Talk:Murasaki Shikibu Nikki Emaki

Comments

 * So does it mean, that samurai were less mannered and less esoteric than the aristocracy?
 * Yes, exactly. Basicaly, the Heian pediod was dominated by Shingon and Tendai schools (which are esoteric), and the Kamakura pediod by Pure Land and Zen Buddhism (and some other old schools).
 * I see, rewritten as: "who were culturally less mannered and less esoteric than the aristocracy". Not sure yet how religions/esotericism is relevant here.
 * Hm, the idea is just: due to political and religious changes in Kamakura period, the art of emaki evolves a lot, but some artists still follow the traditionnal aristocratic style (known as onna-e). Indeed the esoteric/non esoteric Buddhism is more a detail.


 * OK, but what are "dynamic stories" anyway? With more action?
 * To cite Okudaira: "Quick-moving narrative scrolls", a scroll with more action, incidents, adventure, "peripeties". For example war chronicles, popular tales, lengends, epics... Maybe "dynamic" is not the most suitable term in english...
 * rewritten for the time being as "Quick-moving narrative scrolls" such as war tales or legends


 * Helpful in which sense? To change the palace society for better?
 * Keene says that Lady Murasaky seems to feel lonely and isolated in her diary; as she can perceive the true personnality of people (and she is very critical about her contemporaries), Keene explains that this quality is not very helpful for living in a close society. Perhaps that explains why she feels so lonely, according to him.

Just for information, the books of E. Grilli and M. Murase also exist in english (but I can't verify the pages cited in these editions). Binabik155 (talk) 15:58, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. Will see how to rewrite the phrases. Unfortunately I don't have any library access, so finding sources is very hard for me. bamse (talk) 16:48, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I have read and commented the end! Binabik155 (talk) 19:01, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot. I think I have incorporated all of your comments. Will slowly add information from other sources and make it more English. bamse (talk) 12:23, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Points
Hi Bamse, a few points: I'm stopping now to think a little more about the structure, but will work my way through the full page as I have time. Truthkeeper (talk) 13:53, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The histriography is fairly short and I'm thinking that material might work well in the background. Have you thought about combining the two?
 * Indeed it could be combined. Where do you think it would fit best? At the end of the "Description" section?
 * I'm not entirely sure, I need to look at it again and think about it.
 * I have yet another source that explains the fukinuki yatai but need to dig it out and review. Will send it on to you if I think it would be helpful.
 * That could be interesting. If not for this article, maybe for fukinuki yatai which I might write some day.
 * Will retrieve and send on next week.
 * I've tried combining some of the scenes. Don't know whether it works well or not. What do you think?
 * That could work, but perhaps the scene number should be mentioned explicitly in each of the paragraphs!? For instance the 3rd paragraph of the Hachisuka scroll does not mention explicitly that it is about the 3rd scene, so could be confusing. However at the moment I prefer descriptive headings summarizing the text. There are some headings in the original text (non-emaki), that could be used for this, but that would require a bit more research. I'll look into it in 2012. Most likely some sections (that are about the same event) would still need to be combined.
 * Thanks. I replied above. Perhaps it will be better to wait with copy editing until I completed item 3 above (unless you convince me that it is a bad idea to have descriptive headings) since that will also need a change in prose. bamse (talk) 18:31, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree - I'm very torn about the structure and having the separate scenes. On the one hand it separates out each section nicely, on the other hand make a long TOC and will require more prose work. That's why I stopped - so that it can easily be put back as it was if you wish, and to think about how to structure. Btw - feel free to revert the edit that combined the three sections - it was an experiment. Truthkeeper (talk) 18:38, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * In the Japanese source, the text is divided into parts, chapters and sections (each of these have a name). I started to match the emaki texts to sections (see below), but am not sure yet whether this all makes sense. bamse (talk) 22:47, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Hachisuka
emaki is identical with content of that heading/section
 * scene 1:
 * Part 1 Record of the birth of Atsuhira-shinnō (第一部　敦成親王誕生記)
 * Chapter 1, Kanko 5 (1008), autumn (第一章　寛弘五年（一〇〇八）秋の記)
 * Section 18; 9th month, 13th day evening; 3rd day birth celebration by queen's majordomo (一八　九月十三日夜、三日の中宮職主催の御産養)

emaki does not cover all (but almost all) of that heading/section
 * scenes 2, 3A, 3B, 4, 5:
 * Part 1 Record of the birth of Atsuhira-shinnō (第一部　敦成親王誕生記)
 * Chapter 1, Kanko 5 (1008), autumn (第一章　寛弘五年（一〇〇八）秋の記)
 * Section 19; 9th month, 15th day evening; 5th day birth celebration by Michinaga (一九　九月十五日夜、五日の道長主催の御産養)

emaki covers small part of that heading/section towards the end of that heading/section
 * scene 6:
 * Part 2; criticism/commentary on palace officials and court ladies (第二部　宮仕女房批評記)
 * Chapter 2; self reflection (第二章　わが身と心を自省)
 * Section 4; Chronicle lady and reflections on childhood period (四　日本紀の御局と少女時代回想)

emaki covers about 50% of that heading towards the midle of the heading
 * scene 7:
 * Part 1 Record of the birth of Atsuhira-shinnō (第一部　敦成親王誕生記)
 * Chapter 2; Kanko 5 (1008), winter (第二章　寛弘五年（一〇〇八）冬の記)
 * Section 17; 22nd day, "卯の日" female Gosechi dancers, "looking at girls" (一七　二十二日卯の日、五節の舞姫、童女御覧)

Fujita

 * Scene 1
 * Part 1 Record of the birth of Atsuhira-shinnō (第一部　敦成親王誕生記)
 * Chapter 1, Kanko 5 (1008), autumn (第一章　寛弘五年（一〇〇八）秋の記)
 * Section 19; 9th month, 15th day evening; 5th day birth celebration by Michinaga (一九　九月十五日夜、五日の道長主催の御産養)


 * Scenes 2, 3
 * Part 1 Record of the birth of Atsuhira-shinnō (第一部　敦成親王誕生記)
 * Chapter 1, Kanko 5 (1008), autumn (第一章　寛弘五年（一〇〇八）秋の記)
 * Section 20; 9th month, 16th day evening; boating of young court ladies (二〇　九月十六日夜、若い女房たちの舟遊び)


 * Scene 4
 * Part 1 Record of the birth of Atsuhira-shinnō (第一部　敦成親王誕生記)
 * Chapter 1, Kanko 5 (1008), autumn (第一章　寛弘五年（一〇〇八）秋の記)
 * Section 21; 9th month, 17th day, evening; birth celebration organized by the Imperial Court (二一　九月十七日夜、朝廷主催の御産養)


 * Scene 5
 * Part 1 Record of the birth of Atsuhira-shinnō (第一部　敦成親王誕生記)
 * Chapter 2, Kanko 5 (1008) winter (第二章　寛弘五年（一〇〇八）冬の記)
 * Section 2; 二　土御門殿邸への行幸近づく


 * Scene 6 (Tanaka Shinbi)
 * Part 1 Record of the birth of Atsuhira-shinnō (第一部　敦成親王誕生記)
 * Chapter 2, Kanko 5 (1008) winter (第二章　寛弘五年（一〇〇八）冬の記)
 * 四　十月十六日　土御門殿邸行幸の日

Gotoh

 * Scene 1
 * Part 1 Record of the birth of Atsuhira-shinnō (第一部　敦成親王誕生記)
 * Chapter 2, Kanko 5 (1008) winter (第二章　寛弘五年（一〇〇八）冬の記)
 * 八　宰相の君たちと月を眺める


 * Scene 2, 3
 * Part 1 Record of the birth of Atsuhira-shinnō (第一部　敦成親王誕生記)
 * Chapter 2, Kanko 5 (1008) winter (第二章　寛弘五年（一〇〇八）冬の記)
 * Section 9; 11th month, 1st day; 50 day celebration of the birth (九　十一月一日　誕生五十日の祝儀)

Okura

 * Part 1 Record of the birth of Atsuhira-shinnō (第一部　敦成親王誕生記)
 * Chapter 2, Kanko 5 (1008) winter (第二章　寛弘五年（一〇〇八）冬の記)
 * Section 9; 11th month, 1st day; 50 day celebration of the birth (九　十一月一日　誕生五十日の祝儀)

Morikawa family

 * Part 1 Record of the birth of Atsuhira-shinnō (第一部　敦成親王誕生記)
 * Chapter 2, Kanko 5 (1008) winter (第二章　寛弘五年（一〇〇八）冬の記)
 * Section 10; evening banquet on the 50 day celebration (一〇　五十日祝いの夜の酒宴)

Hinohara

 * Scene 1
 * Part 1 Record of the birth of Atsuhira-shinnō (第一部　敦成親王誕生記)
 * Chapter 2, Kanko 5 (1008) winter (第二章　寛弘五年（一〇〇八）冬の記)
 * Section 20; 11th month, 28th day; last day of the bird, special festival (二〇　十一月二十八日下酉の日、臨時の祭)


 * Scene 2
 * Part 1 Record of the birth of Atsuhira-shinnō (第一部　敦成親王誕生記)
 * Chapter 2, Kanko 5 (1008) winter (第二章　寛弘五年（一〇〇八）冬の記)
 * Section 21; 12th month, 29th day; palace visit, thinking about her fist attendance/appearance (二一　十二月二十九日、参内、初出仕時に思いをはせる)


 * Scene 3
 * Part 3; Reminder of he official palace life (第三部　宮仕生活備忘記)
 * Chapter 2; Kanko 5, at the Tsuchimikado residence, Michinaga and waka exchange (第二章　寛弘五年土御門邸にて　道長と和歌贈答)
 * Section 2; going to sleep in the roofed corridor (二　渡殿に寝た夜の事)


 * Scenes 4A,4B, 5, 6
 * Part 3; Reminder of he official palace life (第三部　宮仕生活備忘記)
 * Chapter 3 Kanko 7, 1st month, Itadaki-mochi (=touching the head of children with rice cakes for happiness and prosperity) of imperial children (the prince?) (第三章　寛弘七年正月　若宮たちの御戴餅)
 * Section 3, 1st month, 15th day; 50th day celebration of Atsunaga-shinnō (三　正月十五日　敦良親王御五十日の祝い)

Lead
It's great that work goes into this article, but I think the GA review neglected to mention that the lead is too small for an article of this size because it fails to properly summarize the article. Hekerui (talk) 16:40, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd happily extend the lead, but don't really know what is missing. Please note that a large part of the article consists of the description of individual scenes which in my opinion make little sense to repeat in the lead. Please let me know if you have something particular in mind to be added to the lead. bamse (talk) 23:28, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

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Requested move 20 April 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) ~ Aseleste  (t, e &#124; c, l) 03:44, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Murasaki Shikibu Diary Emaki → Murasaki Shikibu Nikki Emaki – The present name of this article is an odd combination of three romanized Japanese words and an English word. The editor who moved the article to its present name (about 10 years ago) did not explain why he or she was replacing another romanized Japanese word ("Nikki") with its English translation ("Diary"). Such a quarter baked replacement makes little or no sense, and the title does not conform with any Wikipedia naming policy. Other articles on English Wikipedia about individual emakimono are all named using only romanized Japanese to refer to the emakimono, as is most of the other English language literature referring to such emakimono individually. Further, a google search brings up "Murasaki Shikibu Diary Emaki" only about half as often as the far more sensible and appropriate "Murasaki Shikibu Nikki Emaki" (and the former choice of words, when brought up by google, is frequently sourced from this article or republications of it). Bahnfrend (talk) 14:52, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Support per nom's good rationale. Dicklyon (talk) 05:04, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment: Would The Diary of Lady Murasaki Emaki not be the more correct title? Per The Diary of Lady Murasaki. &mdash;Xezbeth (talk) 06:52, 21 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Response The convention, not only on English Wikipedia, but also more generally, appears to be that you use English to refer to the story, and romanized Japanese to refer to the emakimono that presented the story in illustrated form. I don't know how or why that convention arose, but it appears to be of fairly long standing. This article is the only one on English Wikipedia about an individual emakimono that does not conform to the convention. Bahnfrend (talk) 09:00, 21 April 2021 (UTC)