Talk:Multisyllabic rhymes

The "History in Hip-Hop" section... Whoever added in the examples from Kool G Rap and Kool Moe Dee clearly does not know that multi-syllabic rhymes are. Those examples are merely feminine rhymes. Rhyming "pleasure" with "measure" and "treasure" are obvious feminine rhymes, not multis, as they rhyme only the first syllable, whereas the second is the exact same. The situation is the same with the Kool G Rap.

I'm removing the false examples and adding some information about telling the difference.


 * Multi-syllabic rhymes are "rhymes which contain two or more syllables" as cited with references. The Kool Moe Dee and Kool G Rap examples are both rhymes that conform to this. The "-sure" parts of "pleasure" with "measure" and "treasure" rhyme because they are the same sound (the exact same sound in fact). "Pleasure" rhymes with "measure" and "treasure"... and they are all two syllables long, thus they fit the definition.Crateescape101 (talk) 18:47, 9 June 2009 (UTC)
 * To cite a reliable source as well, M Yoshida in "The Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism" uses the following example to describe multisyllabic rhymes - "Touch her not scornfully, / Think of her mournfully".
 * This example also uses exactly the same syllables at the end of the rhyme (fully/fully), with only the first syllable rhyme being different (scorn/mourn). So this academic source refutes your claim that it has to have more than one different sound to count as a multisyllabic rhyme. (source: Yoshida, Minoru, 1952, Word-Music in English Poetry, The Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism, Vol. 11, No. 2, Special Issue on Oriental Art and Aesthetics, Blackwell Publishing on behalf of The American Society for Aesthetics, pp. 151-159.)Crateescape101 (talk) 19:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

So then according to that source, feminine rhyming is the same as multi-syllabic rhyming. Homophones are not considered rhymes, and thus only the first syllables of each "pleasure", "measure" and "treasure" rhyme, so it is a mono-syllabic. Multis (abbreviated) in hip-hop must rhyme more than one sound in each instance, hence the Eminem example in the article (I added that example a year ago). If there is a literary version of multis which allows you to be right, then at least remove the hip-hop examples or make the distinction between the two. Ask any rapper if such rhymes are multis and he'll tell you they're not.


 * Can you give references to back up your statements - "Multis in hip-hop must rhyme more than one sound in each instance" and "Ask any rapper if such rhymes are multis and he'll tell you they're not", because those are not verifiable at the moment (the second statement in particular uses weasel words).
 * And with the point about "If there is a literary version of multis which allows you to be right", can you provide a source that verifies that multisyllabic rhymes in hip-hop differ from multisyllabic rhymes in literature.
 * Also a source that verifies that homophones are not rhymes, and are not considered part of multisyllabic rhymes even when preceded by differing syllables, would be helpful too.
 * Because at the moment, the only source there (the one I provided) indicates that the Kool Moe Dee and Kool G Rap rhymes fall under the definition of multisyllabic rhymes, and I have not yet seen any reliable source that states otherwise.Crateescape101 (talk) 20:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

You can play the "show me your sources!" game, and it's valid considering this is Wikipedia, but the fact remains that this is hip-hop I'm discussing. Rapping techniques tend not to be detailed in literary sources, but go to Flocabulary.com and check the page for Multies (it's even listed as a reference in the Wiki article) and it explains it. The Flocab article is an excerpt from The Rapper's Handbook, which may be considered a valid source. I understand your sentiments about weasel words, but honestly, post your question on websites such as www.rapmusic.com and you'll see.


 * I know it's hip-hop we're discussing. I have the Rapper's Handbook. I have just re-read the section on multies in it (pages 36-49) and nowhere does it specify the things you're stating.


 * I also have not come across what you are claiming in any of the other books on MCing I have, including stic.man's The Art Of Emcee-ing, KRS-One's 'The Science Of Rap' section in his book Ruminations, Kool Moe Dee's There's A God On The Mic, and Adam Krim's Rap Music And The Poetics Of Identity, to name a few.
 * Neither have I seen what you're claiming mentioned in any other hip-hop books such as Check The Technique, Can't Stop Won't Stop, Eminem's Angry Blonde, Alex Ogg's Rap Lyrics, and it's not on any DVD I've come across which focuses on rapping, such as - QD3 Entertainment's The MC: Why We Do It and The Art of 16 Bars, or Freestyle: The Art of Rhyme.


 * If you look at my contributions you'll see I quote from these sources regularly, and I know them well. The vast majority of my contributions are hip-hop related.
 * I have not come across anything that defines multisyllabic rhymes in the way you are suggesting, in hip-hop literature or otherwise.
 * The instances I've seen of multisyllabic rhymes being brought up in hip-hop contexts are just as open as the academic source I cited before, and there is no mention of them differing from the literary multisyllabic rhymes, or that they could not be in the form of the "scornfully/mournfully" example from the citation.
 * Again, if you have any sources which will back up your assertions, please say what they are. Crateescape101 (talk) 02:01, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Funnily enough, rappers rarely make reference to the technique of multi-syllable rhyming. Another major difference is that rappers make a conscious effort to use multi-syllabic rhymes, and many probably don't even know the difference between a masculine and a feminine rhyme. You quote sources from actual rappers, but KRS-One and Kool Moe Dee were never known for their multi-syllabic rhyming, although Eminem certainly was and is. Even if you could technically deem "scornfully" and "mournfully" as multi-syllabic rhymes, they're surely not what Eminem was referring to in the song "Yellow Brick Road". He refers to them as "that Big Daddy Kane shit" that himself and Proof used. All three of these rappers were well-known for rhyming multiple syllables under the definition I've described.

With regard to the The Rapper's Handbook, you say that nowhere does it specify what I'm stating. Indeed, because you're pointing out a small technicality that's taken for granted as false among the rap community (of which I am part). Notice that every example of a multi given in the Handbook is a multi-syllabic rhyme as I state it; none of the examples are feminine rhymes that only rhyme a single syllable. The majority of multi-syllabic rhyming occurs over multiple words, as pioneered by Big L. Basically, every given example of a multi is one under my definition; no examples are given according to yours. So this minute detail you've pointed out is merely your interpretation of the term, and really just a technicality.


 * Your points are still full of weasel words with no proof ("surely not what Eminem was referring to", etc).


 * You also talk about 'your' definition and 'my' definition a lot, and "your interpretation of the term". Let me make it clear - I do not have my own definition, I am using the definition I have cited from reliable sources. I have made no 'interpretation' of the term other than what is clearly shown to be valid from the examples in the cited sources.
 * I'm not entirely sure what your definition is... it seems to be the same as the multisyllabic rhyme definition given everywhere else, except with your own special clause that it can't include rhymes that are two syllables long where one of those syllables has the exact same sound in both of the rhyming words/phrases.


 * You say, "a small technicality that's taken for granted as false among the rap community"
 * Again, I've seen nowhere to suggest that such a technicality exists... and I'm not sure who you're referring to as "the rap community". Notable rappers? People working with notable rappers? Notable hip-hop writers? Or is it non-notable rappers and hip-hop fans on hip-hop message boards coming up with their own multies and definitions of multies? Because the latter is not good enough to count as a reliable source that can be verified.


 * The Rapper's Handbook is self-published, so it doesn't count as a reliable source, and even if it did, examples are exactly that, examples - it does not mean that every other possible combination of words not in the book is invalid.
 * What it boils down to is this - you have not provided any reliable sources that support your claims, and as wikipedia is based on verifiable information from reliable sources, your own definition (including your own technicality that is not specified anywhere that has been brought up) is not valid for an encyclopedia, unless you can back it up with a source.


 * Also, I am not trying to keep valuable information out of wikipedia by being a stickler for sources, if I genuinely thought what you are saying was true I would not even have questioned it. I am a big hip-hop fan and have been listening to developments in rhyme for the past thirty years, as well as rapping myself, and as I have mentioned, I have a vast amount of hip-hop literature and sources. This particular technicality you're talking about seems to be taken from the conventions of internet message board rhyming rather than from anyone notable to hip-hop music or culture. If you can provide a citation from a notable source then we may get somewhere, otherwise there is zero proof that this alternative definition exists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crateescape101 (talk • contribs) 23:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Indeed it seems this discussion cannot progress much further unless I can find a source which specifically disallows feminine rhymes. Let me make this one simple point, though. Have any of the hip-hop examples of multies given in books been merely feminine rhymes? If you search for them on the internet, I doubt you'll find such examples. In this case, would it not be safer to only add examples to the Wikipedia article which are consistent with the examples in your sources?


 * For feminine rhymes, the definition in the Encyclopedia Britannica, 2008 is - "a rhyme involving two syllables (as in motion and ocean or willow and billow). The term feminine rhyme is also sometimes applied to triple rhymes, or rhymes involving three syllables (such as exciting and inviting)." And the same definition is given in The Craft of Lyric Writing (Sheila Davis, Writer's Digest Books, 1985).


 * The definitions of multisyllabic rhyme in two literary sources describe multisyllabic rhyme as rhymes that are more than one syllable long- the example of "scornfully/mournfully" from the source.(Minoru Yoshida, 1952, Word-Music in English Poetry, Blackwell Publishing)(Creative Writing: A Workbook with Readings, Linda Anderson, 2006, Taylor & Francis)
 * The definition in The Rapper's Handbook is also "multies are phrases in which more than one syllable rhymes".


 * So those sources define feminine rhyme as just part of the broader multisyllabic rhyme definition - feminine rhymes are 2-3 syllables long, and multisyllabic rhymes are 2 or more syllables long.


 * For both terms, examples are given where there is only one rhyming syllable that is different ("scornfully/mournfully" for multis in the Minoru Yoshida source, and "willow/billow" from the Encyclopedia Britannica for feminine rhymes), and both terms have examples where there are multiple differing rhyming syllables ("translucence/a nuisance" from the Linda Anderson source for multies, and "motion/ocean" from the Encyclopedia Britannica for feminine rhymes).


 * As to your question - "Have any of the hip-hop examples of multies given in books been merely feminine rhymes?" - in The Rapper's Handbook, in the 'Multies' chapter there is immediately the example saying "Multi rhyme: my cat / hi-hat" on pg. 37.
 * So, the definition of feminine rhyme from Encyclopedia Britannica is "a rhyme involving two syllables" and both "my cat" and "hi-hat" are two syllables long, and the book goes on to give more feminine rhymes as examples of multies - "try me/I.V." from Ludacris' "Number One Spot" on pg. 37, and "nervous/surface" from Eminem's "Lose Yourself" on pg. 47.
 * So yes, examples of feminine rhymes are given as hip-hop examples. Crateescape101 (talk) 22:45, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you fully understood me there. Do any of your hip-hop sources give examples of multies which only rhyme a single syllable, yet are multisyllabic words (e.g. pleasure/measure)? The Rapper's Handbook states that "Multies are phrases in which more than one syllable rhymes" (pg. 37). Only one syllable is rhymed in several of the hip-hop examples in the Wikipedia article ('pleasure/measure/treasure', 'polo/solo', etc). More than a single syllable has to rhyme, so such examples article are therefore false.

One more thing. Let me appeal to your common sense for a moment. If we do not make a clear distinction (no intersections) between multisyllabic rhymes and feminine rhymes, then statements like "Rappers such as Eminem, Kool G Rap, and Big Daddy Kane employ this technique, as well as poets such as Ogden Nash and Gerard Manley Hopkins" are pointless, as every single poet and rapper therefore employs (and has employed) this technique, and so tracking its history is pointless.


 * Your claim is that that the 'sure/sure' part of "pleasure/measure" isn't a rhyme... the Encyclopedia Britannica says "willow/billow" is an example of when 2 syllables rhyme, so they clearly count the same syllable repeating as a rhyme, as the end syllable of willow' and 'billow are the same. Same with the "scornfully/mournfully" example from the other source, it is given as an example of multisyllabic rhyme where more than one syllable rhymes, even though there is only one syllable (scorn/mourn) that is different. So you'd need a source that states that in hip-hop, syllables being repeated exactly (after one that differs) don't count as rhyming elements, because no such technicality is given in any of the sources so far.


 * You say "If we do not make a clear distinction between multisyllabic rhymes and feminine rhymes..." - the only difference given from any sources is that feminine rhyme has to be 2-3 syllables, whereas multisyllabic rhymes can be 2, 3, 4, or higher, hence feminine rhymes clearly fall within the definition of multisyllabic rhymes. So why would we make our own distinction specially for the article when it cannot be found anywhere else.


 * It's not pointless either, as the majority of the rhymes in early hip-hop were monosyllabic. Then people like Kool Moe Dee started using more complex rhymes, as KRS-One points out on the Beef DVD (Peter Spirer, Aslan Producitons, 2003) around the early 80s, where more 2 syllable multies started to be introduced in favor of monosyllabic rhymes.
 * Then Kool G Rap, who is considered to be one of the earliest MCs to use multisyllabic rhymes (as stated by Peter Shapiro, Rough Guide To Hip-Hop, 2005), based on the work of Silver Fox of Fantasy 3 (as Kool G Rap has stated in interviews which are sourced in the article), starting using 2 syllable multies heavily (as shown in the article).
 * By 1990, Kool G Rap was using 3 syllable multies ("killed the man/filter and", "brought me in/scorpion" from 'Kool Is Back' off Wanted: Dead Or Alive, 1990) and even some 4 syllable multies ("marijuana/Sarah Conner", again from 'Kool Is Back', 1990), rhyming across multiple words.
 * Kool G Rap was using 5 syllable multies by 1992 ("pig a day habit/ricochet rabbit" from 'Letters' from Live and Let Die (album), 1992).
 * The history of the technique needs to start with how it developed from the early 2 syllable multies to the 3, 4, 5 and above syllable multies of today, and it needs to show how certain pioneers paved the way for everyone else. Otherwise it is not really a history if we jump right in at '93, '94, '95 when loads of people were using 3 syllable multies by then. Crateescape101 (talk) 13:58, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

This is a fascinating discussion, but I think y'all were talking past each other because you meant different things by "rhyme." (I know this discussion was six years ago, but I still want to comment because I'm trying to learn more about hip-hop rhyming.) (All my examples below, except the first one, are from Hamilton.)

The traditional definition of "rhyme" is (to quote Wikipedia, which matches all the other sources I've seen) that the "final stressed vowel and all following sounds are identical." So "scornfully"/"mournfully" is a perfect rhyme; everything except for the consonant before the final stressed vowel is the same. Similarly, "perfected it"/"corrected it" is a perfect rhyme, because the parts that are different are all before the last stressed vowel sound ("eh" in "ected"). Likewise with "rioting"/"disquieting." The traditional meaning of "feminine rhyme" is just a rhyme of two or more syllables (in other words, the last stressed vowel comes before the final syllable of the word, and everything from that last stressed vowel sound to the end is identical), so all my examples so far are feminine rhymes.

But what Gwame is talking about in this discussion is a pair of words or phrases that don't match the traditional definition of rhyme; instead, they have identical vowel sounds but different consonant sounds. (Gwame is talking about this in terms of syllables separately rhyming or not rhyming, but that's not how the traditional definition of rhyme works.) I imagine that Gwame would say that "government"/"covenant" is a multi; it doesn't rhyme by the traditional standard, because there are consonants after the last stressed vowel that don't match, but it's a kind of sound-repetition that I gather is common in hip-hop. Likewise with "amendments"/"independence." What I'm not clear on is whether something like "democracy"/"Socrates"/"rocks at these"/"mediocrities" counts as a multi or not; in that set, most of the consonants are different, so it's mostly only the vowels that are repeated. By traditional standards, "Socrates"/"mediocrities" is a rhyme (specifically a feminine rhyme) but the others in that set aren't strictly rhymes. I would love to find out what the right term is for this kind of not-quite-rhyme-but-still-nifty-sound-repetition. --Elysdir (talk) 21:45, 27 September 2015 (UTC)