Talk:Mumble rap/Archive 1

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2019 and 6 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Andrescoronel3.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:16, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 November 2017
The reference to the Washington Post article seems wrong to me. Currently, it has a link to the author's Facebook page instead of listing the first and last name of the author.

I think this:

Should be replaced with this:

(I kept screwing up the markup but it should be good now)

AlfonsoAnonymous (talk) 08:51, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done But you can edit the page yourself, have you tried?  &thinsp;&mdash; Ammarpad (talk) 11:11, 8 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I tried on my phone and it didn't work, didn't try on my computer before posting this. Guess I somehow got logged out without noticing.AlfonsoAnonymous (talk) 11:43, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
 * No, I now got it, the request you made here and later edited is your 9th edit and you only became autoconfirmed after your 10th edit. Now you can edit all pages with semi protection. Just keep editing &thinsp;&mdash; Ammarpad (talk) 12:11, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Got it, thanks. AlfonsoAnonymous (talk) 12:20, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Lil Xan orphaned article
Lil Xan has entered the Spotify Top 50 after peaking at #1 on the Bubbling Under charts. I think it's safe to say that he deserves recognition on the level of some of the other artists listed here.

Plus, his page is an orphaned article and needs another article to link to it. I felt that this would naturally be the article that links to it. Nikki Lee 1999 (talk) 02:34, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Sure, why not. As long as you have a source. SuperLuigi22 (talk|contribs) 02:12, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Merge to soundcloud rap
I agree that this page isn't very important, but why would it be a section in soundcloud rap? Maybe some soundcloud rappers are "mumble rappers", andthat mumble rap should be mentioned in soundcloud rap, but it's a completely different thing and mumble rappers exist on other platforms.

Anyway I think that this page should be deleted, not every slang term for a style of music deserves a wikipedia page.Eladabudi (talk) 12:03, 27 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Support - the mumble rap article is only about 6 or 7 sentences in total.--Ilovetopaint (talk) 11:45, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Slang term? Soundcloud rap was the defining style of hip hop in the late 2010's. this would be like if instead of a page on disco, it redirected to funk (Also known as disco) Dont stop get it get it (talk) 14:03, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Deletion of mumble rap section
"Mumble rap" is a slang term for the subgenre of hip hop. "Soundcloud rap" is rap made o the platform. I agree that the mumble rap page shouldn't exist, but soundcloud rap and mumble rap are not the same thing. For instance Neither Future or Cheif Keef, two of the rappers associated with the creation of the so-called "mumble rap", had their beginnings on soundcloud. If the mumble rap article should be deleted, then delete it. Soundcloud rap and Mumble rap are NOT the same thing, even if you found a random reporter saying "soundcloud rap (or mumble rap). There are many other sources that might not directly contradict the two being the same, but if you think alittle you'll realoze that the two are completely different terms.Eladabudi (talk) 16:44, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
 * No, SoundCloud rap originated on the SoundCloud platform. The term itself is a scene and a genre. You don't have to be on the SoundCloud platform to play the music, as it has certain musical qualities. SuperLuigi22 (talk|contribs) 05:36, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Mumble rap did not originate from SoundCloud. They are still two different thingsEladabudi (talk) 05:42, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I never said mumble rap started on SoundCloud, I said the name SoundCloud rap came from many of the artists being on the platform. It has a signature sound that mumble rap also shares. I'm not saying they are exactly the same thing, but it's similar to the situation of easycore (a section on the pop punk page), where it's not the same genre but the subgenre does not have enough info to form it's own page. SuperLuigi22 (talk|contribs) 21:54, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * http://www.complex.com/music/2017/08/soundcloud-rappers-you-should-know/ says Mumble rap is different from SoundCloud rap. http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2017/06/what_is_mumble_rap_25_essentia.html does not even mention Soundcloud. I don't know what SoundCloud rap or Mumble rap is but they are not the same thing. The difference between the two should be explained on this page though as "Mumble rap" redirects here. can you add that to the article? (if not: can you explain to me what the difference is?) Alexis Jazz (talk) 08:32, 30 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Support - At any rate, the sources provided don't equate mumble rap and Soundcloud rap whatsoever. The claim either needs citation or needs to be removed. 173.178.202.55 (talk) 00:56, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

List of artists
Since https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=SoundCloud_rap&diff=842577439&oldid=842546115 this is just turning right back into the mess it wass.

I will try to maintain a list here that includes artists for which verification failed. Others can edit this as well.

With source

 * 6ix9ine Yes check.svg
 * Lil Peep Yes check.svg
 * Lil Pump Yes check.svg
 * Lil Tracy Yes check.svg
 * Lil Xan Yes check.svg
 * Lil Yachty ?? (User:Castop will !)
 * Playboi Carti ??
 * Eminem Yes check.svg EMINEM? Y'all are really reaching. This is basically vandalism. Anfwepgnrwfinre (talk) 21:10, 17 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Russ ??
 * Smokepurpp Yes check.svg
 * Trippie Redd Yes check.svg
 * Ugly God ??
 * XXXTentacion Yes check.svg

No source

 * 21 Savage X mark.svg
 * Future (rapper) X mark.svg
 * Juice WRLD X mark.svg
 * Kodak Black X mark.svg
 * Lil Skies X mark.svg
 * Lil Uzi Vert X mark.svg
 * Migos X mark.svg
 * Rich the Kid X mark.svg
 * Draft:Ski Mask The Slump God X mark.svg (not notable. may or may not be in SoundCloud rap genre)
 * Tay-K X mark.svg
 * Travis Scott X mark.svg
 * Wifisfuneral X mark.svg
 * YBN Nahmir X mark.svg
 * Young Thug X mark.svg

If a reliable source exists, add it to their article. Also, I am not convinced https://www.complex.com/music/2017/08/soundcloud-rappers-you-should-know/ can be used as a source to claim any artist is in the SoundCloud rap genre. Alexis Jazz (talk) 15:15, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Comments

 * I see you've added Lil Xan using https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/apr/05/lil-xan-total-xanarchy-review-moronic-rap-to-make-you-feel-old as a source. But that source says:
 * "every generation has musicians who have adults harrumphing under baffled brows as teenagers gleefully proclaim their genius, and the current example is mumble rap. Also dubbed emo rap or SoundCloud rap, this is an offshoot of mainstream hip-hop characterised by quietly mournful or noisily distorted production"
 * They don't distinguish between Emo rap, Mumble rap (which has been discussed above and is probably yet another subgenre) and SoundCloud rap. So this doesn't work as a source.
 * You also added Lil Peep, Lil Yachty, Playboi Carti, Russ and Ugly God using https://www.wmagazine.com/story/soundcloud-rappers-lil-uzi-vert-lil-yachty as a source. I've seen that page before, but that too makes no clear statement. "They Came From SoundCloud" only refers to the platform they came from (not the genre). This quote:
 * "Lil Uzi Vert, Lil Yachty, and the rest of their millennial rap wave (which includes Playboi Carti) have been dismissed as "SoundCloud rappers," an attempt by the hip-hop establishment to pigeonhole them as frivolous or, worse, not "real" hip-hop."
 * Does not look like a clear reference to the genre either. It could be, but it could just as well (actually this seems more likely to me) mean "trash rappers". So just another reference to the platform, not really the genre. About Lil Peep it says:
 * "Instead, the singer moved out to Los Angeles, discovered the world of SoundCloud rap, and used that as his model of musical inspiration."
 * Assuming that does refer to the genre (which I'm willing to accept) this seems more like a source for Lil Peep not being in the SoundCloud rap genre because he only used it as inspiration but didn't join it. Alexis Jazz (talk) 02:39, 16 June 2018 (UTC)


 * thank you for your message and concerns, but I am afraid I am not following. Soundcloud rap here in this page refers to the style of music that is used by rap artists that often use soundcloud as their platform. Obviously not all rappers who use soundcloud should be on the list. That being said it is clear all the artists mentioned in the second source have some similarities in their music and style. I agree that the two sources are vague, but in most articles I see about this subject the term "soundcloud rap" appears loosely defined, even in this Wikipeida article itself! here is the second sentence: "It is characterized for its simple beats, emo moods, and lyrics that range from the braggadocious and nihilistic to sex and drugs." Whats more so confusing is that Mumble rap redirects to this article when, from my impression, the two terms are related but distinct. As for Lil Xan there are a couple more articles that refer to him as a "soundcloud rapper" 1 2 3. All of these articles only really make passing reference to this, and where that is enough to confirm Lil Xan as a soundcloud rapper should be open to discussion. As for my own opinion that definition of what soundcloud actually is needs to be specified in the article, as for now it is just too broad a definition. Thank you for your work on this subject though Inter&#38;anthro (talk) 04:06, 16 June 2018 (UTC)


 * you say it is clear that "all the artists mentioned in the second source have some similarities in their music and style". For Wikipedia, this isn't sufficient as a source. See WP:BLUESKY, WP:NOTBLUE and WP:The Pope is Catholic. I consider myself an outsider: I have not listened to the work of any of the artists mentioned here. I do not know what SoundCloud rap, mumble rap or Emo rap actually sounds like. Those "passing references" are better for me: they provide a source for artists actually being active in this genre.
 * The goal, by the way, is not really to put all the citations in this article. Ideally the list of genres on the article page of the artist includes "SoundCloud rap" and the source is right next to that.
 * You are absolutely right SoundCloud rap is poorly defined. I have asked previously on this page to describe the difference between mumble rap and SoundCloud rap but I think that request was left unanswered. I will add some of your links as sources. Alexis Jazz (talk) 05:06, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
 * do you have direct sources for Lil Yachty, Playboi Carti, Russ and Ugly God? Passing references are okay for me. I just want to confirm they are actually active in the genre. As you can see I added "SoundCloud rap" as a genre to the article pages of the other artists, including source. Someone else may want to question whether a passing reference is enough, but I won't. Beggars can't be choosers. Alexis Jazz (talk) 07:50, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

deletionist haters, please bring back the artist list, check out millions of listens on youtube under this genre, articles vice and various rap sites and online record stores using this genre label. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.180.71.34 (talk) 18:26, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Makes me wonder why there is no article for suicideboys on here. They are huge now and there is an article on the German wikipedia about them. Cganuelas (talk) 11:07, 3 August 2018 (UTC)'

-this is cold, we don't want mumble rap like we didn't want corporate rap. Let's face it, corporate rap is lyrical rap, and mumble rap is beat rap, like almost techno rap but with a beat.

Lil Peep should be added to list of artists
I have s source confirming that he is regarded a Soundcloud rapper who formed a big part of the culture, however I cannot edit his arcticle Guccigabe2 (talk) 00:43, 6 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Can you give us the link? I see references to Lil Peep quite often, but haven't seen any source directly saying he was in the SoundCloud rap genre. Alexis Jazz (talk) 00:08, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 June 2018
I believe that "mumble rap" should no longer be redirected to this page, as the page literally states in the first paragraph "[SoundCloud rap] is not the same thing as mumble rap." 174.110.10.41 (talk) 06:59, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: This is the wrong place to make this request. If you wish to pursue this request please see redirects for discussion. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 13:38, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2018
Why is this the only page on wikipedia that has little crosses next to the names of the deceased? are their deaths somehow more significant than the notable people on any other page? My request is that these deaths are treated the same as every other notable person who has passed on wikipedia. 2A00:23C4:9706:6F00:A003:57E2:2DBD:8791 (talk) 22:32, 29 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually in some NASCAR pages, this cross is also there .  Kpgj  hpjm  02:15, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
 * Like this page Kpgj  hpjm  02:21, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 11 July 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 22:01, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

SoundCloud rap → Mumble rap – Mumble rap is the most popular term for this subgenre as evidenced by Google search (over a million) and SoundCloud rap turns up just 250,000. It should be Mumble rap, also known as SoundCloud rap in the lede not reverse. The editor  whose username is Z0 12:16, 11 July 2018 (UTC) --Relisting.  Anarchyte  ( work  &#124;  talk )  07:57, 22 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Are these the same thing; should there be separate articles? &mdash;innotata 01:32, 12 July 2018 (UTC)
 * It is the same thing. Soundcloud rap, bubblegum rap, trap rap, mumble rap are all the same. It is used to refer to the trap movement that began in the 2010s. The editor  whose username is Z0  10:22, 17 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose Firstly, your first point is untrue, googling "Soundcloud rap" has 76,300,000 results, while "Mumble rap" only gets 2,400,000. Also, mumble rap is primarily used as a derogatory term and not all Soundcloud rappers are mumble rappers, it's just an attribute of it. Issan Sumisu (talk) 09:58, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Your search query is inaccurate because searching Soundcloud rap also brings up results about the music website. The search we want is about the genre not about rap in general and not about the website, thus SoundCloud rap in quotation marks helps Google make the search about just the genre. That's why you get a different result. Please cite a source to show that mumble rap is a derogatory term because I find that to be absolutely absurd. Ridiculous vote if you ask me. The editor  whose username is Z0 10:28, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I did search it in quotation marks, it came up with 76,300,000 results, and here's two sources stating it's a derogatory term: http://crowsneststpete.com/2017/11/06/mumble-rap-is-abstract-expressionism-for-hip-hop/https://www.hotnewhiphop.com/lil-yachtys-teenage-emotions-review-news.33146.html. Issan Sumisu (talk) 10:35, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
 * When searching in quotes, I get 261,000 results for "SoundCloud rap" and 477,000 for "mumble rap". For Google News, 4,100 results for "SoundCloud rap" and 6,970 results for "mumble rap". Nothing near 76 million for these. Dekimasu よ! 01:50, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Well I have no clue, because it's still saying 76,300,000 for me. Issan Sumisu (talk) 09:12, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Support Mumble rap is the more popular name, as well as not being based on a brand name.142.68.61.151 (talk) 17:05, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose WP:COMMONNAME, and the fact that 'SoundCloud rap' turns out more Google results than 'Mumble Rap'. The Duke of Nonsense What is necessary for thee?.  11:40, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Support. Primarily because, as above, Mumble rap actually receives more Google results than SoundCloud rap. It should be possible for the closer to verify that opposition based upon assertions that the reverse is true is incorrect. See also Google Trends. I also get twice as many results for "mumble rap" on Google News. Dekimasu よ! 18:35, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment The citations cited to say that Soundcloud rap and mumble rap are the same thing don't even say that. https://www.complex.com/music/2017/08/soundcloud-rappers-you-should-know/ says that Soundcloud rap has become a term used to shame the style, just as mumble had been previously, and https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2017/06/what_is_mumble_rap_25_essentia.html doesn't even mention Soundcloud rap once, if you're gonna go through with this change, you would need to provide a source saying they're actually the same thing first. Issan Sumisu (talk) 16:32, 31 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Support. "Mumble rap" is the neutral article title (WP:NPOVTITLE), since this genre of music is distributed on multiple platforms. I don't see strong evidence of "mumble rap" being more derogatory than "SoundCloud rap". The negative reputation appears to be centered on the genre itself, and not its label. See The Guardian 's review of Total Xanarchy as an example. This review also helps confirm that "mumble rap" and "SoundCloud rap" are equivalent terms. —  Newslinger  talk   03:59, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * That source to say they're the same thing, would also constitute a merge with emo rap, which would be an entirely different conversation. Issan Sumisu (talk) 06:51, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * A merge sounds reasonable to me. Yes, that would be a reasonable discussion to have after this one is finished. —  Newslinger  talk   09:44, 1 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Support. If these terms refer to the same genre, and because I also don't see "mumble rap" being more derogatory than "SoundCloud rap", then it should be moved, especially if it is WP:COMMONNAME.  Sekyaw  (talk)  18:48, 5 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:COMMONNAME. "Mumble rap" returns more hits on Google News ( vs. ). Both terms definitely refer to the same subgenre and I see no evidence that one is more derogatory than the other.--Cúchullain t/ c 15:28, 6 August 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

6ix9ine
Since this page is now called "mumble rap", wouldn't it be appropriate to remove 6ix9ine from the list of artists? Tons of references refer to him as screaming or shouting, which is in clear contrast to the "mumbling" of the genre's namesake. Issan Sumisu (talk) 07:59, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Mumble rap isn't necessarily about just rapping in the mumble style, it is a whole movement of various rap styles including mumbling, shouting, humming, etc, grouped together under this umbrella term with the commonality of using a trap beat and incomprehensible delivery. <u style="color:#7f2ed1">Flooded <u style="color:#bfa6d8"> with them <u style="color:#7f2ed1">hundreds  08:37, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Trippie Redd should not be on this list
If you have listened to Trippie Redd you will know he does not mumble. He sings and raps clearly while sometimes screaming it is pretty easy to make out everything he says unlike other artist. He even said he doesn't consider himself a mumble rapper in an interview. Lyrically he can be even talented on some songs with good story telling such as hellboy. Brandonsm101 (talk) 11:06, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

This page does state in the "controversy of the term" section that the vast majority of the mumble rappers don't mumble, and instead sing. As well as that, what genre an artist believes their music is, doesn't affect what they're categorised as, for example: if I start a reggae band, but we call ourselves a black metal band, then that doesn't make us black metal. 16:30, 3 September 2018 (UTC)Issan Sumisu (talk)

SoundCloud rap is not "mumble rap" in the source
"Also dubbed emo rap or SoundCloud rap, this is an offshoot of mainstream hip-hop characterised by quietly mournful or noisily distorted production, rapped over by pan-racial MCs whose aesthetic is of a skate punk given an unlimited budget for accessories at Claire’s". Also, this is a possible source for the "SoundCloud rap" portion of the article.  Aleccat  22:29, 20 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Am I missing something? The source literally says that mumble rap is "also dubbed emo rap or SoundCloud rap". --Ilovetopaint (talk) 01:24, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 September 2018
Change "There is disagreement first rapped this style" to "There is disagreement over who first rapped in this style" Nanun Na (talk) 00:26, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Thanks for catching that! SkyGazer 512 <span style="background: linear-gradient(aqua, #d580ff);">Oh no, what did I do this time? 20:15, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 November 2018
A Boogie Wit Da Hoodie is not a mumble rapper. 90.201.189.180 (talk) 20:11, 11 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: There is a source for the claim that he is a mumble rapper. What sources suggest otherwise? DannyS712 (talk) 20:24, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

"Mumble rap" and "SoundCloud rap" need to be separated
"Mumble rap" is exclusively a derogatory term used by fans of technically lyrical rap to describe rap that they don't like. This includes Atlanta rap such as Young Thug, Future, Gunna, and Lil Baby, which features almost no mumbling and usually doesn't lack in lyrical content, but complaints have arisen from these technical rap fans because of the heavy use of vocal effects that put more of an emphasis on melody and flow than what's actually being said. Also, "mumble rap" is usually used to describe any rapper with "Lil" in their name, regardless of how their music sounds. The term has been used to describe both Lil Peep and Lil Pump, whose music could not sound more different from each other's, but they both have "Lil" in their names. "SoundCloud rap" is a group of styles that originated on SoundCloud. One of these styles usually uses atmospheric production with heavy 808s and focuses more on ad libs than lyrical content, drenched in heavy autotune. It's used by rappers like Playboi Carti, Ugly God, and more underground artists such as Basedtj and Lil Paycheck. A different style of SoundCloud rap, used mainly by Florida artists on the platform such as XXXTENTACION, Ski Mask The Slump God, Craig Xen, Lil Pump, and Smokepurrp, often uses the "aye" flow with heavily distorted bass, and may sometimes include screaming. While "SoundCloud rap" has also been called "mumble rap" by fans of technical rap, the term implies something completely different from Atlanta rap.

Basically, "mumble rap" is just a term used to describe any kind of rap that fans of technically lyrical rap don't like, and most of the music considered in the "microgenre" isn't similar at all stylistically. "SoundCloud rap" also doesn't even just describe a single style of rap, but it's more of an umbrella term to describe multiple subgenres because of the common platform used to promote the music.

Distortiondude (talk) 05:46, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 November 2018
I want to add a soundcloud rapper named Lil Astroid MarkusCooke (talk) 17:38, 25 November 2018 (UTC)


 * ❌ only notable rappers with a Wikipedia article are listed here.-- SkyGazer 512 <span style="background: linear-gradient(aqua, #d580ff);">Oh no, what did I do this time? 17:42, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 November 2018
Zillakami Rich Brian 21 Savage Killstation Shakewell Tyga Juicy J Casanova Night Lovell Ghostemane Bones Drake Blocboy JB Lil Baby Craig Xen Fat Nick 193.111.119.217 (talk) 13:09, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Source needed. <u style="font:1.1em/1em Arial Black"><u style="color:#7f2ed1">Flooded <u style="color:#bfa6d8"> with them <u style="color:#7f2ed1">hundreds 13:10, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Dividing stylistic origins
if we get enough sources/genres, dont you guys think there should be a division between mumble rap and soundcloud rap’s stylistic origins? they kinda are two different genres (ex. mumble rap doesnt come from indie rock, soundcloud rap does | mumble rap is influenced by drill, not soundcloud rap ) EveryonesFAVORITE*toy (talk) 18:41, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
 * What sources do you have? <u style="font:1.1em/1em Arial Black"><u style="color:#7f2ed1">Flooded <u style="color:#bfa6d8"> with them <u style="color:#7f2ed1">hundreds  18:44, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Lil Baby?
I know Lil Baby hasn't been as strongly affiliated with the whole SoundCloud movement as a lot of these other artists, but his style is pretty similar and he mumbles in a lot of his songs. I also have a source here that would suggest the same:

https://www.stereogum.com/1996436/playboi-carti-tee-grizzley-mumble-rap/franchises/status-aint-hood/

But I wanted to get some outside opinions before I added him. Thank you. The Shadow-Fighter (talk) 21:32, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

"Mumble rap" really should not be this article's name
Okay, I'm pointing something out here that's been debated numerous times before, but I think it's seriously inappropriate to have this article be titled "Mumble rap". That should not be an article at all, because it's a loosely-defined slang term that is typically used as a means of insult to the rappers in question. I do believe there should be a section here that states the use of the term "mumble rap", but to have it as the title of the article is like having the Heavy metal music article titled "loud screaming music".

Personally, I believe this article should be "SoundCloud rap", especially considering the fact that very few rappers listed here have "Mumble rap" listed in their genre box and is usually put as "SoundCloud rap", which redirects here. I do understand that there is substantial argument about whether "SoundCloud rap" and "Mumble rap" are actually interchangeable or if they constitute two different things, so I'm open to discussion here - maybe the article should be titled something different entirely. The main point here is simply that "Mumble rap" should definitely not be the title as it's a slang term typically used in a derogatory sense so does not represent an unbiased perspective on here. The Shadow-Fighter (talk) 06:55, 26 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm also totally for this, I made the argument during the last discussion that it was just slang pejorative, not the name of a genre and provided sources, but now there is so many more sources on the page saying that same thing, that more people would be inclined to believe me. Issan Sumisu (talk) 10:13, 26 December 2018 (UTC)


 * So what's the next step here? If you’re right that more people would be inclined to believe you now, should we go ahead and try to move the page? I’m just afraid if we act too hastily someone will just come and reverse it. The Shadow-Fighter (talk) 01:18, 27 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Check below, I instated a requested moved. Issan Sumisu (talk) 09:54, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 27 December 2018
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved (closed by non-admin page mover)  SITH   (talk)   14:49, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Mumble rap → SoundCloud rap – Per above, mumble rap is well referenced as being a pejorative, and thus is informal and most of the artists sourced in the article are sourced as being Soundcloud rap, rather than mumble rap. Issan Sumisu (talk) 10:55, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 * To start a formal Requested Move discussion, use  <u style="font-family:Arial Black"><u style="color:#7f2ed1">Flooded <u style="color:#bfa6d8"> with them <u style="color:#7f2ed1">hundreds  10:23, 27 December 2018 (UTC) --Relisting.   SITH   (talk)   11:29, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I had done that, but I must have done it wrong somehow, its working now though, thanks. Issan Sumisu (talk) 10:55, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose No matter what context some use the term in, "Mumble rap" is WP:COMMONNAME and not "SoundCloud rap". Whether it be describing or criticizing the term, much of the info in the article discusses the term "Mumble rap". The artists listed are sourced with both Mumble rap and SoundCloud rap due to the terms often being interchangeable.  Sekyaw  (talk)  16:01, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:COMMONNAME also says that neutrality should be considered, which "mumble rap" isn't as it is a pejorative. Issan Sumisu (talk) 16:10, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay... so you say SoundCloud rap and mumble rap are often interchangeable, so what's the objection here? There is literally not a single rapper who embraces the term "mumble rap" to describe themselves. It is clearly a derogatory term, and one that is very infrequently used in artist's genre boxes; as I said before, it's usually SoundCloud rap, which redirects here, and should probably just be the article's title. This is in addition to the fact that there are several artists listed here (6ix9ine, Trippie Redd, XXXTentacion, etc.) who do very little, if any, "mumbling" in their music at all, and are only listed here because they're affiliated with the "movement" rather than the style, which is all the more reason why SoundCloud rap is a more appropriate name. The Shadow-Fighter (talk) 18:53, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Saying that mumble rappers must "mumble" in their music is like saying that all SoundCloud rappers originated from SoundCloud, which, from the list in the article, they do not (Future, Migos, ...). Despite the amount of criticism on the term, it is not always used in a derogatory fashion. The info in the article is mainly based on the term "Mumble rap" and not "SoundCloud rap". If any changes would be made, I would suggest a split. I agree that not all of the artists are labeled with mumble rap, which is why some could be moved into a split SoundCloud rap article with new info on the term "SoundCloud rap", or removed from entirely from this Mumble rap article.  Sekyaw  (talk)  23:28, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
 * OpposeEladabudi (talk) 08:39, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
 * See, this is where I can't agree with that argument; SoundCloud has inspired a unique sound in music even outside its own platform, hence why some artists may embrace the term "SoundCloud rap" even if they never were personally affiliated with the platform. Mumbling, on the other hand, is a distinct form of vocalization; there is no "loose" definition of what "mumbling" is, because it's one specific type of vocalization. Let's say, for example, that there was a genre of music called "cassette rock", back when cassette tapes were in their prime. Let's say that this style of rock music was distinct because many prominent artists who rose to fame from being on cassette tapes were characterized by low-fi production and lots of screaming, but still not every artist whose music was on cassette tapes sounded quite like this. Because of this, many other artists who have a similar style may embrace the term "cassette rock" even if their music never originated from cassette tapes. Now, under this scenario, would it be fair to call this style of music "screaming low-fi music", or would it be better to call it "cassette rock"? I think most would argue the latter. Am I making sense here? Back to my argument of "mumbling" being distinctive, this is where it comes into play that having artists like 6ix9ine on an article called "mumble rap" is just plain ridiculous. 6ix9ine's guttural screaming is literally the farthest thing in the world from "mumbling", yet he's on this article because he's affiliated with the "movement" rather than the style, namely because he originated from SoundCloud. This is on top of my additional previous argument that there is not a single rapper who embraces the term mumble rap, and it was plainly used in a derogatory sense in its original conception. News articles have since misguidedly ran with the term "mumble rap" to describe this style, which is why so many sources point to this usage of the term, hence why so many people are insistent on having the biased and derogatory term used as the article's title, but I cannot reason with this. The Shadow-Fighter (talk) 20:12, 28 December 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Proposed merge of Mumble rap into Emo rap
Merging Mumble rap into Emo rap would resolve any remaining neutrality issues with the "Mumble rap" article name. There is significant overlap between the subjects covered in both articles, and any differences between the terms (including their connotations and the lists of artists associated with each term) can be addressed in the combined article.

The Guardian considers mumble rap, emo rap and SoundCloud rap the same genre in "Sex, drugs, violence and face tattoos: mumble rap explained" (published in the South China Morning Post) and "Lil Xan: Total Xanarchy review – moronic rap to make you feel old". Among these three terms, emo rap is the only one that doesn't suffer from neutrality or scope problems. —  Newslinger  talk   13:15, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

There is no way that emo rap and mumble rap are the same genre. That would mean Kid Cudi and 21 Savage are in the same genre. Mumble rap is very different than emo rap as mumble rap is much more upbeat, braggadocios and talks more about jewelry. Emo rap revolves around drugs an despression. These are very different genres and should not be put in the same article. LilliamPumpernickl134 (talk) 15:47, 9 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Artists aren't restricted to just one genre. Kid Cudi's Man on the Moon: The End of Day is currently classified as alternative hip hop and psychedelia, while 21 Savage's Issa Album is under hip hop and trap music. Can you find a reliable source showing that mumble rap and emo rap are separate genres? —  Newslinger  talk   15:59, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Of course their not restricted to one genre, but just tell me one time Kid Cudi did mumble rap. Or one time 21 Savage did emo rap. SoundCloud rap and Mumble rap shouldn't have been merged into one article in the first place because by doing that, we have stated Ski Mask the Slump God, Juice WRLD and Travis Scott are mumble rappers which they are obviously not. This merger would be just another confusion.LilliamPumpernickl134 (talk) 20:33, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure this would clear up the problems with the article title, because the arguments for it being moved is it that it is just a derogatory term, and if we were to merge them, it would still have that problem, it would just also have another issue in that the vast majority of sources describing emo rap describe a significantly different style to what is described on this page. Issan Sumisu (talk) 16:52, 9 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose - These are really not the same thing. Mumble rap emerged as a part of 2010s culture meanwhile emo rap has existed for much longer. This article has 63 sources too which is more than enough to be its own article. This proposal is akin to a proposal to merge blue-eyed soul and soul music when they're clearly used to describe very different artists.-- N Ø  19:10, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
 * "emo rap has existed for much longer" This is incorrect. While the term "emo rap" was used before, the real scene that made what it considered nowadays "emo rap" only started to take shape in the mid-2010s. I 100% agree with the opposition though: not all emo rap contains mumbling while not all "mumble rap" is considered emo rap. The two terms aren't synonymous at all.--Dundeezic (talk) 18:05, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose - --Dundeezic (talk) 18:05, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose - not remotely the same thing, there is a significant amount of overlap of course, but there is also overlap between Black Metal and Satanism, but because many Black Metal musicians are associated with Satanic-themed music and many notable Mumble rappers have released emo-themed music does not mean the two terms are homogeneous. Inter&#38;anthro (talk) 05:47, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Clearly a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. You're going to keep making proposals until you get the result you desire. -- Flooded w/ them 100s  08:06, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Punk rap, Mumble rap, and Soundcloud rap should be 3 different articles
alright so peep, on multiple articles, i’ve seen people using “soundcloud rap” as more of a term, to describe the types of rap on soundcloud. and those types of rap would be mumble & emo rap. so, on the soundcloud rap page, it should probably read “umbrella term to describe emo/punk/mumble rap”. why? because, using our knowledge of the genres (and some articles), mumble rap=autotuned trap, emo rap= emo autotuned trap, and, a term on this page that is "synonymous”, punk/grunge/lo-fi rap, which, from the source is described as the loud, distorted, short trap music we originally knew as soundcloud rap. which isnt anything like mumble rap. so theres the reason for the punk rap page. and if it was created, it’d probably just be “conflated with soundcloud rap”. excuse me if this whole thing is all over the place, im just spewing ideas, but i think you get the point. - everyonesFAVORITE*toy (talk) 01:57, 30 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Support: Repeatedly renaming this article is very confusing at this point. Sure, those three genres do overlap and share some of the same elements, but all three of them can work as separate entities/stand on their own. - LouisVuittonDevil17 (talk) 22:14, 31 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I do totally support the separation, but most sources don't seem to support the more aggressive style just being called Soundcloud rap, there's definitely some but take https://www.vulture.com/2018/04/2018-soundcloud-rappers-guide.html as an example, it cites the "punk rap" artists that are often cited like X and Ski Mask but it also cites Lil Xan and Lil Skies. There must be a better term to describe that style, because it isn't trap metal really, because the only element of it in common with metal is shouted vocals and punk rap is already a term used pretty often to describe rap-influenced punk artists like Transplants, early-Beastie Boys and Zebrahead (despite "rapcore" being more common). It seems like a bit of a stretch to say that it could go on the rapcore page and the current citation on this page saying Soundcloud rap and punk rap are the same thing totally doesn't say that at all, it just refers to Denzel Curry as "lo-fi punk rap". Punk rap does seem to be one of the most commonly used term but there isn't really a source connecting the term with Soundcloud rap, that I can find, and I've quite often heard "hardcore trap" as the name for it as well, with someone like Ski Mask being cited in https://theithacan.org/life-culture/review-stokeley-album-is-charmingly-off-kilter/ but again, no source saying their synonymous. Issan Sumisu (talk) 09:18, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

we could make it like the emo page where there's original and subsequent stylistic origins on the rapcore page (regarding punk rap) because—-and i think we can all agree on this—-rapcore is dead as hell right now. and punk rap is the most used term out of the 3 (punk/grunge/lo-fi rap). everyonesFAVORITE*toy (talk) 23:02, 3 February 2019 (UTC)


 * I disagree totally that rapcore is dead, Fever 333 have been getting tons of attention in the mainstream recently, as have Stray From the Path. Issan Sumisu (talk) 07:23, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

damn 2 bands? that’s crazy 😳; anyways, what do you think about that? or like a second generation section of it. everyonesFAVORITE*toy (talk) 22:07, 4 February 2019 (UTC)


 * I just checked through the sources, on the page to say that rapcore and rap punk are synonyms, online and they all just say what rapcore is, not referencing the other terms as synonyms, and looking back on the page history, they were used for years just to describe what styles that genre fuses together, not anything to do with terminology, so for now the punk rap should be free to use on its own unless somebody can find a source legit saying they are synonyms. Issan Sumisu (talk) 22:35, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

ayo guys, i’m making progress on the punk rap page! all i need is some help for like extra sections (such as characteristics or even criticism and etc.) i have the notable artists down already, like a whole list full.

edit: i made a draft page instead under the name Draft:Punk rap everyonesFAVORITE*toy (talk) 07:41, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

so uh, is the punk rap page ready or? everyonesFAVORITE*toy (talk) 19:20, 1 March 2019 (UTC)


 * No, I definitely think there should at least be a "characteristics" section or a "history" section, an intro and a list of artists doesn't seem like enough. Issan Sumisu (talk) 08:46, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

avant-punk everyonesFAVORITE*toy (talk) 15:34, 4 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Most pages like avant-punk have existed for a long time and that's how they've stayed on Wikipedia, but now it's much harder to get a short page reviewed and not get a deletion notice. Issan Sumisu (talk) 16:19, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

understandable edit: added characteristics section everyonesFAVORITE*toy (talk) 17:27, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

UPDATE: NEW SOUNDCLOUD RAP PAGE IS FINISHED, MUMBLE RAP JUST NEEDS TO BE ADJUSTED ACCORDINGLY AND THE PUNK RAP PAGE JUST NEEDS A LITTLE MORE FAT IN THE CHARACTERISTICS SECTION, AND THEN WE’RE GOOD. everyonesFAVORITE*toy (talk) 01:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 February 2019
I think Denzel Curry, Juice WRLD, Travis Scott, and Ski Mask the Slump God should be removed from the Notable artists list because I don't see them as mumble rappers. Jameshoward888 (talk) 22:10, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:25, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

wow this list fucking sucks

Semi-protected edit request on 4 March 2019
Denzel Curry is the opposite of a mumble rapper, he uses clever wordplay and talks about deep things, saying he is a mumble rapper is like saying that Joey Bada$$ or J. Cole is a mumble rapper this aint it chief delete this RGVFW (talk) 22:48, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.   Alucard 16  ❯❯❯ chat?    17:46, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 March 2019
ItzDM (talk) 01:36, 13 March 2019 (UTC) Get Rid of Lil Skies and add Lil Baby to that area.
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: why? DannyS712 (talk) 05:27, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 April 2019
I have some reliable sources on this topic and I need to do an edit for a class assignment. Stwallacejr (talk) 21:47, 8 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Þjarkur (talk) 23:19, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 April 2019
remove Denzel curry from the mumble/cloud rapper list as he is an acclaimed skilled lyricist Feistycat (talk) 00:29, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. DannyS712 (talk) 14:34, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 May 2019
Denzel Curry isn't a mumble rapper and isn't classified as one on his wikipedia page. 2001:569:74F0:C900:756B:939C:2074:2D7D (talk) 20:17, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: While his article does not mention mumble rap/soundcloud rap, the source in this article calls him the "father of South Florida SoundCloud rap". I suggest starting a talk page discussion to gain consensus on his inclusion/exlcusion. <b style="color:black">Nici</b><b style="color:purple">Vampire</b><b style="color:black">Heart</b> 22:54, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 May 2019
31.11.55.234 (talk) 06:42, 25 May 2019 (UTC) Blueface
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jannik Schwaß (talk) 07:09, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Coined 2016? But it was already used in 2014
It says in this article that mumble rap was coined by Wiz Khalifa in 2016, yet there's a video interview with Loaded Lux in 2014 that uses the term.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8E_qHB1PwXc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.235.178.140 (talk) 02:19, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Inclusion of scat singing in see also
[copied and pasted from my edit summary December 1, 2019, U.S. Eastern Time] I removed it before but it was added back. I do not think this belongs. Scat singing is literal gibberish that was created in another genre (jazz) 90 years ago; mumble rap is AutoTuned "processed" singing that while it may not be objectively "good" or "intellectual" and at times intentionally hard to understand, it's at least real words. uncited anyway and this could probably use sourcing. if you have a problem, please use the talk page to make it known, thank you. The brave celery (talk) 20:14, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Not a "microgenre"
Microgenre means an extremely specific genre. However, "mumble rap" is a very vague and loose label that attaches itself to a huge number of artists spanning across multiple styles and decades of Hip-Hop anywhere from Gucci Mane to 6ix9ine to Machine Gun Kelly. I see that we have a source for it being called a microgenre. And that's better than nothing. But I'm not sure we should label it that just because some random blog article did, when most of the other attempts to define the term point to its use being the exact opposite of a microgenre. Nikki Lee 1999 (talk) 03:06, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Racism
This entire page sounds like a baseless and racist smear of a black-dominated industry. "Mumble rap" isn't real, it's a fantasy of anti-black whites who want to de-intellectualise and disregard rap. Just because it's hard for euro-centric and non-black/white audiences to understand doesn't mean it's "mumble". Please delete or reword this entire article. ButterSlipper (talk) 21:16, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

i agree and the best example of this is the inclusion of robert christgau’s opinion where he says it’s sexist and not worth listening to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:A240:3B3A:F49A:21C3:363:8D7F (talk) 11:49, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Is mumble rap really synonymous to SoundCloud rap?
Maybe it’s personal opinion but I wouldn’t consider a lot of the artists that are defined as SoundCloud rappers (XXXTentacion, Juice Wrld, Lil Peep, etc.) to be in the “mumble rap” genre. TheXuitts (talk) 08:35, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Soundcloud
This article is awful. Soundcloud is a music streaming service, NOT a genre of music. Do we say 'Spotify music' or 'iTunes music'? No! Use the term trap or cloud rap, but Soundcloud is not a subgenre. Using Soundcloud artists as a term for artists who gained notoriety on the platform (Lil Yachty, XXXTentacion, Lil Uzi Vert) is fine, but you can't just call anyone who uses autotune or 'mumbling' a Soundcloud rapper. Young Thug could be described as one, but he didn't blow up on the platform. Hence, this doesn't make him a SoundCloud rapper. Anfwepgnrwfinre (talk) 21:06, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

remove robert christgaus criticism
it adds nothing to the article and is stupid — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:A240:3B3A:F49A:21C3:363:8D7F (talk) 12:00, 12 December 2021 (UTC)