Talk:Muhammad Ali/Archive 1

SI Most Overrated athlete of the century
SI said he was the most overrated athlete of the century. I want this included. http://images.si.com/inside_game/leigh_montville/news/1999/12/08/montville_mali/ 147.31.208.181 (talk) 05:04, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Birthplace and early life
Needs to be some information here. I'd add some, but I don't know any :( 66.195.208.108 (talk) 23:23, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, I (I being the guy who posted the comment above) added his birthplace. That's a start. 66.195.208.108 (talk) 23:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Why is there no mention of Ali or When We Were Kings?
It seems that these two movies based on his life should be included...when doing a search for merely "Ali" you don't get a disambiguation page either. You have to know to search Ali (film).

Hi. I'm about to add in a line about the way that Ali "sung his own praises." The wiki as it stands implies, in accordance with the conventional wisdom, that Ali was merely arrogant and cocky. But, he has stated before that he developed the self-praise-singer strategy as a youngster, when he realized that acting like a braggart would draw out the largest crowds to watch his fights. He has said that he'd intentionally bait everyone in that way, knowing that everybody would come to witness the fight and see him get beat up. I can't remember the source where I read this, it was a biographical coffee-table type book, with all kinds of quotes from Ali interspersed among photographs and textual details of his career. I can't remember the source, but I'm adding it to the wiki anyway. It's an important detail to understand Ali's character correctly.

I intend to expand on Ali's professional career soon, but obviously if anyone else wants to then go ahead. Mswake 16:01, 23 July 2002 (UTC)

Nice formatting fixes, Zoe. Ed Poor 16:15, 23 July 2002 (UTC)

Please finish this off - there are some good links on about.com to provide source material, and also on http://www.worldofbiography.com/9118-Muhammad%20Ali/ [formerly top-biography.com]an excellent source. Don't copy and paste from them.

Regarding the Egyptian leader, there are various spellings including Muhammad Ali, Mohammed Ali, Mehemet Ali, Mehmet Ali, right now I will change the links to Mehemet Ali (Egypt) as that has more links in the Wikipedia, later we can move or redirect it if necessary. ¬ Dori 21:22, 8 October 2003 (UTC)

Islam
Didn't Ali convert to orthodox Islam, like Malcolm X? I'd like to see more about this in the article. Jdavidb 20:19, 9 July 2004 (UTC)

I'm working on how best to address Ali's religious views in the article, and may be making more changes in the near future. Right now information on religion in the article is scattered and occasionally misleading. I'm going to lay out what I've got now here in the talk page before incorporating it, and hope yins can help. Ali's religious history seems notable enough to deserve its own section - possibly a cleanup/rewrite of the "changes his name section" seperating it somewhat from his fight history. At the moment, any information present in the article is awkwardly spliced into a number of places based partly on chronology. The current placement of the Name section seems to be mostly in place to explain the references to the change in the preceding section on the Patterson fight. Although this preserves the narrative flow from the Liston to Patterson fights, it leads to his entire career from 66-69 as well as his opposition to being drafted during the Vietnam War all being under a heading solely about his name change. Whether placed chronologically or thematically, it seems to me that the issues regarding Vietnam, being stripped of his championship belt, and the like should be a distinct section - this string of related events are fairly significant in the course of Ali's life and are fairly well known, if possibly not entirely accurately. Ali's resistance to the draft was due in part to to his religious beliefs, but it shouldn't be lumped into a section on religion any more than it should necessarily be lumped into the section about his professional career. To be honest, the article has some serious structural flaws from the beginning (e.g., the rumble and Thrilla being a subsection w/in Fight of the Century section) that make it different to work with. As soon as I figure out how to fit them in without damaging the structural integrity of the article, I'll get started on this stuff. The main issues, for me, that need reworking or clarification are these: 1) Ali's original conversion to NOI/BM; 2) The associated changing of Ali's name; 3)Ali & Vietnam; 4)Ali's conversion to Sunni Islam. I've got decent sources on most of these, but the article doesn't need added content nearly as much as it needs a change in structure. One example: Ali's second religious conversion was previously mentioned in two spots (see my changes, a very temporary solution), neither of which is entirely appropriate on the basis of both chronology or article structure (and both of which have fairly awkward diction - presumably the author was having as much trouble working with the article as I am). I'll... see what I can do about this. I'd appreciate any help. Door 05:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC) I've made some changes (as I said, mostly structural thus far) and tossed in a bit re #4 at the relevant chronological point (actually, roughly the same place I'd excised it from because I didn't like how it fit). I'm going to step back from it for a bit, but it still could use some work. Door 09:59, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

What does this sentence mean? "The adoption of this name symbolized his new identity as a Muslim, and he retained the name even after his later conversion to Islam." His later conversion? If he was already a Muslim at the time, how could he convert to Islam LATER? Perhaps this might have been written by someone who doesn't understand that a Muslim is someone who is a follower of Islam? Or is there something I'm missing? --Jaardon 15:02, 3 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Youre an IDIOT, first Ali converted to the religion of Nation of Islam and <that is not real Islam as they do not believe in Muhammad being the last and true prophet of islam, and they dont even follow the Quran, and they Believe that Their Founder (of Nation of Islam) is the incrnation of God, which is not true and Islam teaches none of this!!!That is why he converted to SUNNI Islam.


 * THe above unsigned comment was added by T00C00L

Listen the Nation of Islam is an organization spawned from Islam to help build a nation of people. It's specifically designed for the black man and woman all over the world, others can benefit but it's intentions were to build up black men and women. We believe that prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was a true prophet and he was the last prophet. The last Messenger of Allah was the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. A Messenger gives to you that of which was told to him by the Great and Mighty God Allah. A prophet predicts what will happen and brings scriptures along with him as well as telling what Angels have told him of what Allah has told them. Yes sir we do read from the Quran and Islam has gotten off of it's original track that's why Allah had to come, in the person of Master Fard Muhammad (whom praises are due forever), had to come and give us the basics again. Also Allah has to have a physical form in order to be of any relevence in this physical world. So this vessel of Master Fard Muhammad (whom praises are due forever) was specifically made to hold the spirit of Allah, the originator of the Heavens and the Earth. 209.254.250.9 (talk) 00:52, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Gold medal
Ali's story on the fate of his 1960 Olympic gold medal has wavered over the years. Recently, he's been more likely to say that it was simply lost. Might be worth noting alongside the story of it being tossed in the Ohio River, if someone can find something definitive. Bill Lumbergh Aug 27, 2004

Casual reader opinion: it would be nice to have some more info about the present-day Ali

I support the Casual reader's opinion -Wolfie001 20:31, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I know Hunter Thompson claimed that Ali threw it in a river in one of his books (Songs of the doomed?) - if true, doesn't that warrent a mention?

There should be something about the gold medal. There is an account in his autobiography (The Greatest - I think) plus the replacement of it during half time of a Dream Team basketball game during the 1996 Olympics. How can these not rate a mention?

Ali's Irish Ancestry
Has anyone got the goods on this? I am aware that his great-great grandfather or great-great-great grandfather was an Irishman from Co. Clare who emigrated to America in the 1850's, fell in love with and married a black woman. Ali does not seem proud of this as I have read of him on at least one occasion see it more in terms of a white man raping a black woman rather than the love match it seems to have being. I'm not drawing attention to this just because of his Irish descent (though I am delighted as an Irishman to learn of it!) but also because I think it sheds interesting light on Ali himself. Fergananim 17:01, 14 February 2005 (UTC)

This seems to back thing up:
 * Muhammad Ali is Irish

Awful First Paragraph
Man, that first paragraph is awful. It's so repetitive and replete with bad grammar it needs to be completely rewritten.


 * So very true. Someone fix it, now. Kine 04:26, 20 April 2005 (UTC)

I third the motion. I think someone who is a cross between P.T. Barnum and Al Sharpton wrote that first paragraph. Certainly "The Greatest" deserves better.Hokeman 01:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Um, you guys have all the power as any other person, so, um, fix it yourself -Wolfie001 20:32, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Float like a butterfly etc / Superman
The article doesn't explain where the famous "float like a butterly, sting like a bee" quote comes from, and it's quite hard to look that kind of thing up on the internet definitively. Also, wasn't there a mid-1970s Superman spin-off comic in which Ali and Superman had a fight, and then teamed up to defeat... Mr Mykzlptzk (or whoever)?-Ashley Pomeroy 09:56, 6 June 2005 (UTC)

Certainly not, their opponent were the Scrubbs, a sort of made up aliens. Ali wins both the fight against Superman and the one against the alien Champion, but it is clear in the rest of the comic that Superman (with the powers he retains under a Red sun far more dangerous) and Ali had agreed to fix the fight, it's not even very clear whether the Superman Ali defeated is the real one, rather than Bundini Brown (Kal and Bundini had changed places to fool the aliens, but whether that was before or after the fight between Superman and Muhammad Ali is not revealed) (Have the book here).

Theodore W. 11:32, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

How about giving that book an article of its own? Theodore W. 17:44, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

The saying refered to his style/technique. His speed and grace in boxing, being light on his feet ("float like a butterfly...") and his quick, punishing jabs ("...sting like a bee"). Hope that helps. -Wolfie001 21:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Wepner?
I'm reading the page as someone interested in Ali and not someone with much knowledge of him, so when I want to put Chuck Wepner in there somewhere, I don't know where it would go. I would appreciate someone more knowledgeable adding him in. -Denkc 12:16, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Done
Did a short paragraph on the Wepner fight. According to Stallone, Wepner and not Chuvalo was the primary inspiration for Rocky -- afaik, the main person who claimed that the Chuvalo fight played a major factor in "Rocky" was Chuvalo himself. I cited authority for it.

On that general topic, there is quite a bit of undocumented assertion in the article of the type strongly discouraged by Wiki's NPOV policy. (Wiki calls them "weasel words" but I don't like the term, as it sounds too negative and implies intentional misrepresentation.) There is almost no documentation of facts, and a great deal of opinion that is unattributed. I realize that lack of attribution usually comes from the amount of time it takes to run down sources and deal with Wiki's Byzantine referencing system, but some work is badly needed on this.

Also the article overall needs some balance to achieve NPOV.

Racist Vandalism?
I'd like to alert those more familiar with both this page and to Ali to the following edit: The edit could hardly be more significant in its scope, yet it seems to have not been noticed, and indeed is still there right now. The original diner story is widely cited elsewhere, not least in Ali's own autobiography, _The Greatest_. I'll leave it those of you involved in this page to make the changes you feel are appropriate. In mentionioning this, I note that the editor who made the change also added references to a white power group elsewhere in Wikipedia Zebra murders. Ferg2k 06:33, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I've reverted this vandalism myself. Ferg2k 15:50, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Found and removed as irrelevant another reference to this from 129.24.95.222 in early part of page. [forgot to sign this] Ferg2k 07:17, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Cassius Marcellus Clay
Ezeu, you were correct in noting that the link to Cassius Marcellus Clay was circular. Unfortunatly that was due to a bit of a mess when I was merging two articles about him. The link works now, and it seems to be relevant... Cheers --Bookandcoffee 02:52, 15 October 2005 (UTC) -- HIS STYLE Mohammad Ali has a highly unorthodox style for a heavy weight boxer. He carried his hands to his sides rather than to his face to defend him from his opponents blows. He punched to the head unlike most boxers. added by (shabbir bokhari)

Hajj
Does anybody know when Muhammad Ali-Haj actually made the Hajj?
 * I dont know when, but rest assured that he has. It would be funny otherwise - Ali can afford a ticket, he is a devout muslim and he has been to Saudi Arabia several times. If he has not made the Hajj, then we are on to a scoop. / Ezeu 05:47, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
 * During his 1964 UN visit, he reportedly said that he wanted to visit Mecca, but he certainly didn't make the hajj with Malcolm X. A biography says that he went in January of 1972. This picture claims to be of Ali in Mecca on a "New Year's" (sic) trip, which fits. He appears to be barefoot and wearing the ihram. There's possibly a doctrinal issue of whether a hajj made previous to conversion (NOI is not, strictly speaking, regarded as one of the Muslim sects, and this was three years previous to Ali's second conversion) qualifies, but I think that it would since it was made as a pilgrimage it would count. I can't find what month Dhu al-Hijjah was in '72, so technically it could even just be umrah. For the time being, I think it would be safe to call the '72 trip hajj. I can't find any proof that he's returned to Mecca since, but he may well have. It's highly unlikely that he made the hajj before '72. Door 08:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Phantom Punch??
He knocked out Liston in the first round of their rematch in Lewiston, Maine on May 25, 1965, albeit controversially; as few observers saw the "phantom punch" that floored Liston --Can someone explain better that the wiki did?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spentcasing (talk • contribs) 03:38, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I found somthing or it could be a prank
Hello there I found somthing on Sonny Liston  Discussion it's weird, or a PRANK. Saying he is Mr. X 195.93.21.1 (talk) 18:26, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Who is Anthony Pratt?
This article says: "Despite this, he remains a hero to millions around the world. In 1985, he was called upon to negotiate for the release of kidnapped Americans in Lebanon. In 1996, he had the honor of lighting the Olympic flame in Atlanta, Georgia. Every public appearance by Ali is treasured, including his appearance at the 1998 AFL Grand Final, where NFL Hall of Famer Anthony Pratt recruited him to watch the game."

But there is no one with the name Anthony Pratt on the NFL's hall of fame website. pro-football-reference.com and databasefootball.com do not list any players with that name either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chainclaw (talk • contribs) 04:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Ali son of Odessa grandaughter of Abe O'Grady of Ennis, Ireland
Just added the link to Ali's maternal Irish roots. Does anyone else know anything about Abe Grady's life in America, and the subsequent history of his family? The people in Ireland by the way were thrilled to bits when the heard about the connection. Fergananim 13:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Ali's visit to the Soviet Union
I have read an article upon the visit of Ali to the Soviet Union in April 1978 (Tashkent), wherein he had been quoted as praising the Soviet social and political system, including lack of unemployment and racial discrimination. Is the quote genuine, or was it a propaganda snip? Silvermane 21:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Marathon Involvement
Please provide reason before deleting my bit on his involvement with the LA Marathon. Nobody informed me of the reason why that was deleted. --Cumbiagermen 08:17, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

This article is in desperate need of clean-up
A great man like Ali deserves a great article. There are all kinds of errors- misspellings, factual errors, syntax errors, punctuation errors, etc.-in this article. Someone needs to get it right and then protect it. Hokeman 19:11, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Strange link?
I removed this from below the "Professional career" section:

By Joshua A. Logue 

The link makes no mention of "Joshua A. Logue" (who he?) - was this just a test/minor vandalism? Camillus (talk) 14:55, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Real name
Ins't ali his real name

I agree. I'm not a very seasoned editor, but I think Ali himself would disagree with the "Real Name" line in the infobox. -Spudcrazy 00:33, 12 April 2006 (UTC)


 * "Birth name"? "Given name"?  What fits best?  Or why not just put "Muhammad Ali (Cassius Marcellus Clay)"? Peyna 01:37, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

To answer this, Muhammad Ali was given to him by Elijah Muhammad, leader of the Nation of Islam at the time. However, since he did get the proper name chance with the proper documentation, you could, I guess, call it his "real" name -Wolfie001 21:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * like didnt he keep beating his opponent in a (professional) fight whan his opponent kept callin him cascius clay, cuz ali refuses to recognize this name!!! --T00C00L 13:46, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Fixed some vandalism
Some smartass decided to put Muhammad Ali 'the gay wanker of all time'. Just to point out to the mods who should be watchin this stuff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Transkar (talk • contribs) 15:30, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Othorodox or Unotherodox
It says that Muhammad Ali had a Unothorodox type of boxing but on his stats it says he had an Otherodox type. Please Discuss I dont know —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.201.211.242 (talk • contribs)


 * I imagine the box is referring to more general categories of boxing "style" such as someone who hits hard, but doesn't throw as many punches or something who throws a million punches but isn't concerned about how hard they land. Ali fits into what is sometimes called "pure boxer" or "long range" category, so I'm assuming that's what the infobox is referring to as "orthodox."  When the text describes his fighting style as "highly unorthodox" it is referring to other aspects of his fighting style.  Even though his general fighting style might have fit into the orthodox category, the way he moved around and other things he did made it just as unorthodox.  Feel free to find a better way to clarify this and put it in the article. Peyna 20:01, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Ali's style was unorthodox because he broke many cardinal rules in boxing, ie holding his hands low, backing straight up, not throwing to the body, and most importantly he was very unorthodox in that he was a Heavyweight who relied mostly on his Middleweight-like speed. But his stance is orthodox because he was right handed. If you look up Floyd Mayweather Jr's article for example (current Welterweight champion) you'll see it says he has an orthodox style because he's right handed, if you look up Antonio Tarver's article (former Light Heavyweight champion) you'll see his style says southpaw because he's left handed-6/27/06

Exact dates of Marriage and Divorces
If anyone finds out from a reliable source the exact date of his marriage to Veronica and the exact dates of his divorces from Belinda and Veronica, please feel free to plug them into the Wikitable in the personal section. There is a great deal of conflicting information out there.--Hokeman 02:44, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Vegetarian?
Hi, can anyone please provide sources that prove that Muhammad Ali is vegetarian? Thanks. --Amir E. Aharoni 06:48, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't have any definitive proof, but I'm a Seventh-Day Adventist and they attribute some importance to living healthily. That isn't to say that it's doctrine to be vegetarian-some Adventists eat "clean" meats but a guy I worked with at La Sierra University used to work at another Adventist university, Andrews University in Berrien Springs, Michigan and he told me that Muhammad on several occasions came into the university cafeteria and ordered food there and told this man that he enjoyed the vegetarian fare that the university offered (probably the first and last compliment a university cafeteria will ever receive). Incidentally this man also said that Muhammad was exceedingly friendly and amiable and chatted to him. He left a very good impression on this man. Apparently Muhammad had a house near Berrien Springs, Michigan (where Andrews is) during the (I believe) mid '80s.

If we do not have any definitive proof then I say that we remove the claim until we do have proof. Dinobrya

Book Suggestion
Quite a good book about Ali's life, in almost a story form

The Greatest Muhammad Ali by Walter Dean Myers

LOL, we're reading in class, hope you enjoy. -Wolfie001 21:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

"NFL Hall of Famer" Anthony Pratt
"NFL Hall of Famer" Anthony Pratt does not exist? There is an AFL (Australian) Hall of Famer named Bob Pratt, but no Pratt at all in the NFL Hall of Fame? Lunch with Jason 18:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)


 * this is in reference to the "Retirement" section. If this refers to MA watching a game of Australian Football in 1996, it seems pretty inconsequential, and potentially should be removed.  At the very least, I would think it should be corrected (or removed until corrected?) Lunch with Jason 18:57, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Roma Gypsy knocked down Muhammed Ali
http://www.travellersinleeds.co.uk/_travellers/boxing.html 198.187.154.33 (talk) 20:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Missing High Water Marks
Nice article, but I was surprised not to find a couple of noteworthy events. If no one else can supply reliable reports, perhaps I will do research and make the entries:


 * President Jimmy Carter naming Muhammad Ali as ambassador to India.
 * Role as chairman (?) to the Olympics in Atlanta
 * MA throwing his Olympic gold medal away into a river as a protest of American racism. MA being supplied a replacement medal many years later.

--Philopedia 08:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Ali's legacy
I added some things to this section, just wanted to leave some citations since wikipedia is strict about citing everything. Ali won the Sportsman of the Year award in 74, you can look it up in the wikipedia article on that award. His Ring Magazine Fight and Fighter of the Year awards can be looked up here

http://www.ibhof.com/ibhfrmag.htm

152.163.100.137 (talk) 00:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 19:59, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

PHOTO CAPTION
I'm not registered so I can't edit the page, but the photo caption "Ali taunts...Joe Frazier" is completely inaccurate. If you watch the fight footage, Ali never taunted him, and you won't even be able to pick up that image. The photographer has said it was a miracle/accident that he got that the way he did (and that it became iconic). The only thing shown in that picture is Ali finishing his punch and pulling back; there's no taunting that took place and to suggest otherwise is inaccurate and misleading. 129.105.104.212 (talk) 15:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Computerized fight?
What in the heck does this sentence mean?

"In 1969, Ali fought Rocky Marciano in computerized fight, known as, The Superfight: Marciano vs. Ali."

Aside from having no idea what a "computerized fight" would be in 1969, it's also bad grammar (Ali fought... in computerized fight...) Not "in (A) computerized fight"?

'dammit, it was a FICTIONAL fight, ok, produced by a computer, and it was A'' computarized fight!!! if you dont know things than DONT make statements, cuz You or Us dont no what Youre talkin about!!!''' --T00C00L 13:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Leon Spinks section is incoherent
First is says that Ali lost to Spinks, then it describes him winning. Presumably, two fights are being conflated? I know nothing of the history here; could somebody who does, please fix it? Uucp 16:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I do, hereby, advocate these changes:
I do, hereby, advocate these changes:

Named Junior after his father, Cassius Marcellus Clay, Sr., who was named for the 19th century abolitionist and politician Cassius Clay. Ali later changed his name after joining the Nation of Islam and subsequently converted to orthodox Sunni Islam in 1975.

Named Junior after his father, Cassius Marcellus Clay, Sr., who was named for the 19th century abolitionist and politician Cassius Marcellus Clay (abolitionist). Ali later changed his name after joining the Nation of Islam and subsequently converted to orthodox Sunni Islam in 1975.

Which looks better?:


 * Louisville, Kentucky, USA



! Style ! colspan="2" style="background-color: #d0d0d0; text-align: center;" | Boxing record
 * Orthodox box, boxing, boxer

- or: -
 * Louisville, Kentucky, USA



! Style ! colspan="2" style="background-color: #d0d0d0; text-align: center;" | Boxing record
 * Orthodox Sunni Islam

Thank You.

Hopiakuta 19:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Books and films
There should be a mention of his autobiography and I think he also starred in a biographical movie playing himself. There are so many documentaries about him but some references should be included.

Joseph —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.84.58.210 (talk • contribs) 03:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Edits
I made some edits to the article. Doug Jones and Henry Cooper did not weigh 25 pounds less than Ali, or Clay at the time, though Cooper was close to that. I thought it was POV in terms of the Jones fight, it claimed that Jones beat Clay to the punch "throughout the fight." I disagree with this, and I thought Clay deserved the close decision based on the early rounds. Either way, I don't think the article should take sides, considering how close the fight was. The last thing I edited was about the Liston fight, where it says that Clay had a "height and reach" advantage. He was taller, but Liston had the reach advantage. All of this height/weight/reach stuff can be found on boxrec.com. I might make more edits later.-8/30/06 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.163.100.137 (talk • contribs) 23:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Diffrent picture
Can someone get a diffrent picture of Muhammad Ali. The one that is up is a old version of him. Wouldn't someone regonize him as his younger self? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.8.123.196 (talk • contribs) 17:46, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Quoting problem
The quote about no vietnamese calling him a nigger is actually a popular misquoting, according to Wikiquote. I'll add this information, if no one oppose it. --achab 12:33, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Added on to both Muhammad Ali and Joe Louis, discuss
Muhammad Ali's page says that he is widely regarded to be the greatest heavyweight champion of all time, while Joe Louis's page says the same thing. Something needs to be fixed. -Slash-

There is a lot of dispute about wheter Ali or Louis should be rated as the greatest heavyweight of all time, so for anyone to write that either is "widely regarded" to be the best is false. And this unsupported assertion should certainly not be included in the introduction to the article. MKil 20:08, 12 October 2006 (UTC)MKil

I'm restoring it. Both can be widely regarded to be the greatest, and both are. However, I will leave the six to three fix -- not sure how I let that one slide. Stevie is the man! Talk &bull; Work 00:25, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree with you. One, only one can be the "greatest." And if one is widely regarded as such, the other cannot be widely regarded as such. Furthermore, this "widely regarded" language is a violation of the Wiki POV requirements:

''In articles about works of art, games, TV series and other subjects without estimable values, Wiki editors will often try to pass on POV opinions by writing under a pseudonym (e.g., "some fans think Allan Holdsworth is the greatest guitarist ever"). Unless you can provide a survey, a review or any similar type of source for your praise, it does not belong in a Wikipedia article. The correct way to phrase the sentence about Holdsworth would be: "in 1999, the readers of Jazz Guitarist voted Allan Holdsworth top guitarist of the year" (this is just an example, the magazine does not actually exist).''

MKil 18:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)MKil


 * Well, I know and everyone knows that the text is correct, isn't POV, and for the good of the article, I'm going to keep restoring it. It's unfortunate that you want to keep removing it, but I'm not backing down. Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 22:10, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Instead of playing the childish game of deleting and restoring, let's find some common ground. I think that Ali is the best heavyweight champ in history. However, I also recognize there is some dispute about this. All I'm asking for is some outside verification for this claim. Ring magazine, for instance, in both 1994 and 1998 acknowledged Ali as the best ever. Use that ranking instead of the "widely acknoweldged" cite. What my main gripe is that the fans of certain boxers will say that Mike Tyson, Joe Lous, Muhammad Ali, Jack Johson, Rocky Marciano, et. al, is "widely acknowledged as the greatest heavyweight of all time." No, that's incorrect. There is a lot of debate about which HW champ is the greatest. Most say that it's Ali. A lot of old-timers say that it's Louis. Nat Fleischer says that it's Jack Johnson. To evade the issue by saying that "it's widely acknowledged that Muhammad Ali is the greatest" is both incorrect and an insult to a lot of old-time boxing writers. Just source the material and I'll be happy. MKil 04:05, 14 October 2006 (UTC)MKil

Stevietheman, please quit making unsupported revisions. Saying that it is "widely known" Ali is the best HW champ is a evasion of the NPOV rules of this site. To claim otherwise is to either purposely be ignoring the rules or be ignorant of boxing history. As I referenced in one of my many revisions you have changed, look at the Joe Louis talk page for a discussion of the greatest HW champ. To save you the time, I'll just cut and paste what someone on that page put up (from Cox's Corner http://coxscorner.tripod.com/louis.html):

''Most boxing historians rate Joe Louis number one or number two on their list of the greatest heavyweights of all time. Eddie Futch, who devised the strategy that defeated Ali for both Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, considers Joe Louis to be the greatest of the all time heavies. The late editor of the Ring, Nat Loubet, rated Joe Louis number one on his list of heavyweight greats. Boxing historians such as Dan Daniel, Lew Eskin, Ted Carroll, and Bill Gallo all consider Joe Louis to be the greatest heavyweight champion. John Durant, author of "The Heavyweight Champions" rated him as the # 1 heavyweight of all time. Bert Sugar rates Joe Louis # 2 at heavyweight. The Aug. 1980 issue of the Ring rated Louis as the second greatest fighter in history behind only Sugar Ray Robinson. The Holiday 1998 issue of the Ring rated Louis second behind Muhammad Ali at heavyweight. Former heavyweight champ and boxing historian Mike Tyson, in the HBO video, "Tyson and the Heavyweights" (1988), said of Louis, "It's difficult to see anyone beating him even Muhammad Ali". Cox's Corner rates Joe Louis # 1 among All Time Heavyweights.''

In light of this, to keep saying that Ali is "widely regarded" as the greatest HW champ of all time is to simply ignore the evidence. If you are going to say that he's the greatest, then use a source for that (such as the Holiday 1998 issue of Ring). Don't claim that it's the consensus in the boxing world that Ali is the greatest, because it certainly is not.

Furthermore, when you revert my revisions you also restore a passage I removed about the first Liston fight being "widely regarded" (there are those weasel words again) as a fix. That statement is certainly false. If you insist on reverting my edits, at least don't revert that one. MKil 12:57, 16 October 2006 (UTC)MKil


 * Thank you for writing a novel on the subject. At any rate, we can state with full factuality that there is dispute between various ranking lists where some place Ali as the greatest of all time and others that do not.  And the same applies to Joe Louis.  Right?  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 17:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I think Ali was the greatest Heavyweight of all time, and I think it's absurd to argue otherwise... but that's opinion, nothing more. I think the article can say, however, that many people regard Ali to be the best Heavyweight of all time, and the Joe Louis article can say the same about Louis. It's like arguing Mozart vs. Beethoven; it would be false to say that either one is regarded by all people as the best composer of all time; but it would not be wrong to say that many people would say that of one or the other.-11/28/06

Cultural depictions of Muhammad Ali
I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this as a model for the editors here. Regards,  Durova  14:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

NPOV issue?
It seems to me as if there's a negative slant on Ali in the article. Note the following passages "He defeated such boxers as Tony Esperti, Jim Robinson (who weighed 160 pounds when he fought Clay), Donnie Fleeman (who had broken ribs going into the fight but fought Clay anyway), Alonzo Johnson, George Logan, Willi Besmanoff, Lamar Clark (who had won his previous 40 bouts by knockout), Doug Jones, and Henry Cooper. Among Clay's victories were versus Sonny Banks (who knocked him down during the bout), Alejandro Lavorante, and the aged Archie Moore " and "Clay then won a disputed 10 round decision over Doug Jones, who, despite being lighter than Clay, staggered Clay as soon as the fight started with a right hand, and beat Clay to the punch continually during the fight." and "Clay's next fight was against Britain's Henry Cooper, who knocked Clay down with a left hook near the end of the fourth round. Clay was given extra time between rounds immediately after being floored by Cooper, a blatant violation of boxing rules."

It seems as if whomever wrote this is like "Muhammad Ali won, but..." but the "but..." is a very one sided statement. 74.138.210.206 22:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there is a connection between boxing and parkinson's disease. For example Bruno Lauzi was a singer, not boxer, and yesterday he died because of this ill. Jack 9:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

In regards to the claim that Ali (Clay) received extra time after being knocked down by Henry Cooper; this is a myth, more or less. Ali's glove was torn, Angelo Dundee ripped it a bit further to try and get Ali more time, which was a violation of the rules. However the myth says that Ali received anywhere from a 30 second to a five minute break because of this situation, when in fact Ali got about a 6 second break because of it, and the fight was resumed. This can be confirmed by actually watching the fight, which is shown on ESPN Classic every so often, but here is a link: http://www.saddoboxing.com/3416-boxing-history-cassius-clay-vs-henry-cooper.html The wikipedia article on Henry Cooper himself says the same thing; in fact that article has it at 4-5 seconds.

Okay now the article seems POV slanted towards Ali, not that I care, I just don't like POV. Youknowthatoneguy 04:12, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

politics
The aspect that Ali became a political symbol for blacks is very little mentioned...Johncmullen1960 06:58, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Rocky?
Didn't the fight with Ken Norton inspire Rocky? 68.101.51.87 (talk) 06:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

No. It was Chuck wepner who was the real life inspiration for Rocky. Both Ali and bNorton were well regarded fighters. The film Rocky was about the rise of a relative unknown who got a titlke shot. 208.20.221.71 (talk) 21:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The Champ's Family
Can we have the birth dates of Ali's his wives and children? As well as what are they up to now? Ali's relationships appear to be important and it would be nice to know more on his families. Thank you. Shikha17 08:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

concerning conversion to Islam
I was told that Cassius Clay originally converted to Nation of Islam in order to avoid the draft and although I don't believe that, I am unable to find a specific date of his conversion to prove otherwise. The article says he revealed that he was a member of Nation of Islam and that his name was Mohammed Ali in February of '64, but does anyone know for how long prior to this that he had held these beliefs? Gzeta 18:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

He announced his conversion shortly after the Liston fight in 1964, and presumably converted some short while before that. Try searching for "Black Muslims", as they weren't using the "Nation of Islam" name so much in the 1960s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.13.36.9 (talk • contribs) 09:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Nation of Islam was a name that was still being used by the so called "Black Muslims." It was just the media that portrayed us as "Black Muslims" when really a Muslim has no identifying colour.

Greatest Heavyweight
Once again there is a movement to have inserted that "many regard Ali as the greatest heavyweight of all time." This is a violation of the weasel words rule in Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words). If you are going to claim Ali as the greatest, then provide some proof. If not, this wording does not belong. MKil 15:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)MKil

I was looking at the Joe Louis article again, why does his article say this "Louis is regarded by many boxing historians, as well as commentators, to be the greatest heavyweight champion of all time."? The same isn't true for Ali?: In Ali's biography "Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times" Al Bernstein, Mark Kram, Angelo Dundee and others rank Ali #1. I know for a fact that Max Kellerman ranks Ali the #1 Heavyweight all time but I don't have a citation, perhaps someone else can find one. Boxrec.com has him ranked as the #1 all time Heavyweight: http://www.boxrec.com/ratings.php?nationality=&sex=M&division=Heavyweight&status=E&SUBMIT=Go Ali was named the Heavyweight of the century ahead of Louis: http://espn.go.com/boxing/news/1999/1208/221194.html I would suggest that wikipedia state that many experts regard Ali to be the best Heavyweight of all time, or remove that statement about Louis from Louis' article.-unsigned 4:09 PM, December 4, 2006

"Avoid weasel words" is a guideline, not a policy as you keep stating in your comments. All guidelines can be overridden with community agreement. There is no factual dispute to the text in question. Stevie is the man! Talk &bull; Work 21:20, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there is factual dispute. Only one person can be the "greatest," and while I understand you may want someone from Louisville to have that title, there is no consensus in the boxing world that Ali is the best. There is certainly a factual dispute about who is the best heavyweight. The Louis article at least takes time to cite the notion that Louis is the greatest. If something similar can be done here, then I'd be all for it. As it is, however, simply saying "many regard Ali as the greatest" is indeed a use of weasel words. MKil 21:28, 4 December 2006 (UTC)MKil

Would you like me to add the citations that I just gave to the article? I don't think the article is claiming that Ali was the best, it's acknowledging that many say he was the best. The Joe Louis article does the same thing.-unsigned 4:34 PM, December 4, 2006

I added a section about Ali's ranking in heavyweight picture. I think your citations would add a lot to that section. MKil 21:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)MKil

Cool. I just think that if one article calls one the best, then the other article should say the same for the other, or neither should. Seems fair this way, maybe the Louis article can have a similar section?-unsigned 4:40 PM, December 4, 2006

The Louis article does have a footnote that references the IBRO ranking of Louis as the greatest, but perhaps a separate section could be created for him, too. Or once the Ali section is fleshed out, it could just be moved (with a few tweaks) to the Louis article. MKil 21:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)MKil


 * Your confusion regarding my position (i.e., I never said he was actually the greatest, nor do I want to especially promote this, but it is indeed a fact that many think he is) not withstanding, I think the new section addressing this is all right. Perhaps this could be referred to in the opener as well, but I won't push it.  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 22:03, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Repeated Sections
I am removing the repeated sections in the article and someone keeps reverting it back to the previous state. --prashidi 23:52, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I apologize. There was an IP-hopping vandal removing random chunks out of the article right before you came along, and I got triggerhappy. I'm sorry for targeting your edits. E. Sn0 = 31337 = Talk 23:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

No problem, just wanted to fix the page, and I did not know how to communicate with you since I believed the comments section would be enough of an explanation. --prashidi 00:06, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Who is Wallace Ritchie?
He is mentioned in the first paragraph alongside Joe Frazier and George Foreman. But I can't find any reference to thsi person, let alone having any contact with Muhammed Ali. Is there any reason why he has such a prominent position in thsi article?

WikiFisher 08:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)Steve F 15/12/06 8:26
 * With regard to "Wallace Ritchie" ladies, and gentlemen, we appear to have a hoaxer in our midst. An anonymous editor has been repeatedly inserting Wallace Ritchie, a supposed opponent of Ali's, into the article. Wallace Ritchie appears in none of my sports almanacs and a Google search turns up no such boxer. Keep your eyes open for further appearances of Mr. Ritchie in this article and eliminate him with extreme prejudice. A Train take the 21:51, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
 * 10-4, A Train! E. Sn0 = 31337 = Talk 21:54, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
Someone want in and put 'he has parkinsons' on the quotes article, this page was messed up like one of Ali's (LEGEND) opponents faces after a fight with him lol but it still is. If your not logged in and you click on this link it still says it where as if you are logged in it doesn't does anybody know how to fix this cos i don't --McNoddy 13:33, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Small child named after him
Can someone explain why this is important: "a small child have all been named after him."

I dont understand the importance that a small child has been named after him. Can we remove this part?--prashidi 22:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I have removed this sneaky vandalism. Thanks for letting us know about it.  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 00:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Ali Shuffle
Strange... not a single word about the Ali shuffle... 213.224.83.4 (talk) 20:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Nomination for U.S. Collaboration of the Week
Please vote for Muhammad Ali at U.S. Wikipedians' notice board/USCOTW. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 16:14, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Cassius Clay vs. Doug Jones revisited
I removed a part of the article that claimed that Doug Jones "beat Clay to the punch throughout the fight" from the article a few months ago, and now its back, so I removed it again. This is a POV statement, implying that Jones deserved the decision. I've seen the fight myself, I thought Clay won. My opinion on who won the fight doesn't belong in the article, but neither does this person's.-1/18/06 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.244.187.203 (talk • contribs)


 * Point taken, but it would be helpful if you place part of the reasons for the change in the edit summary rather than leaving it blank. I almost reverted it because of that.  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 22:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

The Sports Illustrated Quote
Editor Seicer has been removing a quotation from Sports Illustrated, claiming it is libellous and not sourced. The citation has been provided, and from my reading, the text in the article is a fair extract of Ali's own words. How can a quotation of a man's own words from a good source be libel?

"Now the two old friends sit together again, watching the video of a new documentary that Bingham has brought over. It is called City at Peace, and it is about black and white kids trying to get along. When one of the girls in the video laments that whites go in one car and blacks in another, Ali nods knowingly. "Nature's way," he says, "nature's way."

Bingham tries to dispute this, pointing out that the whole thrust of the documentary is that the races can get along better if only they know each other better. But Ali is having none of that -- and never mind that he lives his life race-blind. Bingham shrugs. It's the old Black Muslim philosophy. "I don't argue with him on religion," Howard says. "What's the point of that?""


 * July 13, 1998 interview in Sports Illustrated

Uucp 21:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The opinion "his belief in segregation" is straight libel and the quote's placement in a section about Islam makes it contextually libelous. This text will simply not be allowed.
 * Further, it is known that Uucp, AnimeSouth and various IP's are colluding on this libel against Ali and causing other disruption in the Wikipedia. Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 21:28, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * First, I have no idea who AnimeSouth or these other people are. Your accusation again me is nasty and unfounded.
 * Second, I do not believe you can libel somebody by quoting their own words, which is all this article does.
 * Third, what is "contextual libel"? I have never heard the term. Google has zero hits. I can't imagine there is a wikipedia policy against it, whatever it is. Uucp 21:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's clearly obvious you are pushing your point -- see WP:NPOV. You clearly do not follow WP:LIVING and cannot cite sources accurately. As for the article, after reading the paragraph you wanted to insert, you conveniently left out the paragraphs following up to that. How nice; try harder next time to push your agenda.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 21:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Nowhere in the article does it show Ali saying he believes in segregation. This text is a clear attack on Ali and his religion, which violates WP:NPOV and WP:LIVING, and WP:CITE is violated as well, as the quote doesn't even back up the opinion you are desperately trying to keep in the article.  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 21:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * From the original article that the three suspected sock's have been adding, it gives a clear indication that Ali was a racist with how the "Sunni Muslim philosophy contributes to his belief in segregation." I have yet to see that in the article, or any mention; this blatant WP:NPOV pushing is a direct violation.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 21:43, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe that the edited text we are working towards on the main page is an improvement. Your nastiness above, however, is uncalled for. I have no POV on this; I am just trying to make a better article. You may be right that some people with an agenda are trying to add POV to the article. This does not mean that everything they want to add is necessarily wrong. This particular point is well sourced, interesting, and material. Uucp 21:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Even if stripped down to the straight quote, it is libelous in that it colors Ali's religious beliefs in a narrow, biased manner. It isn't even clear exactly what Ali means.  Therefore, it is muddled!  This text is simply not going to stay. Time to move on.  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 21:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I lost all good faith when several anonymous IP addresses and several users (whose edit was the same body of text over and over with no discussion prior) vandalised the article, violating WP:LIVING, WP:CITE and WP:NPOV. Before you commit anymore changes, let the discussion at WP:ANI, WP:3RR and here continue; in the future, please introduce new materials here if they are controversial.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 21:54, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Steve "The Man" -- are you honestly accusing Sports Illustrated of being biased against Ali because of his religion? I doubt any publication in the world has been more supportive of the man. The article is quite unambiguous -- Ali believes that some forms of segregation are part of the natural order. What's the big deal? Uucp 21:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You directly took text, manipulated by inserting wording that would lead others to believe he was a segregationist, and then continued to insert it in via socks that circumvents several policies on Wikipedia.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 22:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The only rationale behind placement of this text is to exert a bias against Ali and his religious beliefs through misuse of a quote. Therefore, it will be summarily removed on a continuous basis.  The matter is closed as far as I'm concerned.  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 22:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You are out of line accusing me of ever using a sockpuppet, or ever making an edit to advance a POV. My only interest here is improving the article.
 * Sports Illustrated quotes Ali saying something segregationist, and a good friend of Ali confirming that he has some segregationist views. If this were in the National Enquirer, you would be right to doubt it. However, it's in Sports Illustrated, which publication dotes on Ali, and we have to assume they're quoting him fairly. Unless you know Ali better than Bingham does, this material should be included. Uucp 22:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, not entirely closed. You're also violating WP:NOR. The article does not say "Ali believes that some forms of segregation are part of the natural order."  Clearly, this is an attempt at an anti-Islamic screed, and that's a *very* big deal.  Now, it's closed.   Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 22:08, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Umm... how does the article's quoting Sports Illustrated count as original research? Uucp 22:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * When you take it out of context, add in your own speculative comments, and pass it off as original research.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 22:12, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * What original research is there in the article? What "speculative comments" How is the material in the article "out of context"? Are we talking about the same text? Uucp 22:15, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

(I don't know about the libel.) The claim "Sunni Muslim philosophy contributes to his belief in segregation" does not obviously follow from the cited article. The article text is not very clear, and the phrases "segregation" and "Sunni Muslim" does not appear. One might guess from the anecdotes told in the article that MA believes in segregation, but it is not directly stated anywhere. And there might be a connection between that belief and his Black Muslim connection, again it is not especially clear from the text alone. The jump from "Black Muslim" to "Sunni Muslim philosophy" as a reason is not supported at all.

Even if MA believes in segregation, it is a question if that fact is of encyclopedic value. If the SI quote is the strongest statements for segregation he has made, it hasn't. It is only encyclopedic, if it is part of his public persona. If it is, the best bet would be to mention any segregation activities in the section talking about his Nation of Islam involvement. Definitely not the "Conversion to Sunni Islam" section, which is complely unrelated.--Per Abrahamsen 22:20, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

My interpretation of the quote is entirely different, but I'm not going to insert my original research any more than anyone else is allowed to. My take is that Ali is saying that kids naturally seek to be with others who look like them. This isn't an endorsement of segregation, but rather an opinion about how kids naturally act. Mere inclusion of this quote in the context of Ali becoming a Sunni Muslim, with the quote's muddled meaning, constitutes a biased coloring of Ali. Again, this isn't going to be allowed, so why is our time being wasted? The effort to include this is akin to racism, and that obviously is an effort doomed to failure. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 22:21, 24 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The only person here who is biased is you. Muhammad Ali is an admitted segregationist by his own quote.  How is that racism?  And how dare you accuse Uucp of sock puppetry.  Merely because someone else agrees with my viewpoint gives you no right to wrongly accuse someone with absolutely no evidence.  "This isn't going to be allowed."  Who gave you the right to allow or not allow obvious facts in wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Animesouth (talk • contribs)


 * From the article, it does not state that he is a "segregationist." Please quote where it states that. user:Uucp and your IPs all create the same edits, by reinserting vandalism that goes against WP:LIVING, WP:OR and WP:NPOV again and again. Coincidence? I think not. Please see WP:ANI.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 05:13, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe user:Uucp is the same person as the one behind the other accounts inserting the quote. Unlike the others, he has a significant edit history, and a more mature style.--Per Abrahamsen 08:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Suspected sock puppets/Animesouth  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 12:54, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * But it's strange that Uucp would back the exact same libelous language. How could two separate people make the same baseless argument for a opinion-based commentary added to a selective quote?  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 14:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

It is not strange in the least. He merely reverted the removal of the quote, as the stated reasons for the removal were far from obvious. He explicitly explained that in the edit summary, something none of the other accounts bothered to do.--Per Abrahamsen 14:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

From the WP:COI page: "...the removal of reliably sourced critical material is not permitted." -Animesouth 16:39, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Your biased interpretation of a source is original research and therefore it's not allowed. Beyond that, calling it "critical" material for an overview of Muhammad Ali is laughable.  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 18:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

List of things to do
Why is there no mention of Ali's arrest after refusing to fight in Vietnam? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.47.55 (talk • contribs)


 * Probably should be covered if it isn't already. Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 22:24, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Can we get a list of people in Ali's "entourage" as it is mentioned in the article? 69.243.47.55 (talk) 23:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You know, you could add in some information... it is a project open to anyone :)  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 23:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, it's hard for me just to help with the discussion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.243.47.55 (talk • contribs)
 * No problem. You should register an account with Wikipedia and contribute. It's actually quite simple and I can help out with any questions you may have. WP:HELP is a starting place. Let me know on my talk page if you have any questions.  Seicer  (talk) (contribs) 01:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Cool, I'll think about it.

Ranking in heavyweight history
Professional Heavyweight boxing champions Rocky Marciano and Jack Dempsey should be included as potential threats to Ali’s perceived status as “the greatest.” Personally, I do not believe they are “greater” than Ali but I do not believe they are necessarily inferior either. But I do acknowledge the prominence of the belief that Ali is the “greatest,” just as this neutral article should acknowledge how Dempsey and Marciano are often considered the “greatest.”

Verification

“I can’t just say Ali was the greatest because there were so many great fighters out there. I can’t say he was greater than Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, and everyone else.” -Larry Holmes

This is a direct quotation from the January 18th issue of the Columbia Daily Tribune.


 * Also, based on the extensive Woroner survey and the NCR 315 analysis, Dempsey and Marciano were determined to be the top heavyweight champions in history, with Marciano being the better of the two. While I do not consider this a completely accurate deduction, it does reinforce the prominence of the belief.

And without a doubt, Marciano should be included. His record speaks for itself. He is the only the undefeated/untied heavyweight champion professional boxing has ever known. And while this does not automatically deem him the “greatest” in history, it does effectively verify his mention on this article as a potential contender for such an honor.

Please take this argument into consideration when deciding what information you will include in the article. Thank you. Thedeparted123 03:13, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The verification above is not really substantive enough, but the bottom line is that if you want better coverage of Rocky Marciano, work on his article, rather than trying to compose comparative text in this one. This article is about Ali, and should concentrate on Ali.  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 03:43, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that this article is about Ali. I am merely suggesting that if Joe Louis is included, than Marciano should also be mentioned alongside of him. His outstanding record is just as strong of an indicator as a tile awarded by the International Boxing Research Organization or Ring Magezine. It is substantive verification.

And from the Holmes quote and the Woroner/NCR 315 analysis, you can clearly see that Jack Dempsey is also often viewed in the same light as Marciano, Louis and Ali. However, I do understand his exclusion due to a lack of concrete evidence to substantiate such a belief. He has nothing like the greatest heavyweight record in history or a title issued from a major boxing institution like the International Boxing Research Organization or Ring Magezine to show for this perceived status. Thedeparted123 04:11, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm starting to think we should have a separate article on heavyweight boxer rankings. At some point, we just have to draw the line on how much extraneous info goes into this article (or the articles for other boxers).  If anything, a separate article will keep all the debates and controversy bottled up without tying up the individual boxer articles.  We probably should just keep the ranking info in this article about Ali's rankings alone, and drop Joe Louis and anyone else, with the possible exception where we have a major source that says it was difficult whether to place Ali or somebody else at the top -- in that case, it would be natural to mention the other boxer.  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 04:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a reasonable soulution. I think I came across a similar page at one point, but I was unable to locate it again. Thedeparted123 04:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * There is a listing of heavyweight champions, and this debate could possibly be put in that category. However, I don't know that it would end the situation on individual boxers' pages. If Ring magazine calls Ali the greatest, I think that is a good point to put on Ali's page. As Stevietheman says, it may be a good idea to mention only this and not worry about debating the issue on the Ali page (or the Louis page or the Marciano page, etc.).


 * However, I contend that any attempts to say that a boxer is "considered the greatest" must be backed up by some citation and the designation labeled as such. For instance, I think it is improper to say that "Ali is considered the greatest HW champ by some." Instead, "Ring magazine ranked him as the best HW of all time" would meet Wikipedia's neutrality standards. MKil 14:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)MKil


 * I am no longer disputing the "greatest by some" position. I think we are in agreement here.  I think we should just state how Ali is ranked in various notable ranking lists, and leave it at that, perhaps referring to another spot where rankings are shown comparatively.  I think it has by now become rather obvious that doing comparative ranking reviews in the individual boxer articles is unsustainable, in that it is a source for perpetual conflict.  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 15:09, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

The fact that substantive verification is needed for one to be referred to as arguably the greatest is no longer disputed. The inclusion of Ring Magazine’s ranking as the greatest heavyweight is no longer disputed. The fact that having the greatest record can be considered substantive verification, I think is no longer disputed. What we are trying to determine now is should the other contenders who are not the subject of the site be compared to Ali when they are not being directly compared. Bottom line: Should Louis and Marciano be compared to Ali on this site. They both have substantive verification be considered contenders for the greatest status, but it draws irrelevant debate that locks down the site. I vote for the debate be moved away from the individual fighters' pages, and the section comparing the perceived greatest be removed unless it is referencing Ali specifically.Thedeparted123 22:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Should we put something on the page listing heavyweight champions? I think this may be the proper forum for discussing this. MKil 04:37, 26 January 2007 (UTC)MKil

Okay, then there are two reasonable solutions to this problem.

Either we remove the entire section by 1) denying a Marciano mention 3) removing the Joe Louis reference 3) and relocating Ring Magazineâ€™s ranking of Ali to the top of the article

Or, if you want to sustain this section, than we would allow anyone with substantive verification to support their perceived title as the greatest. In this case Ali should be admitted because of the Ring Magazine ranking, Louis should be admitted because of the International Boxing Research Organizationâ€™s ranking, and Marciano should be admitted due to his recordâ€™s ranking, the Woroner/NCR 315 ranking, and the Holmes quote(which also lists Ali, Louis, and even Jack Dempsey as the other possible contenders). Thedeparted123 04:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I like how the site is presented now. However, I wouldn’t mind seeing Ring Magazine’e ranking of Ali at the top to proved emphasis. Thedeparted123 04:55, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I thought we already concluded this, but this section should talk about Ali's rankings only, whether he's #1 in one list or #5 in another one. Comparative ranking discussion belongs in a centralized location (separate from, but linked to from this article) to list all the rankings for all boxers together. This article needs to stay focused on Ali, unless, as I said before, there is a clear, referenced contention for a top position in some ranking.  Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 05:53, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm with Stevie. Let's just mention Ali's ranking here and move the other list of greatest heavyweight champions elsewhere. The question is, where do we put it? MKil 16:01, 27 January 2007 (UTC)MKil


 * I have two words on the matter - "Super Fight"... Check-Six 06:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Inspiration for Rocky...
This is a very minor edit, but on the Rocky DVD, Stallone talks about seeing the Ali vs. Wepner fight in person, not on TV. I've edited the article to correct this. Joshuaxls 11:36, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you sure about this? Ali-Wepner took place in Richfield, Ohio. I don't think Stallone, who was a struggling actor at the time in, I think, New York (or L.A.) traveled to Ohio to watch the fight. Every version I heard was that Stallone scraped together some money to go see a closed circuit broadcast of the fight. What exactly did he say on the DVD? MKil 03:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)MKil

I saw a book in a bookshop today entitled 'Rocky: The Ultimate Guide' by Edward Gross and as I was browsing through it it quotes Stallone as saying he attended a close circuit broadcast of the fight, not the actual fight. Wadey4 10:22, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Wallpaper
Does anybody know where I can download a large version of Ali standing over his defeated opponent? ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by RatherBeBiking (talk • contribs) 02:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC).

word changing
I have changed word Orthodox Sunni to sect. there is nothing Orthodox in it. Khalidkhoso 03:08, 16 February 2007 (UTC)]

Boxing style
A separate section dealing with Ali's unorthodox boxing style would, I think, add a tremendous amount to this article. There are bits and peices sprinkled about dealing with it, but there just isn't enough here about his style. -Toptomcat 13:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me, as long as it's well-cited. Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 20:02, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

When were his exnuptial daughters Miya and Khaliah born?
any information about their mothers? What were the circumstances of his forming a relationship with their mothers? Were they women he met through his involvement with NoI? In his capacity as a layperson? or as a minister?

Equal coverage of all children & wives/partners is suggested. DavidYork71 22:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

What were the events precipitating his apostasy from NoI and taking up Sunni Islam?
DavidYork71 22:47, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

1974: His Real Greatest Year
To me, Muhammad Ali is the Greatest Boxer who ever lived. Want more proof? Try 1974, Now Ali was 7 years removed from being stripped of the Heavyweight Title because he stood up for what was right for him. When he returned to boxing in 1970, he was rusty after a 3 and a half year layoff and he had to regain the heavyweight title the hard way and my god he did. His victories over Joe Frazier and George Foreman earned a place in boxing history for Ali, he won a lot of sports awards that year including this one. His regaining of the Heavyweight Title in 1974 earned Ali an award for Athlete of the Year by ABC's Wide World of Sports. Now that Ali fanatics was his real greatest year ever!!! Joey Chesnavich 18:45, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Ali The Poet
Ali is the author of the worlds shortest poem, although he is given little or no credit for it. He delivered it during a Harvard University graduation speech. Officially it was untitled, though entitling it Ali would not be inappropriate. The poem is "Me, whee!". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.155.61.120(Slliks) (talk) 18:38, 28 February 2007 (UTC). Slliks 18:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)Ralph P. TaylorSlliks 18:43, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


 * i am not sure which poem but that poem (Ali's) is a variation of another poem. I can't remember who off the top of my head. Ali's poem is "Me We" i am pretty sure, not "Me WHEE" Aka khan 01:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aka khan (talk • contribs) 01:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

Inconsistency
Just a quick note, in the info box it says that his style is orthodox, yet the first line of the text says that he had a highly unorthodox style. KingStrato 00:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I had noticed that as well, but I don't know enough about boxing or Ali's style to reconcile the two. Stevie is the man!  Talk • Work 01:18, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


 * In boxing, "orthodox" usually means a right-handed stance. Most fighters use this stance, so it's the norm. I believe that is what the info box means when it says "orthodox." However, the usage of "unorthodox" in the text probably means that Ali's style of boxing was unusual. So his stance is orthodox but his style is unorthodox. I changed the infobox to reflect this. MKil 20:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)MKil

In-line citations
Would anybody mind if I put page numbers in from Thomas Hauser's book? This article could be a GA if you really wanted it to be. andreasegde 22:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistancy regarding date of diagnosis
The date in which Muhammad Ali was diagnosed with Parkinson's has not been properly specified and instead has been referred to as "the early 1980s."


 * Fixed it, and corrected the disease to Parkinsonism syndrome. andreasegde 17:59, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Ali after Manilla and Freddie Pacheco's departure
There isn't really any substanitive proof to state that Ali had declined after the Thrilla in Manilla. Most of it is speculation, and thus the inclusion of the claim that both Ali and Joe Frazier were never the same after the Thrilla in Manilla fight violates Wikipedia's rules of neutrality. I personally think the sentence should be removed. Ali's few subpar performances towards the latter end of his career can easily be attributed to lack of training and/or overconfidence due to the fact he was the world champion at the time.

Also there are multiple conflicting reports as to why Muhammad Ali's fight Doctor Freddie Pacheco left Ali's entourage, some stating Ali's slowed reflexes, and others stating that Pacheco took tests of Ali that revealed damage to Ali's kidneys. Perhaps it would be better to generalize the statement rather than give a clear cause, such as "Freddie Pacheco left Ali's team in the late 1970s after it became clear that boxing was taking its toll on the fighter and when his warnings that Ali should retire were ignored." This information should be either revised or deleted as well.

This unsigned post was written by Rumble74.


 * Fixed citation for Pacheco and why/when he left. andreasegde 10:10, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Worst boxing decision ever!?
Can someone please give me the link to the article or source that says this? (Unsigned)


 * It's POV, and if it's unreferenced, it should be deleted forthwith. andreasegde 10:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Did he win or lose?

 * The text says:
 * Ali would retain his title until a February 1978 loss to 1976 Olympic champion Leon Spinks, notable due to Spinks' lack of professional experience (only seven fights going). In the September rematch in New Orleans at the Superdome, Spinks' cornerman Georgie Benton walked out of the ring after the 6th round, later commenting that he did not think the fight was on the level. Ali was given a 15-round decision over the disoriented Spinks. Then on June 27, 1979, he announced his retirement and vacated the title.
 * shouldn't it be "defeat over"?
 * --Ben T/C 22:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I would say that the whole paragraph is POV, unreferenced, and should go. andreasegde 03:50, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

New page in catalan
Muhammad Ali's article's name has changed to Muhammad Ali (boxador), The updated link to catalan wikipedia must be "Muhammad Ali (boxador)". Please, someone change it in the languages link's list, cos the source is protected. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.23.215.111 (talk) 17:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

Cassius Marsellus (Marcellus) Clay

Would one of the editors please check and correct the spelling?

140.226.57.214 20:14, 14 May 2007 (UTC)cu00dj

Music
It may be a minor episode in a great life, but it is a part of the picture, and I put in a mention of Ali's 1960s release of Stand by Me as a single. I do not remember the precise date (though I was able to check the release date of the "I am the Greatest" Columbia album as 1963). I have seen one soul website quote the release date for the single as 1966, but I remember hearing both the Ali version and the Kenny Lynch version of the single played on the same episode of the UK BBC program "Juke Box Jury", and the Kenny Lynch article quotes 1964 as the date of release of Lynch's version, so 1964 seems more likely (at least for the UK release). I am not certain enough of the date to put that in the main article, though. It would be good if someone could verify a more precise release date and update the article accordingly. Messagetolove 19:53, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Cancelation of the Liston fight
It says that the first Liston fight was almost canceled because they saw Ali with Malcolm X in Miami. First, there is a gramatical mistake there (overlookedthis- ...). Second, I couldnt find anything on the web about this and it cites no reference, not even a book. I'm not touching this for now, leaving it to someone who has actually read a book about Ali or is a big fan of him (I know nothing of Ali). Outsid3r 21:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: This is the date that line was added: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Muhammad_Ali&diff=next&oldid=130217354 That same edit put the words ".........which being an old farmboy has always made me glad..." into Malcolm X's mouth which I couldn't find anywhere on the internet. That makes me think thats a suspicious edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Outsid3r (talk • contribs) 21:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, I'm removing those words myself since noone has bothered giving his/her expertise in the subject.Outsid3r 01:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know about what Malcolm X said, but I think that the

near cancellation of the Liston fight is detailed in the autobiography "The Greatest" (with Richard Durham). Someone needs to check, though. Messagetolove 06:16, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * All I removed was "History has largely overlooked this" which is quite harmless. The almost-cancellation of the fight still remains there, although I still insist that someone provides a reference, even just a book title. To say that "they wanted to deny someone the right to the World Heavyweight Champion title because he was seen with a black man that peacefully defended the rights of people with color in the US and later worldwide" is a pretty harsh speculation and should NOT pass unedited. Outsid3r 21:43, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Is he the greatest boxer the world has ever seen?


 * No problem for me. I just wanted to say that there is a general reference to the incident in that book,

since you asked for a book reference. I didn't (and don't), want to get into political issues. As to the postscript question, which I presume came from you, I am no boxing expert, but I saw at least on TV, most of Ali's fights ( from the first Liston fight), and he was the best I saw. I don't think you can compare boxers, or athletes in general, from different eras. But Ali must have had a higher world profile than any other sports personality. Messagetolove 06:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Of course the postscript question did [not] come from me :) . If you check the discussion history, it came by an IP: 221.128.134.155 . Then lets add "The Greatest" as a reference and if anyone has anything against, let them correct it. Its useless getting into deep bureaucracies when some kid can come later and make a pandemonium of the article.Outsid3r 05:15, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I located my copy of "The Greatest: My On Story" by Ali, with Richard Durham (this is the version published in the UK in 1976, by Mayflower books). The story of the "almost cancellation" of the first Liston fight is detailed on pages 121-138 of that book.

Messagetolove 21:44, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Foreman Change
Ali knocked out foreman at the end of the 8th round, not the 7th. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.253.24.27 (talk • contribs) 17:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Unnecessary blockquotes
I changed two blockquotes into inline quotations on the "Vietnam War nearly ends career" section. I did so because blockquotations are used only if the cited text takes four lines or more, and neither quotation took this long. For more information see Manual of Style.

MetaManFromTomorrow 19:36, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Quotes section should be moved into WikiQuote
Here are Ali's quotes that were added to the article. Normally we don't have quotes sections because that's what WikiQuote is for... we can easily provide a link to that project.


 * "I'm so fast that last night I turned off the light switch in my hotel room and was in bed before the room went black."


 * "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up."


 * "To be a great champion you must believe you are the best. If you're not, pretend you are."


 * "If my fans think I can do everything I say I can do, then they're crazier than I am."


 * "God gave me this illness to remind me that I'm not number One; he is."


 * "Superman don't need no seat belt." [Comment to flight attendant, who replied, 'Superman don't need no airplane, either.']


 * "I'll beat him so bad he'll need a shoehorn to put his hat on."


 * "If you even dream of beating me you'd better wake up and apologize."


 * "I like your mom." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.74.26.145 (talk) 18:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * "Fifteen referees. I want fifteen referees to be at this fight because there ain't no one man who can keep up with the pace I'm gonna set except me. There's not a man alive who can whup me. I'm too fast. I'm too smart. I'm too pretty. I should be a postage stamp. That's the only way I'll ever get licked."

Stevie is the man! Talk &bull; Work 15:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Just checked the article, and there's already a link to WikiQuote. Please feel free to add quotes there. Thanks! Stevie is the man! Talk &bull; Work 15:30, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Failed GA
I failed this article for several reasons, and it will take some time to get it fixed


 * 1) It's poorly sourced for it's length, only 16 ciations in a article that is about 50 KB in length.
 * 2) There are whole sections that are completely unsourced
 * 3) Poor prose thoughout, many grammar errors and one sentence paragraphs.
 * 4) Merge or remove the Ranking in heavyweight history subsection, unless it could be expanded more than a sentence
 * 5) The Ali in the media section should be converted into prose
 * 6) The last sentence of in retirement should be moved to the personal life section
 * 7) Needs a bit of a trimming his biography section, needs more info about his legacy (which is poorly sourced anyways).
 * 8) Lead needs to be expanded per WP:LEAD
 * 9) Needs a strong PoV check, parts of the article is written from a fan perpective, sentences like "Cassius Clay indeed "Shook up the world!" as he promised." should be removed.

There are more issues with this article, I hope this helps. Jaranda wat's sup 23:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for all the great input. I wasn't totally certain before submitting that the article was ready for GA, but this information should help us take the article there. Cheers!  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 02:36, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

quote?
This entry says, "Ali also said in 1966: 'I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong ... They never called me a nigger.'" without attribution. Wikiquote files this under "Misattributed" quotes, and claims that Ali biographer Thomas Hauser found no evidence of this quote after extensively searching. Perhaps Wikipedia should attribute its use of this quote?

Nishri 15:09, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It was actually very easy to find credible sources for the quote, although it does appear that the quote has some variations to it. Just because somebody calls themselves a biographer doesn't mean they know how to do extensive searches -- I know this from personal experience. One would have to ask, how does Time and Newsweek report on something that has no basis?  Since we try to base material in this encyclopedia on what can be referenced, the greater weight is on Ali saying these words rather than not saying them. Somebody not being able to find something isn't notable.  What would be notable would be Ali saying "I didn't say that". Did Hauser ask Ali?  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 16:22, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I remember seeing film clips of Ali making that statement (at least the first part), which I believe happened at a press conference following his refusal to be inducted, although I could be wrong on that point. However, I haven't seen the actual clip in recent years, although I've read reports about it. Surely the major networks would have it in their archives. --NameThatWorks 17:20, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have certainly seen the "I ain't got no quarrel with them Vietcong" in more than one clip-said on more than one occasion-if my memory is accurate, he said it in an interview with Harry Carpenter on BBC TV (UK), among other occasions. This will surely be in BBC archives. I do not recall hearing or seeing the second part of the quote. The (first part of the) quote was worldwide news at the time, so surely is not too hard to source.Messagetolove 19:02, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The full quote is based on a verifiable reference. Unless a counter-reference can be found, it probably needs to stay as-is.  Stevie is the man!  Talk &bull; Work 03:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The quote in [8] only gives the first part. The quote in [9] was indirect in a 1994 article,where it says "Ali was quoted as saying" the full quote,but it does not say where,when or by whom,and does not give any other verification. There are film clips including the first part of the quote. Is there any film clip or contemporary evidence of the full quote?Messagetolove (talk) 23:44, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Religion
So, does he reject the NOI now after converting in 1975? What are his views on them now? Also, what are his views of Malcolm X now? Is their a book documentary or book on this or can you give me some references here? I think these things need to be under the religion section of the article. Robert C Prenic 07:24, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Merge proposal

 * Proposal to merge article Rahman Ali (brother of Muhammad Ali) into Muhammad's article due to lack of information to cite into the article for Rahman. First the article needs refernces before being merged into Muhammad's article. Jahnx 05:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Style
22:09, 24 October 2007 (UTC)style - what about his style? - lowered hands, foot speed, swaying his head to avoid punches, ali shuffle etc? Also although were are all tired of hearing it his two fights with Hnery Coooper- they were important in his career and in particular the first as it set him up with Sonny Liston  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.94.94.105 (talk)

Ethnicity: Multi-Racial
In the statistics box at the top of the page he is described as "multi-racial". There is no citation given for this claim. If he is multiracial then I think more detail as regards his heritage should be given in the "Biography" section.

Static Sleepstorm 14:24, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

In the statistics box at the top of the page he is described now as "	African-American". There is no citation given for this claim. If he is 	African-American then I think more detail as regards to his heritage should be given in the "Biography" section considering that a few websites claim that he is part "Irish" and that "his Irish ancestor Abe Grady married an African American woman their son also married an African-American and one of the daughters of that union was Ali's mother, named Odessa Lee Grady". Mark667 (talk) 20:04, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * He's neither African-American nor Irish. He's clearly Scandinavian! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.231.226.22 (talk) 23:41, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Sunni?
Isn't he a Sufi now? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.162.21 (talk) 19:26, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Trading cards
To User:68.227.39.74: Your point about the various other references is well taken but does not strengthen your case for inclusion; rather, it suggests that the "Pop culture" section should be reworked as a "Bibliography". Trading cards and autographs are not particularly notable; they exist for literally thousands of athletes, and unless they are particularly rare or important (T206 Honus Wagner comes to mind) there's really nothing to be said here that couldn't also be said of those other athletes.

You do have a point about video games and other references, and perhaps those should be trimmed down. Doing so, however, does not militate for the inclusion of trading cards and autographs.

Also, if you're going to spout off about how you've "published about Ali for over a decade", your real identity (or at least your pen name) would help, instead of just hiding behind an IP address. Simishag (talk) 00:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

-- I hardly spouted off. And if any degree of rancor was apparent it might have been in response to the uneven approach here or the rash dismissiveness of its self-appointed judiciary. Your editing predecessor simply ignored the inconsistency that you now recognize and responded with a succinct and arrogant "disagreed."

Ali's autographs are most sought after and of interest to millions, far moreso than the anecdotal interest in video games which have no shelf life as his EXTREMELY VALUABLE trading cards might. For example, Ali's cards have multiple recorded sales in the five figure range which exceeds 99% of other cardboard issues.


 * At the very least, the specific nature of your claims demands verification through proper sources. Please see WP:V. Simishag (talk) 01:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

So, when I saw video games and comic books listed as items of pop culture quite sensibly I felt that trading cards and autographs meet that standard easily. If cards and autos can't be discussed, much to the benefit of a vast community, then the silly video/comics references must go too.


 * This sort of if-then "analysis" is not going to win you any friends here. You are conflating the dispute over your content with unrelated content that has existed for some time and was not (until now) in dispute. Your most recent changes are disruptive and your use of terms like "anecdotal" and "silly" are suggestive of pushing an agenda. Simishag (talk) 01:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

It might also be of benefit to be on the lookout for individuals who can contribute and welcome them rather than this dismissive, uneven and otherwise exclusive approach that seems in stark contrast to the Wikipedia mission statement.


 * Yes, well, that goes both ways. Your rapid fire reverts do not suggest a collegial attitude. Simishag (talk) 01:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Along these lines, no one's hiding behind an IP address as you foolishly stated. Wikipedia assigns that moniker until you officially register which I did nearly immediately.


 * Your identity is still unclear. You claim to be a publisher (or perhaps you meant author). What have you written that makes you an authority on Ali? Surely you can provide a bibliography of your works. Simishag (talk) 01:11, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Get off your horses, boys. Your behavior thus far seems akin to a stock message board, not a community information source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KurtScribe (talk • contribs) 00:56, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Inadequate Discussion of Supreme Court Decision
The discussion regarding the Supreme Court case is incomplete. The result of the decision is not clearly stated, and there is no analysis of the reasons that the Court overturned the lower court decisions. The text as it presently exists also suggests that the Court was moved by increasing public support. To suggest the Court acted on that basis, and not according to the law, amounts to an attack on the integrity of the Justices. If it is true, it needs to be supported by citation to the source material. - John Paul Parks 130.13.4.81 (talk) 17:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

The Greatest
Do we not all agree that Ali was the best? Stop arguing and put references in. I am totally shocked that such a famous person does not have a GA article or an FA rating. Read the books. --andreasegde (talk) 19:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

he wasn't. don't get me wrong, I am a huge ali fan but he wasn't and he even said he wasn't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.84.240.53 (talk) 20:30, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Claim?
I have seen this claim, "Joe Frazier, who had become champion during Ali's absence from the ring, often gave financial assistance to Ali during this time." on a number of occasions do we have any source for it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.234.10.144 (talk) 14:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Famous sayings
"Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.179.139.5 (talk) 18:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

who ever wrote this is a complete dork he was not born on 1942 he was born on 1942 i know he is mt uncle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.247.112.12 (talk) 18:34, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

protected
why is it protected? Ieditrandom (talk) 22:04, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * well, why can't i edit it if i'm a registered user? Ieditrandom (talk) 22:09, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Your account has to be active for four days and make at least 10 edits efore you can edit semi-protected pages. Please see WP:AUTOCONFIRM for more. Thingg &#8853; &#8855;  22:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding his "conversion" to Sufism
Sufism/Tasawwuf is a part of Sunni Muslim orthodoxy. In fact, all the major Sufi orders, such as the Qadri and Naqshbandi orders, are Sunni in belief, and the majority of "folk" Muslims accept Sufism as a part of Islam. So its quite misleading to suggest that Ali has left Sunni Islam and "converted" to Sufism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.202.74.134 (talk) 17:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

What about Ali's time in prison?
In the biography, the brief mention of his sentence for refusing to serve in Vietnam omits any mention of where he was imprisoned and the dates of his imprisonment. Worker11811 (talk) 03:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Linear Champion?
To date, he remains the only man to have won the linear heavyweight championship three times (the linear title is recognized by tracing an - almost - unbroken lineage of titleholders going back over 100 years, with nearly every champion defeating the previous titleholder in the ring)

Not true. There is no linear heavyweight championship, not even when Ali was in his pomp. The idea of the linear champion is a boxer who wins the championship by beating the previous champion and then he loses to the next champion and so on. The line of men who beat the men was broken when Gene Tunney retired as champion in 1928. Max Schmeling and Jack Sharkey fought for the vacant title but neither was the linear champ as neither had beaten Tunney. 30 years later in Rocky Marciano also retired as champion and Floyd Patterson and Archie Moore boxed for the vacant championship. Again neither was the legitimate linear champion as they hadn't beaten Rocky. So by Ali's era the linear championship had already become defunct. Saying "nearly every champion" is a complete fudge and undermines the whole idea of the linear championship. 86.158.238.46 (talk) 20:24, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Medal NOT in Ohio river
The page states (quote) "that he threw his Olympic gold medal into the Ohio River after being refused service at a 'whites-only' restaurant, and fighting with a white gang. Whether this is true is still debated, although he was given a replacement medal during the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta, where he lit the torch to start the games". It is no longer a debate, it did not happen. His medal was simply misplaced. Reference and live film of this can be seen 55 seconds into this Youtube clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9OlmPyjsNU —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.217.64.26 (talk) 16:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Columbia Presbyterian reference
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F06E7DC173BF93AA2575AC0A962948260

also link to wikipedia article on Columbia Pres: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NewYork-Presbyterian_Hospital Johndoeemail (talk) 23:23, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

athletes today "are standing on the shoulders of a true giant" - author on Travis Green's show 09/22/2008 I really believe it will be very easy to improve references to this article Johndoeemail (talk) 04:20, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Re: who
regarding the who thingie: "When Clay was 12 years old, he took up boxing under the tutelage of Louisville policeman Joe Martin. " http://www.pbs.org/wnet/aaworld/reference/articles/muhammad_ali.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johndoeemail (talk • contribs) 05:04, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Joined the Nation of Islam on:
"On February 25, 1964...two days later, Clay shocked the boxing establishment again by announcing that he had accepted the teachings of the Nation of Islam" http://www.pbs.org/wnet/aaworld/reference/articles/muhammad_ali.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johndoeemail (talk • contribs) 05:17, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

The greatest prizefight of all time
"In what is regarded by many as the greatest prizefight of all time (the 'Thrilla in Manila'), Ali was declared the victor when Frazier's corner called a halt to the bout after 14 brutal rounds" Johndoeemail (talk) 05:50, 23 September 2008 (UTC) (the wiki article to thrill in manilla has absolutely no references) http://www.pbs.org/wnet/aaworld/reference/articles/muhammad_ali.html Johndoeemail (talk) 05:59, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Professional Boxing Record
I just caught his record down in the tabled format 56wins, 37 knockouts, and 5 losses. That table thing is extremely advanced for me. Since, I am a new user to wikipedia, can his record be placed elsewhere in the article for readability? Johndoeemail (talk) 06:19, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Name usage
Shouldn't we call him "Clay" for the period before he converted to Islam and changed his name? It's weird to talk about him as "Ali" in his early years. john k (talk) 02:13, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's probably more confusing and awkward to switch around in the middle of the article. -- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 03:05, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree. People still talk about "Clay-Liston fights" for instance, not "Ali-Liston" fights.  It is odd and off-putting to say that 'Ali had been seen around Miami and in other cities with the controversial Malcolm X. At the time, The Nation of Islam — of which Malcolm X was a member — was portrayed as a "hate group" by most of the media.'  Why would it be surprising that a man named Muhammad Ali was a Muslim?  We should call him "Clay" until he changes his name, then say how he changed his name, then call him "Ali." john k (talk) 17:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've taken the liberty of changing the article so as to use his birth name prior to his conversion. Please read and see if you find it confusing.  If so, feel free to revert, but I'd be interested to hear other opinions on this. john k (talk) 17:20, 30 September 2008 (UTC)