put them all to death. He sent Sad bin Muadh to negotiate and make peace:
 * "He sent Sa‘d ibn Muadh, who had been Qurayzah’s chief Arab ally before the hijrah, to negotiate, but to no avail." (Karen Armstrong's "Muhammad" ch.4 pg.148)
 * And along with this, Banu Qurayza actually did do some action themselves:
 * "At one point, the Qurayza actually started to attack the fortresses on the southeast of the settlement, but the effort petered out. For about three weeks, it was quite unclear which way they would go." (Ibid ch.4 pg.148)
 * Attacking a fortress, supplying the enemy with Military aid, denying peace treaty even when prompted, knowing this to be an act of waging war. This is a clear form of treason, extended to even a war. Almost every country in the world considers this to punishable by death QcTheCat (talk) 03:43, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This is the first time I have heard of it. Can you provide the early Islamic sources, as you always seem to be keen on doing? Personally, I do not consider Karen a reliable source, but merely an author. If she is considered a reliable source, then Robert Spencer is a super reliable source. I never use Robert either, though, and I do not consider him reliable.
 * Really? Are their children and women also enslaved and sold to buy horses and weapons?
 * You seem to misunderstand. The dramatization here means that the story (the one used to justify the massacre) was probably riddled with fabrications. And Rodinson and Gabriel believe that the Muslims had every reason to do so (fill the story with fabrications to justify the massacre).
 * If they killed them en masse, of course.
 * Why did you not copy these parts of the hadith as well?
 * "Then he killed their men, and distributed their women, children and properties among the Muslims, ... The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) turned out all the Jews of Medina."
 * This is also the first time I've heard this. Can you provide early Islamic sources that mention the part "to negotiate, but to no avail"? —  Kaalakaa  (talk)  04:37, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 1. I already gave you the early source, Sahih Muslim 1766:
 * "The Jews of Banu Nadeer and Banu Quraiza waged war against the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, so he expelled Banu Nadeer but he allowed Banu Quraiza to stay and he granted them favor until they also waged war after that."
 * Waging war and breaking the treaty were two different occurences. The treaty was broken by Kab, and war was waged when the tribe sent weapons and ammunition
 * 2. Any source I provide you have just written off. Tabari? He's probably just imagining, and no justification for this explanation was given. Watt? Oh he just meant they were having dinner with Quraysh nothing more, this I disproved too. Armstrong? She isn't reliable either, and all the scholars who have praised her work are just deluded? I get that you likely don't mean to actually deny proper evidence. But you are going to have to give me a criterion for what you consider reliable since you have already written of 3 formal historians.
 * 3. This is ridiculous. Banu Qurayza waged a war as I explained with sources, and in those times, all men were expected to work together to make an army for the tribe. Therefore the militants who were the men were executed, and the women and children were taken as captives of war, and were to be given all the rights a regular Muslim was given according to Islamic law, such as right to continue family, the master was obliged to provide food and water he would expect for himself, etc. the only thing they were excluded from was payment. Some of them would have probably been freed too because freeing slaves was a massive part of Muslim culture.
 * 4. There is absolutely ZERO proof for fabrications in the story. A claim presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Even though, I have already provided you evidence but that's just an extra at this point.
 * 5. Early source for Sad bin Muadh's trying to consolidate the Banu Qurayza and Muslims? I gave you your academic sources that you kept demanding and now you are asking for the early sources that you keep denying? Fine, Here's the early source then:
 * '''the Messenger of God sent out Sa'd b. Mu'adh b. al-Nu'man and Imru' al-Qays and said: "Go and see whether what has reached us about these men is true or not. If it is true, speak to me in words that we can understand but that will be unintelligible to others, and do not break the strength of the people. But, if these men remain loyal to the pact between us and them, announce it to the people. So they went out and came to them. They found them engaged in the worst of what had been reported about them. They slandered the Messenger of God and said, "There is no treaty between us and Muhammad and no covenant.""
 * (The History of Tabari, vol.8 pg.15)'''
 * 6. Now, explain to me after all this evidence I have given you and you have just denied with very little explanation. What kind of evidence would it require for you to admit fault in the current sources and article? QcTheCat (talk) 06:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And the proof for Slave treatment laws that were applied to the captives of Banu Qurayza and all slaves in general is found in several Hadith such as:
 * ‘Your slaves are your brethren upon whom Allah has given you authority. So, if one has one’s brethren under one’s control, one should feed them with the like of what one eats and clothe them with the like of what one wears. You should not overburden them with what they cannot bear, and if you do so, help them (in their hard job).’” (Sahih al-Bukhari 2545) QcTheCat (talk) 08:12, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Looking at this other hadith, it seems that it was Muhammad who started the war after receiving instructions from the angel Gabriel:
 * This further proves that we should not blindly follow sources that have a conflict of interest. Incidentally, I couldn't find what Karen mentioned in the hadith you quoted and the one I quoted, so I'm not sure where she got that information. Karen only majored in English, which is not at all relevant to the subject. Her book is at best equivalent to a novel. Regarding your original research, which includes an apologia for Muhammad's massacre of the Banu Qurayza men and the enslavement of their women and children, some of whom were sent to Najd to be sold to fund the purchase of weapons and horses for the Muslims, I will refrain from commenting on that for now, so this thread doesn't go further deviating from the purpose of making an encyclopaedia. —  Kaalakaa  (talk)  04:30, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm now sure what part of Watt's "intriguing with the enemy" is unclear. Within the context this was treasonous conduct, and treasonous conduct, throughout all human history, has been dealt with harshly. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:02, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It is important to note that all reports from that time are from the Muslim side. And we don't know for sure whether there really was a treaty between Muhammad and them or not.
 * Bernard Lewis says that the "treaty" Muhammad enacted, which was also concerning the Jews there, is "not a treaty in the modern sense, but rather a unilateral proclamation."
 * This publication from Liverpool University Press says that Muhammad fought the Jews “through trickery.”
 * The Encyclopaedia of Islam, published by Brill, says that the transcription of the conversation between the chief of Banu Nadir and the chief of Banu Qurayza reported by Muslims is “open to grave doubt."
 * It has already been stated in our article that “Muhammad besieged the tribe, alleging they had taken sides against him, which they firmly denied.” I think that's enough to impartially convey what happened at the time, rather than parroting everything said by Muslim sources who clearly have a conflict of interest. —  Kaalakaa  (talk)  02:16, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It is true that all the reports of this treaty are from the Muslim side. However, histories can only be written on proof. We can speculate on what happened, but history can only be described by whichever claim has most evidence, and in this case, a proper treaty is the most authentic claim, and we have proof of this:
 * The enemy of God, Huyayy b. Akhtab, went out and came to Ka'b b. Asad al-Qurazi, who was the possessor of the treaty and covenant of the Band Qurayza. Ka'b had made a truce with the Messenger of God for his people, making a contract and covenanting with him on it. (History of Tabari vol.8 Pg.14)
 * The enemy of God Huyayy b. Akhțab al-Nadri went out to Ka'b b. Asad al-Qurazi who had made a treaty with the apostle. (Sirat bin Ishaq part III pg. 453)
 * The news finally reached the Muslims that the Banu Qurayza had broken their agreement. Fear intensified and the trial became overwhelming.
 * (Al Waqidi's Kitab Al Maghazi vol.2 pg.225)
 * On the same page of Kitab Al Maghazi, Al Waqidi reports with proof via a mention of narrator:
 * Ibn Abı Sabra related to me from Harith b. al-Fudayl saying:
 * The Banu Qurayza intended to raid the main part of Medina by night. They sent
 * Huyayy b. Akhtab to the Quraysh to bring with them a thousand men, and from the
 * Ghatafan a thousand, to attack them.
 * Ibn Sad also narrated
 * Abu Sufyan Ibn Harb sent Huyayy Ibn Akhtab on a secret mission to Banu Qurayza requesting them for violating the agreement (عهد) they had made with the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, and join them (polytheists). (At first) they declined. but subsequently they agreed
 * Ibn Sad's Kitab Tabaqat al Kabir vol.2 pg.82)
 * And this claim is also supported by scholars such as R.B. Serjeant who was one of the leading Arabists in 20th century Britain
 * "Treaty concluded prior to Khandaq among the Arabs of Yathrib and with the Jewish Qurayzah, to defend it from Quraysh of Mecca and their allies"
 * (The "Sunnah Jāmi'ah," Pacts with the Yaṯẖrib Jews, and the "Taḥrīm" of Yaṯẖrib Pg. 9)
 * Is it actually possible for this many sources across different time periods to agree on 100% of the details of a fabricated event? No, these sources I have quoted here are the earliest Islamic biographical works in history. And then I even quote secular academic scholars as requested such as R.B. Serjeant who is highly praised in his community. And he completely agrees, because there is simply such a vast abundance of evidence in favour of:
 * A proper treaty with Banu Qurayza, which was later broken by Banu Qurayza's chief Kab bin Assad after temptation from Huyayy bin Akhtab, and not upheld even after Sad bin Muadh's and other Sahabi's (companions of the prophet) attempts a reconciliation. And that too with physical force from Banu Qurayza too.
 * There is simply no conflict of interest, otherwise we would expect at least a few early sources which deny the treaty and its violation, but it is simply not there.
 * And as for the hadith you quoted Bukhari 4122. I appreciate that you quoted an early source. However hadith such as those found in Sahih Bukhari are not histories and often provide simplified explanations. Hadiths (أحاديث) are "narrations" which means that they are quotes from people not full stories. We can only reconcile hadiths with other hadiths to compile a full story, and in this case we have to reconcile it with the hadith in Sahih Muslim which unequivocally states that Banu Qurayza waged war. QcTheCat (talk) 06:05, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And another source for Banu Qurayza's violation of treaty is Academic Jonathan AC Brown's book "Muhammad, a short introduction" where Brown writes:
 * The Banu Qurayza Jews, whose compounds lay outside the defences of the town, broke their treaty with Muhammad and sold provisions to the Meccans.
 * (Jonathan AC Brown's "Muhammad, A very short introduction" Part 1 Pg. 42)
 * And there is more on the next page
 * But first Muhammad faced the question of the Banu Qurayza Jews. They had betrayed their non-aggression pact with the Muslims, and as the Meccan army left, they blockaded themselves in their forts and prepared for a Muslim siege.
 * (Ibid Pg.43)
 * Now I have given 4 modern sources, 3 of them are scholars
 * And 5 early Muslim scholars QcTheCat (talk) 08:13, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Brown is Sunni and follows the Hanbali school of Islamic jurisprudence." So not really independent there. The rest of your argument seems to be mostly WP:OR.
 * Furthermore, as Bernard Lewis said, the so-called treaty is "not a treaty in the modern sense, but rather a unilateral proclamation."
 * This publication from Liverpool University Press says that Muhammad fought the Jews “through trickery.”
 * The Encyclopaedia of Islam, published by Brill, states that the transcription of the conversation between the chief of Banu Nadir and the chief of Banu Qurayza reported by Muslims is "open to grave doubt."
 * This publication from the University Press of Florida written by military historian Russ Rodgers says:
 * Another military historian, Richard A. Gabriel, whose book was published by the University of Oklahoma Press says:
 * One thing that's almost certain is: "Muhammad besieged the tribe, alleging they had taken sides against him, which they firmly denied.” And that has already been stated in our article. —  Kaalakaa  (talk)  09:45, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Before giving a reply, I request you to read the reply, not just quickly glance over, because you seem to have missed every major point I made in my last replies.
 * 1. How does being a Muslim automatically turn you into "not independent". This very same Wikipedia pages quotes Brown's very same book "Muhammad, a very short introduction" more than twice, once for Aisha's age and once for Mohammad's proposal to Fakhita bint Abi Talib. When it is about Aisha or Fakhita, Brown is a good source. When it is about Banu Qurayza, he isn't independent because of Islam? This is simply double standards.
 * 2. This isn't WP:OR, WP:OR states:
 * "Articles must not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves."
 * At Tabari, Ibn Ishaq, Al Waqidi, Ibn Sa'd all state that Banu Qurayza had a treaty and it was broken. Which part is "not clear" here?
 * 3. You pretty much ignored all the evidence I gave and just quoted Bernard Lewis (someone who has been accused of Islamophobia by several academics), Liverpool University, Encyclopaedia of Islam again. I brought you evidence specifically to show that the points these sources made are incorrect. Seems like you didn't read my reply, just quoting the same quotes disregarding all the evidence is confirmation bias.
 * 4. Russ Rodger doesn't explain the whole situation like I explicitly told you to look into. Muhammad came to know that Kab bin Assad violated the treaty. After the Quraysh retreated and there was no more threat, Jibreel told him to attack Qurayza for their treachery. There is no contradiction, they are two different events that happened. And Gabriel says that there is no evidence, yet I have given you 9 sources of evidence to disprove his claim.
 * 5. I already asked you once and I will ask again, what proof do you need to change the article's misinformation? I request you to look back at the sources I have provided, they are:
 * '''1. History of Tabari
 * 2. Sirat Ibn Ishaq
 * 3. Tabaqat al Kabir 
 * 4. Kitab al Maghazi 
 * 5. Sahih Muslim
 * 6. Karen Armstrong's, Muhammad 
 * 7. Muhammad, Prophet and Statesman 
 * 8. The "Sunnah Jami'ah," Pacts with the Yathrib Jews, and the "Tahrim" of Yathrib
 * 9. Muhammad, a short introduction QcTheCat (talk) 14:52, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @QcTheCat: Two things can both be said at once on a Wikipedia page, i.e.: a presentation of what is contained in those nine sources AND whatever other analysis is out there. The first step is not always altering existing information. You can start by simply adding any omitted interpretation. Pages are allowed to present conflicting interpretations. Wikipedia information is verifiable, not true. If there is a significant interpretation in the sources that is currently omitted on the page then it needs to be added for balance. To exclude reliably sourced perspectives that are required for balance would violate WP:NPOV, which is one of the three core content policies. So go ahead and add anything missing from the current content balance. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:35, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Maybe you forgot that WP:FALSEBALANCE (part of WP:NPOV), WP:NOR, and WP:SOURCE (part of WP:V) are our core content policies too. You might also want to read WP:SANTA —  Kaalakaa  (talk)  23:37, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 1. You may want to read these explanations from Apaugasma
 * 2. This isn't WP:OR
 * Perhaps you missed this part
 * 3. I am sure that if a historian provides a critical analysis of Aum Shinrikyo, they will be said to be biased or anti-Aum Shinrikyo. This is a common occurrence in every religion. Certainly, we prefer that historian as our source rather than the adherents of that religion, because clearly the latter have a conflict of interest and thus most likely won't be able to cover the subject objectively.
 * 4. Jibreel told him to attack Qurayza for their treachery
 * There doesn't seem to be the phrase “for their treachery” in the hadith. And as far as I know, secular scholars do not believe that Gabriel exists.
 * 5. I've given my explanations regarding them above, I'm not going to repeat it over and over again. —  Kaalakaa  (talk)  01:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * 1. I already gave you secular academic sources. I cannot keep piling on more and more because you keep disregarding each and every one without listening to my explanations.
 * 2. Is R.B. Serjeant a secular academic source? Yes he is, he clearly states that Banu Qurayza had a legitimate treaty with Muslims. Is Watt a secular academic? Yes he is, and he clearly states that Banu Qurayza violated their agreement. I don't know what you don't understand. Are these people not secular sources? How many times will I have to repeat these sources? QcTheCat (talk) 04:41, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The issues with Russ Rodgers as a source have been discussed at length, and Brown, published in the Oxford university press, is absolutely independent. Please don't misrepresent policy on this. Independence = an independent reliable publisher. If there are multiple, conflicting accounts, the page can simply mention both of the conflicting accounts. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:10, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree with @Iskandar323, we can just add the story provided in the sources I gave, and also give the views of scholars who reject the idea. QcTheCat (talk) 04:42, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I have no problem adding "and breaking the treaty" to this sentence in our article:
 * So it becomes:
 * What I disagree with is changing the entire sentence to "Banu Qurayza broke the treaty, blah… blah… blah…" Because this only parrots what early Muslim sources say, which clearly had a conflict of interest, and contradicts the analyses of various reliable secular sources. —  Kaalakaa  (talk)  05:06, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I have given you 9 sources and I could give you tens more, but because you demanded secular sources, so I gave you four. So far you have ignored them and don't seem to have any answer for them, instead you have just been parroting this idea that "reliable secular sources reject the Muslim position."
 * So I must question your sources. Starting with Rodinson,
 * He gives many details about the Battle of the Trench and its aftermath. And it is clear he took from the Muslim sources I quoted you, he narrated practically the same story as Tabari and Ibn Ishaq. But the violation of Banu Qurayza's Treaty is the only point he omits, as you noted. So my question is, What proof is there that the Muslim sources fabricated the violation of the treaty? I don't want vague Statements such as:
 * "The traditional scholars had every reason to add it"
 * Or
 * "Reliable sources say so"
 * According to WP:RSVETTING
 * "No source is always unreliable for every statement, and no source is always reliable for any statement."
 * So if these sources, are reliable in saying that Banu Qurayza did not violate any treaty, and not just an instant pass for anything they say, then we would expect to find proof for why they think that this was a fabrication. And we would expect actual concrete proof, not just justifications for why it might have been done, actual objective proof. I request you to bring some proof for this, perhaps this will help us reach a conclusion. QcTheCat (talk) 15:00, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, I have explained it to you multiple times already, but you either do not want to or cannot understand (seems like an indication of WP:IDHT and WP:TENDENTIOUS). Five of your sources are early Islamic sources, which means they're primary, non-independent sources. WP:PSTS says, "All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors." As for Karen Armstrong, she only majored in English, which is completely irrelevant to this topic. Her book is, at best, equivalent to a novel. Brown is not very independent (you can see why if you read Apaugasma's explanations I quoted above ). Mubarakpuri is blatantly not independent. Watt and Serjeant seem to simply parrot what Islamic sources say, that the Qurayza broke the treaty with Muhammad, while other reliable scholars state that it was an accusation from Muhammad and Islamic sources (and indeed, all early primary sources on this are from Muslims). Several reliable modern secular sources (some I've cited above ) even doubt or outright reject the notion that the Qurayza took part in the treaty, as also mentioned by the primary source you provided (Tabari, vol.8 pg.15), where the Qurayza stated, "There is no treaty between us and Muhammad and no covenant." The Encyclopaedia of Islam by Brill (full citation above ) also says that the Muslim report regarding the meeting of two Jewish tribes' chiefs and the content of the conversation are "open to grave doubt."
 * So you mean that we should take everything that Islamic sources say as fact, such as Muhammad really meeting Gabriel, splitting the moon, ascending to the seventh heaven on Buraq, negotiating the number of prayers a day with God, etc., is that it? And if there are reliable sources that doubt any of them, their views are void if you think your WP:OR trumps their analyses, is that it? —  Kaalakaa  (talk)  09:52, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Watt and Brown are both excellent independent sources. If you wish to dispute Brown at WP:RSN, feel free to do so, but be prepared to be chased out of the house with a broomstick. The personal identities of modern are of no relevance alongside their publication by university presses. A British historian is perfectly qualified to write on British history, assuming they have a reliable publisher. Primary sources are meanwhile not prohibited from use. Tabari, for instance, can be used, just not interpreted. The rule here is simply to say: Tabari says XYZ. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You might want to read this explanation from Apaugasma
 * — Kaalakaa  (talk)  16:49, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm going to trust the Oxford University Press on the matter. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * We're not trying to tell a story here. We're trying to relate what different reliable sources say on the subject. If two sets of reliable sources conflict, we present both presentations. If one set gives a treaty narrative, we explain that narrative as one narrative. And if another set of sources give a narrative that denies the treaty narrative, we explain that as a counter-narrative. If the sources diverge in other ways, such as in the primary sources referenced, that can also be mentioned. Picking and choosing, and slotting in two or three words is not the name of the game. We're not trying to blend different explanations. If there are two different explanations in reliable sources, we provide both explanations. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:34, 24 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @Iskandar323
 * I don't disagree with you, You should provide both explanations from the two sets of sources. But that should be after you can make sure that Rodinson, who uses the narrative provided in Early Muslim sources, had objective proof to omit Banu Qurayza's violation of treaty, a key feature mentioned in all the early Muslim sources. QcTheCat (talk) 12:16, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Anything that is deemed controversial and supported by only one scholar can simply be attributed. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:26, 25 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure, That will do QcTheCat (talk) 04:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I suggest adding the following information through the sources I provided at the beginning of the section on Banu Qurayza (since these events took place before the encounter with Angel Gabriel According to the majority of sources such Sirat Ibn Hisham 3/337, and acknowledged by modern biographies of Muhammad such as The Sealed Nectar by Al-Mubarakpuri). Here are the events with sources:
 * 1. The information on Kab bin Assad Al Qurazi's encounter with Huyayy bin Akhtab first and breaching of the treaty
 * 2. Reports of this to Muhammad, and instructions to four companions
 * 3. Attempt at reconciliation by the four companions, and it's failure
 * Then at the end of any of these points or each, the alternative position can be provided. And here are the sources:
 * 1. Sources for the existence of a legitimate treaty: R.B. Serjeant's The "Sunnah Jāmi'ah," Pacts with the Yaṯẖrib Jews and the "Taḥrīm" of Yaṯẖrib Pg. 9, Jonathan AC Brown's "Muhammad, A very short introduction" Part 1 Pg. 42
 * 2. Sources for Breach of treaty (encounter of Kab al Qurazi and Huyayy bin Akhtab: History of Tabari vol.8 Pg.14, Sirat bin Ishaq part III pg.453, Al Waqidi's Kitab Al Maghazi vol.2 pg.225, Ibn Sad's Kitab Tabaqat al Kabir vol.2 pg.82, Jonathan AC Brown's "Muhammad, A very short introduction" Part 1 Pg. 42, Karen Armstrong's "Muhammad" Ch. 4 "Jihad" Pg. 148, (WM Watt also refers to a breach of agreement without mentioning the encounter of Kab al Qurazi: WM Watt's "Muhammad, Prophet and Statesman" Ch.6 pg.171)
 * 3. A small scale attack by Banu Qurayza themselves: Sahih Muslim Hadith no. 1766, Karen Armstrong's "Muhammad" Ch. 4 "Jihad" Pg. 148, Jonathan AC Brown's "Muhammad A very short introduction" Part 1 Pg. 43
 * 4. Report to Muhammad and attempt at reconciliation: The History of Tabari vol.8 pg.15, Sirat bin Ishaq part III pg.453, Karen Armstrong's "Muhammad" Ch. 4 "Jihad", Pg. 148 (And most of the other sources provided also affirm this event) QcTheCat (talk) 06:23, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * See my reply above  —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  12:22, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I missed this response of yours before. Here's my response:
 * 1. Firstly, I accepted that primary sources are to be interpreted by secondary and tertiary sources. What I was talking about when I said that you were not answering, was my question on why the primary sources aren't being used consistently without any evidence in your sources? Why mention every detail about the Battle from the early sources but just leave out one of the most important parts, the violation of the treaty, without any evidence? I am still waiting for that evidence. And Now for my sources:
 * 2. Jonathan AC Brown absolutely is independent. He has served as the editor in chief of the Oxford Encyclopedia of Islam and Law. Is Oxford University now also some Islamic organisation? Your evidence against Brown was Apaugasma saying that Brown "seems to have written at least sometimes from an Islamic religious perspective". How is that evidence? Brown sometimes includes his opinions on Islamic topics, sure that is his opinion. He makes his opinion and historical facts very clear from each other. That is no reason to not accept him.
 * 3. Serjeant and Watt just parrot Muslim sources? This is the exact problem I faced with your previous responses. If someone uses Muslim sources consistently with evidence, then they automatically are "parroting" them. But if they don't use them, on very specific topics without reason on why they didn't, then they are independent and secular? Serjeant worked as a professor at the university of Edinburgh, Lecturer at Cambridge and more. Watt needs no introduction. Both are independent and very reliable.
 * 4. I never said Mubarakpuri was a secular source. I just used his work just to show that Modern Muslim writers also accept the early position.
 * 5. I never said that everything in Islamic sources should be taken as complete historical fact from a secular standard. I agree that secular sources will obviously not mention miraculous events. The problem is that these secular sources have been quoting the same early sources that I provided you. In fact, they have given the exact same story for the Battle of the Trench. But in all of those sources there is one detail that is constantly repeated and that is a violation of the treaty. If these early sources are reliable enough to be used to detail an entire event, why then do they all suddenly become unreliable when it comes to violation of Banu Qurayza's Treaty? And I am not saying that their (your sources') research is inferior to WP:OR, of course it isn't. What I was saying was that I find sources which I quoted more correct, since they use the early sources just like the set of sources you provided, but don't mysteriously leave out the violation of the treaty without any actual evidence. I requested you to bring this evidence that they have to remove the treaty of Banu Qurayza completely from their works.
 * And now, when reviewing your sources, the sources you provided don't seem to be any better.
 * 1. You said that Jonathan AC Brown was not independent because he was a Sunni Hanbali, however you quoted Bernard Lewis who was much less independent, because he was very significantly influenced by politics. He was an advisor of the Bush administration during the Iraq war, He was a huge supporter of the Iraq war, had many connections to the US Military, despite being a historian he held the view that there was no proof of the Armenian Genocide and was criticised by several academics such as Edward Said.
 * 2. You quoted the encyclopedia of Islam by Brill, volume 5 on pg. 436, and took only one sentence, so here's the context:
 * Both these sources (Al Waqidi and Ibn Ishaq) MAY BE suspected of bias against Qurayza; and it is therefore probable that there was no special agreement between Muhammad and Qurayza. It is virtually certain, however, that Muhammad had a general agreement with the Jews that they were not to support an enemy against him (al-Wāqidi, 176); and something like this was probably implicit in his alliance with the Arab clans of Medina, since the Jewish clans were allied to one or other of the Arab clans.
 * The encyclopedia does not say that Muhammad and Banu Qurayza didn't have any agreement. What is said was that a physical document that Kab tore may not have existed, and it may not have been a formal treaty in the modern sense, but an agreement was certain. And even the belief that a formal treaty didn't exist was based on suspicion of bias, not empirical evidence.
 * 3. And finally you quoted Richard A. Gabriel who in his book says that there was an absence of reliable sources for Jewish treachery, this statement is made following this statement made only a few sentences earlier:
 * Ibn Ishaq makes no mention of the Jews acting against Muhammad, something we might be reasonably certain he would have mentioned had it occurred.
 * So his evidence for "absence of reliable sources" was that sources such as Ibn Ishaq never spoke of it. Does this seem familiar? It should because I myself quoted Ibn Ishaq speaking of treachery before:
 * Huyayy kept on wheedling Ka'b until at last he gave way in giving him a solemn promise that if Quraysh and Ghatafan returned without having killed Muhammad he would enter his fort with him and await his fate. Thus Ka'b broke his promise and cut loose from the bond that was between him and the apostle. (Sirat Ibn Ishaq part III pg.453)
 * the "Evidence" seems a bit broken
 * So I ask again, what is the evidence that Banu Qurayza's violation of treaty was fabricated QcTheCat (talk) 07:40, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And as for Russ Rodgers, his only argument was that Jibreel told Muhammad to attack Banu Qurayza after the retreat of Quraysh and Ghatafan. This means nothing since all the sources make it clear that Muhammad came to know of the treachery, sent his companions to reconcile with them, but the reconciliation didn't work. After this when the war ended, then Jibreel told Muhammad to go and attack Qurayza because of their treachery. What proof is there of the fabrication of violation of the treaty? The whole narrative that the treaty and its violation was fabricated just seems overly forced, and the evidence is next to nothing, and the theory seems to mostly relies on speculation on why it may have happened, without empirical proof QcTheCat (talk) 07:53, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No, true academics do not consider the entire narrative from early Muslim sources (which were actually written hundreds of years after Muhammad's death) as true. Instead, they analyze what is factual and what might be fabrication. For instance, the miracles attributed to Muhammad are often viewed as fabrications or later additions by Muslims because they contradict the Quran, which states that Muhammad had no miracles and avoided performing them when asked by the Quraysh people. History shows many examples of aggressors sought justifications for attacking others, such as the Mukden Incident, which was a false flag operation used by Japan to justify attacking Manchuria. Therefore, it's not surprising that scholars (especially military historians who are arguably more specialized in this field) doubt the Muslim narrative about the Qurayza breaking the treaty, which Muhammad used to justify massacring their men and enslaving and selling their women and children. And scholars who do not follow the religion they are studying, like those studying Aum Shinrikyo, are clearly more independent in their analysis than the followers of Aum Shinrikyo, as the latter have a conflict of interest and believe in the religion's truth, which hinders their ability to analyze it objectively. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  00:20, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Firstly, I already said in my response that secular scholars wouldn't consider miracles. As I said in my response:
 * I agree that secular sources will obviously not mention miraculous events.
 * But the thing is that a violation of the treaty is not a miraculous event. A miracle can be written off by a simple invocation of standard. Secular writers are not compelled to add miracles even if early sources say so because by definition, secular sources will not affirm religious details. But violation of a treaty is not a miracle, there is no logical problem in the narrative that a treaty was broken. And a justification doesn't meet the requirement of empirical evidence. As I stated:
 * And we would expect actual concrete proof, not just justifications for why it might have been done, actual objective proof.
 * I requested empirical evidence for the fabrication of a violation. However, you responded with:
 * Therefore, it's not surprising that scholars (especially military historians who are arguably more specialized in this field) doubt the Muslim narrative about the Qurayza breaking the treaty, which Muhammad used to justify massacring their men and enslaving and selling their women and children.
 * Doubting something and omitting it as a fabrication are two different things. One can doubt that something may have happened without any back up, but omitting the information itself requires proof to back up the claim. And justification, does not count as a proof. QcTheCat (talk) 15:08, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And I ask once again, Is there any empirical evidence that Banu Qurayza's violation of treaty? Justification for why something may have happened or why someone may doubt it is not considered proof. And how are we to now understand Richard A. Gabriel's accusation, now that we can see that the very source he quotes as evidence for a lack of proof, acts instead as one of the primary proofs for the violation of Treaty by Banu Qurayza. QcTheCat (talk) 15:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * correction:
 * Is there any empirical evidence that Banu Qurayza's violation of treaty was a fabrication QcTheCat (talk) 15:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Addendum
 * If we want to engage in original research, there are many red flags in this narration. This is an account from a Muslim several hundred years after Muhammad's death about a conversation between the chief of Banu Nadir, Huyayy ibn Akhtab, who insisted on inciting the chief of Banu Qurayza, Ka'b ibn As'ad, when he came to his fort to turn against Muhammad. The Muslim clearly had a conflict of interest here. How he came to know about the conversation—whether he planted a bug in the flowerpot there or it was just his imagination—only God knows. Besides, the attack didn't happen at all. Even if, despite how unlikely I think it was, the conversation did really happen, why did the Muslims not just punish Ka'b alone? Why did all the adult men of the Qurayza also have to be massacred and the women and children enslaved, with some sold to Najd, where the profits were used to buy horses and weapons for the Muslims? The narrative just sounds like an overly forced justification to me. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  11:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * As for the "red flags", firstly Tabari was a scholar and a historian. Now, just because a source is written at a later time doesn't mean it isn't authentic. For example, Tabari gets his reports from Imams such as Ibn Humayd and Ibn Hanbal who trace it back to the prophet and his companions. This is how we know he provides authentic information. For example, only two pages before page 15, he provides a chain of narration from Ibn Humayd and Muhammad bin Ishaq from Abu Hurayra (a companion of the prophet).
 * He came to know of this conversation between Kab and Huyayy because the companions would have narrated reports of the events that would take place in the life of Mohammad. And we know it happened for sure because Kab never rejected the fact that he deviated from the treaty. The fact is that Tabari is among the earliest sources of information and We have even earlier sources such as Sahih Muslim (840 CE),
 * "The Jews of Banu Nadeer and Banu Quraiza waged war against the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, so he expelled Banu Nadeer but he allowed Banu Quraiza to stay and he granted them favor until they also waged war after that (Before their persecution)."
 * (Muslim Hadith no. 1766) QcTheCat (talk) 17:51, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * A better place to start is with scholars such as Watt and Brown and cite Tabari where they cite Tabari. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Also as for the narration in Tabari, that is also confirmed by modern academic sources, such as Karen Armstrong:
 * Before the arrival of the Meccan army, Huyay ibn Akhtab, chief of Nadir, had tried to persuade Qurayzah either to attack the Muslims from the rear or to smuggle two thousand Nadiris into the oasis to slaughter the women and children in the fortresses. Initially Qurayzah were hesitant, but when they saw the vast Meccan army filling the plain in front of the city as far as the eye could see, their chief agreed to help the confederacy and provide the Quraysh with weapons and supplies.
 * (Karen Armstrong's "Muhammad" ch.4 "Jihad" pg. 148) QcTheCat (talk) 03:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * We don't want to engage in OR. If you have to preface a comment with a disclaimer that you're about to engage in OR, simply refrain from it. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And now, when reviewing your sources, the sources you provided don't seem to be any better.
 * 1. You said that Jonathan AC Brown was not independent because he was a Sunni Hanbali, however you quoted Bernard Lewis who was much less independent, because he was very significantly influenced by politics. He was an advisor of the Bush administration during the Iraq war, He was a huge supporter of the Iraq war, had many connections to the US Military, despite being a historian he held the view that there was no proof of the Armenian Genocide and was criticised by several academics such as Edward Said.
 * 2. You quoted the encyclopedia of Islam by Brill, volume 5 on pg. 436, and took only one sentence, so here's the context:
 * Both these sources (Al Waqidi and Ibn Ishaq) MAY BE suspected of bias against Qurayza; and it is therefore probable that there was no special agreement between Muhammad and Qurayza. It is virtually certain, however, that Muhammad had a general agreement with the Jews that they were not to support an enemy against him (al-Wāqidi, 176); and something like this was probably implicit in his alliance with the Arab clans of Medina, since the Jewish clans were allied to one or other of the Arab clans.
 * The encyclopedia does not say that Muhammad and Banu Qurayza didn't have any agreement. What is said was that a physical document that Kab tore may not have existed, and it may not have been a formal treaty in the modern sense, but an agreement was certain. And even the belief that a formal treaty didn't exist was based on suspicion of bias, not empirical evidence.
 * 3. And finally you quoted Richard A. Gabriel who in his book says that there was an absence of reliable sources for Jewish treachery, this statement is made following this statement made only a few sentences earlier:
 * Ibn Ishaq makes no mention of the Jews acting against Muhammad, something we might be reasonably certain he would have mentioned had it occurred.
 * So his evidence for "absence of reliable sources" was that sources such as Ibn Ishaq never spoke of it. Does this seem familiar? It should because I myself quoted Ibn Ishaq speaking of treachery before:
 * Huyayy kept on wheedling Ka'b until at last he gave way in giving him a solemn promise that if Quraysh and Ghatafan returned without having killed Muhammad he would enter his fort with him and await his fate. Thus Ka'b broke his promise and cut loose from the bond that was between him and the apostle. (Sirat Ibn Ishaq part III pg.453)
 * the "Evidence" seems a bit broken
 * So I ask again, what is the evidence that Banu Qurayza's violation of treaty was fabricated QcTheCat (talk) 07:40, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And as for Russ Rodgers, his only argument was that Jibreel told Muhammad to attack Banu Qurayza after the retreat of Quraysh and Ghatafan. This means nothing since all the sources make it clear that Muhammad came to know of the treachery, sent his companions to reconcile with them, but the reconciliation didn't work. After this when the war ended, then Jibreel told Muhammad to go and attack Qurayza because of their treachery. What proof is there of the fabrication of violation of the treaty? The whole narrative that the treaty and its violation was fabricated just seems overly forced, and the evidence is next to nothing, and the theory seems to mostly relies on speculation on why it may have happened, without empirical proof QcTheCat (talk) 07:53, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * No, true academics do not consider the entire narrative from early Muslim sources (which were actually written hundreds of years after Muhammad's death) as true. Instead, they analyze what is factual and what might be fabrication. For instance, the miracles attributed to Muhammad are often viewed as fabrications or later additions by Muslims because they contradict the Quran, which states that Muhammad had no miracles and avoided performing them when asked by the Quraysh people. History shows many examples of aggressors sought justifications for attacking others, such as the Mukden Incident, which was a false flag operation used by Japan to justify attacking Manchuria. Therefore, it's not surprising that scholars (especially military historians who are arguably more specialized in this field) doubt the Muslim narrative about the Qurayza breaking the treaty, which Muhammad used to justify massacring their men and enslaving and selling their women and children. And scholars who do not follow the religion they are studying, like those studying Aum Shinrikyo, are clearly more independent in their analysis than the followers of Aum Shinrikyo, as the latter have a conflict of interest and believe in the religion's truth, which hinders their ability to analyze it objectively. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  00:20, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Firstly, I already said in my response that secular scholars wouldn't consider miracles. As I said in my response:
 * I agree that secular sources will obviously not mention miraculous events.
 * But the thing is that a violation of the treaty is not a miraculous event. A miracle can be written off by a simple invocation of standard. Secular writers are not compelled to add miracles even if early sources say so because by definition, secular sources will not affirm religious details. But violation of a treaty is not a miracle, there is no logical problem in the narrative that a treaty was broken. And a justification doesn't meet the requirement of empirical evidence. As I stated:
 * And we would expect actual concrete proof, not just justifications for why it might have been done, actual objective proof.
 * I requested empirical evidence for the fabrication of a violation. However, you responded with:
 * Therefore, it's not surprising that scholars (especially military historians who are arguably more specialized in this field) doubt the Muslim narrative about the Qurayza breaking the treaty, which Muhammad used to justify massacring their men and enslaving and selling their women and children.
 * Doubting something and omitting it as a fabrication are two different things. One can doubt that something may have happened without any back up, but omitting the information itself requires proof to back up the claim. And justification, does not count as a proof. QcTheCat (talk) 15:08, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * And I ask once again, Is there any empirical evidence that Banu Qurayza's violation of treaty? Justification for why something may have happened or why someone may doubt it is not considered proof. And how are we to now understand Richard A. Gabriel's accusation, now that we can see that the very source he quotes as evidence for a lack of proof, acts instead as one of the primary proofs for the violation of Treaty by Banu Qurayza. QcTheCat (talk) 15:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * correction:
 * Is there any empirical evidence that Banu Qurayza's violation of treaty was a fabrication QcTheCat (talk) 15:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Addendum
 * If we want to engage in original research, there are many red flags in this narration. This is an account from a Muslim several hundred years after Muhammad's death about a conversation between the chief of Banu Nadir, Huyayy ibn Akhtab, who insisted on inciting the chief of Banu Qurayza, Ka'b ibn As'ad, when he came to his fort to turn against Muhammad. The Muslim clearly had a conflict of interest here. How he came to know about the conversation—whether he planted a bug in the flowerpot there or it was just his imagination—only God knows. Besides, the attack didn't happen at all. Even if, despite how unlikely I think it was, the conversation did really happen, why did the Muslims not just punish Ka'b alone? Why did all the adult men of the Qurayza also have to be massacred and the women and children enslaved, with some sold to Najd, where the profits were used to buy horses and weapons for the Muslims? The narrative just sounds like an overly forced justification to me. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  11:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * As for the "red flags", firstly Tabari was a scholar and a historian. Now, just because a source is written at a later time doesn't mean it isn't authentic. For example, Tabari gets his reports from Imams such as Ibn Humayd and Ibn Hanbal who trace it back to the prophet and his companions. This is how we know he provides authentic information. For example, only two pages before page 15, he provides a chain of narration from Ibn Humayd and Muhammad bin Ishaq from Abu Hurayra (a companion of the prophet).
 * He came to know of this conversation between Kab and Huyayy because the companions would have narrated reports of the events that would take place in the life of Mohammad. And we know it happened for sure because Kab never rejected the fact that he deviated from the treaty. The fact is that Tabari is among the earliest sources of information and We have even earlier sources such as Sahih Muslim (840 CE),
 * "The Jews of Banu Nadeer and Banu Quraiza waged war against the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, so he expelled Banu Nadeer but he allowed Banu Quraiza to stay and he granted them favor until they also waged war after that (Before their persecution)."
 * (Muslim Hadith no. 1766) QcTheCat (talk) 17:51, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * A better place to start is with scholars such as Watt and Brown and cite Tabari where they cite Tabari. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Also as for the narration in Tabari, that is also confirmed by modern academic sources, such as Karen Armstrong:
 * Before the arrival of the Meccan army, Huyay ibn Akhtab, chief of Nadir, had tried to persuade Qurayzah either to attack the Muslims from the rear or to smuggle two thousand Nadiris into the oasis to slaughter the women and children in the fortresses. Initially Qurayzah were hesitant, but when they saw the vast Meccan army filling the plain in front of the city as far as the eye could see, their chief agreed to help the confederacy and provide the Quraysh with weapons and supplies.
 * (Karen Armstrong's "Muhammad" ch.4 "Jihad" pg. 148) QcTheCat (talk) 03:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * We don't want to engage in OR. If you have to preface a comment with a disclaimer that you're about to engage in OR, simply refrain from it. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * If we want to engage in original research, there are many red flags in this narration. This is an account from a Muslim several hundred years after Muhammad's death about a conversation between the chief of Banu Nadir, Huyayy ibn Akhtab, who insisted on inciting the chief of Banu Qurayza, Ka'b ibn As'ad, when he came to his fort to turn against Muhammad. The Muslim clearly had a conflict of interest here. How he came to know about the conversation—whether he planted a bug in the flowerpot there or it was just his imagination—only God knows. Besides, the attack didn't happen at all. Even if, despite how unlikely I think it was, the conversation did really happen, why did the Muslims not just punish Ka'b alone? Why did all the adult men of the Qurayza also have to be massacred and the women and children enslaved, with some sold to Najd, where the profits were used to buy horses and weapons for the Muslims? The narrative just sounds like an overly forced justification to me. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  11:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * As for the "red flags", firstly Tabari was a scholar and a historian. Now, just because a source is written at a later time doesn't mean it isn't authentic. For example, Tabari gets his reports from Imams such as Ibn Humayd and Ibn Hanbal who trace it back to the prophet and his companions. This is how we know he provides authentic information. For example, only two pages before page 15, he provides a chain of narration from Ibn Humayd and Muhammad bin Ishaq from Abu Hurayra (a companion of the prophet).
 * He came to know of this conversation between Kab and Huyayy because the companions would have narrated reports of the events that would take place in the life of Mohammad. And we know it happened for sure because Kab never rejected the fact that he deviated from the treaty. The fact is that Tabari is among the earliest sources of information and We have even earlier sources such as Sahih Muslim (840 CE),
 * "The Jews of Banu Nadeer and Banu Quraiza waged war against the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, so he expelled Banu Nadeer but he allowed Banu Quraiza to stay and he granted them favor until they also waged war after that (Before their persecution)."
 * (Muslim Hadith no. 1766) QcTheCat (talk) 17:51, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
 * A better place to start is with scholars such as Watt and Brown and cite Tabari where they cite Tabari. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Also as for the narration in Tabari, that is also confirmed by modern academic sources, such as Karen Armstrong:
 * Before the arrival of the Meccan army, Huyay ibn Akhtab, chief of Nadir, had tried to persuade Qurayzah either to attack the Muslims from the rear or to smuggle two thousand Nadiris into the oasis to slaughter the women and children in the fortresses. Initially Qurayzah were hesitant, but when they saw the vast Meccan army filling the plain in front of the city as far as the eye could see, their chief agreed to help the confederacy and provide the Quraysh with weapons and supplies.
 * (Karen Armstrong's "Muhammad" ch.4 "Jihad" pg. 148) QcTheCat (talk) 03:48, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * We don't want to engage in OR. If you have to preface a comment with a disclaimer that you're about to engage in OR, simply refrain from it. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * We don't want to engage in OR. If you have to preface a comment with a disclaimer that you're about to engage in OR, simply refrain from it. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Just have to say that current writing "On the exact day the Quraysh forces and their allies withdrew, Muhammad, while bathing at his wife's abode, received a visit from the angel Gabriel, who instructed him to attack the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza." doesn't work in WP-voice. At all. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Your suggestion? —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  16:44, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, if this was an article on a Biblical topic, I would have no objection if something like that came under a heading like "Biblical narrative", because then anything goes. But this is just "Medinan years", implying that the subject is history. The quote sounds to me like something from a WP:RSPSCRIPTURE, so some sort of "according to" seems necessary IMO, if the source is acceptable in context. Apart from the wiki-voice Gabriel thing, it seems WP-unnecessary to me to mention that Muhammad was in the bath. "On the exact day" also sounds weird in my ears, the topic being history. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:57, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Using “is said” or “reportedly” perhaps? The problem is that all historical material on Muhammad all originally came from WP:RSPSCRIPTURE (Quran, Sira, Hadith, etc), which is then covered by secondary sources, which are cited for the statement. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  17:41, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * If you add "“is said” or “reportedly”", my knee-jerk reaction would be . If "according to the Quran" fits, that's fine by me. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:39, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It seems that Sahih al-Bukhari 4122 is one of the primary sources reporting this matter:
 * so how about "according to Sahih al-Bukhari" or perhaps "according to Islamic tradition"? —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  20:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * How about "according to the Sahih al-Bukhari hadith"? And I still don't think we need to mention M. was in the bath. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:33, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yeah, there are a few weird sentences loitering about. Work is needed to effect an encyclopedic tone. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:49, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This is actually exactly the same as stating in wikivoice that “Banu Qurayza broke their treaty with Muhammad ...”
 * Both parrot what early Islamic sources say, though this one is not so self-serving. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  16:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Both parrot what early Islamic sources say, though this one is not so self-serving. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  16:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Banu Qurayza + following section
The sources need better balancing in both these sections. There's an overemphasis on Russ Rodgers, who is a marginal scholar at best, and just a single voice. The second section is almost entirely sourced to Rodgers. That's disastrously undue. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:09, 28 May 2024 (UTC)


 * I was going to add tags, but I've trimmed and edited it a bit instead. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * What, you still want to stick with your misrepresentation of this Bloomsbury article that Rodgers “falls well short of subject-matter expert”, when that article actually says:
 * Rodgers' book, The Generalship of Muhammad, that's cited in our article, is published by the University Press of Florida (WP:OR states that "Books published by university presses" are among "the most reliable sources"). And he is the command historian of the US Army. That book of his is also cited and well-reviewed by multiple reliable sources (not just any websites or blogs). So no matter what you say, Rodgers is a reliable source.  —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  22:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * As you said yourself:
 * WP:OR states that "Books published by university presses" are among "the most reliable sources"
 * Why doesn't the same apply to the secular sources I provided such as Serjeant and Brown? Serjeant worked as a professor at The University of Edinburgh, Lecturer at Cambridge and more. Brown has served as the editor in chief of the Oxford Encyclopedia of Islam and Law. When a source agrees with the position of the early Islamic sources, why would it be considered "parroting" if it is still coming from a University Press which would have edited, reviewed, discussed and only then published the material? And also, do check my response in the section of The Satanic Verses and Banu Qurayza relating to your last response. QcTheCat (talk) 23:39, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * As an addition to my reply above, this is actually similar to the case of "Muhammad was visited by the angel Gabriel." Even though some reliable modern sources might say so, we can't present it in wikivoice just like that because it is an extraordinary, self-serving claim (as the primary sources are all from Muslims), and it might appear as though Wikipedia is endorsing it. Instead, we prefer sources that say, "Muhammad said he was visited by the angel Gabriel." Similarly, in this case, I don't think we should follow sources that simply parrot Islamic sources by saying, "The Banu Qurayza broke the treaty with Muhammad," when there are other sources that state, "Muhammad said/accused/claimed that the Banu Qurayza had taken sides against him", "and broken a treaty." —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  02:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * @QcTheCat: As you note, there is some inconsistency here in the way university press sources are being treated. In one instance, being ignored to discount subject-matter experts; here to promote a decidedly non-export voice. The still more nuanced twist to the discussion is that not all university presses are created equal. There is also the WP:CHOPSY test for helping to determine whether ideas and interpretations fall within the academic mainstream. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:50, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The discussion about Rodgers has been had before, as well you know. There are hundreds of reliable academic works on Muhammad, and Rodgers' addition isn't even close to being in the top echelons. As before, a promotional Bloomsbury bio doesn't change this. There are some scholarly giants in this field. If you want a highly skeptical viewpoint, Patricia Crone is perhaps the most authoritative voice for that. Most of the scholars in the field are life-long tenured professors, not just random blokes retired from the US army who wrote a single book. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:09, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Are you not aware that the term "military historian" does not refer to retired military personnel who then become hobbyist historians, but rather to a specialization within the field of history, similar to how cardiology is a specialization within medicine? How many historical books about Muhammad written by military historians and published by university presses are there to date? There are only two: Rodgers' "Generalship of Muhammad" published by University Press of Florida, and Richard A Gabriel's "Islam's First General" published by University of Oklahoma Press. Furthermore, Rodgers is a command historian of the US Army, and the book is cited and well-reviewed by multiple other reliable sources (not just any websites or blogs). Moreover, WP:OR, one of our core content policies (not just an essay), states that "Books published by university presses" are among "the most reliable sources." Go discuss it on that policy's talk page first if you want to change it.  —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  07:11, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You are now referencing two adjunct (non-tenured) professors, neither of whom are particularly focused subject-matter specialists. Please actually absorb WP:CHOPSY, as noted above. Of the two, Gabriel is nonetheless of some small standing, and is at least featured in academic reviews. More generally, the policy I will simply quote at you with reference to Rodgers is WP:ECREE. One source is not enough for controversial claims, which is the main capacity in which Rodgers is being used. If other RS support Rodgers for a claim then the immediate problem is solved; otherwise, there's a weight issue. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:36, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * "Adjunct professor" in America means an expert whose primary job is not at the university, but who is given the title of professor by the university (Rodgers' main job is as a command historian in the US Army). Your argument is just like saying that a NASA lead scientist is not reliable because he is an adjunct professor at a particular university. WP:CHOPSY is just an essay, not a policy like WP:OR, which states that "books published by university presses" are among "the most reliable sources". Regardless, I haven't found any statements by Rodgers that are ridiculed by these universities. In fact, this publication from Harvard University Press states, "A more measured assessment of Muhammad’s military skills can be found in Rodgers, The Generalship of Muhammad.".  —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  08:22, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Even if we were to accept Russ Rodgers, he only provides what "he considers to be proof" that Banu Qurayza's violation of treaty was a fabrication. And his evidence is that since sources state that Muhammad was visited by Jibreel before he executed a siege against Qurayza, therefore he must have initiated the conflict first. However, this evidence is fallacious, because the very same sources he gets this information from, refute the claim. The sources he himself quote make very clear that both violation of the treaty and its report to Muhammad, and Jibreel's message to Muhammad, both took place. How can this be considered proof when it is simply a piece of information taken out of context? Why accept this information one authentic, while simultaneously disregarding part of the same event? Once again, he doesn't provide any empirical evidence of Banu Qurayza's violation being a fabrication. Of course, secondary and tertiary sources are supposed to "interpret" primary sources. But if the interpretation of the secondary and tertiary sources can be relied upon, we need evidence for their interpretation, empirical evidence not justification for why it happened.''' If such an evidence cannot be found, then how can we rely upon such a claim? QcTheCat (talk) 09:40, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That's just your original research, and you are not a reliable source, so it carries no weight whatsoever. Nevertheless, if you thoroughly read that Rodgers' book, there are many explanations scattered throughout why he considers the three major Jewish tribes of Medina (including the Banu Qurayza) did not actually participate in Muhammad's Covenant of Medina. This is almost in line with Bernard Lewis's deduction that the covenant is "not a treaty in the modern sense, but rather a unilateral proclamation." Some examples:
 * — Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  17:11, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I advocate removing citations to Rodgers. Kaalakaa, you seem to be under the misconception that anything published by a university press should have an automatic presumption of reliability. That isn't the case. University presses have different motivations for publishing, and the peer review process isn't what you apparently think it is. Especially with this book. We have discussed this book multiple times in the past, and each time the consensus seems to be that we shouldn't give it any weight. You seem to be the only holdout. ~Anachronist (talk) 18:56, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Anachronist, but that is just an essay written only by you, and many of its statements are not even supported by any reliable source, which means it is mostly original research. Additionally, your essay contradicts our policy, WP:OR which states that "books published by university presses" are among "the most reliable sources". There is no clear consensus about Rodgers; those explicitly against him appear to be just you and Iskandar323, along with some inexperienced editors who seem to want to censor this article. The viewpoint of military historians, such as Rodgers, is essential for this article, as Muhammad's life after moving to Medina was dominated by battles, and one reason the Battle of Badr article was demoted from featured article status was the absence of sources from military historians . If you like, why don't we bring that essay of yours to WP:RSN to be inspected by other experienced editors? —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  16:14, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I might care what a military historian had to say about military formations, manoeuvres and equipment, but the pertinence of such a voice to biographical details and cultural context is non-existent. This is a biography, so the battle of Badr parallel is not useful. Also, essays are not sources to be evaluated: they are community-created signposts. You are confusing the function of RSN, as well as the OR policy, which only applies to mainspace pages. But regardless, not all university press books are created equal (not all universities are equal, hence WP:CHOPSY), and it would be daft to argue otherwise. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:03, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ... said the person who previously claimed that a military historian is a retired military personnel who became a hobbyist historian  and that adjunct professors are not reliable because they are non-tenure, a statement as ridiculous as saying that a NASA lead scientist is not reliable because they are an adjunct professor at a certain university. Regardless, according to our military history article: "The essential subjects of military history study are the causes of war, the social and cultural foundations, military doctrine on each side, the logistics, leadership, technology, strategy, and tactics used, and how these changed over time." So, it is clearly very relevant, even more so when compared to Karen Armstrong, whom you use as your source , even though she only has a degree in English.
 * Who said that essays are sources to be evaluated? What I'm saying is that essays do not have the same standing as policies and guidelines and do not need to be followed, especially if their content contradicts policy and contains many extraordinary claims about a subject that are not supported by reliable sources.
 * Again, WP:CHOPSY is just an essay and not a policy or guideline. Regardless, the essay states, "Any claim which would be unequivocally ridiculed at those universities cannot establish facts for Wikipedia." Are there any instances that those universities ridiculing Rodgers or his statements? In fact, this publication from Harvard University Press states, "A more measured assessment of Muhammad’s military skills can be found in Rodgers, The Generalship of Muhammad." —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  06:06, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I suggest you focus on concision in your comments if you expect people to respond to you. As Kecia Ali notes, the only thing Rodgers is competent (possibly) to comment on is the subject of military skills. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:52, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Here I quote again what Kecia Ali says about Rodgers' book, "A more measured assessment of Muhammad’s military skills can be found in Rodgers, The Generalship of Muhammad.” As anyone can see, Kecia's review of Rodgers' book is clearly positive, and she even seems to endorse the book, but you somehow twist it to make it seem as if "Kecia notes the only thing Rodgers is competent (possibly) to comment on is the subject of military skills." Also, please explain. You use Karen Armstrong as your source, even though she only majored in English. How is an English degree relevant to Islamic history? —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  04:51, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Now who is misrepresenting? And for what purpose and audience? Karen Armstrong is a celebrated, knighted (OBE) author of comparative religion. In this review article, the author of the Encyclopedia of Islam lays out the serious authors in the field of the reconstructon of Muhammad's life through the critical analysis of early Islamic texts: "A. Sprenger, Julius Wellhausen, Leone Caetani, Henri Lammens, A. J. Wensinck, Frants Buhl, Rudi Paret, W. Montgomery Watt, and Alford Welch are all party to this tradition of scholarship, as are E. Dermenghem, Tor Andrae, Maxime Rodinson, Michael Cook, and, more recently, Karen Armstrong." So she's very much established in the field. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:00, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Where did I misrepresent anything? Karen Armstrong only majored in English; is that true or not? Also, that Encyclopaedia of Islam is not the one that was published by Brill, though. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  00:59, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Kecia Ali is reliable, and yes she was a research associate at Harvard Divinity school. And you quoted her book "The Lives of Muhammad" to say that Rodgers was reliable. So if her work can be used as a proof for Rodgers' reliability, then we must also say that Jonathan AC Brown and Karen Armstrong are also reliable, in fact they would be more reliable. She says in the very same book:
 * In Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Armstrong describes Muhammad’s actions, contextualizing them but without exculpating him. (Pg. 227)
 * She recommends Karen Armstrong in her Book 14 times.
 * She also recommends Brown who she actually includes for his research on Banu Qurayza:
 * '''Brown writes that
 * Muhammad “faced the question of the Banu Qurayza Jews,” who “had betrayed their non- aggression pact with the Muslims.” (Pg. 299)'''
 * And again, praises him for his contribution to her work:
 * Jonathan Brown, Mimi Hanaoka, Ruqayya Khan, Michael Penn, and David Powers generously shared forthcoming work. (Pg. 329)
 * And she recommends Jonathan AC Brown's work over 25 times in this book.
 * And it is also worth noting that Rodgers was not quoted for his stance on Banu Qurayza, yet Brown was. This shows that according to her, Brown's stance on Banu Qurayza is more worthy of reviewing. QcTheCat (talk) 17:19, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The question is that, Since you have repeatedly denied the authenticity of the narrative that Banu Qurayza violated their treaty saying that it just "parrots Muslim sources". So now, when we see that your own source, Kecia Ali mentions Brown's analysis of Banu Qurayza, as well as Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall's explanation which describes the situation mentioning Banu Qurayza as "treacherous" and "conscious of their guilt"
 * Is she, a scholar of Islam at Harvard Divinity School, is she also parroting Muslim sources? Is Harvard University also unreliable, you have already denied Brown's work published by Oxford University.
 * What kind of "reliable" evidence is needed if even the most world-renowned Universities can be written off if they are in agreement with the Muslim sources? QcTheCat (talk) 14:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That's the Q this all begs. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:33, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You are again confusing/misrepresenting things. What Kecia did in regard to Brown and Pickthall is the same as what she did in regard to Karen Armstrong, which is simply quoting and discussing their statements among many other authors. Here, I quote Kecia Ali on Pickthall, which you omitted:
 * The phrase "deflecting blame" from Kecia clearly indicates that she does not endorse the statement, just as when Kecia pointed out that Karen Armstrong's claim about what Tabari said was actually contrary to what Tabari really stated, . —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  07:30, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Since, the discussion on Karen Armstrong and Aisha was put as "off-topic", I will avoid mentioning it here, but looking at your new response.
 * So your claim is that Kecia Ali only mentions these texts and their narrative but doesn't actually agree with them. In that case, why would she put Banu Qurayza's treachery in the very preface of chapter 3?
 * The Meccans eventually lifted their siege, and the Banu Qurayza were punished for their treachery : an arbiter they chose ordered the women and children enslaved and the men executed.
 * ("The Lives of Muhammad" Ch. 3 Pg. 79)
 * Besides, There are a number of problems with this claim. One of them being that, Kecia Ali never says that. Kecia Ali never disagrees with the narrative. In fact, she never mentions the narrative that the report of Qurayza's violation was a fabrication. She repeatedly says that many non-muslims find the execution problematic or "incomprehensible". She never says that the violation was fabricated. If that was actually her view, then she would have mentioned a source that holds that view, but she never does. Holding a view and then not only providing sources which oppose it, but also neither refuting them nor even denying them clearly seems pretty counter-productive, does it not?
 * Secondly, when Kecia Ali says that Pickthall was "deflecting the blame", she doesn't mean that the event didn't happen. She explains what she means earlier in the same page:
 * '''In fact, recent biographies by non-Muslims take a range of approaches to the conflict with the Banu Qurayza, from deflecting blame to signaling it as a regrettable but necessary demonstration of political will
 * ("The Lives of Muhammad" Ch. 6 Pg. 227)'''
 * Firstly, mentioning the situation as Banu Qurayza and Muslims "in conflict" already shows that she does affirm that treachery of Qurayza did take place. And "Deflecting blame" here doesn't mean invoking a fabrication, it means defending the event, not by focusing on the execution, but instead focusing on the context. As in, changing the conversation from, "was the execution problematic" to "whether it was justified" QcTheCat (talk) 03:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * In her title of that chapter, she actually points to the one true controversy in the story, which is the choice of the arbiter. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:22, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The part you refer to as the "preface" of a chapter is merely a narrative from the Muslim perspective that Kecia condensed. Look at chapter 6, where she mentions after the "preface": "This story has long been a staple of Muslim accounts of Muhammad’s life." That Kecia Ali's book, titled The Lives of Muhammad (note that she uses the plural "lives," not the singular "life"), is not a book about Muhammad but a book discussing the writings of various authors about Muhammad. Mentioning someone does not mean she agrees with or recommends that person's work, just as when she pointed out that what Karen Armstrong claimed was said by Tabari was actually contrary to what Tabari really stated . "Deflecting the blame" means "to attack or blame another person rather than accepting criticism or blame for your own actions." If Kecia considered the massacre justified, she would not describe Pickthall's narrative, which put the blame on Banu Qurayza for breaking a treaty, as deflecting the blame.  —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  08:31, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The preface never says that it is the "Muslim Perspective", she puts the event plainly as it is. If she actually did not believe that treachery had taken place, she would have made it clear that she personally disagreed with the narrative. And as I mentioned before, Why would she never mention a single source that claims that the treachery was fabricated?
 * In chapter 6, she adds the text:
 * "This story has been a staple of Muslim accounts of Muhammad's life"
 * This is because she mentions a miraculous story In the preface of chapter 6. In the preface of chapter 3, she doesn't mention any miracle. If she added text clarifying that she mentioned a story from Muslim sources in chapter 6, why would she not do the same in chapter 3? Perhaps because they are two very different situations.
 * And the point of noting that she mentions Brown's and Pickthall's works is to show that she believes them to be valid and credible. As I said, if she disagreed, she would put it plainly, but she never does. In the case of Armstrong, she made it clear that she found there to be a difference between Tabari and Armstrong's works. Why wouldn't she do the same or something similar with Brown and Pickthall? Perhaps because they are very different situations.
 * And the term "deflecting blame" is made clear. Kecia Ali says that Pickthall justified the execution, by explaining the context of the treachery. Kecia Ali never disagrees with this point of treachery
 * And whether the execution was justified or not is not the point. The point is that Banu Qurayza had violated their treaty. Whether the execution was justified is a moral question, whether the treaty was violated is an objective historic question. QcTheCat (talk) 03:44, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, it is to be noted that Tariq Ramadan, in his book:
 * "In the Footsteps of the Prophet", published by Oxford University Press and used in this very article already also mentions Banu Qurayza's treachery in page 140:
 * The Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza mainly lived in that area; they had signed an assistance agreement with Muhammad, but they might constitute the weak point in Medina's unity. Huyayy, the chief of the Banu Nadir clan, insisted on going to the Banu Qurayza fortress to speak to their chief, Kab ibn Asad, and try to convince him to break his alliance with Muhammad. Kab ibn Asad initially refused to receive Huyayy, but the latter insisted so strongly that the Banu Qurayza chief let himself be convinced, first to listen to him, then to betray the covenant. This defection meant that the whole strategy of the Medina people collapsed, since the Banu Qurayza's alliance with the enemy opened a breach from inside and gave the enemy access to the city, which meant certain defeat and no less certain extermination for the Muslims.
 * ("In the Footsteps of the Prophet" Ch.11 Pg.140) QcTheCat (talk) 03:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * And in addition to all the previous sources, Another source for Banu Qurayza's treachery is: "Oxford Dictionary of Islam"
 * Written by Scholar of Islamic studies, John Eposito, and published by the Oxford University press. On page 36 Eposito writes about Qurayza:
 * Banu Qurayza: Prosperous Jewish tribe of Medina. Initially agreed to support Muhammad; later negotiated with the Quraysh against the Muslims during the siege of Medina in 627.
 * ("The Oxford Dictionary of Islam" pg.36) QcTheCat (talk) 07:17, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You still seem to fail to understand that Kecia Ali's book, The Lives of Muhammad, is not about her discussing Muhammad's life but about her discussing the works of various authors regarding Muhammad, including Robert Spencer. That's why she often uses quotation marks when discussing their statements; it doesn't mean she supports their claims. The "prefaces" in the chapters of her book are merely "Muslim accounts of Muhammad’s life," as she wrote on page 200, and they are not her analysis of Muhammad's life. "Deflecting blame" clearly has a negative connotation in English. If Kecia believed that the massacre was a right judgement, she would not use the phrase "deflecting blame" for what Pickthall did, which was to attribute Muhammad's massacre of the Banu Qurayza men and his enslavement and selling of their women and children to the "treachery" of the Banu Qurayza. Regarding "Banu Qurayza:... negotiated with the Quraysh against the Muslims during the siege of Medina in 627," this bit is already explained in considerable detail in the article: "Islamic sources recount that during the preceding Meccan siege, the Quraysh leader Abu Sufyan incited the Quraysh to attack the Muslims from their compound, but the Quraysh demanded the Quraysh to provide 70 hostages from among themselves to ascertain their commitment to their plans, as proposed by Muhammad's secret agent Nu'aym ibn Mas'ud. Abu Sufyan refused their requirement." —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  13:03, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * So if Kecia Ali's work is a discussion of different sources on Muhammad's life, and the sources she mentions aren't reliable just because she mentions them, then why would Russ Rodgers be reliable when she mentions him? If Rodgers is reliable because she refers to his work as a more measured assessment than that of Afazlur Rahman. Then Brown would be much more reliable since she directly recommends readers to see his work on topics including Aisha (pg. 285 and 269), Khadija (pg.278) and more.
 * And what about the other sources I mentioned, such as Ramadan? She praises Tariq Ramadan, noting him as a doctorate holder and an Oxford professor on pg. 222 which is even more important when we note that Kecia Ali mentions his work on Banu Qurayza:
 * Ramadan interweaves accounts of key events, such as the Battle of the Trench and the retaliation against the Banu Qurayza, with the lessons to be learned from them
 * ("The Lives of Muhammad" Ch.6 Pg.224)
 * (And Mentioning Banu Qurayza's punishment as a "retaliation" once again confirms she affirms a violation of treaty.)
 * And as I already said before, the preface is not the Muslim perspective and she never says it is. Just because she mentions a miraculous story in the preface of chapter 6 and makes a clarification for that specific preface, does not mean every preface in the entire book is the Muslim perspective. This seems like misrepresentation of her work on your part.
 * And again, the point is not whether Banu Qurayza's punishment was too harsh. That is a moral question, the point I made was that Banu Qurayza committed treachery and had violated their treaty, the execution is a completely different topic.
 * And lastly, the article does not say what the "Oxford dictionary of Islam" says. Firstly, the Oxford Dictionary of Islam is not an Islamic source. And the article denies that Banu Qurayza accepted any negotiation, which the dictionary very clearly says. The dictionary makes it clear, they "negotiated with the Quraysh against the Muslims". If they just denied the offer, that would not be negotiations against the Muslims. The event mentioned in the article took place at the very end of the siege. As I showed from all the sources I provided, Banu Qurayza had made negotiations much before. The article makes no mention of these negotiations and instead denies them. QcTheCat (talk) 07:42, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * No, Russ Rodgers is reliable not only because his work received a good review from Kecia Ali. But also because his work is published by the University Press of Florida, he is the command historian of the US Army (comparable perhaps to a lead scientist at NASA), an adjunct professor of history, and his work is also cited and reviewed positively by other reliable sources, which are additional factors. As for the issue of Muslim authors, as I have said, this is more about independence. Unlike secondary sources like Kecia Ali, we have the WP:SOURCE policy that says "Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Like authors from other religions, when they write about their own religion, they sometimes or often cannot discuss the subject objectively. A writer who adheres to Aum Shinrikyo will tend to exaggerate the positive aspects and defend the negative aspects of their religion and its prophet, as will followers of other religions. Therefore, as @Apaugasma said: Regarding the issue of your proposal to write "Banu Qurayza broke a treaty with Muhammad," I have already mentioned that this is similar to "Prophet Muhammad received revelations from the angel Gabriel." Instead of stating it like that, when there are other sources saying "Muhammad said he received revelations from the angel Gabriel," we should follow the latter as per NPOV. Similarly, in this case, because "Banu Qurayza broke a treaty" is a claim made by Muhammad and Muslim sources, and we don't know for sure its veracity (several reliable secondary sources question it), we should instead write "Muhammad or Islamic sources say that Banu Qurayza broke the treaty." Feel free to bring this to WP:NPOVN if you still insist.  —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  01:47, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That's regarding the same question I asked before, if Rodgers is reliable since his work was published by the University press of Florida, then why aren't Brown, Serjeant, Watt, Ramadan or any of the others authentic when their works were also published by University presses?
 * And a Muslim source is not automatically an unreliable one for Islam, that would go against WP:NPOV, and if Muslims were an unreliable source for Islam, then why does this very article cite several Muslim sources including ones I mentioned such as Brown and Ramadan on several occasions? And on the topic of the sources cited in this article, Karen Armstrong, who you have been arguing against, is also cited in this very article already, her very same book that I quoted is "citation 194". And, If the problem with sources which adhere to Islam is that they may:
 * "exaggerate the positive aspects and defend the negative aspects of their religion and its prophet" (as you explained)
 * Then religious identity wouldn't be a problem in this case because, the Muslim sources I have provided such as Ramadan and Brown have had their works published by University Presses which are supposed to be "among the most reliable sources". It is certain that multiple professors and editors from these universities that don't adhere to Islam would have viewed, assessed and eventually affirmed their works before they were published.
 * The difference between saying that "Prophet Muhammad received revelation from Gabriel" and "Banu Qurayza violated their treaty" is that the former is a statement regarding one's religious belief, and the latter is a history-based statement that is affirmed by several secular sources which have been quoted in scholarly works and Wikipedia several times. Whether or not Banu Qurayza violated their treaty is not a religious question. Watt, Serjeant, Armstrong, Eposito and the others I mentioned are not Muslims, yet they affirm that a treaty was violated, simply because the majority of evidence suggests it.
 * And finally, from what I see, it seems that a large number of secular sources seem to suggest a violation of treaty. I have no problem with the narrative of this event being a fabrication being included as an alternative. But the narrative of an actual violation of treaty could not be mentioned in the article following "according to Muslim sources", because that isn't the case; as we saw with my citation of sources that are Non-Muslim, and sources that were published by University presses. QcTheCat (talk) 14:19, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think I have provided a sufficient number of sources to prove that Banu Qurayza's treachery and the interaction between Huyayy and Kab is a very major and the primary narrative, surely qualified for this Wikipedia page. So I will once reiterate my sources:
 * Primary:
 * 1. Tareekh At-Tabari (History of Tabari) vol. 8 Pg.14
 * 2. Sirat bin Ishaq part III pg. 453
 * 3. Al Waqidi's Kitab Al Maghazi vol.2 pg.225
 * 4. Ibn Sad's Kitab Tabaqat al Kabir vol.2 pg.82
 * 5. Sahih Muslim 1766
 * Secondary/Tertiary and secular:
 * 1. Jonathan AC Brown's "Muhammad, A very short introduction" Part 1 Pg. 42
 * 2. Karen Armstrong's "Muhammad" Ch. 4 "Jihad", Pg. 148
 * 3. WM Watts’s "Muhammad, Prophet and Statesman" Ch.6 pg.171
 * 4. Tariq Ramadan’s “In the Footsteps of the Prophet” Ch.11 Pg.140
 * 5. John Eposito’s “The Oxford Dictionary of Islam” Pg.36
 * 6. R.B. Serjeant's The "Sunnah Jāmi'ah," Pacts with the Yaṯẖrib Jews, and the "Taḥrīm" of Yaṯẖrib Pg. 9
 * And here are two more oriental sources:
 * 1. In the meantime spies brought word to Mahomet that a Jewish tribe, the Beni Koraida (Qurayza), who had a strong castle near the city, and had made a covenant of peace with him, were in secret league with the enemy.
 * (Washington Irving’s "Mahomet and his Successors" Ch.23 Pg.149)
 * Meanwhile, Abu Sofian succeeded in detaching the Jewish tribe of Coreitza (Qurayza) from their allegiance to Mahomet. Huwey (Huyayy), the Jewish chief, was sent to their fortress, and was at first refused admittance. But, persevering in his solicitations, dwelling upon the ill-concealed enmity of Mahomet towards the Jews, and representing the overwhelming numbers of the confederate army as "a surging sea," he at last persuaded Káb, their chief, to relent. It was agreed that the Coreitza would assist the Coreish (Quraysh).
 * (William Muir’s “The Life of Mahomet and the History of Islam” Ch.17 Pg.259)
 * And one more secular source for the authenticity of Qurayza's treaty:
 * The talks resulted in a renowned document, the “Constitution of Medina,” the surviving text of which scholars widely view as authentic.
 * (Muhammad, The Prophet of Peace among the Clash of Empires Ch.4 Pg.52)
 * In total, 14 sources right here QcTheCat (talk) 09:24, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * "This story has been a staple of Muslim accounts of Muhammad's life"
 * This is because she mentions a miraculous story In the preface of chapter 6. In the preface of chapter 3, she doesn't mention any miracle. If she added text clarifying that she mentioned a story from Muslim sources in chapter 6, why would she not do the same in chapter 3? Perhaps because they are two very different situations.
 * And the point of noting that she mentions Brown's and Pickthall's works is to show that she believes them to be valid and credible. As I said, if she disagreed, she would put it plainly, but she never does. In the case of Armstrong, she made it clear that she found there to be a difference between Tabari and Armstrong's works. Why wouldn't she do the same or something similar with Brown and Pickthall? Perhaps because they are very different situations.
 * And the term "deflecting blame" is made clear. Kecia Ali says that Pickthall justified the execution, by explaining the context of the treachery. Kecia Ali never disagrees with this point of treachery
 * And whether the execution was justified or not is not the point. The point is that Banu Qurayza had violated their treaty. Whether the execution was justified is a moral question, whether the treaty was violated is an objective historic question. QcTheCat (talk) 03:44, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, it is to be noted that Tariq Ramadan, in his book:
 * "In the Footsteps of the Prophet", published by Oxford University Press and used in this very article already also mentions Banu Qurayza's treachery in page 140:
 * The Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza mainly lived in that area; they had signed an assistance agreement with Muhammad, but they might constitute the weak point in Medina's unity. Huyayy, the chief of the Banu Nadir clan, insisted on going to the Banu Qurayza fortress to speak to their chief, Kab ibn Asad, and try to convince him to break his alliance with Muhammad. Kab ibn Asad initially refused to receive Huyayy, but the latter insisted so strongly that the Banu Qurayza chief let himself be convinced, first to listen to him, then to betray the covenant. This defection meant that the whole strategy of the Medina people collapsed, since the Banu Qurayza's alliance with the enemy opened a breach from inside and gave the enemy access to the city, which meant certain defeat and no less certain extermination for the Muslims.
 * ("In the Footsteps of the Prophet" Ch.11 Pg.140) QcTheCat (talk) 03:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * And in addition to all the previous sources, Another source for Banu Qurayza's treachery is: "Oxford Dictionary of Islam"
 * Written by Scholar of Islamic studies, John Eposito, and published by the Oxford University press. On page 36 Eposito writes about Qurayza:
 * Banu Qurayza: Prosperous Jewish tribe of Medina. Initially agreed to support Muhammad; later negotiated with the Quraysh against the Muslims during the siege of Medina in 627.
 * ("The Oxford Dictionary of Islam" pg.36) QcTheCat (talk) 07:17, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You still seem to fail to understand that Kecia Ali's book, The Lives of Muhammad, is not about her discussing Muhammad's life but about her discussing the works of various authors regarding Muhammad, including Robert Spencer. That's why she often uses quotation marks when discussing their statements; it doesn't mean she supports their claims. The "prefaces" in the chapters of her book are merely "Muslim accounts of Muhammad’s life," as she wrote on page 200, and they are not her analysis of Muhammad's life. "Deflecting blame" clearly has a negative connotation in English. If Kecia believed that the massacre was a right judgement, she would not use the phrase "deflecting blame" for what Pickthall did, which was to attribute Muhammad's massacre of the Banu Qurayza men and his enslavement and selling of their women and children to the "treachery" of the Banu Qurayza. Regarding "Banu Qurayza:... negotiated with the Quraysh against the Muslims during the siege of Medina in 627," this bit is already explained in considerable detail in the article: "Islamic sources recount that during the preceding Meccan siege, the Quraysh leader Abu Sufyan incited the Quraysh to attack the Muslims from their compound, but the Quraysh demanded the Quraysh to provide 70 hostages from among themselves to ascertain their commitment to their plans, as proposed by Muhammad's secret agent Nu'aym ibn Mas'ud. Abu Sufyan refused their requirement." —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  13:03, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * So if Kecia Ali's work is a discussion of different sources on Muhammad's life, and the sources she mentions aren't reliable just because she mentions them, then why would Russ Rodgers be reliable when she mentions him? If Rodgers is reliable because she refers to his work as a more measured assessment than that of Afazlur Rahman. Then Brown would be much more reliable since she directly recommends readers to see his work on topics including Aisha (pg. 285 and 269), Khadija (pg.278) and more.
 * And what about the other sources I mentioned, such as Ramadan? She praises Tariq Ramadan, noting him as a doctorate holder and an Oxford professor on pg. 222 which is even more important when we note that Kecia Ali mentions his work on Banu Qurayza:
 * Ramadan interweaves accounts of key events, such as the Battle of the Trench and the retaliation against the Banu Qurayza, with the lessons to be learned from them
 * ("The Lives of Muhammad" Ch.6 Pg.224)
 * (And Mentioning Banu Qurayza's punishment as a "retaliation" once again confirms she affirms a violation of treaty.)
 * And as I already said before, the preface is not the Muslim perspective and she never says it is. Just because she mentions a miraculous story in the preface of chapter 6 and makes a clarification for that specific preface, does not mean every preface in the entire book is the Muslim perspective. This seems like misrepresentation of her work on your part.
 * And again, the point is not whether Banu Qurayza's punishment was too harsh. That is a moral question, the point I made was that Banu Qurayza committed treachery and had violated their treaty, the execution is a completely different topic.
 * And lastly, the article does not say what the "Oxford dictionary of Islam" says. Firstly, the Oxford Dictionary of Islam is not an Islamic source. And the article denies that Banu Qurayza accepted any negotiation, which the dictionary very clearly says. The dictionary makes it clear, they "negotiated with the Quraysh against the Muslims". If they just denied the offer, that would not be negotiations against the Muslims. The event mentioned in the article took place at the very end of the siege. As I showed from all the sources I provided, Banu Qurayza had made negotiations much before. The article makes no mention of these negotiations and instead denies them. QcTheCat (talk) 07:42, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * No, Russ Rodgers is reliable not only because his work received a good review from Kecia Ali. But also because his work is published by the University Press of Florida, he is the command historian of the US Army (comparable perhaps to a lead scientist at NASA), an adjunct professor of history, and his work is also cited and reviewed positively by other reliable sources, which are additional factors. As for the issue of Muslim authors, as I have said, this is more about independence. Unlike secondary sources like Kecia Ali, we have the WP:SOURCE policy that says "Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Like authors from other religions, when they write about their own religion, they sometimes or often cannot discuss the subject objectively. A writer who adheres to Aum Shinrikyo will tend to exaggerate the positive aspects and defend the negative aspects of their religion and its prophet, as will followers of other religions. Therefore, as @Apaugasma said: Regarding the issue of your proposal to write "Banu Qurayza broke a treaty with Muhammad," I have already mentioned that this is similar to "Prophet Muhammad received revelations from the angel Gabriel." Instead of stating it like that, when there are other sources saying "Muhammad said he received revelations from the angel Gabriel," we should follow the latter as per NPOV. Similarly, in this case, because "Banu Qurayza broke a treaty" is a claim made by Muhammad and Muslim sources, and we don't know for sure its veracity (several reliable secondary sources question it), we should instead write "Muhammad or Islamic sources say that Banu Qurayza broke the treaty." Feel free to bring this to WP:NPOVN if you still insist.  —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  01:47, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That's regarding the same question I asked before, if Rodgers is reliable since his work was published by the University press of Florida, then why aren't Brown, Serjeant, Watt, Ramadan or any of the others authentic when their works were also published by University presses?
 * And a Muslim source is not automatically an unreliable one for Islam, that would go against WP:NPOV, and if Muslims were an unreliable source for Islam, then why does this very article cite several Muslim sources including ones I mentioned such as Brown and Ramadan on several occasions? And on the topic of the sources cited in this article, Karen Armstrong, who you have been arguing against, is also cited in this very article already, her very same book that I quoted is "citation 194". And, If the problem with sources which adhere to Islam is that they may:
 * "exaggerate the positive aspects and defend the negative aspects of their religion and its prophet" (as you explained)
 * Then religious identity wouldn't be a problem in this case because, the Muslim sources I have provided such as Ramadan and Brown have had their works published by University Presses which are supposed to be "among the most reliable sources". It is certain that multiple professors and editors from these universities that don't adhere to Islam would have viewed, assessed and eventually affirmed their works before they were published.
 * The difference between saying that "Prophet Muhammad received revelation from Gabriel" and "Banu Qurayza violated their treaty" is that the former is a statement regarding one's religious belief, and the latter is a history-based statement that is affirmed by several secular sources which have been quoted in scholarly works and Wikipedia several times. Whether or not Banu Qurayza violated their treaty is not a religious question. Watt, Serjeant, Armstrong, Eposito and the others I mentioned are not Muslims, yet they affirm that a treaty was violated, simply because the majority of evidence suggests it.
 * And finally, from what I see, it seems that a large number of secular sources seem to suggest a violation of treaty. I have no problem with the narrative of this event being a fabrication being included as an alternative. But the narrative of an actual violation of treaty could not be mentioned in the article following "according to Muslim sources", because that isn't the case; as we saw with my citation of sources that are Non-Muslim, and sources that were published by University presses. QcTheCat (talk) 14:19, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think I have provided a sufficient number of sources to prove that Banu Qurayza's treachery and the interaction between Huyayy and Kab is a very major and the primary narrative, surely qualified for this Wikipedia page. So I will once reiterate my sources:
 * Primary:
 * 1. Tareekh At-Tabari (History of Tabari) vol. 8 Pg.14
 * 2. Sirat bin Ishaq part III pg. 453
 * 3. Al Waqidi's Kitab Al Maghazi vol.2 pg.225
 * 4. Ibn Sad's Kitab Tabaqat al Kabir vol.2 pg.82
 * 5. Sahih Muslim 1766
 * Secondary/Tertiary and secular:
 * 1. Jonathan AC Brown's "Muhammad, A very short introduction" Part 1 Pg. 42
 * 2. Karen Armstrong's "Muhammad" Ch. 4 "Jihad", Pg. 148
 * 3. WM Watts’s "Muhammad, Prophet and Statesman" Ch.6 pg.171
 * 4. Tariq Ramadan’s “In the Footsteps of the Prophet” Ch.11 Pg.140
 * 5. John Eposito’s “The Oxford Dictionary of Islam” Pg.36
 * 6. R.B. Serjeant's The "Sunnah Jāmi'ah," Pacts with the Yaṯẖrib Jews, and the "Taḥrīm" of Yaṯẖrib Pg. 9
 * And here are two more oriental sources:
 * 1. In the meantime spies brought word to Mahomet that a Jewish tribe, the Beni Koraida (Qurayza), who had a strong castle near the city, and had made a covenant of peace with him, were in secret league with the enemy.
 * (Washington Irving’s "Mahomet and his Successors" Ch.23 Pg.149)
 * Meanwhile, Abu Sofian succeeded in detaching the Jewish tribe of Coreitza (Qurayza) from their allegiance to Mahomet. Huwey (Huyayy), the Jewish chief, was sent to their fortress, and was at first refused admittance. But, persevering in his solicitations, dwelling upon the ill-concealed enmity of Mahomet towards the Jews, and representing the overwhelming numbers of the confederate army as "a surging sea," he at last persuaded Káb, their chief, to relent. It was agreed that the Coreitza would assist the Coreish (Quraysh).
 * (William Muir’s “The Life of Mahomet and the History of Islam” Ch.17 Pg.259)
 * And one more secular source for the authenticity of Qurayza's treaty:
 * The talks resulted in a renowned document, the “Constitution of Medina,” the surviving text of which scholars widely view as authentic.
 * (Muhammad, The Prophet of Peace among the Clash of Empires Ch.4 Pg.52)
 * In total, 14 sources right here QcTheCat (talk) 09:24, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Primary:
 * 1. Tareekh At-Tabari (History of Tabari) vol. 8 Pg.14
 * 2. Sirat bin Ishaq part III pg. 453
 * 3. Al Waqidi's Kitab Al Maghazi vol.2 pg.225
 * 4. Ibn Sad's Kitab Tabaqat al Kabir vol.2 pg.82
 * 5. Sahih Muslim 1766
 * Secondary/Tertiary and secular:
 * 1. Jonathan AC Brown's "Muhammad, A very short introduction" Part 1 Pg. 42
 * 2. Karen Armstrong's "Muhammad" Ch. 4 "Jihad", Pg. 148
 * 3. WM Watts’s "Muhammad, Prophet and Statesman" Ch.6 pg.171
 * 4. Tariq Ramadan’s “In the Footsteps of the Prophet” Ch.11 Pg.140
 * 5. John Eposito’s “The Oxford Dictionary of Islam” Pg.36
 * 6. R.B. Serjeant's The "Sunnah Jāmi'ah," Pacts with the Yaṯẖrib Jews, and the "Taḥrīm" of Yaṯẖrib Pg. 9
 * And here are two more oriental sources:
 * 1. In the meantime spies brought word to Mahomet that a Jewish tribe, the Beni Koraida (Qurayza), who had a strong castle near the city, and had made a covenant of peace with him, were in secret league with the enemy.
 * (Washington Irving’s "Mahomet and his Successors" Ch.23 Pg.149)
 * Meanwhile, Abu Sofian succeeded in detaching the Jewish tribe of Coreitza (Qurayza) from their allegiance to Mahomet. Huwey (Huyayy), the Jewish chief, was sent to their fortress, and was at first refused admittance. But, persevering in his solicitations, dwelling upon the ill-concealed enmity of Mahomet towards the Jews, and representing the overwhelming numbers of the confederate army as "a surging sea," he at last persuaded Káb, their chief, to relent. It was agreed that the Coreitza would assist the Coreish (Quraysh).
 * (William Muir’s “The Life of Mahomet and the History of Islam” Ch.17 Pg.259)
 * And one more secular source for the authenticity of Qurayza's treaty:
 * The talks resulted in a renowned document, the “Constitution of Medina,” the surviving text of which scholars widely view as authentic.
 * (Muhammad, The Prophet of Peace among the Clash of Empires Ch.4 Pg.52)
 * In total, 14 sources right here QcTheCat (talk) 09:24, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile, Abu Sofian succeeded in detaching the Jewish tribe of Coreitza (Qurayza) from their allegiance to Mahomet. Huwey (Huyayy), the Jewish chief, was sent to their fortress, and was at first refused admittance. But, persevering in his solicitations, dwelling upon the ill-concealed enmity of Mahomet towards the Jews, and representing the overwhelming numbers of the confederate army as "a surging sea," he at last persuaded Káb, their chief, to relent. It was agreed that the Coreitza would assist the Coreish (Quraysh).
 * (William Muir’s “The Life of Mahomet and the History of Islam” Ch.17 Pg.259)
 * And one more secular source for the authenticity of Qurayza's treaty:
 * The talks resulted in a renowned document, the “Constitution of Medina,” the surviving text of which scholars widely view as authentic.
 * (Muhammad, The Prophet of Peace among the Clash of Empires Ch.4 Pg.52)
 * In total, 14 sources right here QcTheCat (talk) 09:24, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The talks resulted in a renowned document, the “Constitution of Medina,” the surviving text of which scholars widely view as authentic.
 * (Muhammad, The Prophet of Peace among the Clash of Empires Ch.4 Pg.52)
 * In total, 14 sources right here QcTheCat (talk) 09:24, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
 * In total, 14 sources right here QcTheCat (talk) 09:24, 17 June 2024 (UTC)


 * You seem to confuse mentioning with recommending. On around pages 189–190, Kecia Ali points out that Karen Armstrong references the primary source, Tabari, for a particular statement, but that statement does not align with what Tabari actually said.
 * Kecia Ali then states on page 190:
 * — Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  01:57, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Firstly, Armstrong only quotes Tabari for one narration here:
 * Tabari says that she was so young that she stayed in her parents' home and the marriage was consummated there later when she had reached puberty.
 * (Muhammad, A Biography of a Prophet Ch. 7 Pg. 157)
 * She only uses Tabari for mentioning that Aisha's marriage was consummated at 9. And Tabari does say that:
 * '''The Messenger of God married me when I was seven; my marriage was consummated when I was nine;
 * (The History of Tabari Vol. 7 Pg. 7)
 * As for the word "puberty" Armstrong is doing exactly what is stated in WP:SECONDARY. It states that:
 * A secondary source contains analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources.
 * Even though Tabari may not have explicitly mentioned "puberty", Armstrong's analysis concludes that she would have reached puberty by the time of her consummation, and that is the whole point of a secondary source. And it also is reasonable, why else would Muhammad wait 3 years to consummate the marriage? Logically he would have been waiting for her to hit puberty which aligns with Arab tradition and Islamic law.
 * Also, Kecia Ali never says that Armstrong misrepresented Tabari's work. She simply states that Tabari's information is different from that of Armstrong. QcTheCat (talk) 05:53, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Karen Armstrong clearly attributes her statement to Tabari:
 * That's why Kecia Ali notes:
 * And Karen also says:
 * That's why Kecia points out:
 * So, what Karen Armstrong did is clearly a misinterpretation of the source. Moreover, why else would Kecia Ali comment on this if not because Karen's statement did not match the source she used?
 * Regarding your comment
 * Tabari said, "when he married her she was young, unfit for intercourse." So I don't know, maybe their genitals only fit after Aisha was 9 years old, at which time Muhammad was 53 years old. Clearly, as Kecia Ali noted, Tabari says nothing about puberty. And as far as I know, there is no early Islamic source, not even from Aisha herself, that states she had begun menstruating before being consummated by Muhammad. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  06:16, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, Kecia Ali never says that Armstrong misrepresented Tabari's work. She simply states that Tabari's information is different from that of Armstrong. QcTheCat (talk) 05:53, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Karen Armstrong clearly attributes her statement to Tabari:
 * That's why Kecia Ali notes:
 * And Karen also says:
 * That's why Kecia points out:
 * So, what Karen Armstrong did is clearly a misinterpretation of the source. Moreover, why else would Kecia Ali comment on this if not because Karen's statement did not match the source she used?
 * Regarding your comment
 * Tabari said, "when he married her she was young, unfit for intercourse." So I don't know, maybe their genitals only fit after Aisha was 9 years old, at which time Muhammad was 53 years old. Clearly, as Kecia Ali noted, Tabari says nothing about puberty. And as far as I know, there is no early Islamic source, not even from Aisha herself, that states she had begun menstruating before being consummated by Muhammad. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  06:16, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That's why Kecia points out:
 * So, what Karen Armstrong did is clearly a misinterpretation of the source. Moreover, why else would Kecia Ali comment on this if not because Karen's statement did not match the source she used?
 * Regarding your comment
 * Tabari said, "when he married her she was young, unfit for intercourse." So I don't know, maybe their genitals only fit after Aisha was 9 years old, at which time Muhammad was 53 years old. Clearly, as Kecia Ali noted, Tabari says nothing about puberty. And as far as I know, there is no early Islamic source, not even from Aisha herself, that states she had begun menstruating before being consummated by Muhammad. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  06:16, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Regarding your comment
 * Tabari said, "when he married her she was young, unfit for intercourse." So I don't know, maybe their genitals only fit after Aisha was 9 years old, at which time Muhammad was 53 years old. Clearly, as Kecia Ali noted, Tabari says nothing about puberty. And as far as I know, there is no early Islamic source, not even from Aisha herself, that states she had begun menstruating before being consummated by Muhammad. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  06:16, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Tabari said, "when he married her she was young, unfit for intercourse." So I don't know, maybe their genitals only fit after Aisha was 9 years old, at which time Muhammad was 53 years old. Clearly, as Kecia Ali noted, Tabari says nothing about puberty. And as far as I know, there is no early Islamic source, not even from Aisha herself, that states she had begun menstruating before being consummated by Muhammad. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  06:16, 8 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Of course I am not a qualified source myself, I never said I was. Saying someone hasn't provided evidence is not original research. A claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, the one who makes the claim has the burden of proof.
 * However seems like you have brought forward some evidence from Rodgers for his claim so here's my response:
 * 1. For the first point, Rodgers doesn't provide any evidence to back up his claim that Al Aws and Al Khazraj were to break any treaty with the Jews. This doesn't even matter because Muhammad would go on to renew any treaties the Jews had before with the Arab tribes with the covenant of Medina which I will go into detail later. But besides, this isn't empirical evidence anyway, what does Al Aws and Al Khazraj disbanding their previous ties with the Jewish tribes have to do with Banu Qurayza breaking their treaty with Muhammad?
 * 2. For the second point, The context as you yourself quoted was of the second pledge of Aqabah which took place before the migration. And of course the three major tribes were not part of the Second pledge of Al Aqabah, because that wasn't where they were even supposed to meet with Muhammad. It was the treaty that came with the covenant of Jews of Medina, which is supported by RB Serjeant in his research which I quoted before. The covenant took place after the migration. The context was that Medina used to be occupied by several conflicting tribes. Muhammad came and made a treaty with all the tribes to defend Medina together with them according to the very sources Rodgers himself used, yet left out the details of without any evidence why once again. Rodgers basically said that since the Jews were not part of the agreement of Muhammad becoming the ruler of Medina, uniting the conflicting tribes, therefore it is inconceivable for them to have a treaty later on. How does that make any sense? Neither the Aws or Khazraj nor the Jews had rulership over Medina, they were all in conflicting tribes. It is just that two of these tribes reached out to Muhammad to sort out the conflicts, were he planning to settle there.
 * 3. Obviously the covenant of Medina would benefit the Muslims, but that doesn't mean that it would not unite the tribes of Medina. This is made clear in the treaty which makes statements such as:
 * The Jews of Bani 'Awf are one community with the believers
 * If attacked by a third party, each shall come to the help of the other.
 * Neither shall commit sins to the prejudice of the other.
 * The wronged party shall be aided.(Quotations from Ibn Hisham 1/503, 504)
 * Seems quite the opposite of what Rodgers wants to portray. And the evidence he brings for his view is Sirat bin Ishaq page 204 which says:
 * 'O men of Khazraj, do you realize to what you are committing yourselves in pledging your support to this man? It is to war against all and sundry. If you think that if you lose your property and your nobles are killed you will give him up, then do so now, for it would bring you shame in this world and the next (if you did so later); but if you think that you will be loyal to your undertaking if you lose your property and your nobles are killed, then take him, for by God it will profit you in this world and the next. They said that they would accept the apostle on these conditions.
 * How is telling people to accept a leader only if they believe in his abilities to fight against his enemy considered one-sided? I would say it's quite the opposite
 * 4. Rodgers claims that Muhammad was trying to provoke Banu Nadir, I don't agree with him. But that doesn't matter because this is a response on Banu Qurayza, not Banu Nadir.
 * 4. His source for Banu Qurayza saying "we have no treaty with Muhammad" is the very same page I myself already quoted, Sirat Ibn Ishaq pg. 453:
 * How can we even seriously say that the Banu Qurayza didn't have a treaty quoting the page which begins with Kab bin Assad breaking the treaty? If we actually look at the context which has been constantly dodged in Rodgers' work, Banu Qurayza were saying this as insults to Muslims and Muhammad, and made the statement that they "had no treaty" right after refusing to acknowledge even knowing Muhammad. This is clear satire by the tribe as both Tabari and Ibn Ishaq note. This "evidence" just looks like cherry picking out-of-context statements to prove something that the quotations themselves disprove. And this was the only "empirical evidence" that Rodgers actually puts forth for Banu Qurayza's violation of treaty being a fabrication. The rest of the points are merely, once again justification and not evidence for Banu Qurayza's case.
 * And none of this in my response would be OR because everything I have stated is simply quoting the original quotations from the sources provided by Rodgers. If Rodgers is quoting them, then that shows he finds them to be authentic, and thus there shouldn't be any problem quoting them in a refutation. If you want any sources for any information I brought then I can provide it QcTheCat (talk) 04:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You seem to still not understand what original research is. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  16:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * No, you don't get it. OR is a policy that applies to mainspace content. Editors are supposed to use their brains to assess sources on talk pages. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:10, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @QcTheCat: If you had to pick one example of an instance where Rodgers misrepresents the primary sources, if that what you are claiming, what would it be? If there is genuine misrepresention present then it might be worth taking the text to RSN for scrutiny. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:06, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Iskandar323
 * It seems that there are quite a few examples of misrepresentation of primary sources in Rodgers' text. However the most clear one is likely his claim on Banu Qurayza's statement that "they had no treaty with Muhammad". On page 145, he states:
 * Regardless, Muhammad was certainly concerned about the status of the Banu Qurayzah who were positioned within the city and behind the Muslim defenses, and he sent a small reconnaissance team to secretly ascertain their status in the upcoming battle. The statements made by some of the Banu Qurayzah regarding how they had "no agreement or undertaking with Muhammad" again demonstrates that they were not part of the Covenant of Madinah, and at best had a nonaggression pact with the Prophet. Moreover, the statements as recorded in the sources do not imply that the Qurayzah actually intended any offensive action but that they simply planned to sit this one out.
 * He provides the reference which is "Sirat Ibn Ishaq" pg. 453, And this is what the text of Sirat Ibn Ishaq actually provides information such as:
 * The enemy of God Huyayy b. Akhțab al-Nadri went out to Ka'b b. Asad al-Qurazi who had made a treaty with the apostle...
 * Huyayy kept on wheedling Ka'b until at last he gave way in giving him a solemn promise that if Quraysh and Ghațafăn returned without having killed Muhammad he would enter his fort with him and await his fate. Thus Ka'b broke his promise and cut loose from the bond that was between him and the apostle...
 * They went forth and found the situation even more deplorable than they had heard; they spoke disparagingly of the apostle, saying, 'Who is the apostle of God? We have no agreement or undertaking with Muhammad...
 * The original arabic of Sirat ibn Ishaq for the first statement says:
 * وخرج عدو الله حيي بن أخطب النضري حتى أتى كعب بن أسد القرظي '''صاحب عقد بني قريظة وعهدهم، وكان قد وادع رسول الله ﷺ على قومه، وعاقده على ذلك وعاهده
 * Translation: And the enemy of Allah, Huyayy ibn Akhtab al-Nadri, set out until he came to Ka’b ibn Asad al-Qurazi, the holder of the treaty of Banu Qurayza and their pledge. He had bid farewell to the Messenger of Allah ﷺ on behalf of his people, and had made a covenant with him and pledged to it.
 * The word for treaty/covenant here is "عهد" (Ahd) which is always used to signify a legitimate treaty or covenant. The Oxford essential Arabic dictionary defines عهد on page 178 as "Treaty".
 * It is clear that Ibn Ishaq was affirming a legitimate treaty, yet Rodgers used this as a declaration of a "non aggression pact at best". And he claims that Banu Qurayza genuinely claimed to have "no treaty with Muhammad" even though Ibn Ishaq clearly states that this was satire, he says:
 * "they spoke disparagingly of the apostle, saying, 'Who is the apostle of God? We have no agreement or undertaking with Muhammad"
 * Did Banu Qurayza actually not know who Muhammad was? Of course they did, Ibn Ishaq mentions this as a ridicule made by Banu Qurayza, yet Rodgers uses it as proof of Banu Qurayza's innocence, quoting the same page which details their breach of treaty. This seems like very clear and deliberate misrepresentation. A regular reader who does not look up the primary source would read this text and get the idea that Banu Qurayza seriously declared that they had no treaty and that the early sources don't speak of the treaty, when in reality it is the quite opposite. QcTheCat (talk) 01:25, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Feel free to bring this argument to WP:RSN. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  06:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * What is quite interesting here is how Rodgers appears to self-contradict. In one breath, he defers to a single primary source doubting the presence of an agreement, while also admitting that there may have been a non-aggression pact, which is of course an agreement. As you note, the quotation from the primary source in question clearly leans on the satirical in its style, which makes it a poor substitute for a more declarative statement. If this the sole evidence upon which Rodgers relies then it is poor sustenance indeed. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree, it is interesting. And it seems to happen over and over again
 * Another example of this can be found right before Rodgers mentions Banu Qurayza's satirical remarks. He provides another "evidence" for Banu Qurayza's innocence. He stated:
 * For their part, elements of the Qurayza provided shovels, picks, and baskets to help the Muslims dig the trench, a point not consistent with ones intent on engaging in hostilities.
 * (Generalship of Muhammad Ch. 5 pg. 145)
 * His reference was Al Waqidi's book, Kitab al Maghazi. However Al Waqidi's work clearly denies his claim. Al Waqidi actually says:
 * The Muslims began to work hurriedly to confront the daring of the enemy. The Messenger of God continued to work with them in the trench urging the Muslims. As they worked, they borrowed many tools of iron, hoes and baskets from the Banu Qurayza. They dug the trench with him, for they were at that time at peace with the Prophet and they hated the bold daring of the Quraysh. 
 * Al Waqidi makes it clear that this event took place before the breach of treaty. This is because even he mentions the whole event of the treaty's violation in the same book and agrees with the narrative:
 * The news finally reached the Muslims that the Banu Qurayza had broken their agreement. Fear intensified and the trial became overwhelming.
 * (Al Waqidi's Kitab Al Maghazi vol.2 pg.225)
 * And later on, Rodgers provides a quotation which outright contradicts his own theory. He provides a quotation from Abu Sufyan which goes as follows:
 * '''Abu Sufyan, angry that the Banu Qurayza had refused to join the coalition, mounted his hobbled camel to depart. “O people of the Quraysh! You are not in a position to stay. Hoofs (i.e., horses) and fat (i.e., camels) are destroyed, the plain became dry, Banu Qurayza deserted us and the wind played havoc which you have seen, so you should ride (your camels) and I am also riding (mine).”
 * (The Generalship of Muhammad Ch.5 pg.148)'''
 * How could Banu Qurayza desert the Quraysh if they never made any agreement with them? This would only make sense if Banu Qurayza had an agreement and was expected to help Quraysh. Which in turn would mean that their treaty would have been violated. QcTheCat (talk) 14:19, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Like I already said, feel free to bring those arguments of yours to WP:RSN. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  01:11, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I see you (QcTheCat) made this edit. What changes would you like to make with this? Feel free to suggest that edit. Did you present relevant quotes from all the 14 sources? Neutralhappy (talk) 16:34, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have provided the quotes from the sources themselves and the quotations I mention in this edit suggestion will be provided below the edit. And, I suggest an edit in two sections: "The Battle of the Trench" and "The Invasion of Banu Qurayza" And these are the edits:
 * The Battle of the Trench
 * … The Jews of Banu Qurayza assisted with this effort by digging the trenches and lending their tools to the Muslims while they were allied to them. [227][228][229] The Banu Qurayza had signed an assistance agreement with Muhammad.[a][b][c][d] however they may have constituted the weak point in Medina's unity. Huyay, the chief of the Banu Nadir clan, insisted on going to the Banu Qurayza fortress to speak to their chief, Kab ibn Asad, and try to convince him to break his alliance with Muhammad. Kab ibn Asad initially refused to receive Huyay, but the latter insisted so strongly that the Banu Qurayza chief let himself be convinced, first to listen to him, then to betray the covenant.[b][c][e] Muhammad attempted to make reconciliation with Banu Qurayza by sending some of his companions to negotiate with them, but to no avail.[a][d] The approaching Quraysh and their allies, unfamiliar with trench warfare, were drawn into a protracted siege…
 * '''The Invasion of Banu Qurayza
 * On the exact day the Quraysh forces and their allies withdrew, Muhammad, while bathing at his wife's abode, received a visit from the angel Gabriel, who instructed him to attack the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza.[230][232][233] Islamic sources recount that during the preceding Meccan siege, the Quraysh leader Abu Sufyan incited the Qurayza to attack the Muslims from their compound, but the Qurayza demanded the Quraysh to provide 70 hostages from among themselves to ascertain their commitment to their plans, as proposed by Muhammad's secret agent Nu'aym ibn Mas'ud. Abu Sufyan refused their requirement.[234] Nevertheless, later accounts claim that 11 Jewish individuals from the Qurayza were indeed agitated and acted against Muhammad, though the course of event may have been dramatised within the tradition.[235][232]
 * Citing the intrigue of the Qurayza, Muhammad besieged the tribe, though the tribe denied the charges.[236][237][238] As the situation turned against the Qurayza, the tribe proposed to leave their land with one loaded camel each, but Muhammad refused… The proceeds were then utilised to purchase weapons and horses for the Muslims.[244][245][246][247] Some academics hold that Banu Qurayza may not have violated their agreement with Muhammad, or propose that the tribe didn't have a formal treaty with Muhammad, but only a non aggression pact, which the tribe would not have violated.[f][g][h]
 * Edit 1: I added the text "while they were allied to them (muslims)" because this event took place before the breach of treaty, and this fact can be found in the sources I provided as well as the primary sources quoted by the current sources in the article.
 * Edit 2: I added the breach of treaty, mainly in the words of Tariq Ramadan in his book published by Oxford University "In The Footsteps of the Prophet"
 * Edit 3: I removed the text "Islamic sources recount" because it is not just primary Islamic sources, but also the secular academic sources which I quoted, that report this event.
 * Edit 4: I removed the text "The tribe denied the charges" because this claim can be sourced to each source I have provided which outnumber the current sources listed. The current sources also seem to rely on speculation of why this event may not have happened rather than providing empirical evidence against it.
 * Edit 5: I added attribution to scholars who deny the breach of treaty for WP:NPOV and, any scholars mentioned in the current article can be used as citation here.
 * Citations:
 * a - Ramadan, Tariq. In the Footsteps of the Prophet: Lessons from the Life of Muhammad. United Kingdom, Oxford University Press, 2007; Pg.140-141
 * b - Watt, William Montgomery. Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman. India, Oxford University Press, 1961; Pg.171-172
 * c - Brown, Jonathan A.C.. Muhammad: A Very Short Introduction. United Kingdom, OUP Oxford, 2011; Pg.42-43
 * d - Armstrong, Karen. Muhammad: Prophet for Our Time. United Kingdom, HarperCollins Publishers, 2009; Pg.148-149
 * e - Esposito, John L.. The Oxford Dictionary of Islam. United Kingdom, Oxford University Press, 2003; Pg.36
 * f - Gabriel, Richard A. (2007). Muhammad: Islam's First Great General. University of Oklahoma Press. ISBN 978-0-8061-3860-2; Pg.141
 * g - Rodinson, Maxime (2 March 2021). Muhammad. New York Review of Books. ISBN 978-1-68137-493-2; Pg.211
 * h - Lewis, Bernard (2002-03-14). Arabs in History. OUP Oxford. ISBN 978-0-19-164716-1; Pg.39
 * ''' QcTheCat (talk) 05:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If there must be any changes to this edit then do let me know QcTheCat (talk) 09:44, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Those changes reverse the POV completely and are still not NPOV. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 01:39, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The news finally reached the Muslims that the Banu Qurayza had broken their agreement. Fear intensified and the trial became overwhelming.
 * (Al Waqidi's Kitab Al Maghazi vol.2 pg.225)
 * And later on, Rodgers provides a quotation which outright contradicts his own theory. He provides a quotation from Abu Sufyan which goes as follows:
 * '''Abu Sufyan, angry that the Banu Qurayza had refused to join the coalition, mounted his hobbled camel to depart. “O people of the Quraysh! You are not in a position to stay. Hoofs (i.e., horses) and fat (i.e., camels) are destroyed, the plain became dry, Banu Qurayza deserted us and the wind played havoc which you have seen, so you should ride (your camels) and I am also riding (mine).”
 * (The Generalship of Muhammad Ch.5 pg.148)'''
 * How could Banu Qurayza desert the Quraysh if they never made any agreement with them? This would only make sense if Banu Qurayza had an agreement and was expected to help Quraysh. Which in turn would mean that their treaty would have been violated. QcTheCat (talk) 14:19, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Like I already said, feel free to bring those arguments of yours to WP:RSN. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  01:11, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I see you (QcTheCat) made this edit. What changes would you like to make with this? Feel free to suggest that edit. Did you present relevant quotes from all the 14 sources? Neutralhappy (talk) 16:34, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have provided the quotes from the sources themselves and the quotations I mention in this edit suggestion will be provided below the edit. And, I suggest an edit in two sections: "The Battle of the Trench" and "The Invasion of Banu Qurayza" And these are the edits:
 * The Battle of the Trench
 * … The Jews of Banu Qurayza assisted with this effort by digging the trenches and lending their tools to the Muslims while they were allied to them. [227][228][229] The Banu Qurayza had signed an assistance agreement with Muhammad.[a][b][c][d] however they may have constituted the weak point in Medina's unity. Huyay, the chief of the Banu Nadir clan, insisted on going to the Banu Qurayza fortress to speak to their chief, Kab ibn Asad, and try to convince him to break his alliance with Muhammad. Kab ibn Asad initially refused to receive Huyay, but the latter insisted so strongly that the Banu Qurayza chief let himself be convinced, first to listen to him, then to betray the covenant.[b][c][e] Muhammad attempted to make reconciliation with Banu Qurayza by sending some of his companions to negotiate with them, but to no avail.[a][d] The approaching Quraysh and their allies, unfamiliar with trench warfare, were drawn into a protracted siege…
 * '''The Invasion of Banu Qurayza
 * On the exact day the Quraysh forces and their allies withdrew, Muhammad, while bathing at his wife's abode, received a visit from the angel Gabriel, who instructed him to attack the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza.[230][232][233] Islamic sources recount that during the preceding Meccan siege, the Quraysh leader Abu Sufyan incited the Qurayza to attack the Muslims from their compound, but the Qurayza demanded the Quraysh to provide 70 hostages from among themselves to ascertain their commitment to their plans, as proposed by Muhammad's secret agent Nu'aym ibn Mas'ud. Abu Sufyan refused their requirement.[234] Nevertheless, later accounts claim that 11 Jewish individuals from the Qurayza were indeed agitated and acted against Muhammad, though the course of event may have been dramatised within the tradition.[235][232]
 * Citing the intrigue of the Qurayza, Muhammad besieged the tribe, though the tribe denied the charges.[236][237][238] As the situation turned against the Qurayza, the tribe proposed to leave their land with one loaded camel each, but Muhammad refused… The proceeds were then utilised to purchase weapons and horses for the Muslims.[244][245][246][247] Some academics hold that Banu Qurayza may not have violated their agreement with Muhammad, or propose that the tribe didn't have a formal treaty with Muhammad, but only a non aggression pact, which the tribe would not have violated.[f][g][h]
 * Edit 1: I added the text "while they were allied to them (muslims)" because this event took place before the breach of treaty, and this fact can be found in the sources I provided as well as the primary sources quoted by the current sources in the article.
 * Edit 2: I added the breach of treaty, mainly in the words of Tariq Ramadan in his book published by Oxford University "In The Footsteps of the Prophet"
 * Edit 3: I removed the text "Islamic sources recount" because it is not just primary Islamic sources, but also the secular academic sources which I quoted, that report this event.
 * Edit 4: I removed the text "The tribe denied the charges" because this claim can be sourced to each source I have provided which outnumber the current sources listed. The current sources also seem to rely on speculation of why this event may not have happened rather than providing empirical evidence against it.
 * Edit 5: I added attribution to scholars who deny the breach of treaty for WP:NPOV and, any scholars mentioned in the current article can be used as citation here.
 * Citations:
 * a - Ramadan, Tariq. In the Footsteps of the Prophet: Lessons from the Life of Muhammad. United Kingdom, Oxford University Press, 2007; Pg.140-141
 * b - Watt, William Montgomery. Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman. India, Oxford University Press, 1961; Pg.171-172
 * c - Brown, Jonathan A.C.. Muhammad: A Very Short Introduction. United Kingdom, OUP Oxford, 2011; Pg.42-43
 * d - Armstrong, Karen. Muhammad: Prophet for Our Time. United Kingdom, HarperCollins Publishers, 2009; Pg.148-149
 * e - Esposito, John L.. The Oxford Dictionary of Islam. United Kingdom, Oxford University Press, 2003; Pg.36
 * f - Gabriel, Richard A. (2007). Muhammad: Islam's First Great General. University of Oklahoma Press. ISBN 978-0-8061-3860-2; Pg.141
 * g - Rodinson, Maxime (2 March 2021). Muhammad. New York Review of Books. ISBN 978-1-68137-493-2; Pg.211
 * h - Lewis, Bernard (2002-03-14). Arabs in History. OUP Oxford. ISBN 978-0-19-164716-1; Pg.39
 * ''' QcTheCat (talk) 05:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If there must be any changes to this edit then do let me know QcTheCat (talk) 09:44, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Those changes reverse the POV completely and are still not NPOV. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 01:39, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Edit 4: I removed the text "The tribe denied the charges" because this claim can be sourced to each source I have provided which outnumber the current sources listed. The current sources also seem to rely on speculation of why this event may not have happened rather than providing empirical evidence against it.
 * Edit 5: I added attribution to scholars who deny the breach of treaty for WP:NPOV and, any scholars mentioned in the current article can be used as citation here.
 * Citations:
 * a - Ramadan, Tariq. In the Footsteps of the Prophet: Lessons from the Life of Muhammad. United Kingdom, Oxford University Press, 2007; Pg.140-141
 * b - Watt, William Montgomery. Muhammad: Prophet and Statesman. India, Oxford University Press, 1961; Pg.171-172
 * c - Brown, Jonathan A.C.. Muhammad: A Very Short Introduction. United Kingdom, OUP Oxford, 2011; Pg.42-43
 * d - Armstrong, Karen. Muhammad: Prophet for Our Time. United Kingdom, HarperCollins Publishers, 2009; Pg.148-149
 * e - Esposito, John L.. The Oxford Dictionary of Islam. United Kingdom, Oxford University Press, 2003; Pg.36
 * f - Gabriel, Richard A. (2007). Muhammad: Islam's First Great General. University of Oklahoma Press. ISBN 978-0-8061-3860-2; Pg.141
 * g - Rodinson, Maxime (2 March 2021). Muhammad. New York Review of Books. ISBN 978-1-68137-493-2; Pg.211
 * h - Lewis, Bernard (2002-03-14). Arabs in History. OUP Oxford. ISBN 978-0-19-164716-1; Pg.39
 * ''' QcTheCat (talk) 05:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If there must be any changes to this edit then do let me know QcTheCat (talk) 09:44, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Those changes reverse the POV completely and are still not NPOV. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 01:39, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * e - Esposito, John L.. The Oxford Dictionary of Islam. United Kingdom, Oxford University Press, 2003; Pg.36
 * f - Gabriel, Richard A. (2007). Muhammad: Islam's First Great General. University of Oklahoma Press. ISBN 978-0-8061-3860-2; Pg.141
 * g - Rodinson, Maxime (2 March 2021). Muhammad. New York Review of Books. ISBN 978-1-68137-493-2; Pg.211
 * h - Lewis, Bernard (2002-03-14). Arabs in History. OUP Oxford. ISBN 978-0-19-164716-1; Pg.39
 * ''' QcTheCat (talk) 05:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If there must be any changes to this edit then do let me know QcTheCat (talk) 09:44, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Those changes reverse the POV completely and are still not NPOV. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 01:39, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * h - Lewis, Bernard (2002-03-14). Arabs in History. OUP Oxford. ISBN 978-0-19-164716-1; Pg.39
 * ''' QcTheCat (talk) 05:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If there must be any changes to this edit then do let me know QcTheCat (talk) 09:44, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Those changes reverse the POV completely and are still not NPOV. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 01:39, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Those changes reverse the POV completely and are still not NPOV. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 01:39, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Those changes reverse the POV completely and are still not NPOV. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 01:39, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Conflict with the Jewish tribes
"Following the Battle of Badr, Muhammad revealed his intention to expel the Jews from the land." Does anyone know which source says this? And can they quote it? Aside from the tone issues, I don't trust this as correct paraphrasing one bit. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:16, 28 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Sahih al-Bukhari 6944
 * Sahih Muslim 1767a
 * — Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  22:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Sahih Muslim 1767a
 * — Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  22:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * — Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  22:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Banu Qaynuqa segment
Pinging editors who recently edited this article: @Omnipaedista, @Anachronist, @Freeman501, @Sumanuil, @Nardog, @Sharouser, @Johnbod, @VenusFeuerFalle, @Scientelensia, @BilledMammal, @Dronebogus -- So, Iskandar323 recently made a number of edits to this article, but some of them just seem to me to constitute WP:CENSORSHIP. One example is his deletion of this cited material: At first, Muhammad planned to annihilate the surrendered tribe, with an edit summary “Copyediting" . The material itself is supported by the reliable sources cited (I can add more if needed)







So, what do you all think, does the removal constitute WP:CENSORSHIP? — Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  22:18, 28 May 2024 (UTC)


 * None of those online links show me the relevant pages, so I cannot verify anything. ~Anachronist (talk) 02:08, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Here are screenshots of the pages for those who don't have access to the books:
 * Rodinson p. 173 ,
 * Brockopp p. 72 ,
 * Glubb p. 198 ,
 * Rodgers p. 110  —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  04:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * From the outset, words like "annihilate" are simply not NPOV or encyclopedic in tone. And, as you have evidenced, none of these sources use these terms. When one, as an editor, encounters such terms, it is immediately clear that it has been produced by someone with a weak grasp of NPOV and encyclopedic tone, and so yes, I edited it out – not having immediate access to the sources to enable a more precise re-scripting. If your want to add back in after "Following their surrender" that "Muhammad had intended to execute the men" then that would actually be supported by the Cambridge Companion and be encyclopedic in tone. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment: The page is currently populated with a large volume of sources with no quotes, no direct links to sources with page numbers, and often no links at all. While none of this is technically necessary, the page currently presents a considerable verification burden due to the sheer lack of judicious quotation alongside the references. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:39, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * According to this publication by Cambridge University Press, regarding what happened to the Qurayza, "He ordered the Jewish men killed and the women and children sold as slaves or given as booty—in other words, he ordered the annihilation of the tribe." This is something that, according to the sources above, would also have happened to the Banu Qaynuqa if Abdullah ibn Ubayy had not intervened. Thus, using the word "annihilate" to describe this action (and as an effort to avoid copyvio) is not unacademic. If you believe the word is not NPOV, you can discuss it on the talk page instead of deleting it outright, although I couldn't seem to find the word in MOS:WTW. Additionally, you also changed :
 * to:
 * The latter part of your version, "a fifth being retained as khums or Islamic tax," is not supported by any cited sources, thus constitutes WP:OR and WP:CENSORSHIP. To prevent this from happening again, if you do not have access to the sources, please refrain from making significant changes to the article, especially those that alter its meaning. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  07:28, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I've added a slightly badly formatted reference for this that will have to do for now based on my access. Is it genuinely true that none of Brockopp, Glubb, Rodinson or Rodgers elucidate this detail or provide the relevant terminology? That would be especially remarkable for Brockopp. Glubb and Rodgers are not experts, but Brockopp is, and Rodinson is an eminent scholar, even if coming at the subject from a very specific sociological perspective. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * You're the one who changed it, so the WP:BURDEN is on you, not anyone else. And please stop making false claims that Rodgers is not an expert; I have explained this multiple times in the section above, , . —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  08:31, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Regarding your comment:
 * I checked several featured articles on historical topics, , , , , and many, if not all, of their citations do not contain quotations. Sometimes, when writing articles, we also condense the content of one or several pages, so providing quotations in the citations for each point can make the article's bytes too large and overloaded.
 * This article uses the sfn reference format, which only displays the authors' names, years, and page numbers. When the authors and year are clicked, it will show book details such as the title, publisher, etc. This is a common reference format used in historical articles where the same books are cited repeatedly with different pages. While Google Books provides previews for some pages, most other pages are not accessible. And WP:V states: "Do not reject reliable sources just because they are difficult or costly to access. Some reliable sources are not easily accessible." —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  09:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment: While the inclusion of the content is under discussion, keep in mind that if a content is found to be undue or unencyclopedic, even if well-sourced, it can be removed. (See WP:NOTFREESPEECH and WP:ONUS). More importantly, impulsively accusing other editors of censorship is unconstructive and is not really going to resolve the issue.(See WP:YC). StarkReport (talk) 23:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I checked several featured articles on historical topics, , , , , and many, if not all, of their citations do not contain quotations. Sometimes, when writing articles, we also condense the content of one or several pages, so providing quotations in the citations for each point can make the article's bytes too large and overloaded.
 * This article uses the sfn reference format, which only displays the authors' names, years, and page numbers. When the authors and year are clicked, it will show book details such as the title, publisher, etc. This is a common reference format used in historical articles where the same books are cited repeatedly with different pages. While Google Books provides previews for some pages, most other pages are not accessible. And WP:V states: "Do not reject reliable sources just because they are difficult or costly to access. Some reliable sources are not easily accessible." —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  09:23, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment: While the inclusion of the content is under discussion, keep in mind that if a content is found to be undue or unencyclopedic, even if well-sourced, it can be removed. (See WP:NOTFREESPEECH and WP:ONUS). More importantly, impulsively accusing other editors of censorship is unconstructive and is not really going to resolve the issue.(See WP:YC). StarkReport (talk) 23:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment: While the inclusion of the content is under discussion, keep in mind that if a content is found to be undue or unencyclopedic, even if well-sourced, it can be removed. (See WP:NOTFREESPEECH and WP:ONUS). More importantly, impulsively accusing other editors of censorship is unconstructive and is not really going to resolve the issue.(See WP:YC). StarkReport (talk) 23:18, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Maxime Rodinson is not a valid source
Let me clearly note that Maxime Rodinson, a Marxist, is not a valid source here nor on any page of major religious figures. He should not be cited nor referenced. This is not a place for ideologies, be it Marxism or otherwise--it is a place for accurate and unbiased factual reporting of information, adhering to neutrality (see Neutral point of view), and from reliable sources (see Reliable sources). Rodinson is not a reliable source. Wikipedia does not promote a certain ideology nor narrative, be it Marxist or otherwise. If you want to add Marxist comments, create a new page for "Marxist Views of Islam" and move it over there, please. DivineReality (talk) 08:47, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Let me clearly reply that before you make such dogmatic pronouncements you should read the policies you cite. From WP:RS: "Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective." The way we handle this is in our WP:NPOV policy, specifically WP:DUE: "Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources." So, no, Wikipedia is not just "a place for accurate and unbiased factual reporting of information". DeCausa (talk) 09:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Although, I don't agree with dismissing Rodinson, but the current content seems to be written in a skewed and incomplete manner and comes off as WP:GRATUITOUS. It would benefit from expansion and additional context without taking up significantly more space. Therefore, I am considering proceeding with these improvements for better WP:PROPORTION.
 * Additionally, there's no need to include the word 'sex' unnecessarily. 'Took her to bed' effectively conveys the intended meaning, and readers can easily understand. StarkReport (talk) 18:03, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Per MOS:EUPHEMISM, "had sex" is more preferable on en-WP if we're going to mention it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:46, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, "had intercourse with her that night". It seems more formal and encyclopedic and avoids euphemisms, if any. StarkReport (talk) 19:57, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * No, sounds Victorian. "had sex" is the appropriate and encyclopedic language. DeCausa (talk) 21:42, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If we're talking about marriage here, the usual verb is consummated. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Consider views on Rodinson's work like . Historians (and others) can have all sorts of backgrounds. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:18, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 * He's listed up there among the big Muhammad biographers by the author of the Encyclopedia is Islam, so I would say he passes muster as an influential voice. The key thing to remember with Rodinson is that he was a Marxist sociologist, so he always came at the topic from a highly specific (and quite off-piste) perspective that can in places be rather exceptional and warrant attribution. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:49, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 * This man clearly is anti-Islam, should he be the primary source throughout this biography? Are we here to just pump this wall with evil distortions of the biography? It's not even accurate. It's a "refutation." And the main biography of a person is not the place for refutation. You can put it aside in his own page. He's not a valid source, I affirm this, you just like what he wrote because it sounds hyper-critical and that's your intention, rather than factual reporting. DivineReality (talk) 02:36, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * If you intend to edit WP based on "I affirm this", you'll probably have some pushback. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:59, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree with others that DivineReality's criticism of Maxime Rodinson are not substantial. Reliable sources seem to consider his work in high regard. Also, it is not up to Wikipedia editors to determine what is authentic and inauthentic hadith (the description of particular hadiths and their chain of transmission as legitimate or not is a form of religious tradition) and that is up to what reliable sources have to say on the issue. That said if a claim is made based on a single controversial hadith, then it should probably be attributed. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:06, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Agree with others that DivineReality's criticism of Maxime Rodinson are not substantial. Reliable sources seem to consider his work in high regard. Also, it is not up to Wikipedia editors to determine what is authentic and inauthentic hadith (the description of particular hadiths and their chain of transmission as legitimate or not is a form of religious tradition) and that is up to what reliable sources have to say on the issue. That said if a claim is made based on a single controversial hadith, then it should probably be attributed. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:06, 8 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Rodinson is a highly polemical source whose works have orientalism themes and academia has now moved on from such views. What exactly is the proposed text we want to include? If we are to include him, we should also include counter-perspectives from Muslims.VR (Please ping on reply) 04:36, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Rodinson is most certainly not a reliable source for this text: "Overwhelmed by her beauty, Muhammad took her to bed that night, contradicting his own mandate that his followers should wait for the captives' next menstrual cycle to begin before having intercourse." As far as I can tell, Rodinson has little training in Islamic law, so how can he decree that Muhammad violated Islamic law? For example, Dar al-Ifta al-Misriyyah, which is indeed an expert in Islamic law, contradicts this view.VR (Please ping on reply) 04:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Our WP:SOURCE policy states, "Base articles on reliable, independent, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." That "independent" word is linked to WP:IS, which says: "An independent source is a source that has no vested interest in a given Wikipedia topic and therefore is commonly expected to cover the topic from a disinterested perspective." I do not think that Dar al-Ifta al-Misriyyah meets this description. Additionally, you might want to read these explanations from @Apaugasma  and @SMcCandlish . Regarding Rodinson's statement, this publication from Edinburgh University Press, written by a Professor of Islamic and Middle Eastern History, seems to align with Rodinson, that Muhammad's act of consummating his marriage with Safiyya shortly after she became a widow (following the killing of her husband on Muhammad's orders) contradicts Islamic law itself.
 * — Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  05:35, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Kaalakaa, Well, if you overlook WP:IGNORE and insist on taking your interpretation of WP:IS in the most literal sense, then, according to the complaint launched above, Rodinson does not satisfy the "cover the topic from a disinterested perspective". Since, he is actually a very interested party. StarkReport (talk) 05:54, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Regarding the marriage to Safiyya, I recommend reading this article. DivineReality (talk) 01:38, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Looking at that bit in the current article, IMO it sounds like strange writing in an article (part) about history. "Overwhelmed by her beauty" is IMO a strange historical "fact" in WP-voice. Is it even WP:PROPORTIONate to include in this article? I'm quite ignorant on the scholarship here, I'm commenting as a reader on a WP-text supposed to be about history. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:51, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * This publication from Edinburgh University Press, written by Taef Kamal El-Azhari, Professor of Islamic and Middle Eastern History, also states something similar to what Rodinson said.
 * I think the inclusion is important, since some modern Muslims believe and propagate that Muhammad's marriages were not related to his attraction to the women but were for political or charitable reasons. Also, as per WP:NOTCENSORED. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  08:54, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Current writing:
 * "Kinana's wife, Safiyya bint Huyayy, was among the captives. Her father and brother had been executed during the massacre of the Banu Qurayza. Overwhelmed by her beauty, Muhammad had sex with her that night, contradicting his own mandate that his followers should wait for the captives' next menstrual cycle to begin before having intercourse. Muhammad advised Safiyya to convert to Islam; she accepted and agreed to become Muhammad's wife and was thus considered the "Mother of the Believers.""
 * How about
 * "Muhammad took Kinana's wife, Safiyya bint Huyayy, as his own slave and later as his wife."
 * Details can go in her article, Wives of Muhammad, perhaps some has a place at Criticism_of_Muhammad. IMO, this level of detail doesn't fit here. As always, my opinion is worth its weight in diamonds. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:09, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Gråbergs Gråa Sång, Although, I agree with you that the mention of her "beauty" may not be necessary, but regarding your proposed wording above, it unintentionally suggests that Muhammad coerced Safiyya into marriage whereas, this is contested by some sources that mentioned that Muhammad offered her the choice of freedom, and other sources indicate that she voluntarily converted to Islam. I think it does not uphold WP:YESPOV.
 * Perhaps: "Muhammad took Kinana's wife, Safiyya bint Huyayy, as his own slave and later advised her to convert to Islam. She accepted and agreed to become Muhammad's wife, and was thus considered the "Mother of the Believers." " StarkReport (talk) 11:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, it's also shorter than the current, so IMO it's improvement. I still think the rest can be told elsewhere. IMO became wife = mother of believers doesn't quite make sense, does it mean "like all his other wives"? If so, it doesn't seem to be worth mentioning (here). If that is not the case, there seems to be details missing, and I don't think those details should be added here.
 * I don't think my wording suggests coercion, though a reader may consider the possibility, considering her situation (I am reminded of Bathsheba). There are of course several motivations for her becoming M:s wife one can imagine, I'm leaning at "didn't have much choice/clearly the best choice available" myself. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:46, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'd agree with StarkReport's proposal.VR (Please ping on reply) 22:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * As is normal practice, a single source making extraordinary claims not repeated in other sources would best be dismissed. If kept, it should be used with attribution, but given that there are dozens of biographies of the subject here, and given that the space is limited, it's unclear why we would want to keep attributed extraordinary statements from Rodinson around if they can't be supported in Wikivoice. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:58, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm going to concur that the claim in the heading isn't sustained, especially since the sticking point here really seems to be the claim that the bedding of Safiyya by Muhammad so soon after he made her a widow was against at least the letter of Islamic law, which is supportable from multiple scholars. Al-Ifta's counter viewpoint could also be included, and while they are clearly Muslim apologists attempting to defend Muhammad by any means necessary, they don't appear to be wrong that the haddith materials suggest that Muhammad waited for her menstrual cycle to complete. Al-Ifta's argument amounts to this: the reason for the prescribed long waiting period is to ensure that the woman is not pregnant by her now-deceased earlier husband, and if she has a menstrual cycle in the interim she can't be pregnant, ergo the underlying purpose of the long waiting period was served by Muhammad's much shorter one. This is clearly a rationalization, and of a sort that hardline Muslims absolutely do not accept when someone else wants to evade an Islamic-law restriction of any kind; they stick hard to the letter of it. (Just as many Christians do with regard to Judeo-Christian biblical bits, and so on. Hardliner, literalist interpretation and behavior exist in pretty much every religion, or at least every one with a scriptural doctrine as its basis.) But that doesn't make al-Ifta's position nutty, just non-orthodox. Regardless, Rodinson being a Marxist is ultimately completely irrelevant, since where one is on the politico-economic spectrum isn't a religious matter or vice versa. To the extent that a lot of Marxists are/were somewhere between irreligious and atheist is also immaterial, since it doesn't equate to a bone to pick with Islam or Muhammad in particular. Lots of biblical archaeologists and other reliable scholars of Abrahamic history are also in the same camp, and this doesn't magically make their work invalid; indeed, it is more likely to be trustworthy because it will not be pitting Judaic versus Christian versus Muslim traditions against each other out of a fervent belief in which one is True, and it won't be putting belief ahead of what can be verified or reasonably deduced from actual evidence.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  06:23, 10 June 2024 (UTC); rev'd. 17:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * But it is relevant that in this specific topic area Maxime Rodinson is not a specialist, but a generalist. He wrote many books about Marxism, but only one book about Muhammad or early Islam. His interest was one-off and cursory (in 1960). Iskandar323 (talk) 14:16, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * People liked it, though. This article is supposed to be "generalist", isn't it? Oh well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:47, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * see WP:BIASEDSOURCES. Just because a source is unabashedly pro-Islam (or pro-Muhammad), does not make it unreliable. I get the feeling we agree on that, but I want to absolutely hammer this point. Some on wikipedia subscribe to an absurd notion that practicing Muslims should never be considered reliable sources on Islam. I agree that Rodinson's Marxism is irrelevant (because once again, his biases are acceptable as per WP:BIASEDSOURCES), but his lack of training in Islamic law is quite relevant.VR (Please ping on reply) 21:56, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Rodinson was biased. Not a sincere academic.  DivineReality (talk) 23:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * And what makes him not a sincere academic is you asserting that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:55, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I recommend that @Kaalakaa to take heed of @Vice regent suggestions above and avoid engaging in WP:Wikilawyering and misrepresenting of WP:IS policy in every Islamic article as @Kaalakaa frequently dismisses sources that are even remotely connected to Muslim perspectives as apologetic, which also violates encyclopedic WP:Balance.
 * It also comes of as WP:POINTY. StarkReport (talk) 04:42, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Please review the content of WP:BIASEDSOURCE itself:
 * A biased source here is like a religious source discussing the Earth, or a political source discussing the economy. It is not a source from a writer who adheres to Aum Shinrikyo discussing Aum Shinrikyo; this falls instead into the category of non-independent sources due to their conflict of interest with the religion, which prevents them from discussing it objectively. Also, these explanations from @Apaugasma :
 * — Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  08:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Kaalakaa, Kindly, refrain from constantly twisting a general well-intentioned advise by an individual editor for WP:TENDENTIOUS purposes. Again, refer to WP:POINTY. StarkReport (talk) 09:03, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Where did I twist the words of another editor? I quoted @Apaugasma verbatim, one of the statements being directed at you. Please keep in mind that false or unfounded allegations like this constitute personal attacks (see: WP:NPA). —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  09:13, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Please stop citing Apaugasma as if they're a guideline, and please try and treat sources in a way that doesn't resemble highly selective cherrypicking. For instance, preferring Rodinson, an extreme generalist over all specialists from the same period, such as Watt. Preferring obscure military historians like Rodgers while discounting celebrated biographers like Armstrong. Disregarding Brown, an academically published professor, because he's Muslim. Incidentally, the actual source in terms of reliability in the latter case is the secular academic publisher. Generally, all of these conversations would move at lot faster if we could dispense with the gerrymandering of sources, and strive for fairness from the get-go. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Is it about fairness or is about a religious narrative? It's certainly not about choosing sides. It's about the use and presenting of relevant sources, regardless of agreement in those sources. Ip says: Work Better yes. (talk) 22:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Fairness as in the sense of NPOV, balance, due weight, and not simply sitting on one end of the seesaw because the narratives at one end are preferred. This means drawing upon the breadth of all scholars on the subject: fans, apologists and critics alike, without pushing marginal opinions from any end of the spectrum. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:10, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I cited @Apaugasma because his explanation about independent sources is sensible and, as I have presented above, aligns with the content of WP:IIS; otherwise, I wouldn't have cited him. Regarding sources, you view Russ Rodgers, a command historian of the US Army, an adjunct professor of history, and whose book is published by the University Press of Florida, as merely a former military personnel turned hobbyist historian  (a claim repeatedly proven utterly baseless and absurd   ). But you consider Karen Armstrong, who only has a degree in English, as a top historian just because she has OBE FRSL. J.K. Rowling, the author of Harry Potter, also holds such titles, plus a CH; does that mean she is now also a top historian? Truly an absurd double standard. Not to mention Karen Armstrong's misrepresentation of her source, as pointed out by Kecia Ali  . As for Watt, one of the reasons I rarely use him is because I found he also misrepresented primary sources several times. In his book, Muhammad Prophet and Statesman, on page 131, he mentions that Muhammad initially planned to expel the Banu Qaynuqa, but Abdullah bin Ubayy tried to prevent it, while primary  and reliable secondary sources  say Muhammad initially planned to massacre the Banu Qaynuqa but Abdullah Ibn Ubayy prevented Muhammad, so they were only expelled. If you find early Islamic sources that agree with Watt on this matter, feel free to present them here.  —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  13:20, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Since you still appear to be struggling with matters of weight here, let's proceed to WP:USEBYOTHERS. If you search for these various works on Google scholar, you will find Karen Armstrong's biography cited more than 600 times, Watt's seminal work, close to 1,000 times. Rodgers'? 14 in a decade. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:46, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You still haven't answered my question: is it true or not that Karen Armstrong only has a degree in English? —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  14:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It's not relevant, because a lifetime of experience and recognition is worth far more than any degree, but no it's not correct. She has no less than four honorary doctorates, including two in letters and two in divinity. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:05, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * "Divinity is the study of Christian theology and ministry at a school, divinity school, university, or seminary." So it has nothing to do with the study of history, and, "Honorary doctorates are purely titular degrees in that they confer no rights on the recipient and carry with them no formal academic qualification."
 * It's ironic that you claimed Russ Rodgers, a command historian of the US Army and an adjunct professor of history, whose book was published by the University Press of Florida, as "having little to no academic background" (which you couldn't prove when I asked). But now, you consider Karen Armstrong, who only majored in English, as a top historian? J.K. Rowling also has an OBE, FRSL, plus a CH, which Karen doesn't have, and her work, Harry Potter, has been cited over 1,800 times. So that means the statements in her book can be used as references for Wikipedia articles on history, geography, science, medicine, etc.? No, her work is just a novel, and that's how we should treat Karen Armstrong's work as well. Also, please note that WP:USEBYOTHERS states, "If outside citation is the main indicator of reliability, particular care should be taken to adhere to other guidelines and policies." And our other policy, WP:OR, states, "Books published by university presses" are among "the most reliable sources." So, it's clear that using the number of times a work is cited as an indicator of reliability is applicable when the reliability of the subject-matter expert source is still uncertain, such as when it is not published by a university press, etc. Karen Armstrong, however, is clearly not a subject-matter expert. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  16:11, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Your lack of awareness about academic standards, hierarchy and prestige could fill volumes, as you have repeatedly demonstrated, and isn't really worth my addressing, but on one small point: if you think biographies of Muhammad are not a religious topic, you're probably not competent to edit here. The only primary sources here are religious oral traditions. Everything that is considered "history" here is based on primary religious oral tradition, so interpreters of religious traditions, alongside historian, are of course relevant subject-matter experts. An understanding of the religious traditions underpinning these oral sources is of course crucial. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * ... said the person who previously claimed that a military historian is a retired military personnel who became a hobbyist historian  and that adjunct professors are not reliable because they are non-tenure, a statement as ridiculous as saying that a NASA lead scientist is not reliable because they are an adjunct professor at a certain university.
 * What does the study of Christian theology and ministry have to do with interpreting Islamic traditions? Remember, you previously had a problem with a source from Zondervan? But when a source of a similar nature benefits your POV, you conveniently contradict yourself.
 * Yes, and Kecia Ali has shown that Karen Armstrong misrepresents her source, Tabari . —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  01:48, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes yes, very good. More disjointed Wikilawyering. We're all fascinated, enthralled and so much closer to coming around to embracing your sources with cherrypicked fringe material. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:53, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I think Kaalakaa has been established to be in the minority in pretty much every discussion of this issue. The problem is that we can argue all day about whether Rodinson and Rogers should be replaced with better sources (fhe consensus suggests that they should be), but unless someone has access to a better source that they can use to replace them, and is actually willing to put in the effort to rewrite the article, then these sources are going to stay in the article. Iskandar, do you have a list of sources/books in mind that you think would be a better basis for writing this biography? Hemiauchenia (talk) 05:04, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * This article is about the Islamic prophet, so it is only natural that the talk page is crowded with Muslims. However, I am not sure, but it seems that DeCausa, Graberg Graa Sang, and SMcCandlish rejected DivineReliaty's argument that Rodinson is not reliable. None of them in this section seem to argue against Rodgers. Nevertheless, if we want to determine a consensus, an RfC seems to be one way to achieve that. —  Kaalakaa  <sup style="color: #003366;">(talk)  05:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You say The talk page is crowded with Muslims. What evidence do you have to support such a claim? And which specific editors are you referring to? If you have evidence and you believe it's hindering the ability for those users to neutrally edit and discuss this article, then WP:COIN is the appropriate venue to adjudicate such matters. Left guide (talk) 05:45, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Hemiauchenia: Well yes, actually. One good thing to come out of the otherwise rather circular discussions on sourcing on this talk page was this review, which lists all of the Western biographers associated with "more or less objective reconstructions of Muhammad's life story", as opposed to either Islamic hagiography or Western polemic. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Again, an another disruptive wikilawyering by @Kaalakaa, that blatantly disregards the spirit of the rules. If this behavior persists, the user is likely to be taken to the ANI.
 * Also interesting, or might I say suspicious, is that an account created in 2023 knew about a specific argument from 2007. Whether this, what I think, explains the single-purpose nature of the account, I leave it to others to decide. Nonetheless, if this conduct is reported to ANI, I think it warrants a indef block on Islam-related articles. Regards. StarkReport (talk) 02:59, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It doesn't require "training in Islamic law" to do competent research and produce a usable conclusion. Otherwise we would have to ban all news sources as unreliable (journalists are not academically trained in the 1,000s of subjects they report on). That would also apply even to the finest works of investigative journalists, e.g. 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus. And any work that crossed multiple disciplines (e.g. Guns, Germs and Steel) but was not written by a team of experts from every relevant field touched upon, would also have to be deemed unreliable. As for the flip side of this coin, Al-Ifta's people having such training in this subject doesn't automatically make them individually or the organization collectively better (much less unassailable) sources, when the "training" is in large part indoctrination and isn't equivalent to scientific process (or the quasi-scientific processes of mainstream history and historiography). To the extent any argument they make is faith- rather than evidence-based, or is inductive, analogical, or especially abductive (as is clearly the case here) instead of deductive, then it's problematic. Ultimately, all sources have to be given WP:DUE weight, and this is a consensus that is largely determined through consensus-editorial assessment of numerous factors. One writer's lack of professional background will be such a factor, but so will another's being steeped in a particular "this is the one holy Truth" proselytization viewpoint. It is by no means irrelevant that Al-Ifta's obvious intent is defense of the perception of Muhammad as infallible, at all costs (even the costs of erosion of Islamic-law literalism that some hardliners in that religion would be unwilling to spend, and which from an outsider's viewpoint do not appear to be justifiable, as various Christian attempts to bend over backward with double-think and other fallacies to try to evade biblical contradictions do not). But it is also not irrelevant that Rodinson was no kind of specialist in the subject.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * As a side note, the material being discussed here is likely WP:UNDUE for this page and should be covered instead Wives of Muhammad and Criticism of Muhammad. This article should only list the major criticisms made against Muhammad - not literally every single thing every author has ever written. Medieval Christian criticisms of Muhammad (among others) have been some of the most historically significant.VR (Please ping on reply) 21:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Probably so, mostly at the latter.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * You say The talk page is crowded with Muslims. What evidence do you have to support such a claim? And which specific editors are you referring to? If you have evidence and you believe it's hindering the ability for those users to neutrally edit and discuss this article, then WP:COIN is the appropriate venue to adjudicate such matters. Left guide (talk) 05:45, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Hemiauchenia: Well yes, actually. One good thing to come out of the otherwise rather circular discussions on sourcing on this talk page was this review, which lists all of the Western biographers associated with "more or less objective reconstructions of Muhammad's life story", as opposed to either Islamic hagiography or Western polemic. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Again, an another disruptive wikilawyering by @Kaalakaa, that blatantly disregards the spirit of the rules. If this behavior persists, the user is likely to be taken to the ANI.
 * Also interesting, or might I say suspicious, is that an account created in 2023 knew about a specific argument from 2007. Whether this, what I think, explains the single-purpose nature of the account, I leave it to others to decide. Nonetheless, if this conduct is reported to ANI, I think it warrants a indef block on Islam-related articles. Regards. StarkReport (talk) 02:59, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It doesn't require "training in Islamic law" to do competent research and produce a usable conclusion. Otherwise we would have to ban all news sources as unreliable (journalists are not academically trained in the 1,000s of subjects they report on). That would also apply even to the finest works of investigative journalists, e.g. 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus. And any work that crossed multiple disciplines (e.g. Guns, Germs and Steel) but was not written by a team of experts from every relevant field touched upon, would also have to be deemed unreliable. As for the flip side of this coin, Al-Ifta's people having such training in this subject doesn't automatically make them individually or the organization collectively better (much less unassailable) sources, when the "training" is in large part indoctrination and isn't equivalent to scientific process (or the quasi-scientific processes of mainstream history and historiography). To the extent any argument they make is faith- rather than evidence-based, or is inductive, analogical, or especially abductive (as is clearly the case here) instead of deductive, then it's problematic. Ultimately, all sources have to be given WP:DUE weight, and this is a consensus that is largely determined through consensus-editorial assessment of numerous factors. One writer's lack of professional background will be such a factor, but so will another's being steeped in a particular "this is the one holy Truth" proselytization viewpoint. It is by no means irrelevant that Al-Ifta's obvious intent is defense of the perception of Muhammad as infallible, at all costs (even the costs of erosion of Islamic-law literalism that some hardliners in that religion would be unwilling to spend, and which from an outsider's viewpoint do not appear to be justifiable, as various Christian attempts to bend over backward with double-think and other fallacies to try to evade biblical contradictions do not). But it is also not irrelevant that Rodinson was no kind of specialist in the subject.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * As a side note, the material being discussed here is likely WP:UNDUE for this page and should be covered instead Wives of Muhammad and Criticism of Muhammad. This article should only list the major criticisms made against Muhammad - not literally every single thing every author has ever written. Medieval Christian criticisms of Muhammad (among others) have been some of the most historically significant.VR (Please ping on reply) 21:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Probably so, mostly at the latter.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 June 2024
"Change Muhammad to Muhammad Peace be upon him" Aadaab (talk) 23:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: What part of FAQ #5 was unclear? —C.Fred (talk) 23:23, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Inauthentic source: The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah. Translated by Guillaume, Alfred
Note that "The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah. Translated by Guillaume, Alfred" is not an authentic source. It contains inauthentic hadith which have no chain of transmission. See this website and this website for example. You cannot just pick out random hadith from these types of works. Ibn Ishaq is a collection of all kinds of narrations, from fabricated to authentic, without any hadith criticism. It's just a collection of "what's being narrated," designed for hadith scholars to read and scrutinize for authenticity. A hadith without a chain is not authentic and is not a valid source. Just because a book somewhere says something, doesn't mean we can just pop it on Wikipedia as if it is a valid source. This is certainly not and has already been disproven. DivineReality (talk) 02:56, 8 June 2024 (UTC)


 * This is a WP:PRIMARYSOURCE that should be avoided.VR (Please ping on reply) 04:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Revise the sources
This article was revised so poorly by an Islamophobic editor. This article used to be a good article GA before some anti-Islam editor made such huge changes and implementing WP:POV. The biased editor just cherry-picked sources, ignoring classical works such as W. Montgomery Watt and relying on people like David Bukay (an Israeli political scientist who is known to be an anti-Arab and Islamophobic person), Russ Rodgers (a U.S. Army military historian), Ram Swarup (an Indian leader of the Hindu revivalist movement), William E. Phipps (a ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and others. There's no way these people are WP:RS and I'm actually surprised how dedicated orientalists like Watt have so less citations now than people like Bukay, Rodgers etc. I request the editors of this article to rewrite the article, and if not the entire article, then at least parts of the article. I would suggest this article be written like FA articles such as Khalid ibn al-Walid, Amr ibn al-As, Mu'awiya I, Yazid I, all of whom are controversial figures between Shia Muslims and Sunni Muslims, but nevertheless these articles are written neutrally neither from a Shia point of view nor a Sunni point of view and having reliable orientalists and Islamicists such as Fred Donner, Wilferd Madelung, Meir Jacob Kister, Patricia Crone, Hugh N. Kennedy, R. Stephen Humphreys and not anti-Arab political scientists, Hindu revivalists or U.S. military historians. I would request the editors of this article to revise the sources. ProudRafidi (talk) 11:07, 13 June 2024 (UTC)  ☿  Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 21:51, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * How does maintaining a Neutral Point of view make one Islamophobic? 174.80.86.227 (talk) 174.80.86.227 (talk) 15:32, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The sources you mentioned seem to be mostly reliable. What is your issue with them? Can you give an example for alleged "Islamophobic" claims they allegedly make here? Vegan416 (talk) 10:45, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The Islamophobic sentences I was referring to got reverted after a talk discussion above. And can you elaborate on how people like David Bukay are a reliable source? He is an Israeli political scientist who has a whole criticism heading on his own article. He is a controversial figure and nowhere close to the Islamicists I mentioned above like Watt, Donner, Madelung, Kennedy etc. Same goes for the U.S. military historian and the Indian revivalist leader. ProudRafidi (talk) 11:44, 14 June 2024 (UTC)  ☿  Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 21:51, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Is there anything in the statements in the article that are referenced to these sources that you object to? Vegan416 (talk) 12:00, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Not really, I'm arguing against the sources right now and not the text and statements in the article. ProudRafidi (talk) 14:04, 14 June 2024 (UTC)  ☿  Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 21:51, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That doesn't seem so from what you said earlier "This article was revised so poorly" and "some anti-Islam editor made such huge changes and implementing WP:POV". So what's really bothering you in the article as it is now? Can you give an example? Vegan416 (talk) 14:45, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not against using other authors mentioned here as sources if that is the consensus. In fact, it might be preferable to avoid any accusations of cherry-picking sources and to ensure encyclopedic WP:Balance.
 * Regardless of the outcome of the above discussion on using Rodinson or Rodgers, I am suspicious about using David Bukay as a source in this article. He is the type of person who may be relevant in articles like Counter-jihad and Islamophobia, and even then there are better options. If the issue is about the source's independence, as some have linked in the above sections, then David Bukay completely fails the policy's "expected to cover the topic from a disinterested perspective." StarkReport (talk) 14:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Fyi, ProudRadifi is another sock of the LTA Sockpuppet investigations/SheryOfficial. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:12, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources noticeboard discussion
For regulars and watchers of this page, there is a new discussion open at WP:RSN. Left guide (talk) 06:17, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

The same group of people may have some slight interest in watching Arbitration/Requests/Case. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:13, 16 June 2024 (UTC)


 * There is now also a section on WP:NPOV Noticeboard on sources for Banu Qurayza: Here QcTheCat (talk) 14:25, 24 June 2024 (UTC)


 * There is now also this administrative discussion which pertains to much of the recent activity on this article and talk page. Left guide (talk) 08:25, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Overall structure of the article
Comparing this article to the article on Jesus, I think the structure of this article is deficient, separate from but related to the issues regarding the sourcing in the article discussed previously. It presents the account of Muhammad's life as is known through early biographies and hadith largely uncritically, when many contemporary scholars have questioned the reliability of these sources, particularly the hadith (see   ). I think the best way to fix this would be to put all of the biographic headings (i.e the contents of the subheadings "Meccan years". "Medinan years" and "Final years") under a new heading like "Biography according to traditional Islamic sources", and then a new section should be creating discussing what scholars consider knowable or probable about the "historical Muhammad". Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:11, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * As for sources discussing the "historical Muhammad" in detail, the 2010 book The Cambridge Companion to Muhammad is probably a good place to start. Hemiauchenia (talk) 14:54, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't think these are comparable examples. There is a wealth of biographical information about Muhammad, certainly relative to Jesus, whose life is extremely tricky to piece back together. The above approach is also not as simple as it sounds. Islamic tradition is not uniform. There is not one narrative. And there are early Islamic sources that are functionally secondary in that they approach the life of Muhammad not just as a religious narrative, but analytically try to tease out the more genuine narratives from the various hadith. Modern scholarly accountings are similarly based on earlier accounts. The upshot of all this is that there is a spectrum of analysis, not some sort of clear-cut religious narrative and something else. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:12, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The things that are knowable or probable about Muhammad's life are more than the equivalent for Jesus, enough to give a basic biographical outline, probably enough to fill a Wikipedia article, but probably not a full book-length biography. I'll give you that. But there are stil huge problems with taking the accounts of the early sources at face value as this article currently does, as outlined in Robert Hoyland's 2007 paper Writing the Biography of the Prophet Muhammad: Problems and Solutions. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * It might be more preferable to do the historical criticism of facts as they are presented, as opposed to breaking it down into two sections like "According to Islamic sources" and "Historical criticism". It seems that the The Cambridge Companion to Muhammad also breaks down his life into the Meccan and Medinan years, so I would support keeping those two sections, at least. VR (Please ping on reply) 12:30, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Have you considered coming at this from the "Let's WP:GA it (again)!" direction? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:57, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Given the volume of scholarship, it really shouldn't be that hard to create a stable, authoritative GA biography. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:01, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Of course! Regarding his biography, it should only constitute a small fraction of this article. The The Cambridge Companion to Muhammad gives only 2-3 chapters (out of 14) to his biography. Thus, lets give only a basic outline here, and refer the reader to subarticles where it is covered in more detail. The rest of the article should be the role Muhammad's life (whether historical or imagined) has played in law, philosophy, personal piety, mysticism, history of the Middle East and European thought. There should also be a section on Muhammad in art (including 21st controversial drawings, but also including music, plays, architecture etc).
 * Once again, The Cambridge Companion to Muhammad is a good way for us to determine how much weight to give to each section of this article.VR (Please ping on reply) 17:28, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That would be a mistake. As noted in the introduction, the Cambridge Companion "represent[s then-]current trends in the scholarly study of Muhammad’s life and legacy". Not for nothing does the introduction itself recap Muhammad's biography—that is not the focus of the work, and the three chapters which focus on his life focus on specific events, not a comprehensive biography. The Companion does not seek to be an encyclopedic reflection of the man, as this article must be. Still, it is a top-tier source. &#126;~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:43, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Battle of Badr
appears to have re-written the article Battle of Badr. I have concern with their changes and have started several discussions at Talk:Battle of Badr. I would appreciate other users' views.VR (Please ping on reply) 12:25, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Handling material cited to Rodgers
Now that the ANI has been resolved, I think it's a good time to aim for a consensus on what to do with material cited to Rodgers. If I was to start purging it from the article, would there be any objections? And if so, what would be the ideal course of action instead? Left guide (talk) 05:23, 1 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The RfC isn't closed. The in my opinion wrong topic ban on Kaalakaa is closed but to start as you say "purge" the article isn't the right way to improve the quality. Ip says: Work Better yes. (talk) 12:13, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Why isn't it the right way to improve the article quality? And what alternative course of action do you suggest instead? Discussions both on this talk page and the last two archives show a consensus that Rodgers is largely unsuitable for this article on WP:NPOV grounds. Left guide (talk) 21:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I would use the primary sources as per wp:weight. They tell more or less the same story as Rodgers. Of course in a properly attributed and balanced way. Ip says: Work Better yes. (talk) 23:32, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * That makes absolutely no sense and/or reveals no understanding of WP policy. WP:WEIGHT is essentially about giving due prominence "in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in [reliable] sources". That is inherently about reflecting the interpretation of secondary sources. The point of WP:PRIMARY is to exclude the use of primary sources in interpretation. They can be used only for the narrow purpose of say that in "Primary Source Y it says X", nothing more. Whether it is NPOV that that should be said at all is a question of WP:WEIGHT defined by the secondary sources. DeCausa (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Primary sources don't count towards WP:WEIGHT, and discussions on this talk page have demonstrated that Rodgers doesn't count either. Left guide (talk) 23:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Remove this "Following the Battle of Badr, Muhammad revealed his intention to expel the Jews from the land." under section "Conflicts With Jewish Tribes". This is attributed to Rodgers only and apparently primary sources. Neutralhappy (talk) 15:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Looks like that particular statement was tagged in May as dubious by paired with a small discussion above. Are there high-quality secondary sources that talk about this? If not, I agree that it seems best to remove it for failing to satisfy WP:WEIGHT, since it's now been challenged multiple times. Left guide (talk) 21:11, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Left guide (talk) 00:03, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I've also reset a couple of relatively Rodgers-heavy sections (namely "Battle of the Trench" and "Conquest of Mecca") to their May 2023 status quo versions. Left guide (talk) 00:45, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * And now more of the same with the "Beginning of armed conflict" section. Left guide (talk) 07:36, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep up the good work. I'm glad someone has the energy to properly survey the changes. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:57, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you ! Your encouragement is encouraging. :) Left guide (talk) 08:01, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Reliability of Richard A. Gabriel
To piggyback off of Talk:Muhammad/Archive 34 where the original post said I have no doubt that there are plenty of other sources of this ilk that have found their way onto the page, I noticed that this book was absent in the status quo May 2023 version but has since entered the article with dozens of citations, frequently bundling or supplementing suspect sources like Rodgers and Glubb; it may have slipped under the radar as it appears to be undiscussed on the talk page and archives. How reliable and WP:DUE is Richard A. Gabriel for this article? Is he in the top tiers of the global Muhammad scholarship community? Or are we dealing with another Rodgers-level author? For what it's worth, it's also a military-focused book published by a university press, and the end of the Google Books description says Richard A. Gabriel challenges existing scholarship on Muhammad's place in history and offers a viewpoint not previously attempted. which makes me wonder if it's a WP:FRINGE point-of-view. pinging eligible participants from the "suspect sources" discussion Left guide (talk) 06:46, 5 July 2024 (UTC)


 * A few reviews: Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:03, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * BTW, has anyone made a list of biographies etc that are WP-good sources for this article? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I haven't, but this review provides the list of scholars considered competent up to 2009. Rodinson is notably on there, but again, this is a decade-and-a-half-old list and works from the 60s are pushing the limits anyway. On Gabriel (and Rodgers), if they have specific, meaningful input on matters of a strictly military nature, and they agree between themselves, then they can have at it. The problem for me was always the extension of the interpretation of these very niche specialists (whose specialism is tightly confined to military history) to political, sociocultural and religious observations that there are in no position to make, as non-Arabist, non-specialist historians (i.e.: not of the Middle Eastern specialty variety), whose entire corpuses of works consist of hopping about history rather eclectically to focus on the famous past military leaders of history. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:25, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Well, we can use refideas to make such a list atop this talk page. I currently have access to a version of this book by Karen Armstrong, which recent source discussions both here and at RSN appear to show as one of the top Muhammad biographies. Left guide (talk) 22:17, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 July 2024
make Muhammad Prophet Muhammad Expenderous (talk) 18:31, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Per Q5. Nythar  (💬-🍀) 01:40, 9 July 2024 (UTC)