Talk:Multiracial Americans/Archive 2

Unbalanced infobox
The infobox, as of this posting, is heavily biased (thus failing WP:UNDUE) towards entertainers and politicians. Additionally the Politicians are heavily biased towards elected and nominee Democrats over other parties (4 to 1). Therefore, I will tag this article accordingly. And recommend that the infobox be diversified by individuals who are notable from different fields of notability other than these two, and that the politicians be excluded or be balanced so that the infobox is neutral.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:21, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll see if I can find some republican politicians that are multi/biracial. Never really saw this as a political issue and I figure that maybe picture files from other sections in the article can be moved to the infobox and those in the infobox moved to specific sections. Even though finding republicans of mixed heritage might be a challenge so please be patient.Mcelite (talk) 01:58, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually there are several, the Republican Party is not Caucasian only. For instance see the line up of speakers at the 2012 Republican National Convention.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 17:26, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, John Ensign is pictured and he's a Republican. There's also Tiger Woods who is neither an actor, musicians nor politicians, but an athlete. I agree that some of the images from other sections can be exchanged, such as switching Elizabeth Warren in the infobox, who is part Cherokee and European, with a astronaut John Herrington in the White Native American section. You could also switch out of the infobox entertainer Della Reese with flight pilot Bessie Coleman in the African-American section. Or switch actress Halle Berry from the infobox (who dually identifies as African-American and biracial) with civil rights activist Malcolm X in the African-American section. Singer Mariah Carey in the infobox could be replaced by writer Nella Larson in the Multiracial Identity section. Robert Scott, a politician, in the infox box could switch out with Bryan Clay in the Afro-Asian section. Democratic politician Kamala Harris in the infobox could switch out with model Chanel Iman in the Afro-Asian section. That would further diversify the professions of those featured in the infobox:
 * Barack Obama, politician (D)
 * Bryan Clay, athlete - switched with Robert Scott, politician (D)
 * John Ensign, politician (R)
 * Chanel Iman, model - switched with Kamala Harris, politician (D)
 * John Herrington, astronaut - switched with Elizabeth Warren
 * Malcolm X, civil rights activist - switched with Halle Berry
 * Nella Larson, writer - switched with Mariah Carey
 * Bessie Coleman, pilot - switched with Della Reese
 * Tiger Woods, athlete


 * I could do that, once I have a moment. Bab-a-lot (talk) 12:52, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * This does appear more diverse and politically balanced. Also may I propose that John Ensign be replaced by Steve Austria (politician (R)) or Ward Connerly (educator).--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 17:26, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't get it, you want to replace a republican with a republican for more political balance? Perhaps the balance you seek is based on phenotype and not politics. If that's the case, perhaps Della Reese should be switched with James Brown Bab-a-lot (talk) 17:37, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Additionally, as has been mentioned before on this talk page, we should be careful regarding having the infobox be unbalanced by having an undue weight of multiracial african americans, and also include other groups such as Amerasians. For instance there is Norah Jones or Apolo Ohno just to name a two.


 * I was just suggesting other politicians who could be equal to John Ensign, not that the change from John Ensign is necessary.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 17:43, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't see any objections so far for the changes proposed above, perhaps we should go ahead with the changes to the infobox given that there appears to be consensus?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 03:31, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, someone should go ahead with the changes. Just note that profile summary for section gallery image replacements need to be cited. Bab-a-lot (talk) 15:34, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * FYI - You didn't 'switch them out'. For example, Malcolm X and Bryan Clay are duplicated on the page. Halle Berry is supposed to replace Malcolm X in the African-American section gallery. Robert Scott is supposed to replace Bryan Clay in the Afro-Asian section gallery. So forth and so on... Bab-a-lot (talk) 17:12, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Within in the Body of the article? I was of the understanding that this discussion was about the infobox.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 21:14, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. But I proposed a change that switched the info box images out with those already in the article. Now, there are several images that duplicate because they were not 'switched out' as I had originally proposed. Bab-a-lot (talk) 13:26, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh. Those duplicates should be resolved.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:11, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Look like the issue has been recreated again; again politically unbalanced. :(--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 19:15, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I have gone ahead and tagged the infobox, tag shouldn't be removed until infobox issue is resolved.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 05:05, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

African American definition section
To centralize this discussion, please see the discussion going on at Talk:African American,--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 16:43, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

East Indian?
This is outdated terminology - why is it being used here ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.90.95.165 (talk) 23:19, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

Multirracial World
Americans do not understand that other countries are multiracial. Someone is not multiracial just because their parents are Ecuadorian and German. Ecuador and Germany are multiracial countries as well! Honestly this article is simply outrageous. And so is the US Census. --86.30.135.172 (talk) 20:26, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

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The only bias I see is the people editing this article
I do not understand why you people are one dropping these multiracial people even when this article is meant to be against this. You claim you're not racist yet you call them "Black Multiracials" instead of Navtive American, White, or Asian Multiracials. Why are you one dropping them and just writing them off as Black simply because they are mixed with Black. You are saying that they should stop promoting "Black Multiracials" and promote people of mixed European and Asian ancestry. If that's not racist I don't know what is. These people are a perfect example of the race of the future yet you still want to separate than and talk about what's better and what's worse. I am of mixed African, European, and Native American ancestry but I guess to people like you I'm a black person. However I do understand the views of many of these people. I will be adding info to the African American, Asian, and Native Ameican section.

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Steve Jobs
Look I'm only going to say this once. Multiracial Americans can only exist in the context of the official US Census Bureau. If you aren't going to follow the official rules of race in America then this article might as well be deleted. Steve Jobs is half-Middle Eastern and half-European, which in Census terms translates to 100% white American. Arab and European is NOT mixed race in the United States. Please remove him from the infobox in order to make this article correlate to the established rules of race in America, not the rules you have in your head.96.241.72.141 (talk) 00:36, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

In the next (2020) US Census, you can bet on Middle Eastern will be classified an ethnicity, just like Hispanic or Latino is. The Census discusses groupings like Caribbean-Americans, Oceanian Americans and treating Indian or South Asian groups apart from East Asian groups. Canada has further division into more groups under "visible minorities" and Arabs are considered one of them in the Canadian census. Steve Jobs may be considered all-white/Caucasian in the US, then again the 2020 Census will allow a new ethnicity for Middle-Eastern and North-African Americans. 2605:E000:FDCA:4200:F522:3843:F37F:53A (talk) 16:03, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

culture
"There is evidence that an accounting by genetic ancestry would produce a higher number, but people live according to social and cultural identities, not DNA." People live acording to what the people looks like. Because obama is dark skinned he is considered black no matter that he was raised by his white grandparents. Tom morello is considered white because he looks white. That his father was black is not important to people. So race isn't determinated by DNA or culture is only determinated by the colour of the skin and by the features of the people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.231.101.177 (talk) 22:02, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Image galleries
Per WP:Galleries:
 * [T]he use of a gallery section may be appropriate in some Wikipedia articles if a collection of images can illustrate aspects of a subject that cannot be easily or adequately described by text or individual images. The images in the gallery collectively must have encyclopedic value and add to the reader's understanding of the subject. ...
 * However, Wikipedia is not an image repository. A gallery is not a tool to shoehorn images into an article, and a gallery consisting of an indiscriminate collection of images of the article subject should generally either be improved in accordance with the above paragraph or moved to Wikimedia Commons. ...

Cathry, did the presence of more than 123 indiscriminate images "illustrate aspects of a subject that cannot be easily or adequately described by text or individual images"? Did they "have encyclopedic value and add to the reader's understanding of the subject"? Honestly, I think the answer to both of those questions is no. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 21:13, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I think, they add to the reader's understanding of the subject. If 123 images are too much, some can be deleted, but several images in every section are appropriate in my opinion. Cathry (talk) 21:20, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree that articles should be illustrated, if possible. Please feel free to add back a few pictures to each section, just as I left all the images that weren't in galleries. However, please keep in mind WP:No original research—more than a few of the people in the galleries don't self-identify as multiracial. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 01:31, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Can you name these people? I don't know who of them don't self-identify as multiracial. Cathry (talk) 02:05, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I left five persons in every section. Cathry (talk) 07:42, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I think that's a reasonable compromise. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 14:11, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 17 May 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved..  Anarchyte  ( work  &#124;  talk )   06:40, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Multiracial American → Multiracial Americans – Per Village pump (policy)/Archive 123, the title should be pluralized to reflect accurately the article's explanation about the groups of Americans. George Ho (talk) 06:04, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:NCET/A. RGloucester  — ☎ 22:16, 17 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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(In)elegant variation
The article uses different words to describe the same thing: ancestry, descent, extraction, stock, etc. This is called inelegant variation. We need to choose one word. Fluous (talk) 09:40, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

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Mixed-blood
IP editor, you have removed the term mixed-blood and the link to the corresponding article. The explanation is "Mixed bloods were part of the Métis identity." Can you explain that more clearly? Are you saying they are the same thing? Do you have any published sources, like books, that you can cite that say this?

Wikipedia has two separate articles, one on Métis, and one on mixed-blood. Both seem to indicate that there are differences between the terms, and at least sometimes Métis is used for people of partial French descent, with Mixed Bloods for English, for example as used in this article published by Collections Canada: In that case it would seem to make sense to include both. --IamNotU (talk) 19:01, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Multiracial Americans
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Multiracial Americans's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "tvg": From Stacey Dash:  From Heather Locklear:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 07:08, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Large split and merge discussion at Talk:Miscegenation
The proposal would split the existing 150K character article, creating a new article ‘History of Multiracial People’, and would merge content into Multiracial and Multiracial Americans. Join us here. LaTeeDa (talk) 22:39, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

"Acknowledge" VS "Identify With" or "Express"
Very simple bit: this article often talks of people "acknowledging" or wanting to "acknowledge" multi-racial identities and backgrounds. While this is fine, it is worth being aware that many individuals are fully aware of their multi-racial backgrounds (thereby "acknowledging" them), whilst simultaneously being desirous of identifying with only one "race"; these groups are as cultural as they are scientific, after all. The article, in general, is written with the spirit of a kind of "racial truism", whereby "races" are taken as given categories, constants, that must be acknowledged. This is a tricky method of framing that often may ignore the complexities of such identities in the United States. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:2703:3c00:7c84:ae3:4ff9:7cb1 (talk) 03:11, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Could you point to one or two of the more problematic examples in the article? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 03:15, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

French-minded (not necessarily French) non-racialists

 * https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/nonracial

Some people accept the spirit of the French Constitution and most of them aren't French. They don't want the state to record race. Some (but not all) claim that their philosophical and not biological race is none; being aracialists/nonracialists. They claim that biological sciences and the state are not one and the same (field of human endeavour). They claim that the state can use biological data for forensic, archaeological and other reasons, but not for any reason, especially if the personality of the citizen is infringed. Some (but certainly not all) biological multiracials are philosophical nonracial(ist)s.

Related ethnic groups isn't the utmost hypernym of social categorization
With a biased hypernym you don't include the nonracialists
 * 1) Wikipedia is not the US to present data the same way
 * 2) to believe in the same values (racialism)

Shriver's genetic work
I am swapping sources and some content here, specifically this:

"DNA analysis shows varied results regarding non-European ancestry in self-identified White Americans. A 2002 DNA analysis found that about 30% of self-identified White Americans have recent sub-Saharan African ancestry."

Source:

Actually, the only mentioning of the word recent in this context is to Mark Shriver's personal ancestry:

"To Shriver, the most personally stunning of his findings involved one subject who reported himself to be completely white, yet whose genetic analysis showed that 22 percent of his relatively recent ancestors were African."

A more accurate way to summarize is that 30% of self-reported whites have less than <90% non-European ancestry. The 30% of white Americans from Mark Shriver's study had not only sub-Saharan African but also Asian and Native American ancestry as well.



"The mean African admixture among White Americans is low -- roughly 0,7% African and 99,3 European admixture. To put this in to perspective, this would have been the result if every member of the U.S. White endogamous group alive today had a single ancestor of one hundred percent African genetic admixture seven generations ago (around the year 1850). Of course, African alleles are not distributed evenly. Seventy percent of White Americans (like 5.5 percent of Blacks) have no detectable African genetic admixture at all. Among the thirty percent of Whites with African genetic admixture, the admixture ratio averages to about 2.3 percent, the equivalent of having a single ancestor of one hundred percent African genetic admixture from around the year 1880. Black Americans, on the other hand, have significant European admixture (averaging about 75 percent African and 25 percent European)."



"Thus, while the West African contribution to an African American's ancestry averages about 80%, its range is wide (i.e., ~20-100%) (Shriver, et al. 2003). The genetic composition of self-identified European Americans also varies, with ~30% of self-identified European Americans estimated to have < 90% European ancestry."

And on a final note, let me declare my personal opinion that, as a matter of principle, Steve Sailer shouldn't be cited for anything relating to human ancestry, even if he was working for UPI. I am sure there are multiple guidelines and community consensuses that would discourage that. OUP Oxford is a far superior source. I also would like to say that I'm not casting judgment on whoever cited Sailer, as I'm sure they weren't aware of who he was when they did that. 2603:8080:2C00:1E00:40B7:3AD9:B56A:7731 (talk) 21:00, 1 November 2022 (UTC)