Talk:Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab/Archive 1

What did Abdul al wahhab actually teach?
Someone said: ''I find this article very curious, if we take the book he wrote "kitab attawheed" how does this book diverge from islamic opinion? the article contains very little about what this man preached.''


 * Some other said: "What this man preached" is more appropriately covered in "Wahhabism", which is linked in the first paragraph.


 * I think that it would be very appropriate to Abd al Wahhab's teachings here, at least in a short section listing what he added to/stressed in the normal sunni teachings. The article wahhabism may treat the subject more extensively, but that article may contain further developments of the movement, that are from after the life time of Wahhab. Said: Rursus ☻ 07:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * But the article of wahhabism doesn't treat the general moslem criticism against this cultic islam at all. Both pages should treat this subject. Said: Rursus ☻ 08:03, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I suppose a section on his beliefs wouldn't hurt, though the Wahhabism article is a separate issue entirely. MezzoMezzo 13:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The major objection that the Muslim mainstream has had with the Wahhabi movement is in the matters of the basic creed. The Muhammad ibn Abdul-Wahhab taught a literalist/anthropomorphic doctrine. For instance, he taught, and the Wahhabis teach today, that Allah is sitting on (or hovering above) the ceiling of Paradise, and that Allah has a literal smiling face, eyes, hands/fingers, at least one tibia, and giant feet. This silly belief is called "tashbih" in Arabic--that is, the blasphemous belief that Allah is similar to the creations in one way or another. Abu Ja`far At-Tahawiyy said in his creed, which is universally accepted amongst the Sunnis: ''

''Allah is supremely clear of boundaries, extremities, sides, organs, devices and appendages. NONE of the six directions [above, below, right, left, in front and behind] contain Allah as is the case with all the creations.

This statement alone stands as proof against the Wahhabi doctrine of claiming Allah has various body parts or is located somewhere above our heads. Until people understand the core distinction between Islam and the Wahhabi sect is in the basic tenets of Belief, there will remain confusion between traditional Islam and this extermist faction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noor House (talk • contribs) 14:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Basically, Wahhabism is the idea of bringing the Islamic faith to how it is "supposed" to be. '''Wahhabis, who preferred to be referred as "Salafis," believe in a strict Islam and in following the Qur'an and Sunnah avidly. Miswak, the hijab (or niqab), and the Islamic keeping of the beard commonly seen in Saudi Arabia and Qatar are results of Wahhabism. Hadith is kept close in Wahhabism, but many hadith are rejected as false or inaccurate.''' As this sect is strict, Wahhab taught that Islamic knowledge should only be taken from out of the Qur'an and from Prophet Muhammad, and if something is not explained in the Qur'an or in Sunnah/Hadith about something, one should refer to one's own judgement or judgements made by pious peers. Wahhabis also take that Shia Islam is a "kafir religion" because Usuli Twelver Shias (who are the majority Shia sect) take that the Twelve Imams were infallible. Because Wahhabism is also very delved into politics and extremism (due to Qutb's and other's teachings), Saudi Arabia usually makes fun of Iran and Shia Ayatollahs, due to the Iranian Revolution of 1979 and the Iranian attacks in Mecca. Ibn Wahhab also referred much of his knowledge from Ibn Taymiyyah (sp?), who wrote scathing remarks against Ali and Fatima Al-Zahra (peace be upon them). His teachings were to bring Islam to a strict, conservative religion, but it recently has turned out to be a sect to undermine the Shia religion. As a result, we have Islamic sectarian violence in Pakistan, India, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Most Sunnis and Shias call it an extremist sect and not true Islam. HaterofIgnorance (talk) 00:17, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Removed the clean-up tag
I removed the clean-up tag. It was put up there a while ago and no one mentioned here why it was put there, so... Whatever. If you have a reason for why it should be put back up, let me know. The article looks fine to me, though. 71.246.209.43 05:55, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Tone
I have been trying to clean up this article and some parts are so bad I have deleated entire paragraphs. Going to try and work on this more as this article needs hours of attention.Please be very bold in deleating things! banana04131

I read through some scholarly journals on Islamic history. It's hard to find info on Wahhab, but based upon one credible journal (from Princeton University), I re-wrote the biography section. I'd like to find more info on what the 10 scholars wrote in response to Wahhab, though, as the journal only mentioned the one Mufti, not the other 9. In any case, I see someone named NubKnacker reverted my changes. Please explain why you did so here. 69.138.24.96 14:43, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Oh, and.. The reason why I largely removed a lot of info on his early life, until 1744, is because, as the journal I'd read said. Wahhab's early life was described by his followers, after he was dead. So, their claim, "He memorized the Qu'ran at the tender age of 10 only," is uncredible. If anyone else has another credible source which disputes this (such as a scholarly text or journal), please cite it.

The source for my changes (which were reverted) was from: [1] Traboulsi, Samer. Die Welt des Islams, Nov2002, Vol. 42 Issue 3, p373, 43p; (AN 9117682) 69.138.24.96 14:59, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I settled the dispute with NubKnacker. The changes were put back through. He just wanted me to mention my edit on the talk page. :) 69.138.24.96 15:29, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

This aritcle looks so much better in just two days! Just wanted to say how nice it is to see this happen. Banana04131

Not NPOV
This article was clearly not from a neutral point-of-view, so I asked that they peer-review it and I generally tried to bring some attention to it. Seeing the number of people editing it, yet STILL seeing how absolutely horrible the article is, I had no doubt that attempting to debate would be a waste of time.

It's poignantly obvious tha, because every time Muhammed, the Prophet, God's messenger was mentioned, the editors wrote "peace be upon him," which is a Muslim custom (Wikipedia is not for Muslims-only). Furthermore, it's poignantly obvious it's not from a neutral point-of-view from how the founder of Wahabbism\Salafi is described:


 * In horribly poor English with errors too numerous to list (For example, "He gained the popularity," "having choiced," "bacame," "Investigation were made," "got himself benefited there," etc)
 * As having "profound scholarship and righteousness"
 * "intelligent enough to memorize the Qur'an by heart at the very tender age of ten"
 * "a man of courage and enthusiasm"
 * His critics have been "ignorant and selfish scholars"
 * As a result of his teachings, "Peace and tranquility prevailed everywhere"

This article is of such low-quality that it should be removed. But Wahhab is famous enough that he deserves an article. 69.138.24.96 19:47, 10 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I've changed the tags to more accurate ones: the "nonsense" one is reserved for Patent nonsense (i.e. meaningless or totally confused text). This is just a matter of viewpoint and rather archaic style. Tearlach 21:22, 11 August 2005 (UTC)


 * As far as I can see the only problem lies with the Full Biography section. I think if we remove the entire section, this article would be a normal, NPOV stub.  It's redundant to have two biographies anyway. Uly 15:58, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Other
The claim that Muhammad b. Abdul Wahhab was referred to as a hadith rejecter is absoloutely unsubstantiated. It is simply ridiculous when one considers that another name the salafis go by is "Ahlul Hadith" or the "People of Hadith". Shaykh Rabee bin Hadee Al-Madhkalee elaborates in the following article: http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sp.cfm?subsecID=SLF01&articleID=SLF010003&pfriend=

Only the adherents of Wahhabi-ism regard the term "Ahlul Hadith" as being applicable to themselves. Ibn Abdul Wahhab is commonly regarded and referred to by the majority of the world's Islamic scholars who do adhere to one of the four Madthabs as a hadith rejecter. Citing a POV (Wahhabi) Sheykh as evidence sufficient to silence criticism of detractors of the ideology is just plain bad business.

Also, it should be made clear that the "movement" is labelled as "Wahhabi" by its detractors and opponents. There is not a single person on earth who calls themselves "wahhabi".

This is not entirely true, particularly in America where new converts are not always so     'clued in' to a groups acceptable/non-acceptable terminology. I personally know people who have at one time or another identified themselves as "Wahhabi". And, even adherents of the ideology who have been properly instructed not to call themselves "Wahhabi," while they reject the usuage, recognize the name as being applied towards them.

The following is a good article for information on salafiyyah (salafism): http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sp.cfm?subsecID=SLF02&articleID=SLF020001&pfriend= Also: http://www.salafipublications.com/sps/sp.cfm?subsecID=SLF01&articleID=SLF010007&pfriend=

Oh, joy, more prosetylizing. Surprise, Surprise.

Moreover, the claim that Ibn Abdul Wahhab was condemened by the "scholars of the four madhabs" is ridiculius, as the four Imaams are regarded very highly in Salafiyyah, and their views are always taken into consideration.

The "claim that Ibn Abdul Wahhab was condemened by the 'scholars of the four madhabs'" is so true and so well documented that suggesting it is ridiculus and therefore should be excluded ought to be a     crime punishable by being pelted to death with peanuts.

The above points should be taken into consideration in order to present a more accurate and factual article.

The above should read: The above points should be taken into consideration in order to present a more POV and censored article.

---

Why do people call him the founder of a sect? Anyone reading his works sees that the only thing he did was to refute grave worship by using Qur'an and hadith-quotes. Nowhere did he base an argument on his own views. He was a refomers, wanting muslims to be more like the Prophet and his followers. I don't see how that is a "wierd sect that started terrorism."
 * That's because he IS the founder of a sect. You don't seem to understand the meaning of the term, please take a look at the Wikipedia article or any English dictionary.  Wahhab and his followers hold doctrinal differences with the established majority of the religion, that makes them a sect by definition.  The term "sect" doesn't say anything about what he actually believes or the validity of his beliefs, nor does it in anyway related to terrorism; those are your own opinion. Uly 19:08, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Indeed they call themselves salafist, not wahabbis, this should be specified. Both terms are equally pejorative from a western POV but not in the muslim world--equitor 23:21, August 13, 2005 (UTC)

Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab Deserves His Own, Separate Article in Wikipedia
As the founder of his own sect, which has "exploded" with oil revenue onto the world political and religious scene, can anyone deny this guy's influence?! He has gotten the entire world's attention (when bombs start going off; people look around). Sure; he might have been "crazy"; maybe a thug, or a murderer, but definitely influential. The guy is either famous, or infamous. But, if I was going to look up the word "wahhabism", don't you think I should be able to look up an article about its founder? Not some crappy, "related" article. Really. (Oct.)


 * Comment not dated. Must be very obsolete by now, since ibn Abd al Wahhab have one article, Wahhabism another, and Salafism yet another. Trying to figure out how "the bombs" relate to Wahhabism – it's easy to paint black, but it's more demanding to understand real connexions, real connexions that might give associations to political and religious structures much, much nearer! However: this discussion should be archieved! There are comments from 2005. Said: Rursus ☻ 07:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Part of it is because there hasn't been much discussion here, I think. You got some comments from 2005, a comment or two in 2006, some now, that's about it. MezzoMezzo 13:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Dates for academic line
An anon editor commented on the article (see and ) that it was not possible for Osama Bin Laden to be a student of al Wahhab because they lived in different time periods. I removed the text since it should be here on the talk page instead.

I assume the article means that Bin Laden follows the teachings of al Wahhab, but wasn't a student of his. Akamad 05:36, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Correct. --Striver 05:43, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Changes
Did a few changes. If anyone doesn't like them, let me know. Banana04131 01:16, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

In Criticisms Section; we read: Tantawi wrote that he received word of ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's teachings through word-of-mouth and letters from local "authorities." The content of Tantawi's arguments also suggest this, as they do not appear to be based on any writings of ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's.

The conclusion is made based on wrong hypothesis; the paragraph does not say anything about writings from Wahhab, the only reference to writings I can see is to the letters from local authorities not Wahhab himself. 88.97.164.254 (talk) 16:08, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Rename
Lets rename this to Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab, to make it more consistence with names like "X ibn Abd-Allah" --Striver 15:11, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Works Section
I want to add a section that lists the books written by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. Are there any objections? ZaydHammoudeh 07:33, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Since I have not heard anyone disagree with the recommendation to include a list of books/treatises by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, I will include one. ZaydHammoudeh 22:38, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Name change
Corrected all instances of "al-Wahhab" to "Ibn Abdul Wahhab". 86.140.45.3 12:35, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Bringing references and citations
I am actually in the process of doing research on this dude's life, so i'm going to see how much I can contribute in the way of sources cited. Anyone else with the time to help would be much appreciated. The only sticking point I noticed in the last version was under the criticism section about an individual named al-Alusi. While I just put citations needed tags by the other unreferenced parts, i've temporarily removed the parts about that guy. I can find no reference to him outside of this Wikipedia article and to my best knowledge, there was no Salafi movement before the advent of individuals like ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and Muhammad Abduh. If anyone else can find some good sources on al-Alusi then please update the article and reference them. MezzoMezzo 02:03, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I added some citations and also material to the subsection on his childhood. It was a substantial addition on my part so I thought i'd look for feedback here to see if my edits were acceptable changes.  Please leave any ideas and suggestions here. MezzoMezzo 20:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Restructuring
I have some suggestions for restructuring the article that I wanted to discuss here. First, I think the Legacy section should be after the Briography section; I think this would make sense because first you read the bio, then you see the legacy part, which is the effect someone has once they're dead. Also, I think the Commentary sub-section should be moved from biography to legacy as I think it would fit better there. I'm looking for some feedback. MezzoMezzo 16:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll go ahead and take care of that now. MezzoMezzo 14:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Recent vandalism
Recently, this article was vandalized by User:Suyuti with the following: First of all, it is extremely bigoted to say that references by non-Muslims are not acceptable for articles on Islam and Muslims; I don't think I even need to go into how many official Wikipedia policies that violates. Second of all, if it is so well known then why is there no evidence of it (but much evidence for the fact that both his father and brother accepted him)? If anyone would like to go into this then I have no problem pointing all the holes in this fabrication, though I am not expecting anyone reasonable to do so as the proof is clear. As for the user who did this, I will be watching this article now and if this edit is done again then I will have to report it. I am also posting this here so it is out in a public forum for any and all of my fellow good and rational editors to see. MezzoMezzo 19:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * "owever this reference is incorrect as it is by a non-Muslim plus due to the fact that both his brother and his father are well-known to have a died having a bad opinion of M Ibn Abdul Wahhab as shown by the scholars of his day and many others."


 * I agree, MezzoMezzo! Wikipedia is the summed-up image of the truth (not necessarily the truth itself) provided by all humankind, moslems and christians and others alike. It should here be noted, that I am positive towards moslems to criticize the West "civilization" – but the system is as follows: all critical standpoints shall be supported by citations from outside sources, the criticism must be reasonable, truthful and logical, otherwise the wikipedia editing process will slowly make the criticism wither away. Said: Rursus ☻ 07:38, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Absolutely. MezzoMezzo 13:29, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I edited some bad grammar and changed one section from 'From death to the present' to 'Alliance with the House of Saud' which is what was actually described in the section. I removed the 'cleanup' most of the article appears in a decent form, although not perfect. Seth J. Frantzman 17:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Good job, the article looks much better. The only issue I take was the assertion that ibn Abdul Wahhab's teachings gave rise to the ideology if bin Laden - as we can see from the actual article on Osama bin Laden, it was actually Sayyid and Muhammad Qutb along with Abdullah Azzam that gave rise to his ideology. MezzoMezzo 20:11, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

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Banu Khalid
Banu Khalid are Maliki and Hanbali Sunnis. This is an indisputable fact. Any source that would say that Banu Khalid are Shi'ites does not know what it's talking about, with all due respect. For your information there is only one Shi'ite bedouin tribe in Saudi Arabia, Banu Yam, and they live almost two thousand miles away from the Banu Khalid and are Ismailis. -- Slacker (talk) 01:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Update: "The Ottomans reached as far as Al-Hasa by 1550 as they sought to curb Portuguese expansion. With Ottoman help, local merchants partially revived the spice trade, especially in pepper, but the Sunnite Banu Khalid expelled Ottoman forces in 1670." From Britannica.

It isn't an indisputable fact, for a number of reasons: With this in mind - and also considering the fact that I had referenced that paragraph earlier with Judge Butami's book, so it already was referenced - the more proper thing to do would to have been to ask me to justify it here first, not to remove it and declare "don't bother looking for a reliable source that will confirm that they're Shi'ites because there aren't any" as you did on my talk page. Come on man, that's the kind of comments I would expect from a twelve year old.
 * 1) The Wikipedia article itself notes that the vast majority of the tribe are Maliki or Hanbali Sunnis - notice that it does not say "all", nor is the claim referenced.
 * 2) Gene Gurney in his Kingdoms of Asia, the Middle East and Africa (Crown Publishers, NY, 1986) notes in the event of Ibn Abdul Wahhab's expulsion from 'Uyainah that this was "at the instigation of the Bani Khalid, who were Shiites..."
 * 3) During his own account of this incident, Ahmad Ibn Hajar Ibn Muhammad al-Butami al-Bin Ali, a Judge in Qatar, also notes that Ibn Ura'ir and his tribe were Ithna Asheri Shi'a. This is in his book Shaikh Muhammad Ibn Abdul-Wahhab: His Salafi Creed, Reformist Movement and Scholar's Praise of Him.
 * 4) A similar account is mentioned in former Saudi Grand Mufti Bin Baaz's book Imam Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab: His Mission and Biography. This is in the third edition which was put out by the Gen. Administration of Publishing and Translations in Riyadh maybe ten years back or so.

I've brought you reliable sources claiming that Ibn Urai'ir and his tribe who encouraged the guy's expulsion were Shi'ite, and that is ample justification for inserting it back into the article. However, if you can find a reliable secondary source disputing that the individual and tribes in question were Shi'a, then the mature thing to do would be to leave both references and mention that there is a difference in opinion on that matter, as there obviously is. MezzoMezzo (talk) 15:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok listen, man. I'm not trying to be immature, here.  God knows I've seen your work on other articles (like Fatimah) and I respect what you do.  However, the fact that Al Uray'ir are Sunnis is indeed indisputable.  99.99999% of the Banu Khalid in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf are Sunnis, in fact.  The reason I said "vast majority" and not "all" in the Banu Khalid article, is (1) I don't like using the word "all" because there will always be individual exceptions in any group of people (2) some Banu Khalid families that ended up in southern Iraq may have converted to Shi'ism (though I've yet to confirm this myself), but that happened decades after Ibn Abd el-Wahhab died.  The fact that you would use that qualification as a loophole to argue that the cheifly clan of tribe were the only members of the tribe that happened to be Shi'as without actually researching this extraordinary claim yourself is disappointing.  Now, I'm sure you're a very knowledgeable person, and in 99 out of 100 disputes I wouldn't be able to argue with you with the certitude that I'm showing here.  But everything you've said on the issue of Bani Khalid shows that you're wading into an issue on which you have zero knowledge, while the topic of Saudi tribes, and Bani Khalid in particular happens to be my forte.  I mean you even speak of Bani Khalid and Al Ura'yir in the past tense as if they were some ancient, extinct people.  Don't you know that the Al Uray'ir clan still exists?  Aren't you aware that the mother of King Abdul Aziz's two eldest sons were from Al 'Uray'ir (including King Saud)?  Would the Imam of the Wahhabis have his firstborn and heir apparent mothered by a Shi'a woman?  It says on your page that you're Muslim, do you even know that most Bani Khalid think they're descendents of Khalid ibn al-Walid?  What kind of Shi'a tribe would try to claim descent from Khalid ibn al-Walid or call itself Bani Khalid?  They might as well be called Bani Yazid!


 * I'm sorry if my message to you on your talk page offended you in any way; that was not my intention. Believe me, if it was a case me trying to insert info in an article, and I was sure of that info, I would go to the library, gather the sources, and use them.  But you're the one who inserted the word "Shi'ite", not me.  I'm just too busy these days to go to the library and look for sources on something so elementary and obvious. I think you need to exercise some good faith here and not simply rely on a technicality ("I have a source that says X, ergo I will insert X in article, even though I don't actually know that it's true aside from reading it in X").  Imagine if you were arguing on Arabic Wikipedia with someone who insisted on saying that George Washington was Jewish, and imagine that that person had "sources" in Arabic by non-specialists that "confirmed" his erroneous information, and that few if any reliable sources actually say that he's not Jewish because it's considered so obvious and unremarkable.  Imagine further that the other guy won't be swayed by Arabic sources because he can't read them.  Picture that scenario and you'll know how I feel.


 * I don't know who this judge Butami is, but he's certainly not a specialist on history or on Arab tribes. "Kingdoms of Asia" won't cut it either as it doesn't seem like it specializes in Saudi history enough to tell a Shia tribe from a Sunni one.  Britannica trumps all three of your sources as it's written by specialists and has been revised over decades, yet you simply ignored it.  Don't you see you're just going to the first source that shares your opinion without actually having investigating its reliability on the subject and without having any sense or knowledge of the subject yourself?  If you want reliable sources on Arab tribes, there are plenty of books and articles by specialists who lived in that region among those tribes and knew what they were talking about.  I could point you to some websites and books in Arabic, but it doesn't look like you can read Arabic.  Go to the library for an hour and look at some reliable sources like Lorimer's Gazetteer of the Persian Gulf, Dickson's "Arab of the Desert" or "Kuwait and its Neighbors", Doughty's "Travels in Arabia Deserta", or a book by St. John Philby.  There's also Alexei Vassiliev's "History of Saudi Arabia".  I warn you though, it won't be easy finding info on any Saudi tribe's religion; they rarely discuss a Saudi tribe's religion unless there's something remarkable about it (i.e. if it's Shi'i), and that's not the case with Bani Khalid.  Anyway if you find any reliable source on Arab tribes that claims the Bani Khalid to be a Shi'ite tribe, I promise you I'll convert to Shi'ism and visit Najaf next Ashura.  I'm that certain.


 * You may decide after reading this to insist on relying on the letter of the law and not bother to actually find out for yourself whether this information is true. Fine.  After finals are over in a month or so, I plan to go to the library and add citations to English and Arabic sources on the Bani Khalid page.  I'll just use those sources here and we'll see how that goes.  In the meantime, please feel free to make my tribe Shi'ite, Mormon, Greek Orthodox, or even Vajrayāna Buddhists if you like.  Take care.  -- Slacker (talk) 18:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What I see in the above is that you feel that:


 * I have zero knowledge on this subject
 * I haven't done my research properly
 * The sources listed are not particularly reliable or informed on the subject
 * I am simply searching for sources that confirm my own personal opinion
 * The issue I take with that is that you have no way of knowing any of the above. You don't know the extent of my knowledge, you don't know how much research i've done, you don't know what my opinion is, and you haven't read the books i've listen.  Just because they don't seem to jive with your view doesn't mean they're inaccurate.  What I have here is several sources that support that point, and a person who claims to have much knowledge on the subject telling me the sources are wrong.  I don't know you or how much you know; what would be more logical for me to follow?


 * Do we have conflicting sources? Yes, however, the notion that Brittanica trumps the others is a subjective matter.  We aren't in the business of rating sources here.  If you would like to wait until after finals (as I am swamped as well) i'll help you look into the issue more.  But the bottom line is, we have conflicting sources; as a free online Encyclopedia, we should make all the information available to readers, especially if there is a dispute so that they may know.  That's the best I can do to help you out, and believe me I would much rather work with you than argue with you.  But I cannot, in good conscience, remove references because I think they're wrong without any compelling proof that those specific sources are bunk.  I'm sorry.  I hope this doesn't damage any future work we may do together here or elsewhere. MezzoMezzo 14:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I will respond in detail after finals. Briefly, I did not ask you to defer to my knowledge of this subject; I simply asked you to go research for yourself (and yes I do have a way of knowing that you haven't: I know that from everything you've said about it. Can you prove me wrong?). A good place for you to start is Lorimer's Gazetteer of the Persian Gulf (look for it at your library). Until then, assuming this is a "conflict of sources", then why should your sources trump mine (Britannica and Lorimer)? The logical thing to do for the time being is to remove the word "Shi'ite" (which YOU introduced) until we can return to the issue and sort out the reliability of the sources in detail, because, since you mention conscience, I can't in good conscience allow you mislead readers about Bani Khalid on the basis of three unreliable sources. -- Slacker (talk) 07:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't need to prove you wrong on my knowledge, as you're the one making the claim; the Burden of proof lies on you with that. However, I will check out that book you've mentioned when I get the chance as learning more is always a good thing.


 * I also never claimed my sources trumped yours; I simply pointed out that yours don't automatically trump mine. It's not one or the other.  We have obvious conflicting sources; as I said before, removing the content you disagree with based on your sources is one sided.  Readers should have access to all the information and if there is a dispute then they should be made aware so they may weigh the evidences and make their own decisions, rather than us making it for them here on this talk page.


 * You have also once again called all three of the sources I used unreliable despite having not read them. You have to understand that I can't take statements like that seriously for obvious reasons. MezzoMezzo (talk) 15:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

How am I making the claim? Are you serious? I'm not trying to insert the word "Sunni", even though I referred you to two eminently reliable sources for it; you're the one who's claiming the Bani Khalid to be Shi'ite! And how is it one sided to remove the word "Shi'ite" which you admit is disputed, yet it is somehow not one-sided to completely ignore my sources and insist on adding the disputed claim? I could have just kept reverting and adding citations to Lorimer and Britannica exactly like you're doing, but I'm trying to be reasonable here and resolve this later in a more detailed manner. Also, if you've actually read Verifiability, you would know that you can't just cite ANY source; you have to actually demonstrate that those sources are reliable on this subject: "Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article and should be appropriate to the claims made: exceptional claims require exceptional sources. ." Whether I've read these 3 sources or not is not relevant, but FYI I don't have to read them to know they're unreliable on Bani Khalid. A source that says the Earth is flat is not reliable on physics, a source that says New York lies on the Pacific Ocean is unreliable on geography, and a source that says that Bani Khalid is a Shi'ite tribe is unreliable on Saudi history. -- Slacker (talk) 17:41, 5 December 2007 (UTC)


 * By the way, if you could quote me exactly where Ibn Baz claims that Bani Khalid are Shi'ites, and specify whether those were his words or the words of an editor, I would consider that a huge favor. -- Slacker (talk) 17:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The initial claim about my knowledge on this subject was made here, which was just words but it still doesn't feel good to read comments like that. As for the dispute over the claim, that doesn't necessitate the "Shi'a" comments removal at all; in fact if there is a dispute then readers should be made aware of it. If you would like to add a sentence for the readers making note of this then I would have no problem with that. I considered adding such a sentence myself but I don't want to preempt your position here.

Also, I have read the official Verifiability policy numerous times as well as the section on reliable sources and find your insinuation that I haven't actually read it unhelpful in improving this article. As for the sentence you've quoted, I haven't breached that at all; the sources I have provided do directly support the information as it is presented in the article and it is appropriate for the claims made.

As for your claim that you don't have to read it to know that it is unreliable, that is, in this case, false. We aren't discussing if the earth is flat or not. If you feel the claim is really that out there then we should both bring more information to the table to get to the bottom of this; your own personal view and your word alone is not a basis for declaring something unreliable, as your word is not a valid source for Saudi history just as my word isn't.

In regard to Bin Baaz's statements, I can work on getting them for you. I had it on hand with me when I initially added the reference but it is not currently with me now, if I go back (I don't want to reveal too much personal information about where I crash at, etc.) in the next few days I can find it for you. MezzoMezzo (talk) 05:21, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok this is probably the last set of questions I'll ask you because this is getting frustrating, and I've decided not to wait for finals to get this over with. Now,are you saying this is all because I said you didn't know anything about this subject?  It's just a matter of pride for you and not a matter of actually getting to the truth?  I already apologized earlier, but hey I'm not going to dance around this; you clearly didn't know anything about Bani Khalid judging by what you said earlier.  There's nothing wrong with not knowing that, but to engage in sophistry over something you clearly have little knowledge of is wrong, and as a Muslim you should know this.  As for the claim being disputed, I meant it was disputed between me and you, not between scholars.  Among people who actually matter, there is no dispute, and I'm not going to pretend there is a dispute just to please you.  I challenge you to find even single source that says there is a dispute over this question.  Show me one specialist scholarly work that says something along the lines of "there is evidence to suggest they were X, while others believe they were Y".  There aren't any.  All sources either say they were Sunnis, or much more often, simply leave it unstated or implied because it's considered obvious.  You're trying to convince us that every scholar in the world who wrote about this simply failed to notice that Bani Khalid were Shi'ites and were waiting for some retired Air Force Colonel who can't even read Arabic and a couple of Wahhabi polemical tracts to uncover this information.  That doesn't constitute a dispute.  Ibn Baz once argued that the Sun orbited the Earth, that didn't mean the issue was disputed.  You claim your three sources support their claim.  Well, how?  Did they visit the Bani Khalid?  Do they cite a source?  (I'm probably wasting my breath asking you this question)


 * Just to clarify, my arguments earlier were an appeal to your good faith by mentioning a couple of source in order to convince you to take out the word temporarily till we could get back to the argument later. Now, however, since I plan to outline the sources and settle the issue, I'm going to ask you one more question and I would appreciate a straight answer: what would it take to convince you that this claim is false?  In other words, what constitutes the "proof" you were asking for earlier?  Thank you. Slacker (talk) 07:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it isn't an issue of pride at all; that is a secondary issue but nevertheless still an issue and flies in the face of Assume good faith. It also makes you look rather unreasonable when you throw out accusations such as me having no knowledge on the subject simply for taking a contrary position to you, as you have no real way of knowing the extent of my knowledge on this subject. The official Civility policy is also relevant here, as it is difficult to take you seriously when much of your position seems to revolve around discrediting me as an editor without any actual proof of the statements. And even in this last comment you've taken my mentioning of this and run to an extreme with it, suggesting it could be a pride issue rather than a legitimate dispute. That's dodging the issue and again, doesn't bode well for your case.

In regard to the claim dispute, you are also blatantly putting words in my mouth. I never claimed any scholar on the subject said there was a dispute; however, we have multiple contrary sources here and those contradictions in and of themselves are a dispute. You are also once again attempting to discredit the opposing point of view rather than discuss the issue at hand by attacking the authors of books you haven't read (re: your comments above about the three men). I am also going to warn you that Wahhabi is a religious slur, so please don't use it in discussion.

As for the nature of these sources, as I mentioned before I don't have access to them at the moment. I apologize if you would prefer to get this finished before finals but that isn't going to be possible.

To convince me that the claim is false, there are a number of things you could theoretically do. Maybe I misread the sources. I don't think I did, but obviously if you go back over them and say "see Mezzo, that's not actually what they said" then I would indeed be mistaken. From what I remember when I had them in front of me and added them to the article, they stated my addition to the article clearly. Barring that, I am not comfortable removing viable sources entirely because there is a dispute. Even if we collect more contrary evidence, that simply makes it a minority opinion, but it is not for us as editors of Wikipedia to decide on the readers' behalf that it's necessarily a wrong opinion. MezzoMezzo (talk) 15:04, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * As Wikipedia editors we can decide that some sources are not reliable on a given subject. In fact, there's an entire noticeboard here devoted to judging whether a given source can be used on a given subject.  What you're advocating is not a minority opinion; it is an error.  By your logic, even typos would be considered minority opinions.  I have a feeling that I can buy you a ticket to Saudi Arabia to meet the Shaikh of Bani Khalid himself and he could tell you that he's not Shi'ite, but that still wouldn't convince you.  Frankly, it no longer matters to me whether or not you have finals, MezzoMezzo.  You wouldn't wait till after finals for me to bring my soruces and instead insisted on keeping the word in there, so why should I wait for you to finish finals?  I'll place the sources, and if you choose to ignore or reject them, I'll ask for a third opinion, and if need be, arbitration. -- Slacker (talk) 15:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. I didn't know "Wahhabi" had become a "slur". I simply used the term as shorthand for scholars who support I.A.Wahhab's movement, and meant no offence.  It is, however, almost offensive how two of Wahhab's followers seem to have automatically assumed that those who opposed them must have been Shi'ites.  Actually, now that I think of it, Ibn Baz can also be disregarded as a non-neutral source on Bani Khalid because they opposed his spiritual forefather (we can't rely on Khomeini for reliable info on Umar, after all, can we?). -- Slacker (talk) 15:23, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

All things aside, per what you've provided on my talk page for the time being Shi'ite should indeed be removed from the article. I am very impressed by the work you did as well. Consider this one resolved. I'll expand on your talk page. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Date and Place of Birth
Who has disputed this info exactly (especially the place of birth)? -- Slacker (talk) 16:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Childhood
The section on childhood has this sentence:
 * Thus, there are only two official histories of ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his religious movement: Ibn Ghannam's Rawdhat al-Afkar wal-Afham (commonly known as Tarikh Najd) and Ibn Bishr's 'Unwan al-Majd fi Tarikh Najd.

I dont know myself, but it seems to me like the second title is more likely to be commonly known as Tarikh Najd since it actually has those words in the title.Bassemkhalifa (talk) 07:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * That is correct, Taareekh Najd is Ibn Bishr's work. MezzoMezzo (talk) 15:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You would expect that to be the case, but in reality it's not. Ibn Ghannam's work is known Tarikh Najd and Ibn Bishr's is known as Unwan al-Majd for short.  Ibn Ghannam's work was published under the title Tarikh Najd al-Musamma Rawdhat al-Afkar, etc. ("The History of Najd called Rawdhat al Afkar ...").  Whether that was his original title or the initial words were added by copyists, I do not know, but that is the reason. -- Slacker (talk) 18:25, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Well i'll be damned. I guess that needs to be changed back then. MezzoMezzo (talk) 05:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

"Never calling for a separate school of thought"
The lead sentence has long said he never called for a separate school of thought (ironic, seeing as one has developed from his wrtings). This was recently changed to saying that "wahhabis claim he never called for a separate school of thought".

I have restored the original version because the proposed new wording suggests there is some doubt (if only wahhabis claim he didn't, it implies other people think he did). If we are going to suggest ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab did personally call for a separate school of though to be developed from his teaching, we would need some reliable sources for that claim.

Any other views? Euryalus (talk) 06:45, 18 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It appears to me to be part of the (decidedly negative) POV that was recently inserted into the article. I see that sort of stuff in articles on Muslim thinkers all the time. MezzoMezzo (talk) 15:01, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

He was a Hanbali, and this he never denied. That a new school of thought has been named after him is the fault of his followers and not of his own design. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.90.64 (talk) 08:33, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Criticism
Wahhabism is a [if not the most] radical interpretation of Islam which only dates back to the 18th century, and this is all the criticisms that is written about it?
 * A more basic question is: should there be any criticism mentioned in the article at all? Looking at the edit history, it seems that over the past half-year all criticism was removed, and all wikilinks to Wahhabism removed from the main body of the article. Esn (talk) 03:56, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Anyway, I added a mention of Wahabbism to the introduction. Esn (talk) 09:19, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

This's something to laught at
Ahahahaha.

Half of article is writen by terrorist's point of viewe and half is by sunni's/shia's.Is wikipedia a debate forum?

117.98.78.3 (talk) 13:51, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Bilby (talk) 23:21, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I got a Biography for Him
This website is a nice basic biography of him, with little bias. http://www.notablebiographies.com/supp/Supplement-A-Bu-and-Obituaries/Ibn-Abd-al-Wahhab-Muhammad.html HaterofIgnorance (talk) 00:26, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved by silent consensus.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 13:55, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab → Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab — The present location is idiosyncratic in its use of "Abd-al-Wahhab". I suggest "Abd al-Wahhab" since that seems quite common. I don't anticipate much discussion/debate given the abstruse nature of the topic, but figured I'd post to WP:RM in case anyone was dead set on Abdul Wahhab, a variant spelling of Muhammad, or having Ibn capitalised. Recognizance (talk) 00:54, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sunni or Kharijite
Regarding the constant addition by User:Raqib nizami of the statement that al-Wahhab was a Kharijite:


 * First of all, the issue is not with the claims made, the issue is that the sources used to support those statements are unreliable. Scribd is a self-publishing site where anyone can publish their own work without editorial review. As such, it violates Wikipedia's policy on reliable sources.


 * Additionally, the authors of Scribd articles are unlikely to be acknowledged experts on the topics about which they write. To take the first source as an example, investigation shows the author to be a civil engineer. No evidence of expertise in the field of history, cultural anthropology and related humanities and certainly no evidence of experience critically examining primary and secondary sources.


 * Considering this article and the Wahhabi and Kharijites articles are apparently contentious topics, we need to be extra careful with sourcing. What that means is nothing about which people may disagree should be added without the support of good sources.

 Claret Ash  12:48, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * First of all before i go deeper to this debate with "ClaretAsh" user i challenge you to prove that Muhammad ibn Abdul wahhab was a Sunni and he is not a khariji.You denied my sources but now give a single source by well known Sunni Shaikh who consider him Sunni and not kharij.im going to give you 1000 reason for why he is a kharii and why he should be considered not to be a Sunni.his books are full of kufri akida and rejecting hujjiat of sahih hadith, izma, qiyas. Raqib nizami (talk) 18:31, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:BURDEN.  Claret Ash  23:52, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I have changed The phrase "influential Sunni Muslim scholar" to "extremist kharji scholar" and added the sentence "who tried to reform a new divisive (firqa)sect "Wahhabism"(this time i used only well known books of historic evidence not scribd doc).because According to thousands books of historic references and thousands Fatwa written by Eminent Muslim Scholars,Shaikhul-Ulama,,Shaikhul-hadith,Shaikhul-Islam,Mujaddids "Muhammad Ibn Abd-al-Wahhab" is a Kafir(disbeliever),Murtad(apostate),kharji(those who went out),Dajjali fitna.Not only that but also he is considered by non Muslim Scholars,writers, historians to be the birth place of all controversial matter(now a days referred to Islam because of him) extremist,terrorist,creed of evil.How can a controversial person like this whose ideology was rejected by All Sunni Muslim scholars(I can give 1000 list of them) is considered to be a "influential Sunni Muslim scholar"!It is like referring Lord Krishna(god of Hindu) as a Founder and Prophet of Islam! Raqib nizami (talk) 20:05, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Please refrain from modifying the relevant text until after this discussion has concluded. Also, you might care to read WP:NEUTRAL and steer clear of terms such as extremist.
 * Incidentally, regarding the google books references you provided on the article, can you please provide page numbers.  Claret Ash  23:52, 20 December 2011 (UTC)


 * This is a selected list of Islamic scholars who have refuted Muhammad bin abd al Wahhabs 'Wahhabism' fitna and warned Muslims from its poison. The list of scholars, along with names of their books and related information, is quoted from the Islamic scholar Muhammad Hisham:


 * 1) Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab al-Najdi, `Allama al-Shaykh Sulayman, elder brother of Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab: al-Sawa'iq al-Ilahiyya fi al-radd 'ala al-Wahhabiyya ["Divine Lightnings in Answering the Wahhabis"]. Ed. Ibrahim Muhammad al-Batawi. Cairo: Dar al-insan, 1987. Offset reprint by Waqf Ikhlas, Istanbul: Hakikat Kitabevi, 1994. Prefaces by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Sulayman al-Kurdi al-Shafi`i and Shaykh Muhammad Hayyan al-Sindi (Muhammad Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab's shaykh) to the effect that Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab is "dall mudill" ("misguided and misguiding").
 * 2) Al-Dahesh ibn `Abd Allah, Dr. (Arab University of Morocco), ed. Munazara `ilmiyya bayna `Ali ibn Muhammad al-Sharif wa al-Imam Ahmad ibn Idris fi al-radd `ala Wahhabiyyat Najd, Tihama, wa `Asir ["Scholarly Debate Between the Sharif and Ahmad ibn Idris Against the Wahhabis of Najd, Tihama, and `Asir"].
 * 3) Ibn `Afaliq al-Hanbali, Muhammad Ibn `Abdul Rahman: Tahakkum al-muqallidin bi man idda`a tajdid al-din [Sarcasm of the muqallids against the false claimants to the Renewal of Religion]. A very comprehensive book refuting the Wahhabi heresy and posting questions which Ibn `Abdul Wahhab and his followers were unable to answer for the most part.
 * 4) Ibn Dawud al-Hanbali, `Afif al-Din `Abd Allah: as-sawa`iq wa al-ru`ud ["Lightnings and thunder"], a very important book in 20 chapters. According to the Mufti of Yemen Shaykh al-`Alawi ibn Ahmad al-Haddad, the mufti of Yemen, "This book has received the approval of the `ulama of Basra, Baghdad, Aleppo, and Ahsa' [Arabian peninsula]. It was summarized by Muhammad ibn Bashir the qadi of Ra's al-Khayma in Oman."
 * 5) Dahlan, al-Sayyid Ahmad ibn Zayni. Mufti of Mecca and Shaykh al-Islam (highest religious authority in the Ottoman jurisdiction) for the Hijaz region: al-Durar al-saniyyah fi al-radd ala al-Wahhabiyyah ["The Pure Pearls in Answering the Wahhabis"] pub. Egypt 1319 & 1347 H; Fitnat al-Wahhabiyyah ["The Wahhabi Fitna"]; Khulasat al-Kalam fi bayan Umara' al-Balad al-Haram ["The Summation Concerning the Leaders of the Sacrosanct Country"], a history of the Wahhabi fitna in Najd and the Hijaz.
 * 6) al-Dajwi, Hamd Allah: al-Basa'ir li Munkiri al-tawassul ka amthal Muhd. Ibn `Abdul Wahhab ["The Evident Proofs Against Those Who Deny the Seeking of Intercession Like Muhammad Ibn `Abdul Wahhab"].
 * 7) Shaykh al-Islam Dawud ibn Sulayman al-Baghdadi al-Hanafi (1815-1881 CE): al-Minha al-Wahbiyya fi radd al-Wahhabiyya ["The Divine Dispensation Concerning the Wahhabi Deviation"]; Ashadd al-Jihad fi Ibtal Da`wa al-Ijtihad ["The Most Violent Jihad in Proving False Those Who Falsely Claim Ijtihad"].
 * 8) Al-Falani al-Maghribi, al-Muhaddith Salih: authored a large volume collating the answers of scholars of the Four Schools to Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab.
 * 9) al-Habibi, Muhammad `Ashiq al-Rahman: `Adhab Allah al-Mujdi li Junun al-Munkir al-Najdi ["Allah's Terrible Punishment for the Mad Rejector From Najd"].
 * 10) *The title suggests this may be an unreliable source. CA
 * 11) Al-Haddad, al-Sayyid al-`Alawi ibn Ahmad ibn Hasan ibn al-Qutb
 * 12) Sayyidi `Abd Allah ibn `Alawi al-Haddad al-Shafi`i: al-Sayf al-batir li `unq al-munkir `ala al-akabir ["The Sharp Sword for the Neck of the Assailant of Great Scholars"].
 * 13) *The title suggests this may be an unreliable source. CA
 * 14) Unpublished manuscript of about 100 folios; Misbah al-anam wa jala' al-zalam fi radd shubah al-bid`i al-najdi al-lati adalla biha al-`awamm ["The Lamp of Mankind and the Illumination of Darkness Concerning the Refutation of the Errors of the Innovator From Najd by Which He Had Misled the Common People"]. Published 1325H
 * 15) *The title suggests this may be an unreliable source, especially considering it is unpublished. CA
 * 16) KabbaniAl-Ahsa'i Al-Misri, Ahmad (1753-1826): Unpublished manuscript of a refutation of the Wahhabi sect. His son Shaykh Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn `Abd al-Latif al-Ahsa'i also wrote a book refuting them.
 * 17) Al-Ahsa'i, Al-Sayyid `Abd al-Rahman: wrote a sixty-seven verse poem which begins with the verse: "Badat fitnatun kal layli qad ghattatil aafaaqa/ wa sha``at fa kadat tublighul gharba wash sharaqa" ("A confusion came about like nightfall covering the skies/ and became widespread almost reaching the whole world")
 * 18) *This is not a reliable source. CA
 * 19) Al-`Amrawi, `Abd al-Hayy, and `Abd al-Hakim Murad (Qarawiyyin University, Morocco): Al-tahdhir min al-ightirar bi ma ja'a fi kitab al-hiwar ["Warning Against Being Fooled By the Contents of the Book (by Ibn Mani`) A Debate With al-Maliki (an attack on Ibn `Alawi al-Maliki by a Wahhabi writer)"] (Fes: Qarawiyyin, 1984).
 * 20) Ata' Allah al-Makki: al-sarim al-hindi fil `unuq al-najdi ["The Indian Scimitar on the Najdi's Neck"].
 * 21) *The title suggests this may be an unreliable source. CA
 * 22) Al-Azhari, `Abd Rabbih ibn Sulayman al-Shafi`i (The author of Sharh Jami' al-Usul li ahadith al-Rasul, a basic book of Usul al-Fiqh: Fayd al-Wahhab fi Bayan Ahl al-Haqq wa man dalla `an al-sawab, 4 vols. ["Allah's Outpouring in Differentiating the True Muslims From Those Who Deviated From the Truth"].
 * 23) Al-`Azzami, `Allama al-shaykh Salama (d. 1379H): Al-Barahin al-sati`at ["The Radiant Proofs..."].
 * 24) Al-Barakat al-Shafi`i al-Ahmadi al-Makki, `Abd al-Wahhab ibn Ahmad: unpublished manuscript of a refutation of the Wahhabi sect.
 * 25) *Unpublished sources are unreliable. CA
 * 26) al-Bulaqi, Mustafa al-Masri wrote a refutation to San`a'i's poem in which the latter had praised Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab. It is in Samnudi's "Sa`adat al-Darayn" and consists in 126 verses beginning thus: "Bi hamdi wali al-hamdi la al-dhammi astabdi/ Wa bil haqqi la bil khalqi lil haqqi astahdi" ("By the glory of the Owner of glory, not baseness, do I overcome; And by Allah, not by creatures, do I seek guidance to Allah")
 * 27) *This source is unreliable. CA
 * 28) Al-Buti, Dr. Muhammad Sa`id Ramadan (University of Damascus): Al-Salafiyyatu marhalatun zamaniyyatun mubarakatun la madhhabun islami ["The Salafiyya is a blessed historical period not an Islamic school of law"] (Damascus: Dar al-fikr, 1988); Al-lamadhhabiyya akhtaru bid`atin tuhaddidu al-shari`a al-islamiyya ["Non-madhhabism is the most dangerous innovation presently menacing Islamic law"] (Damascus: Maktabat al-Farabi, n.d.).
 * 29) Al-Hamami al-Misri, Shaykh Mustafa: Ghawth al-`ibad bi bayan al-rashad ["The Helper of Allah's Servants According to the Affirmation of Guidance"].
 * 30) Al-Hilmi al-Qadiri al-Iskandari, Shaykh Ibrahim: Jalal al-haqq fi kashf ahwal ashrar al-khalq ["The Splendor of Truth in Exposing the Worst of People] (pub. 1355H).
 * 31) *The title suggests this may be an unreliable source. CA
 * 32) Al-Husayni, `Amili, Muhsin (1865-1952). Kashf al-irtiyab fi atba` Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab ["The Dispelling of Doubt Concerning the Followers of Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab"]. [Yemen?]: Maktabat al-Yaman al-Kubra, 198?.
 * 33) Al-Kabbani, Muhammad Hisham, Encyclopedia of Islamic Doctrine, vol. 1-7, As-Sunnah Foundation of America, 1998.
 * 34) Islamic Beliefs and Doctrine According to Ahl as-Sunna - A Repudiation of "Salafi" Innovations, ASFA, 1996.
 * 35) Innovation and True Belief: the Celebration of Mawlid According to the Qur'an and Sunna and the Scholars of Islam, ASFA, 1995.
 * 36) Salafi Movement Unveiled, ASFA, 1997.
 * 37) Ibn `Abd al-Latif al-Shafi`i, `Abd Allah: Tajrid sayf al-jihad `ala mudda`i al-ijtihad ["The drawing of the sword of jihad against the false claimants to ijtihad"].
 * 38) The family of Ibn `Abd al-Razzaq al-Hanbali in Zubara and Bahrayn possess both manuscript and printed refutations by scholars of the Four Schools from Mecca, Madina, al-Ahsa', al-Basra, Baghdad, Aleppo, Yemen and other Islamic regions.
 * 39) *Who possesses a text is irrelevant. You still need to cite the sources in a manner that satisfies verifiability CA
 * 40) Ibn `Abidin al-Hanafi, al-Sayyid Muhammad Amin: Radd al-muhtar `ala al-durr al-mukhtar, Vol. 3, Kitab al-Iman, Bab al-bughat ["Answer to the Perplexed: A Commentary on "The Chosen Pearl,"" Book of Belief, Chapter on Rebels]. Cairo: Dar al-Tiba`a al-Misriyya, 1272 H.
 * 41) Ibn Khalifa `Ulyawi al-Azhari: Hadhihi `aqidatu al-salaf wa al-khalaf fi dhat Allahi ta`ala wa sifatihi wa af`alihi wa al-jawab al-sahih li ma waqa`a fihi al-khilaf min al-furu` bayna al-da`in li al-Salafiyya wa atba` al-madhahib al-arba`a al-islamiyya ["This is the doctrine of the Predecessors and the Descendants concerning the divergences in the branches between those who call to al-Salafiyya and the followers of the Four Islamic Schools of Law"] (Damascus: Matba`at Zayd ibn Thabit, 1398/1977.
 * 42) Kawthari al-Hanafi, Muhammad Zahid. Maqalat al-Kawthari. (Cairo: al-Maktabah al-Azhariyah li al-Turath, 1994).
 * 43) Al-Kawwash al-Tunisi, `Allama Al-Shaykh Salih: his refutation of the Wahhabi sect is contained in Samnudi's volume: "Sa`adat al-darayn fi al-radd `ala al-firqatayn."
 * 44) Khazbek, Shaykh Hasan: Al-maqalat al-wafiyyat fi al-radd `ala al-wahhabiyyah ["Complete Treatise in Refuting the Wahhabis"].
 * 45) Makhluf, Muhammad Hasanayn: Risalat fi hukm al-tawassul bil-anbiya wal-awliya ["Treatise on the Ruling Concerning the Use of Prophets and Saints as Intermediaries"].
 * 46) Al-Maliki al-Husayni, Al-muhaddith Muhammad al-Hasan ibn `Alawi: Mafahimu yajibu an tusahhah ["Notions that should be corrected"] 4th ed. (Dubai: Hashr ibn Muhammad Dalmuk, 1986); Muhammad al-insanu al-kamil ["Muhammad, the Perfect Human Being"] 3rd ed. (Jeddah: Dar al-Shuruq, 1404/1984).
 * 47) *The title suggests this may be an unreliable source. CA
 * 48) Al-Mashrifi al-Maliki al-Jaza'iri: Izhar al-`uquq mimman mana`a al-tawassul bil nabi wa al-wali al-saduq ["The Exposure of the Disobedience of Those Who Forbid Using the Intermediary of the Prophets and the Truthful Saints].
 * 49) *The title suggests this may be an unreliable source. CA
 * 50) Al-Mirghani al-Ta'ifi, `Allama `Abd Allah ibn Ibrahim (d. 1793): Tahrid al-aghbiya' `ala al-Istighatha bil-anbiya' wal-awliya ["The Provocations of the Ignorant Against Seeking the Help of Prophets and Saints"] (Cairo: al-Halabi, 1939).
 * 51) *The title suggests this may be an unreliable source. CA
 * 52) Mu'in al-Haqq al-Dehlawi (d. 1289): Sayf al-Jabbar al-maslul `ala a`da' al-Abrar ["The Sword of the Almighty Drawn Against the Enemies of the Pure Ones"].
 * 53) *The title suggests this may be an unreliable source. CA
 * 54) Al-Muwaysi al-Yamani, `Abd Allah ibn `Isa: Unpublished manuscript of a refutation of the Wahhabi sect.
 * 55) *Unpublished sources are unreliable. CA
 * 56) Al-Nabahani al-Shafi`i, al-qadi al-muhaddith Yusuf ibn Isma`il (1850-1932): Shawahid al-Haqq fi al-istighatha bi sayyid al-Khalq (s) ["The Proofs of Truth in the Seeking of the Intercession of the Prophet"].
 * 57) Al-Qabbani al-Basri al-Shafi`i, Allama Ahmad ibn `Ali: A manuscript treatise in approximately 10 chapters.
 * 58) Al-Qadumi al-Nabulusi al-Hanbali: `AbdAllah: Rihlat ["Journey"].
 * 59) Al-Qazwini, Muhammad Hasan, (d. 1825). Al-Barahin al-jaliyyah fi raf` tashkikat al-Wahhabiyah ["The Plain Demonstrations That Dispel the Aspersions of the Wahhabis"]. Ed. Muhammad Munir al-Husayni al-Milani. 1st ed. Beirut: Mu'assasat al-Wafa', 1987.
 * 60) *The title suggests this may be an unreliable source. CA
 * 61) Al-Qudsi: al-Suyuf al-Siqal fi A`naq man ankara `ala al-awliya ba`d al-intiqal ["The Burnished Swords on the Necks of Those Who Deny the Role of Saints After Their Leaving This World"].
 * 62) *The title suggests this may be an unreliable source. CA
 * 63) Al-Rifa`i, Yusuf al-Sayyid Hashim, President of the World Union of Islamic Propagation and Information: Adillat Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama`at aw al-radd al-muhkam al-mani` `ala munkarat wa shubuhat Ibn Mani` fi tahajjumihi `ala al-sayyid Muhammad `Alawi al-Maliki al-Makki ["The Proofs of the People of the Way of the Prophet and the Muslim Community: or, the Strong and Decisive Refutation of Ibn Mani`'s Aberrations and Aspersions in his Assault on Muhammad `Alawi al-Maliki al-Makki"] (Kuwait: Dar al-siyasa, 1984).
 * 64) Al-Samnudi al-Mansuri, al-`Allama al-Shaykh Ibrahim: Sa`adat al-darayn fi al-radd `ala al-firqatayn al-wahhabiyya wa muqallidat al-zahiriyyah ["Bliss in the Two Abodes: Refutation of the Two Sects, Wahhabis and Zahiri Followers"].
 * 65) *The title suggests this may be an unreliable source. CA
 * 66) Al-Saqqaf al-Shafi`i, Hasan ibn `Ali, Islamic Research Intitute, Amman, Jordan: al-Ighatha bi adillat al-istighatha wa al-radd al-mubin `ala munkiri al-tawassul ["The Mercy of Allah in the Proofs of Seeking Intercession and the Clear Answer to Those who Reject it"]; Ilqam al hajar li al-mutatawil `ala al-Asha`ira min al-Bashar ["The Stoning of All Those Who Attack Ash'aris"]; Qamus shata'im al-Albani wa al-alfaz al-munkara al-lati yatluquha fi haqq ulama al-ummah wa fudalai'ha wa ghayrihim... ["Encyclopedia of al-Albani's Abhorrent Expressions Which He Uses Against the Scholars of the Community, its Eminent Men, and Others..."] Amman : Dar al-Imam al-Nawawi, 1993.
 * 67) Al-Sawi al-Misri: Hashiyat `ala al-jalalayn ["Commentary on the Tafsir of the Two Jalal al-Din"].
 * 68) Sayf al-Din Ahmed ibn Muhammad: Al-Albani Unveiled: An Exposition of His Errors and Other Important Issues, 2nd ed. (London: s.n., 1994).
 * 69) *The title suggests this may be an unreliable source. CA
 * 70) Al-Shatti al-Athari al-Hanbali, al-Sayyid Mustafa ibn Ahmad ibn Hasan, Mufti of Syria: al-Nuqul al-shar'iyyah fi al-radd 'ala al-Wahhabiyya ["The Legal Proofs in Answering the Wahhabis"].
 * 71) Al-Subki, al-hafiz Taqi al-Din (d. 756/1355): Al-durra al-mudiyya fi al-radd `ala Ibn Taymiyya, ed. Muhammad Zahid al-Kawthari ["The Luminous Pearl: A Refutation of Ibn Taymiyya"]; Al-rasa'il al-subkiyya fi al-radd `ala Ibn Taymiyya wa tilmidhihi Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, ed. Kamal al-Hut ["Subki's treatises in Answer to Ibn Taymiyya and his pupil Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya"] (Beirut: `Alam al-Kutub, 1983); Al-sayf al-saqil fi al-radd `ala Ibn Zafil ["The Burnished Sword in Refuting Ibn Zafil (Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya)" Cairo: Matba`at al-Sa`ada, 1937; Shifa' al-siqam fi ziyarat khayr al-anam ["The healing of the sick in visiting the Best of Creation"].
 * 72) Sunbul al-Hanafi al-Ta'ifi, Allama Tahir: Sima al-Intisar lil awliya' al-abrar ["The Mark of Victory Belongs to Allah's Pure Friends"].
 * 73) Al-Tabataba'i al-Basri, al-Sayyid: also wrote a reply to San`a'i's poem which was excerpted in Samnudi's Sa`adat al-Darayn. After reading it, San`a'i reversed his position and said: "I have repented from what I said concerning the Najdi."
 * 74) Al-Tamimi al-Maliki, `Allama Isma`il (d. 1248), Shaykh al-Islam in Tunis: wrote a refutation of a treatise of Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab.
 * 75) Al-Wazzani, al-Shaykh al-Mahdi, Mufti of Fes, Morocco: Wrote a refutation of Muhammad `Abduh's prohibition of tawassul.
 * 76) al-Zahawi al-Baghdadi, Jamil Effendi Sidqi (d. 1355/1936): al-Fajr al-Sadiq fi al-radd 'ala munkiri al-tawassul wa al-khawariq ["The True Dawn in Refuting Those Who Deny the Seeking of Intercession and the Miracles of Saints"] Pub. 1323/1905 in Egypt.
 * 77) Al-Zamzami al-Shafi`i, Muhammad Salih, Imam of the Maqam Ibrahim in Mecca, wrote a book in 20 chapters against them according to al-Sayyid al-Haddad.
 * 78) Ahmad, Qeyamuddin. The Wahhabi movement in India. 2nd rev. ed. New Delhi : Manohar, 1994.
 * Hope these are enough proofs to justify that "Muhammad Ibn Abd-al-Wahhab" is a Kafir(disbeliever),Murtad(apostate),kharji(those who went out),Dajjali fitna.And also he is not any sense a "influential Sunni Muslim scholar"!!! Raqib nizami (talk) 22:00, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * As with the list of books you referred to in the article, please provide full citations with page numbers. Per Verifiability, others need to be able to check the sources and full citations with page numbers will make that tremendously easier.
 * Also, having read throught the above list and adding the occasional comment, I have to ask how confident you are that these sources are reliable and neutral.  Claret Ash  23:52, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I am amazed how easy it was for you question about these sources??!!They are Hujjat and grand mufti from all around the word still you are questioning about their authority?!I am clear now it was a waste of time that i gathered these sources to enlightend you but it seems you will deny and question quran if there was a prophecy that Muhammad bin abd al wahhab was a kafir dajjali fitna!!You were unable to give me a single ref of grand Sunni Mufti shaikh who claim or consider him even Muslim!! Raqib nizami (talk) 04:13, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * If you actually read my words above, you will find that, for the most part, I did not "question about their authority". I simply asked if you were sure these sources satisfied Wikipedia's guidelines. In line with that, I also requested proper referencing so that I and others can read these people's exact words for ourselves, per the principles of verifiability. Otherwise, your list of sources both above and below serve little direct purpose. As for putting the onus on me to provide proof, I'm sorry but it does not work that way. If you had read WP:BURDEN as I suggested, you will find that the onus is always on the editor making the change. I urge you, yet again, to please familiarise yourself with Wikipedia policy, particularly on Primary Sources, on Reliable Sources, on Verifiability and on Citing Sources. Finally, to quote, William Pietri:
 * "Wikipedia's articles are no place for strong views. Or rather, we feel about strong views the way that a natural history museum feels about tigers. We admire them and want our visitors to see how fierce and clever they are, so we stuff them and mount them for close inspection. We put up all sorts of carefully worded signs to get people to appreciate them as much as we do. But however much we adore tigers, a live tiger loose in the museum is seen as an urgent problem."
 * "Consider reading through the Wikipedia policies to get an appreciation for what we're up to. A good place to start is Five pillars. You'll come to see that although these may feel constraining, they will work in your favour over the long haul: when people with opposing views to yours turn up, we will be equally dilligent in making sure that they don't delete inconvenient facts or links to your views."
 *  Claret Ash  07:45, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Just to support ClaretAsh's positions, remember Wikipedia is an encyclopedia which tries to be neutral and factual. You may be right that religious scholars describe him or criticize him in a certain way. In that case identifying and quoting them somewhere in the article may be appropriate. Finding academic scholars who note such criticism event better. But very biased language and putting something in the lead that is not proved in the text, is always problematic. Following the rules can help you get any valid points across without having them repeatedly reverted and having article locked for a while. CarolMooreDC 13:39, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

NPOV
The intro was not neutral by any stretch, and the discussion here about his being Sunni/Khariji has descended into religious debate. Citing a textbook on the Middle East, I have changed the introduction about him to a more neutral pov, with direct reference to what HE (at least claimed) he intended to accomplish. While the majority of Muslim scholars would agree he is Sunni, replacing Sunni or Khariji with "Islamic" solves that problem. It is also important to note that he never wrote nor said anything about intending to create a new sect called Wahhabism, so I've removed that as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Khateeb88 (talk • contribs) 03:41, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Raqib nizami (talk) 04:46, 21 December 2011 (UTC)There is not a single Sunni scholar who think he is Sunni(better study the real meaning of "Sunni")!And adding "Islamic scholer" is not approved by the Islamic scholars because According to thousands books of historic references and thousands Fatwa written by Eminent Muslim Scholars,Shaikhul-Ulama,,Shaikhul-hadith,Shaikhul-Islam,Mujaddids "Muhammad Ibn Abd-al-Wahhab" is a Kafir(disbeliever),Murtad(apostate),kharji(those who went out),Dajjali fitna.Not only that but also he is considered by non Muslim Scholars,writers, historians to be the birth place of all controversial matter(now a days referred to Islam because of him) extremist,terrorist,creed of evil.How can a controversial person like this whose ideology was rejected by All Sunni Muslim scholars(I can give 1000 list of them) is considered to be a "influential Sunni Muslim scholar"!It is like referring Lord Krishna(god of Hindu) as a Founder and Prophet of Islam!Most of all it is not neutral Rather it is better to say he is a "Scholar" from the neutral point.

This is a selected list of Islamic scholars who have refuted Muhammad bin abd al Wahhabs 'Wahhabism'. The list of scholars, along with names of their books and related information, is quoted from the Islamic scholar Muhammad Hisham:

1.Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab al-Najdi, `Allama al-Shaykh Sulayman, elder brother of Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab: al-Sawa'iq al-Ilahiyya fi al-radd 'ala al-Wahhabiyya ["Divine Lightnings in Answering the Wahhabis"]. Ed. Ibrahim Muhammad al-Batawi. Cairo: Dar al-insan, 1987. Offset reprint by Waqf Ikhlas, Istanbul: Hakikat Kitabevi, 1994. Prefaces by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Sulayman al-Kurdi al-Shafi`i and Shaykh Muhammad Hayyan al-Sindi (Muhammad Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab's shaykh) to the effect that Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab is "dall mudill" ("misguided and misguiding").

2.Al-Dahesh ibn `Abd Allah, Dr. (Arab University of Morocco), ed. Munazara `ilmiyya bayna `Ali ibn Muhammad al-Sharif wa al-Imam Ahmad ibn Idris fi al-radd `ala Wahhabiyyat Najd, Tihama, wa `Asir ["Scholarly Debate Between the Sharif and Ahmad ibn Idris Against the Wahhabis of Najd, Tihama, and `Asir"].

3.Ibn `Afaliq al-Hanbali, Muhammad Ibn `Abdul Rahman: Tahakkum al-muqallidin bi man idda`a tajdid al-din [Sarcasm of the muqallids against the false claimants to the Renewal of Religion]. A very comprehensive book refuting the Wahhabi heresy and posting questions which Ibn `Abdul Wahhab and his followers were unable to answer for the most part.

4.Ibn Dawud al-Hanbali, `Afif al-Din `Abd Allah: as-sawa`iq wa al-ru`ud ["Lightnings and thunder"], a very important book in 20 chapters. According to the Mufti of Yemen Shaykh al-`Alawi ibn Ahmad al-Haddad, the mufti of Yemen, "This book has received the approval of the `ulama of Basra, Baghdad, Aleppo, and Ahsa' [Arabian peninsula]. It was summarized by Muhammad ibn Bashir the qadi of Ra's al-Khayma in Oman."

5.Dahlan, al-Sayyid Ahmad ibn Zayni. Mufti of Mecca and Shaykh al-Islam (highest religious authority in the Ottoman jurisdiction) for the Hijaz region: al-Durar al-saniyyah fi al-radd ala al-Wahhabiyyah ["The Pure Pearls in Answering the Wahhabis"] pub. Egypt 1319 & 1347 H; Fitnat al-Wahhabiyyah ["The Wahhabi Fitna"]; Khulasat al-Kalam fi bayan Umara' al-Balad al-Haram ["The Summation Concerning the Leaders of the Sacrosanct Country"], a history of the Wahhabi fitna in Najd and the Hijaz.

6.al-Dajwi, Hamd Allah: al-Basa'ir li Munkiri al-tawassul ka amthal Muhd. Ibn `Abdul Wahhab ["The Evident Proofs Against Those Who Deny the Seeking of Intercession Like Muhammad Ibn `Abdul Wahhab"].

7.Shaykh al-Islam Dawud ibn Sulayman al-Baghdadi al-Hanafi (1815-1881 CE): al-Minha al-Wahbiyya fi radd al-Wahhabiyya ["The Divine Dispensation Concerning the Wahhabi Deviation"]; Ashadd al-Jihad fi Ibtal Da`wa al-Ijtihad ["The Most Violent Jihad in Proving False Those Who Falsely Claim Ijtihad"].

8.Al-Falani al-Maghribi, al-Muhaddith Salih: authored a large volume collating the answers of scholars of the Four Schools to Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab.

9.al-Habibi, Muhammad `Ashiq al-Rahman: `Adhab Allah al-Mujdi li Junun al-Munkir al-Najdi ["Allah's Terrible Punishment for the Mad Rejector From Najd"].

10.Al-Haddad, al-Sayyid al-`Alawi ibn Ahmad ibn Hasan ibn al-Qutb

11.Sayyidi `Abd Allah ibn `Alawi al-Haddad al-Shafi`i: al-Sayf al-batir li `unq al-munkir `ala al-akabir ["The Sharp Sword for the Neck of the Assailant of Great Scholars"].

12.Unpublished manuscript of about 100 folios; Misbah al-anam wa jala' al-zalam fi radd shubah al-bid`i al-najdi al-lati adalla biha al-`awamm ["The Lamp of Mankind and the Illumination of Darkness Concerning the Refutation of the Errors of the Innovator From Najd by Which He Had Misled the Common People"]. Published 1325H

13.KabbaniAl-Ahsa'i Al-Misri, Ahmad (1753-1826): Unpublished manuscript of a refutation of the Wahhabi sect. His son Shaykh Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn `Abd al-Latif al-Ahsa'i also wrote a book refuting them.

14.Al-Ahsa'i, Al-Sayyid `Abd al-Rahman: wrote a sixty-seven verse poem which begins with the verse:

Badat fitnatun kal layli qad ghattatil aafaaqa

wa sha``at fa kadat tublighul gharba wash sharaqa

[A confusion came about like nightfall covering the skies

and became widespread almost reaching the whole world]

15.Al-`Amrawi, `Abd al-Hayy, and `Abd al-Hakim Murad (Qarawiyyin University, Morocco): Al-tahdhir min al-ightirar bi ma ja'a fi kitab al-hiwar ["Warning Against Being Fooled By the Contents of the Book (by Ibn Mani`) A Debate With al-Maliki (an attack on Ibn `Alawi al-Maliki by a Wahhabi writer)"] (Fes: Qarawiyyin, 1984).

16.Ata' Allah al-Makki: al-sarim al-hindi fil `unuq al-najdi ["The Indian Scimitar on the Najdi's Neck"].

17.Al-Azhari, `Abd Rabbih ibn Sulayman al-Shafi`i (The author of Sharh Jami' al-Usul li ahadith al-Rasul, a basic book of Usul al-Fiqh: Fayd al-Wahhab fi Bayan Ahl al-Haqq wa man dalla `an al-sawab, 4 vols. ["Allah's Outpouring in Differentiating the True Muslims From Those Who Deviated From the Truth"].

18.Al-`Azzami, `Allama al-shaykh Salama (d. 1379H): Al-Barahin al-sati`at ["The Radiant Proofs..."].

19.Al-Barakat al-Shafi`i al-Ahmadi al-Makki, `Abd al-Wahhab ibn Ahmad: unpublished manuscript of a refutation of the Wahhabi sect.

20.al-Bulaqi, Mustafa al-Masri wrote a refutation to San`a'i's poem in which the latter had praised Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab. It is in Samnudi's "Sa`adat al-Darayn" and consists in 126 verses beginning thus:

Bi hamdi wali al-hamdi la al-dhammi astabdi

Wa bil haqqi la bil khalqi lil haqqi astahdi

[By the glory of the Owner of glory, not baseness, do I overcome;

And by Allah, not by creatures, do I seek guidance to Allah]

21.Al-Buti, Dr. Muhammad Sa`id Ramadan (University of Damascus): Al-Salafiyyatu marhalatun zamaniyyatun mubarakatun la madhhabun islami ["The Salafiyya is a blessed historical period not an Islamic school of law"] (Damascus: Dar al-fikr, 1988); Al-lamadhhabiyya akhtaru bid`atin tuhaddidu al-shari`a al-islamiyya ["Non-madhhabism is the most dangerous innovation presently menacing Islamic law"] (Damascus: Maktabat al-Farabi, n.d.).

22.Al-Hamami al-Misri, Shaykh Mustafa: Ghawth al-`ibad bi bayan al-rashad ["The Helper of Allah's Servants According to the Affirmation of Guidance"].

23.Al-Hilmi al-Qadiri al-Iskandari, Shaykh Ibrahim: Jalal al-haqq fi kashf ahwal ashrar al-khalq ["The Splendor of Truth in Exposing the Worst of People] (pub. 1355H).

24.Al-Husayni, `Amili, Muhsin (1865-1952). Kashf al-irtiyab fi atba` Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab ["The Dispelling of Doubt Concerning the Followers of Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab"]. [Yemen?]: Maktabat al-Yaman al-Kubra, 198?.

25.Al-Kabbani, Muhammad Hisham, Encyclopedia of Islamic Doctrine, vol. 1-7, As-Sunnah Foundation of America, 1998.

26.Islamic Beliefs and Doctrine According to Ahl as-Sunna - A Repudiation of "Salafi" Innovations, ASFA, 1996.

27.Innovation and True Belief: the Celebration of Mawlid According to the Qur'an and Sunna and the Scholars of Islam, ASFA, 1995.

28.Salafi Movement Unveiled, ASFA, 1997.

29.Ibn `Abd al-Latif al-Shafi`i, `Abd Allah: Tajrid sayf al-jihad `ala mudda`i al-ijtihad ["The drawing of the sword of jihad against the false claimants to ijtihad"].

30.The family of Ibn `Abd al-Razzaq al-Hanbali in Zubara and Bahrayn possess both manuscript and printed refutations by scholars of the Four Schools from Mecca, Madina, al-Ahsa', al-Basra, Baghdad, Aleppo, Yemen and other Islamic regions.

31.Ibn `Abidin al-Hanafi, al-Sayyid Muhammad Amin: Radd al-muhtar `ala al-durr al-mukhtar, Vol. 3, Kitab al-Iman, Bab al-bughat ["Answer to the Perplexed: A Commentary on "The Chosen Pearl,"" Book of Belief, Chapter on Rebels]. Cairo: Dar al-Tiba`a al-Misriyya, 1272 H.

32.Ibn Khalifa `Ulyawi al-Azhari: Hadhihi `aqidatu al-salaf wa al-khalaf fi dhat Allahi ta`ala wa sifatihi wa af`alihi wa al-jawab al-sahih li ma waqa`a fihi al-khilaf min al-furu` bayna al-da`in li al-Salafiyya wa atba` al-madhahib al-arba`a al-islamiyya ["This is the doctrine of the Predecessors and the Descendants concerning the divergences in the branches between those who call to al-Salafiyya and the followers of the Four Islamic Schools of Law"] (Damascus: Matba`at Zayd ibn Thabit, 1398/1977.

33.Kawthari al-Hanafi, Muhammad Zahid. Maqalat al-Kawthari. (Cairo: al-Maktabah al-Azhariyah li al-Turath, 1994).

34.Al-Kawwash al-Tunisi, `Allama Al-Shaykh Salih: his refutation of the Wahhabi sect is contained in Samnudi's volume: "Sa`adat al-darayn fi al-radd `ala al-firqatayn."

35.Khazbek, Shaykh Hasan: Al-maqalat al-wafiyyat fi al-radd `ala al-wahhabiyyah ["Complete Treatise in Refuting the Wahhabis"].

36.Makhluf, Muhammad Hasanayn: Risalat fi hukm al-tawassul bil-anbiya wal-awliya ["Treatise on the Ruling Concerning the Use of Prophets and Saints as Intermediaries"].

37.Al-Maliki al-Husayni, Al-muhaddith Muhammad al-Hasan ibn `Alawi: Mafahimu yajibu an tusahhah ["Notions that should be corrected"] 4th ed. (Dubai: Hashr ibn Muhammad Dalmuk, 1986); Muhammad al-insanu al-kamil ["Muhammad, the Perfect Human Being"] 3rd ed. (Jeddah: Dar al-Shuruq, 1404/1984).

38.Al-Mashrifi al-Maliki al-Jaza'iri: Izhar al-`uquq mimman mana`a al-tawassul bil nabi wa al-wali al-saduq ["The Exposure of the Disobedience of Those Who Forbid Using the Intermediary of the Prophets and the Truthful Saints].

39.Al-Mirghani al-Ta'ifi, `Allama `Abd Allah ibn Ibrahim (d. 1793): Tahrid al-aghbiya' `ala al-Istighatha bil-anbiya' wal-awliya ["The Provocations of the Ignorant Against Seeking the Help of Prophets and Saints"] (Cairo: al-Halabi, 1939).

40.Mu'in al-Haqq al-Dehlawi (d. 1289): Sayf al-Jabbar al-maslul `ala a`da' al-Abrar ["The Sword of the Almighty Drawn Against the Enemies of the Pure Ones"].

41.Al-Muwaysi al-Yamani, `Abd Allah ibn `Isa: Unpublished manuscript of a refutation of the Wahhabi sect.

42.Al-Nabahani al-Shafi`i, al-qadi al-muhaddith Yusuf ibn Isma`il (1850-1932): Shawahid al-Haqq fi al-istighatha bi sayyid al-Khalq (s) ["The Proofs of Truth in the Seeking of the Intercession of the Prophet"].

43.Al-Qabbani al-Basri al-Shafi`i, Allama Ahmad ibn `Ali: A manuscript treatise in approximately 10 chapters.

44.Al-Qadumi al-Nabulusi al-Hanbali: `AbdAllah: Rihlat ["Journey"].

45.Al-Qazwini, Muhammad Hasan, (d. 1825). Al-Barahin al-jaliyyah fi raf` tashkikat al-Wahhabiyah ["The Plain Demonstrations That Dispel the Aspersions of the Wahhabis"]. Ed. Muhammad Munir al-Husayni al-Milani. 1st ed. Beirut: Mu'assasat al-Wafa', 1987.

46.Al-Qudsi: al-Suyuf al-Siqal fi A`naq man ankara `ala al-awliya ba`d al-intiqal ["The Burnished Swords on the Necks of Those Who Deny the Role of Saints After Their Leaving This World"].

47.Al-Rifa`i, Yusuf al-Sayyid Hashim, President of the World Union of Islamic Propagation and Information: Adillat Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama`at aw al-radd al-muhkam al-mani` `ala munkarat wa shubuhat Ibn Mani` fi tahajjumihi `ala al-sayyid Muhammad `Alawi al-Maliki al-Makki ["The Proofs of the People of the Way of the Prophet and the Muslim Community: or, the Strong and Decisive Refutation of Ibn Mani`'s Aberrations and Aspersions in his Assault on Muhammad `Alawi al-Maliki al-Makki"] (Kuwait: Dar al-siyasa, 1984).

48.Al-Samnudi al-Mansuri, al-`Allama al-Shaykh Ibrahim: Sa`adat al-darayn fi al-radd `ala al-firqatayn al-wahhabiyya wa muqallidat al-zahiriyyah ["Bliss in the Two Abodes: Refutation of the Two Sects, Wahhabis and Zahiri Followers"].

49.Al-Saqqaf al-Shafi`i, Hasan ibn `Ali, Islamic Research Intitute, Amman, Jordan: al-Ighatha bi adillat al-istighatha wa al-radd al-mubin `ala munkiri al-tawassul ["The Mercy of Allah in the Proofs of Seeking Intercession and the Clear Answer to Those who Reject it"]; Ilqam al hajar li al-mutatawil `ala al-Asha`ira min al-Bashar ["The Stoning of All Those Who Attack Ash'aris"]; Qamus shata'im al-Albani wa al-alfaz al-munkara al-lati yatluquha fi haqq ulama al-ummah wa fudalai'ha wa ghayrihim... ["Encyclopedia of al-Albani's Abhorrent Expressions Which He Uses Against the Scholars of the Community, its Eminent Men, and Others..."] Amman : Dar al-Imam al-Nawawi, 1993.

50.Al-Sawi al-Misri: Hashiyat `ala al-jalalayn ["Commentary on the Tafsir of the Two Jalal al-Din"].

51.Sayf al-Din Ahmed ibn Muhammad: Al-Albani Unveiled: An Exposition of His Errors and Other Important Issues, 2nd ed. (London: s.n., 1994).

52.Al-Shatti al-Athari al-Hanbali, al-Sayyid Mustafa ibn Ahmad ibn Hasan, Mufti of Syria: al-Nuqul al-shar'iyyah fi al-radd 'ala al-Wahhabiyya ["The Legal Proofs in Answering the Wahhabis"].

53.Al-Subki, al-hafiz Taqi al-Din (d. 756/1355): Al-durra al-mudiyya fi al-radd `ala Ibn Taymiyya, ed. Muhammad Zahid al-Kawthari ["The Luminous Pearl: A Refutation of Ibn Taymiyya"]; Al-rasa'il al-subkiyya fi al-radd `ala Ibn Taymiyya wa tilmidhihi Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, ed. Kamal al-Hut ["Subki's treatises in Answer to Ibn Taymiyya and his pupil Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya"] (Beirut: `Alam al-Kutub, 1983); Al-sayf al-saqil fi al-radd `ala Ibn Zafil ["The Burnished Sword in Refuting Ibn Zafil (Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya)" Cairo: Matba`at al-Sa`ada, 1937; Shifa' al-siqam fi ziyarat khayr al-anam ["The healing of the sick in visiting the Best of Creation"].

54.Sunbul al-Hanafi al-Ta'ifi, Allama Tahir: Sima al-Intisar lil awliya' al-abrar ["The Mark of Victory Belongs to Allah's Pure Friends"].

55.Al-Tabataba'i al-Basri, al-Sayyid: also wrote a reply to San`a'i's poem which was excerpted in Samnudi's Sa`adat al-Darayn. After reading it, San`a'i reversed his position and said: "I have repented from what I said concerning the Najdi."

56.Al-Tamimi al-Maliki, `Allama Isma`il (d. 1248), Shaykh al-Islam in Tunis: wrote a refutation of a treatise of Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab.

57.Al-Wazzani, al-Shaykh al-Mahdi, Mufti of Fes, Morocco: Wrote a refutation of Muhammad `Abduh's prohibition of tawassul.

58.al-Zahawi al-Baghdadi, Jamil Effendi Sidqi (d. 1355/1936): al-Fajr al-Sadiq fi al-radd 'ala munkiri al-tawassul wa al-khawariq ["The True Dawn in Refuting Those Who Deny the Seeking of Intercession and the Miracles of Saints"] Pub. 1323/1905 in Egypt.

59.Al-Zamzami al-Shafi`i, Muhammad Salih, Imam of the Maqam Ibrahim in Mecca, wrote a book in 20 chapters against them according to al-Sayyid al-Haddad.

60.Ahmad, Qeyamuddin. The Wahhabi movement in India. 2nd rev. ed. New Delhi : Manohar, 1994.
 * The sources you name are mere opinions by the scholars, at first glance. This opinion musn't be in the article.Jasper Deng (talk) 22:23, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Introduction and assessment debate
Raqib nizami (talk) 21:07, 27 December 2011 (UTC)From the beginning i am noticing that there are a group of editors whose goal is to praise Muhammad bin abd al wahhab and removing some undeniable fact from NPOV.First of all he is not a hero or role model of islam.in fact 90% of the muslim(wether Sunni or Shiya) population hate him and criticize his works.According to thousands books of historic references and thousands Fatwa written by Eminent Muslim Scholars,Shaikhul-Ulama,,Shaikhul-hadith,Shaikhul-Islam,Mujaddids "Muhammad Ibn Abd-al-Wahhab" is a Kafir(disbeliever),Murtad(apostate),kharji(those who went out),Dajjali fitna.Not only that but also he is considered by non Muslim Scholars,writers, historians to be the birth place of all controversial matter(now a days referred to Islam because of him) extremist,terrorist,creed of evil etc.Such a controversial person need proper introduction which should be full of ref and from NPOV.but most of the editors are trying to ignore the fact and by baseless editing they are trying to portrait him as a Revival/wali/mujaddid of Islam!They are not able to face the ugly truth because they are trained to deny it.I am giving a proper short intro and assessment part which i established by various sources but not it seems its not quiet enough.So please before you are undoing an edit that is not vandalism, explain the reason in the edit summary. please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia policy, particularly on Primary Sources, on Reliable Sources, on Verifiability and on Citing Sources.


 * Khateeb88 (talk) I am fine with the way the intro is now, although I believe it should be noted that he is an Islamic scholar, so the opening should be rephrased to "Arabian Islamic reformer". There are multiple views on the man within the Islamic community, and yes, some do go to the extent of saying he is outside the bounds of Islam (we're not here to debate whether that is accurate or not), but he referred to himself as a Muslim, he's referred to in academic sources as a Muslim, so that's probably the best way to go about it.
 * That seems reasonable. And there is precedent for such compromises. Even within the scope of Islamic articles, we can point to Ahmadiyya as an example of a Muslim sect who aren't accepted as such by other Muslims.  Claret Ash  10:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * And for the record, I haven't been trained to deny anything. I've spent time with Muslim scholars who say he is a great revivalist of the religion, and others who say he caused one of the biggest problems in Islamic history. All I'm trying to do here is help build an unbiased, objective account of the man based on objective sources.--Khateeb88 (talk) 05:43, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Raqib nizami (talk) 09:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC) From the beginning what im trying to have attention was that This person(Muhammad bin abd al wahhab)is a controversial figure and his biography should not have an introduction which can heart or pamper a specific group or sect.this is a clear violation of NPOV and ervandalism.so what i did was by giving good source of ref and making a true statement that he tried to reform a new divisive (firqa)sect "Wahabism".


 * Wahhabism:a critical essay by Dr. Hamid Algar
 * Wahhabis' fitna exposed by Sayyid Saʻīd Akhtar Riz̤vi
 * The Wahhabi mission and Saudi Arabia By David Dean Commins
 * Saudi State, Wahhabi World:The Globalization of Muslim Radicalism by Naveed S. Sheikh
 * Global Salafism: Islam's new religious movement By Roel Meijer
 * Urban Terrorism : Myths And Realities By N. C. Asthana & A.Nirmal
 * Iraq a Complicated State: Iraq's Freedom War By Karim M. S. Al-Zubaidi
 * The khawaarij (i.e. khawarij) and the creed of takfeer: declaring a muslim to be an apostate and its effects upon modern day islamic movements by Craig Anthony Green

Also i extended the assessment by Muslim scholar by giving ref of many well known scholars but now it is removed.Why?there is no explanation!i am accused several times that i am violating the rules of NPOV,vandalizing and edit warring.But reality is that those who accuse me they are trying to hide the reality in the name of law.


 * Just so we're clear, what statements in particular do these references support. Also, if, for example, al-Wahhab was a Kharijite, as you've asserted in the past, can you please point to where exactly these authors state that to be the case. To simply list a bunch of books and say, "These books agree with me" is not enough. The onus is on you to open up the books and show us exactly where each author supports a particular claim. Normally, this wouldn't be such an issue. However, as al-Wahhab is such a controversial figure, we need to be extra careful about what we include and, especially, how we present that which we do include.  Claret Ash  10:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Raqib nizami (talk) 08:48, 29 December 2011 (UTC)For your kind information if you look at the title of the sources you will see that the whole book is written to clear my point.also those 60 ref i had given to prove that he is a Kharijite,Kafir and tried to reform a new Sect(firqa.because of the Wikipedia policy of NPOV i only took step forward to remove the False claim that he is a great reformer Sunni scholar and added that he tried to reform a new sect(firqa)wahhabism.Which i justified by giving compleate books written on this specific point.

For example i gave the ref of Allama al-Shaykh Sulayman ibn Abd al Wahhab, elder brother of Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab:Al-Sawa'iq al-Ilahiyya fi al-radd 'ala al-Wahhabiyya ["Divine Lightnings thunder bolt in Answering the Wahhabis"]. Ed. Ibrahim Muhammad al-Batawi. Cairo: Dar al-insan, 1987. Offset reprint by Waqf Ikhlas, Istanbul: Hakikat Kitabevi, 1994.it was Prefaces by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Sulayman al-Kurdi al-Shafi`i and Shaykh Muhammad Hayyan al-Sindi (Muhammad Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab's shaykh) to the effect that Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab is "dall mudill" ("misguided and misguiding").This is one of the book that was written by far more educated and honored Scholar during the time of Muhammad bin Abd al wahhab to clarify my claim.the whole book is full of proofs enough for my claim that he tried to reform a new sect(firqa)wahhabism.Not only that this book was so authentic that it was supported by 1000 Alim of Macca and Madina and Egypt during that time.So why i need to mention page num that exactly where the author supports my particular claim?if so then i need to give each page no of this book! Same example for the book written by Al-Sayyid Ahmad ibn Zayni. Mufti of Mecca and Shaykh al-Islam (highest religious authority in the Ottoman jurisdiction) for the Hijaz region: al-Durar al-saniyyah fi al-radd ala al-Wahhabiyyah ["The Pure Pearls in Answering the Wahhabis"] pub. Egypt 1319 & 1347 H; Fitnat al-Wahhabiyyah ["The Wahhabi Fitna"]; and Khulasat al-Kalam fi bayan Umara' al-Balad al-Haram ["The Summation Concerning the Leaders of the Sacrosanct Country"], a history of the Wahhabi fitna in Najd and the Hijaz. You can see that the tille it self is indicating that these "bunch of books"(i had given 60 in my previous talks)are written from into till end to clarify my claim.But unfortunately You dont see them as authentic!They were Claiming the Fact and Truth Of this greatest Fitna "Wahhabiya" and protested this evil fitna by rejecting and proving their piont frim Quran and Hadith.

I also don't understand why my claim with so much sources were removed from Assessment part!

Every time you point me NPOV and other law,but let me tell you If it is only for Muhammad ibn ab al Wahhab that you can not criticize or tell truth then why not for "Adolf Hitler"!here in wikipidia there is no debate and edit war to say that Hitler is commonly associated with the rise of fascism and the Holocaust in Europe and responsible for world war!then why So much alert and debate on the fact of Muhammad ibn ab al Wahhab tried to reform a new sect(firqa)wahhabism!?When there are so many Historical proof supporting my point. why we cant criticize Muhammad ibn ab al Wahhab when Wikipedia let criticize Even prophet muhammad

Now, as for the intro section, the tone of Al-Wahhab's page introduction should be similar to that found in the articles of the founders of other minority religious movements, for instance William Miller: The lead section should factually, succinctly, and non-judgmentally describe what the person in question is known for. Opinions specific people have about the individual can have their place in the article, but that place is not in the lead. You mention Adolph Hitler. Take a look at that page. Does it start off by saying "The most evil man of the 20th century, Adolph Hitler..."? No. It says he was a German Chancellor from '33 to '45 and that his policies and programs resulted in the deaths of 11 million people and a world war, because those are the things he did. In short, yes, the lead of Al-Wahhab's article is currently incomplete, needs to more directly mention his role in Wahhabism, and should probably not lead off by calling him a reformer as that's a loaded term. However, your attempt to rewrite the lead to say he's a poisonous heretic is completely unacceptable. --erachima talk 11:17, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * For the sake of centralization, I'll repost my comment from the help desk here.
 * First off, as an editor on a controversial subject, Raqib, it is your responsibility to keep the coolest possible head. Getting into fights over things isn't going to help no matter how right you may be.

Edit request on 29 December 2011 why so much concern about the biography of Muhammad ibn Abd Al Wahhab?
Raqib nizami (talk) 11:10, 29 December 2011 (UTC)From the beginning i am noticing that there are a group of editors whose goal is to praise Muhammad bin abd al wahhab and removing some undeniable fact with historic evidences.First of all he is not a hero or role model of Islam.in fact 90% of the Muslim(whether Sunni or Shiya) population hate him and criticize his works.According to thousands books of historic references and thousands Fatwa written by Eminent Muslim Scholars,Shaikhul-Ulama,,Shaikhul-hadith,Shaikhul-Islam,Mujaddids "Muhammad Ibn Abd-al-Wahhab" is a Kafir(disbeliever),Murtad(apostate),kharji(those who went out),Dajjali fitna.Not only that but also he is considered by non Muslim Scholars,writers, historians to be the birth place of all controversial matter(now a days referred to Islam because of him) extremist,terrorist,creed of evil etc.Such a controversial person need proper introduction which should be full of ref and from NPOV.but most of the editors are trying to ignore the fact and by baseless editing they are trying to portrait him as a Revival/Reformer/hero of Islam!.I am giving a proper short intro and assessment part which i established by various sources but not it seems its not quiet enough.

what i am trying to have attention was that This person(Muhammad bin abd al wahhab)is a controversial figure and his biography should not have an introduction to pamper a specific group or sect.so what i did was by giving good source of ref and making a true statement that he tried to reform a new divisive (firqa)sect "Wahhabism" and i added Assessment by Muslim scholar by giving ref of many well known scholars but now it is removed.Why?there is no explanation!i am accused several times that i am violating the rules of NPOV,vandalizing and edit warring.But reality is that those who accuse me they are trying to hide the reality in the name of law.

For your kind information if you look at the title of the sources i gave you will see that the whole book is written to clear my point.also those 60 ref i had given to prove that he is a Kharijite,Kafir and tried to reform a new Sect(firqa).because of the Wikipedia policy of NPOV i only took step forward to remove the False claim that he is a great reformer Sunni scholar and added that he tried to reform a new sect(firqa)wahhabism.Which i justified by giving complete books written on this specific point.

For example i gave the ref of Allama al-Shaykh Sulayman ibn Abd al Wahhab, elder brother of Muhammad ibn `Abd al-Wahhab:Al-Sawa'iq al-Ilahiyya fi al-radd 'ala al-Wahhabiyya ["Divine Lightnings thunder bolt in Answering the Wahhabis"]. Ed. Ibrahim Muhammad al-Batawi. Cairo: Dar al-insan, 1987. Offset reprint by Waqf Ikhlas, Istanbul: Hakikat Kitabevi, 1994.it was Prefaces by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Sulayman al-Kurdi al-Shafi`i and Shaykh Muhammad Hayyan al-Sindi (Muhammad Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab's shaykh) to the effect that Ibn `Abd al-Wahhab is "dall mudill" ("misguided and misguiding"). This is one of the book that was written by far more educated and honored Scholar during the time of Muhammad bin Abd al wahhab to clarify my claim.the whole book is full of proofs enough for my claim that he tried to reform a new sect(firqa)wahhabism.Not only that this book was so authentic that it was supported by 1000 Alim of Macca and Madina and Egypt during that time. Same example for the book written by Al-Sayyid Ahmad ibn Zayni. Mufti of Mecca and Shaykh al-Islam (highest religious authority in the Ottoman jurisdiction) for the Hijaz region: al-Durar al-saniyyah fi al-radd ala al-Wahhabiyyah ["The Pure Pearls in Answering the Wahhabis"] pub. Egypt 1319 & 1347 H; Fitnat al-Wahhabiyyah ["The Wahhabi Fitna"]; and Khulasat al-Kalam fi bayan Umara' al-Balad al-Haram ["The Summation Concerning the Leaders of the Sacrosanct Country"], a history of the Wahhabi fitna in Najd and the Hijaz. You can see that the tille it self is indicating that these "bunch of books"(i had given 60 in my previous edits)were written to clarify my claim.But unfortunately editors dont see them as authentic!They were Claiming the Fact and Truth Of this greatest Fitna "Wahhabiya" and protested this evil fitna by rejecting and proving their point from Qur'an and Hadith.

I also don't understand why my editing with so much sources were removed from Assessment part without any logic!

Every time editors and admin point me NPOV and other law,but let me tell you If it is only for Muhammad ibn ab al Wahhab that you can not criticize or tell truth then why not for "Adolf Hitler"!here in wikipidia there is no debate and edit war to say that Hitler is commonly associated with the rise of fascism and the Holocaust in Europe and responsible for world war!(Also there are many biography which have separate criticism tittle)then why So much alert and debate on the fact of Muhammad ibn ab al Wahhab tried to reform a new sect(firqa)wahhabism!?When there are so many Historical proof supporting my point. why we cant criticize Muhammad ibn ab al Wahhab when Wikipedia let criticize Even prophet muhammad

Raqib nizami (talk) 11:10, 29 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Please read the Wikipedia policies which you've been repeatedly advised to read. Also, you don't need to repeatedly add the same comments to multiple (or even the same) talk pages.  Claret Ash  12:02, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Raqib nizami (talk) 21:07, 30 December 2011 (UTC)user ClaretAsh i don't know which religion you belong(most probably not muslim) and what is your id but as a True muslim i can do nothing but to reply you by quoting from Holy Quran: And say:Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish.(81) We send down (stage by stage) in the Qur'an that which is a healing and a mercy to those who believe: to the unjust it causes nothing but loss after loss.(82)[17:81,82] So i dont follow any man made law of Wikipedia(which is not applicable)but rather follow the TRUTH.So please stop giving me same advice.

Proposed edits (ClaretAsh)
Per comments by other users, I'd like to propose that the lead be rewritten as follows:

Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab (1703 – 1792) (محمد بن عبد الوهاب) was an Arabian Islamic theologian and founder of the Wahhabi movement whose pact with Muhammad bin Saud helped to establish the first Saudi state and began a dynastic alliance and power-sharing arrangement between their families which continues to the present day.

or, in plain English:

Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab (1703 – 1792) (Arabic:محمد بن عبد الوهاب) was an Arabian Islamic theologian and founder of the Wahhabi movement whose pact with Muhammad bin Saud helped to establish the first Saudi state and began a dynastic alliance and power-sharing arrangement between their families which continues to the present day.

As would become more evident in the article itself, the ref is sourced to the Encyclopaedia Britannica article on Ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab, which it, essentially, paraphrases.  Claret Ash  12:02, 29 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. Khateeb88 (talk) 05:26, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Proposed Edits (Raqib nizami)
Raqib nizami (talk) 20:47, 30 December 2011 (UTC)For the first time i agree with user ClaretAsh proposal but i would like to suggest to add more sources to justify the Wahhabi movement.my proposed edit is as follows:

Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab (1703 – 1792) (محمد بن عبد الوهاب) was an Arabian Islamic theologian and founder of a new divisive (firqa)sect Wahhabism whose pact with Muhammad bin Saud helped to establish the first Saudi state and began a dynastic alliance and power-sharing arrangement between their families which continues to the present day.

or, in plain English:

Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab (1703 – 1792) (Arabic:محمد بن عبد الوهاب) was an Arabian Islamic theologian and founder of a new divisive (firqa)sect "Wahhabism".Whose pact with Muhammad bin Saud helped to establish the first Saudi state and began a dynastic alliance and power-sharing arrangement between their families which continues to the present day.

Edit request on 30 December 2011 "The heading of the biography of Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab"
Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab (1703 – 1792) (محمد بن عبد الوهاب) was an Arabian Islamic theologian and founder of a new divisive (firqa)sect Wahhabism          whose pact with Muhammad bin Saud helped to establish the first Saudi state and began a dynastic alliance and power-sharing arrangement between their families which continues to the present day.

or, in plain English:

Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab (1703 – 1792) (Arabic:محمد بن عبد الوهاب) was an Arabian Islamic theologian and founder of a new divisive (firqa)sect "Wahhabism".Whose pact with Muhammad bin Saud helped to establish the first Saudi state and began a dynastic alliance and power-sharing arrangement between their families which continues to the present day.

Raqib nizami (talk) 21:17, 30 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Not done yet. Though I think you're on the right track, I'd rather see some more input from others who have worked on this article.  Rerequest if more input comes in before the expiration of the protection (January 3rd).
 * While I am here, I will advise you, Raqib nizami, that if you continue to flood this page with stream of consciousness walls of text which amount to rants about bias and opinions related to the subject, you will very quickly find yourself blocked from editing; it has reached the point of being disruptive, and it needs to stop now. Going forward, make your points in a concise manner.  The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 03:41, 31 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I think it is worth pointing out, for the record, that I proposed an edit request two sections before this one in the hope of beginning a discussion and establishing consensus. I didn't use the "edit protected" template, though, as the template itself states that edit requests should be supported by consensus. I mention this because Raqib appears to have simply copied my proposal, changing a few words to his POV.  Claret Ash  05:25, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I did notice, and I happen to agree with your revision; however, before editing through full protection I want to be sure that whatever edit I make has full consensus. Hopefully others will be able to comment on it. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 07:12, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * That's cool and I support your hesitation. It looks like a discussion has started now anyway so hopefully it won't drag on too long.  Claret Ash  07:58, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Peace
Raqib nizami (talk) 13:00, 1 January 2012 (UTC)First of all i am apologizing to all respected users and editors of Wikipedia for my harsh approach towards this article.As new in editing experience i didn't know allot about Wikipedia policy.Though i don't support all laws of editing wiki instructs, but every respected institute has its own policies. no matter how right or wrong it is we have to act according to the policies.But this long debate thought me allot and now i am aware about each step i take.Thanks to all user who criticized me and my work to make me more stronger and confident.Now i am ready to move forward and continue my journey as a seeker of truth.Raqib nizami (talk) 13:00, 1 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you for making the effort to consider all the advice myself and others have given you. Too many editors walk away after receiving less criticism so for you to take on board our advice shows guts. I hope you'll continue to work with us on the Wikipedia Project and be as much a part of the Wikipedia Community as any of the best editors.  Claret Ash  01:10, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Finalising discussion
Having reviewed this article and the recent discussions on this talkpage, I support the introduction originally suggested by  Claret Ash  2 sections above this as being the most concisely informative version with a truly neutral POV. The current version, including the phrase "religious reformer", clearly fails the NPOV policy. However, It is also necessary to avoid a word like "divisive" in the lead because that term is itself controversial and subject to dispute (for those who do believe him to be a reformer it's not divisive at all, it's just "right"). Reviewing the last 3 sections of discussion, CA's version has the strongest support and is the only one that all participants have given at least provisional approval to. Since it represents a major improvement over the current, non-neutral language it seems like a good idea to go ahead and make the change. Doc  Tropics  21:26, 5 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The current version of the introduction is great. Thanks Claret ! Khateeb88 (talk) 03:27, 7 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I tried.  Claret Ash  06:55, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Concur with the above. Excellent work. The Blade of the Northern Lights  ( 話して下さい ) 04:31, 12 January 2012 (UTC)