Talk:Munroe Falls, Ohio

Private schools outside of the city
I have been deleting a paragraph listing private schools outside of Munroe Falls. The paragraph does nothing to describe Munroe Falls itself. Residents of the city do lots of things outside of Munroe Falls and that is not relevant to the city itself. If this practice were followed elsewhere, nearly every city would need to list private schools outside of their boundaries, which would not make sense. --Beirne (talk) 17:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, see WikiProject Cities/Guideline. They barely want the schools in the city listed and do not suggest that schools outside be listed at all. --Beirne (talk) 17:07, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. While I don't think it's that bad to list a few of the closest schools, I can see how that would quickly get out of hand. This latest example only proves that point. As for the paragraph, to the new editor please stop rewording it. --JonRidinger (talk) 17:15, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Additionally, the "citations" merely proved that those private schools have students from the Stow-Munroe Falls City Schools, not necessarily from Munroe Falls itself. Remember, this article is about the city of Munroe Falls, not the schools. It's actually a stretch that all the schools are even listed here, but listing every private school? Yeah that can get a bit much. Perhaps a small sentence that Munroe Falls is served by a number of private schools in the general area. Also, in regards to the paragraph about the public schools, the way I reworded it is more direct and forward and removes much of the parenthesis. Too many parenthesis make it more difficult to read. Also, try to avoid personifying Munroe Falls by saying "Munroe Falls shares..." No, Munroe Falls is part of the school district. It's more encyclopedic and accurate especially since not all of Munroe Falls is in the same district. --JonRidinger (talk) 17:23, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * While we're at it, does it even make sense to list all of the public schools? Do residents attend all of them? Would it make more sense just to list the ones within the borders of the city and mention the high school? --Beirne (talk) 21:24, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * First of all, I think we're all in agreement that there should be a section devoted to Education, yes? Secondly, saying Munroe Falls shares a district in Stow does not eliminate the possibility of it sharing other districts with other cities, so I don't really buy the whole "personifying" argument. And I don't see any problem listing the names of the nine schools in the SMF district. I definitely agree that the private schools can get out of hand, so that's why I found what appears to be a credible website on private schools, and narrowed the criteria to: 1. 10 miles within the Munroe Falls zipcode, 2. secondary schools only (the number of primary/elementary private schools is mind-boggling) and 3. those secondary schools with enrollments of at least 100 students. Look, I'm not 100% knowledgeable on the minutia of how Wikipedia DOES run, but I do have a pretty good idea, and I also think Wikipedia and its registered users should encourage contributions rather than slapping them down left and right. If I'm a casual Wikipedia reader and I want to read about Munroe Falls, who is to say the names of the schools in the Stow-MUNROE FALLS City School District aren't relevant? Who is to say that local private schools aren't relevant? I understand removing "Sir Adam Pees" from SMFHS Notable Alumni, but bickering over trivial stuff like this? Honestly, if the information is relevant and accurate, I say leave it.


 * What I meant by personification is when you say the city "does" something. Munroe Falls is a municipality. IT cannot DO anything. It's people DO things. It's people are served by the district, so saying it "shares" a district with Stow is personifying the city and is unencyclopedic. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a casual read. In addition, the district is independent of the cities of Stow and Munroe Falls and also includes part of Franklin Township, so it's inaccurate to say Munroe Falls "shares" but more accurate to say "most of the city is served by." As for the schools, remember, this article is about Munroe Falls, not "within 10 miles of Munroe Falls". Listing the schools in the district is a stretch (but I think OK) since there is a link to the district article already. In other words, if a casual reader such as yourself wants to know, they can click on the article and find out which schools are in said district. I don't have a problem with the names of the schools in the district that directly serves most of the city. Remember the subject of the article is whats important here, not tangents. The only private schools that should be listed really are any that are inside the city limits of Munroe Falls. The same would be true for the Stow article. Mentioning that each city is served by a number of private schools in the area is appropriate, but not listing a whole bunch of them.
 * As for your argument about "smacking down" new users contributions, I know it may appear that way, but bear in mind we are trying to work with you here and our objective is making the article good according to established standards and policies. We've all been new editors ourselves and understand your frustrations, but we also know what the policies and standards are for good articles and what should and should not be included. The key here is not to take edits personally like we're attacking you by modifying or removing info you may have contributed. Really, the only reason you should revert anything is because what someone did drastically changes the meaning or introduces something that is blatantly false. The key here is to work together and learn and be open to the possibility that your edit may be changed. --JonRidinger (talk) 23:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I know you're a Wikipedia veteran, but I've lived in both Stow and Munroe Falls, and I graduated from the SMF district after starting in Kindergarten. Surely that means something. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.64.103.117 (talk) 23:14, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

<---I've gathered that from your edits to Stow-related articles. Unfortunately, that doesn't really have anything to do with the discussion regarding what should and shouldn't be included in this article and how it should be written. No one owns this article no matter how close they are to the subject. What that means to you is you have much more of an interest in the subject than most. It doesn't excuse you from following guidelines or needing valid sources. Also, please remember to sign your posts with ~ Thanks --JonRidinger (talk) 23:21, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Jon is correct. There is always a problem of border creep in city articles. People like to include more than their city in the article, because they don't think much about borders or they want more in the article. The problem is that the Wikipedia reader who wants to read about the city has to wade through information that is not about the city. And 71.6.103.117, growing up in the city doesn't really mean anything. We are discussing Wikipedia standards, and where someone is from is not relevant. --Beirne (talk) 23:23, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Are there any private schools in MF? In my opinion, mentioning it/them would be no more or less reasonable than mentioning all public schools in MF. However, private schools outside the city aren't significant enough to the city itself that they should be mentioned—unlike public school districts, which can include multiple municipalities (in this case, Stow), private schools don't have assigned boundaries, so a school outside the city really isn't relevant. If a famous private school were located very close to the city and traditionally associated with it (for example, if it had the same ZIP code) by nonlocals, that would be different, but I don't see anything of that with these private schools. Nyttend (talk) 23:31, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, the "don't list all schools in the city" is really applicable more to large cities; it's intended to prohibit situations such as the Education section in this version of Wichita, Kansas. When we have a small number of schools in the city, it's helpful and useful to list them. Do MF students attend the intermediate school or any of the five elementaries that are not located in the city? In my opinion, when we're working with public schools, it would be best to include all schools to which MF residents are zoned/districted/assigned, etc.; i.e. all schools that are defaults for MF children. Nyttend (talk) 23:37, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "...that doesn't have anything to do with the discussion regarding what should and shouldn't be included." See, that's where you are simply wrong. I agree that bias can and will occur when editing, but if you eliminated every person who had any connection whatsoever to any of the entries on this site, Wikipedia wouldn't have lasted a week. If and when I happen to edit something that is truly biased, that's where user JonRidinger may enter. Living in a city IS relevant. Short of intense research on the part of some interested third party, is there anything more relevant to knowledge of a city than living in said city? Wikipedia standards can and should adapt.71.64.103.117 (talk) 23:40, 27 August 2009 (UTC)anonymous contributor of relevant and accurate information pertaining to Stow, Munroe Falls, et al
 * The point is not that you're unwelcome to contribute because of where you live, but that where you live doesn't mean that your ideas about how to write an article are necessarily superior to others' ideas, especially when your ideas seem to conflict with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. In some cases, it's best for nonlocals to defer to locals—see my comments about deferring to local opinion at Talk:National Register of Historic Places listings in Denver, Colorado, and note that I'm not the only one who holds such a position—but that's not a hard and fast rule. Moreover, statements by those who say that they are locals aren't by themselves and more of reliable sources than statements by those who say that they aren't locals. How do I know that you have lived many years in Stow and MF? I'll assume that you're telling the truth—why should I think otherwise?—but it is possible for a visitor to take an interest in the city and edit on a local IP address while visiting the city. If you disagree with Wikipedia's standards, you're welcome to propose changes—after all, consensus can change—but please understand that, at this point, Wikipedia's standards say that living in a community doesn't give you any authority over those of us who haven't. Nyttend (talk) 23:52, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I have never made any claims of authority over other users. Rather, it appears that certain "nonlocal" users are making claims that being a long time resident and student aren't relevant at all. On this I completely disagree. Granted, bias needs to be checked. But can anyone really argue that living in a city bears no relevance in terms of knowledge of that city? I do see your point on whether or not you can trust that I have been a long time resident and student. So touche, there.Poenam dare44 (talk) 00:06, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Poenam, are you the same person that just said "Surely that means something"? Perhaps my wording wasn't the best; my point is that where you live doesn't necessarily "mean something" on Wikipedia. Sometimes it may mean something, but it doesn't give you the right to tell nonlocals that they're going about something all wrongly—you have no more or less rights than any other user, whether they're from MF or from Bossembélé. Nyttend (talk) 00:21, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Break
I understand what you're feeling because I felt the same way when I first started editing. What I came to realize is that me living somewhere made it easier for me to contribute things like photos, but that still didn't excuse me from providing actual sources to info I had or things I knew. As an amateur historian, I've also come to discover local myths and legends versus reality. There are many things we as locals believe and say about our histories that are inaccurate or downright false. And while I have never lived in Stow or Munroe Falls, I grew up and currently live in Kent, so it's not like I'm unfamiliar with Stow, Munroe Falls, or the schools. That said, in the end, there are still standards in what is important and notable enough to include in an article and how it should be presented. Remember, these articles aren't property of Munroe Falls, Stow, or even its residents; they are Wikipedia articles about those specific subjects. You being a local should help you contriubute by allowing you access to additional sources that may only be available locally (like local histories) and as you have already done, allow you to contribute images as needed. I have done extensive edits on the Kent, Ohio article and I always have sources. My interest in taking the time to make additions and edits is because I am a local, but the way I write and what I include is based on my role as a Wikipedia editor, not as a "Kentite". --JonRidinger (talk) 00:04, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I routinely add sources. Many of the 20 sources for Stow-Munroe Falls High School I made myself.71.64.103.117 (talk) 00:09, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * That's great, but just because something has a source doesn't mean it automatically belongs in an article. Again, we're not questioning the content or veracity of your additions; we're questioning other aspects like whether it's relevant to this specific article. And again, no one is questioning your knowledge, but there is a limit on what should and what shouldn't be included in an article. Just because we know something doesn't mean it's true, varifiable, or even worth putting in an article. There is PLENTY of information I could add to the Kent article from my ongoing study of its history, but I have to decide what is most relevant for this article. And again, without reliable sources, there is no way to verify that what I am saying is actually true. From my experience, it is better to have a collection of local and non-local editors on a specific article. They each bring valuable contributions and points of view that can greatly compliment each other. --JonRidinger (talk) 00:23, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi there. I'm also a "veteran" on Wikipedia, but a local as well. I think including schools within a 10 mile radius of Munroe Falls, besides being needlessly inclusive, is also quite arbitrary. Why 10 miles? For a couple more miles, we can include St. Patrick School in Ravenna, the St. Joseph schools in Randolph and Mantua, and maybe a few more schools in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Youngstown. Although at that point, their relevance to the subject of the article has to be strained. My vote: Stick to SMFHS and the schools actually in Munroe Falls. -- JeffBillman (talk) 00:40, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What do you think of including schools in Stow that MF residents attend by default? In other words—if those MF children who don't want to take advantage of open enrollment attend Woodland Elementary, would you want it to be included? Understand that I don't know if the sub-district boundaries of Woodland (or those of any other elementary not in MF) include any parts of MF; I'm just using this as an example. Nyttend (talk) 00:46, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * When I first revised the section, I kept the list of all schools in the district (in prose form) and specified which of the buildings are actually in Munroe Falls, Riverview Elementary and Kimpton Middle. The only other info that may be included in the section is the size of the district in terms of enrollment. In the end, the names of the non-notable schools aren't really that important since there is a link to the district article and it doesn't really make that much of a difference if the reader doesn't know the names of the elementary schools (which goes for any article, not just this one). --JonRidinger (talk) 01:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I looked at WikiProject_Cities/Guideline and it says Provide information on the K-12 public and private schools in the city, as well as any colleges and universities that might be present. You might also include some information on the school board, as well as how many students and teachers are in the system. Are there any top-rated schools in the city? What about top-rated teachers (teacher of the year)? Be sure to include references for top-rated schools/teachers. Do NOT list all the schools in a city unless this is a very short list. Generally the article on a particlular city / place is limited to the things which are actually in that place. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:34, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think Nyttend has a good idea on the public schools. The list would then include the two schools within the city limits, the intermediate school, and the high school. If someone knows that residents of Munroe Falls attend other schools in the district based on where they live then they can be included too. On the private schools, Jeff makes a a good point. Once we get beyond the borders of the city it is all arbitrary and there is no clear tie to the city. --Beirne (talk) 01:37, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

boldface
from boldface mos page: "Boldface is used to separate the article name from ordinary text. It is typically used in the first paragraph of an article, used with proper names and common terms for the article topic, including any synonyms and acronyms. Do this only for the first occurrence of the term."

Florence is not the name of the Munroe Falls article. Florence is not the proper name of Munroe Falls. Florence is not a common term for the article topic (Munroe Falls). The article as a whole is about Munroe Falls, not historic Munroe Falls.

also from boldface mos page(s): "Use italics, not boldface, for emphasis in article text. Use boldface in the remainder of the article only for a few special uses:

* Table headers * Definition lists (example: Glossary of trucking industry terms in the United States) * Volume numbers of journal articles, in some bibliographic formats"

Florence doesn't fall into any of the above categories, so use italics (although even that seems unnecessary). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.64.103.117 (talk) 22:09, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * You conveniently left out the section from MOS:BOLDTITLE I placed on your talk page: "If the subject of the page has a common abbreviation or more than one name, the abbreviation (in parentheses) and each additional name should be in boldface on its first appearance." (emphasis added). While Florence is certainly not the current name of Munroe Falls, it is an historical and former name, meaning the name "Florence" does show up in published histories and is referencing modern Munroe Falls. Minor yes, but still a fact. Just because the name isn't current doesn't mean it isn't an additional name. Bolding makes it easier to find, which is especially helpful when redirects and disambiguation pages direct to a specific article. The same goes for the previous names of Kent, Ohio. --JonRidinger (talk) 04:42, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * "Just because the name isn't current doesn't mean it isn't an additional name."

Do you honestly consider Florence another name for Munroe Falls? Have you ever heard anyone refer to Munroe Falls as Florence? Ever? Florence IS not another name for Munroe Falls. The name is historic, not current, and therefore IS not an additional name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.64.103.117 (talk) 14:17, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Florence is an historical name of Munroe Falls and historical names are additional names. Additional names are not just for current names or nicknames, especially when that name appears in published sources. --JonRidinger (talk) 17:41, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

smf chamber of commerce v. library
please justify including one and not the other —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.64.103.117 (talk) 02:56, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Well the first reason for this article specifically would be because the library isn't within the city limits of Munroe Falls, though it could be mentioned in the education section since it serves the city residents. If you did that, the reference would most certainly be a link to the library website, then you would have a link there. Second, the external links section is more geared towards the city in general, which is why a chamber of commerce, historical society, and government page would be appropriate. Really, according to WP:EL, external links should be kept at a minimum which is why the WP:USCITY guidelines were created. And since no featured article has the local library included in their external links section, we really can't justify it being here. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * first point-- the chamber of commerce is in stow and you've authorized that listing; second point-- "geared toward the city in general"... exactly, by including the city's only library, the stow-munroe falls public library --71.64.103.117 (talk) 03:13, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh and I totally understand your points. True the chamber of commerce is in Stow, but it promotes all of Munroe Falls with Stow, so it would have general info. The library is much like the school district; it's part of the educational aspect of Munroe Falls. If you include the library in the external links, why not the schools? How bout the parks and recreation department? Why not a local large business? That's probably why the guidelines were written the way they were; to keep the external links section from getting out of hand. The only place an external link for the library would be appropriate would be if the library had a Wikipedia article and I don't think it is notable enough as most suburban libraries aren't. The only reason Kent's library is notable is because it's a Carnegie library. Honestly, if you really feel an external link is needed, use it in a citation. I think it would be a great addition to the education section as most libraries in this area are associated with the local school district. It could also be mentioned in the general history section. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:32, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

1925
For the issue regarding the 1921 status as a village and the 1925 revocation of the Munroe Falls charter, there is some uncertainty as to what it is specifically referring to. Munroe Falls incorporated in 1838 as a village, so I'm not totally sure if what happened in 1921 was another incorporation or simply the establishment of a new charter. It could've also been the formation of a township to completely separate from Stow. Cuyahoga Falls, for instance, incorporated as a village in 1836 and in 1852, Cuyahoga Falls Township was created, formally separating Cuyahoga Falls from the old Stow, Portage, Northampton, and Tallmadge Townships. Because of that the village council was dissolved. Cuyahoga Falls incorporated again as a village in 1868. Stow did not incorporate until 1957 (from a vote) and officially became a city after the 1960 census. I'm assuming the source from the Akron Sunday Times is on microfilm. Is a digital scan of it available? --JonRidinger (talk) 02:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

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