Talk:Murder of Aya Maasarwe

whats the challenge now
Shrike, why exactly are you changing the long-standing version of this article which includes Palestinian and Israeli, and which the majority of the RFC participants supported? Would you like to explain why you are restoring an ARBPIA4 violation? Is there a reason why you feel like your reverting to your preferred version shouldnt require even a token explanation as to why you are changing what has stuck for a year in the article? Why exactly are you ignoring the several reliable sources and past discussions on this? Any explanation at all? Or did you see an ARBPIA4 violation and think hey I can piggyback on that and try to accomplish what I couldnt last year?  nableezy  - 15:37, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

RfC: Should the nationality in the lead be "Arab-Israeli"?
Should the nationality in the lead be "Arab-Israeli" opposed to the present "Palestinian with Israeli citizenship"? The Kingfisher (talk) 05:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Survey (nationality)

 * Support Virtually all of the RSs show "Arab-Israeli" or "Israeli".
 * 1) The family of Aya requested that the media reflect that she was a “Palestinian with Israeli citizenship,” and that should be added to the page, but policy is not dictated by what people want, but rather by the RSs. The Kingfisher (talk) 05:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC) I believe there is enough to challenge this, but at this point, I won't go against the obvious consensus that believes it should stay as is. It is okay with me to end this RfC. The Kingfisher (talk) 15:12, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If this is just going to be brought up at some later date when you feel the numbers might work better for you I would just as soon prefer to have this settled here and now with this RFC so we have a solid, and formal, consensus on the issue.  nableezy  - 18:38, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That never crossed my mind nor would I do that, aside from the glaring fact that it would be against policy to solicit “the numbers”. In any case, you have me stating right here that I won’t bring this up again. I have no problem with this officially being closed with a consensus of “no change”. The Kingfisher (talk) 18:59, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * In that case, per WP:RFCEND, you yourself can remove the rfc tag up above and that'll close the RFC.  nableezy  - 20:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) The family of Aya requested that the media reflect that she was a “Palestinian with Israeli citizenship,” and that should be added to the page, but policy is not dictated by what people want, but rather by the RSs. The Kingfisher (talk) 05:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC) I believe there is enough to challenge this, but at this point, I won't go against the obvious consensus that believes it should stay as is. It is okay with me to end this RfC. The Kingfisher (talk) 15:12, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If this is just going to be brought up at some later date when you feel the numbers might work better for you I would just as soon prefer to have this settled here and now with this RFC so we have a solid, and formal, consensus on the issue.  nableezy  - 18:38, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That never crossed my mind nor would I do that, aside from the glaring fact that it would be against policy to solicit “the numbers”. In any case, you have me stating right here that I won’t bring this up again. I have no problem with this officially being closed with a consensus of “no change”. The Kingfisher (talk) 18:59, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * In that case, per WP:RFCEND, you yourself can remove the rfc tag up above and that'll close the RFC.  nableezy  - 20:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) The family of Aya requested that the media reflect that she was a “Palestinian with Israeli citizenship,” and that should be added to the page, but policy is not dictated by what people want, but rather by the RSs. The Kingfisher (talk) 05:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC) I believe there is enough to challenge this, but at this point, I won't go against the obvious consensus that believes it should stay as is. It is okay with me to end this RfC. The Kingfisher (talk) 15:12, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If this is just going to be brought up at some later date when you feel the numbers might work better for you I would just as soon prefer to have this settled here and now with this RFC so we have a solid, and formal, consensus on the issue.  nableezy  - 18:38, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That never crossed my mind nor would I do that, aside from the glaring fact that it would be against policy to solicit “the numbers”. In any case, you have me stating right here that I won’t bring this up again. I have no problem with this officially being closed with a consensus of “no change”. The Kingfisher (talk) 18:59, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * In that case, per WP:RFCEND, you yourself can remove the rfc tag up above and that'll close the RFC.  nableezy  - 20:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * 1) The family of Aya requested that the media reflect that she was a “Palestinian with Israeli citizenship,” and that should be added to the page, but policy is not dictated by what people want, but rather by the RSs. The Kingfisher (talk) 05:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC) I believe there is enough to challenge this, but at this point, I won't go against the obvious consensus that believes it should stay as is. It is okay with me to end this RfC. The Kingfisher (talk) 15:12, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If this is just going to be brought up at some later date when you feel the numbers might work better for you I would just as soon prefer to have this settled here and now with this RFC so we have a solid, and formal, consensus on the issue.  nableezy  - 18:38, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That never crossed my mind nor would I do that, aside from the glaring fact that it would be against policy to solicit “the numbers”. In any case, you have me stating right here that I won’t bring this up again. I have no problem with this officially being closed with a consensus of “no change”. The Kingfisher (talk) 18:59, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * In that case, per WP:RFCEND, you yourself can remove the rfc tag up above and that'll close the RFC.  nableezy  - 20:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * In that case, per WP:RFCEND, you yourself can remove the rfc tag up above and that'll close the RFC.  nableezy  - 20:20, 10 May 2021 (UTC)


 * No change - it is emphatically not true that virtually all of the RSs show "Arab-Israeli" or "Israeli", in fact most of those same sources shifted to saying "Palestinian" when the family's objections to being called Arab-Israeli were made clear. Examples include BBC (The family have asked the media to spell her name, Aya - to reflect that she was a Palestinian with Israeli citizenship - and not Aiia, which officials had been using, based on her passport.), The Australian (the event is one of several which have been organised in memory of Ms Maasarwe, a Palestinian Arab of Israeli citizenship.), QT (Ms Maasarwe a Palestinian Arab of Israeli citizenship}, 7news (Maasarwe, a Palastinian Arab of Israeli citizenship, had been living in Melbourne only a short time before she was murdered.) Nearly every source adjusted to calling Maasarwe a Palestinian with Israeli citizenship when her family made clear that they reject the label Arab-Israeli or Israeli. The hand waving at the sources that pre-date that objection while ignoring the shift is not exactly honest peculiar, but whatever. The sources support that she was Palestinian, that she and her family considered herself Palestinian, that they reject the label Arab-Israeli, and yet for some reason editors seem to insist that she may not be called what she, her family and reliable sources all call her. More sources available on request, but would rather put them in another section so as not to overwhelm this one. But forcing on a raped and murdered woman a label she and her family rejected strikes me as incredibly disrespectful and distasteful. Also relevant, the newly archived RFC on this same topic from last year found here.  nableezy  - 14:03, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * There are several issues with what you wrote:
 * You were warned here by El_C "to tone down on the aggression and derision" but, following my good faith edits, you attacked me as being dishonest, disrespectful, and distasteful.
 * You seemed to highlight the BBC article that read "Palestinian with Israeli citizenship" as a gotcha while I showed the exact link in my edit and I wrote that it should be used in the article, so I wasn't exactly trying to hide anything.
 * You wrote that "in fact most of those same sources shifted to saying "Palestinian" when the family's objections to being called Arab-Israeli were made clear" yet that is not accurate. All except four of my RS were after the family made the request:
 * BBC | May 27, 2019
 * BBC | October 29 2019
 * ABC | September 30, 2019
 * Haaretz | October 29, 2019
 * Saudi Gazette | October 29, 2019
 * Times of Israel | October 29, 2019
 * The Peninsula | January 23, 2019
 * AP and Israel Hayom | Oct. 29, 2019
 * The Jordan Times | Jan 23, 2019
 * In fact, after BBC first changed to "Palestinian with Israeli citizenship" on January 22, 2019, they subsequently published two more articles (here on May 27, 2019 "21-year-old Israeli Arab student Aya Maasarwe" and here on October 29, 2019 "Arab Israeli student") after the family made the request. I guess that sort of counters your entire argument.
 * While I presented 14 RSs backing "Arab-Israeli" (9 after the family requested the change), you presented only four backing your wording. Per your offer, I request that you present all of your RSs stating "Palestinian with Israeli citizenship".
 * You wrote that the previous "RfC" was last year. Technically it was a "Survey," not an RfC, and it wasn't last year, it was in 2019.
 * The heartfelt emotions of what her family wanted aside, Wikipedia policy is based on RSs. However, if you want to work with me to overturn the label "right-wing" or "anti-Muslim" from pages where the people themselves state that they aren't, I'd be happy to begin that process. The Kingfisher (talk) 18:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I did not attack you at all. I find forcing on a raped and murdered woman an identity that she, per reliable sources, rejected to be distasteful and disrespectful. And no, that was an RFC, an RFC that had its rfc tag removed by a bot as all closed RFCs do. But sure, sources. Australian Jewish News: The 21-year-old Palestinian citizen of Israel who was studying at La Trobe University was raped and murdered on January 16, 2019., NYT: At the vigil, many people wore black at the organizers’ request, and they remained largely silent to respect the wishes of Ms. Maasarwe’s family. They are from Baqa al-Gharbiyye, a predominantly Arab city in the north of Israel, and identify as Palestinian. CNN: The body of Maasarwe, a Palestinian from a predominantly Arab city in Israel, was found early Wednesday in Bundoora, a suburb about 16 kilometers (10 miles) from Melbourne's center. The National: A Palestinian exchange student who was murdered in Australia last week has been buried in her hometown in Israel. 9News: The killing of Ms Maasarwe, a Palestinian Arab of Israeli citizenship who had moved to Australia for study, sent shock waves across Australia, and rallies were organised to show support to her family. Mr Maasarwe wants his daughter's memory and legacy to spread love and hope. Canberra Times: All digital screens at the university will on Thursday display a message in memory of Ms Maasarwe, a Palestinian Arab of Israeli citizenship. Naacoorte Herald: Ms Maasarwe, a Palestinian Arab of Israeli citizenship, was raped and killed near a tram stop in Bundoora on January 16, 2019. BuzzFeed News: Maasarwe, a Palestinian citizen of Israel, was last seen leaving a comedy gig at the Comic's Lounge in North Melbourne on Tuesday night, before catching the 86 tram up to Plenty Road, Bundoora. Her body was found in bushes near the Polaris shopping centre in Bundoora the next morning. How many do you want? Note that MOS:IDENTITY says for what to use for an identity If it is unclear which is most used, use the term that the person or group uses. That is very much Palestinian, not the term that she and her family rejected but what some are trying to force on her.  nableezy  - 18:49, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You said I wasn't being honest. That is a personal attack.
 * You provided six more sources. The NYT source has "Man Is Charged in Killing of Israeli Student in Australia", the CNN source has "Israeli student", and the 9NEWS has "Fellowship named after murdered Arab-Israeli student Aiia Maasarwe". And, Buzzfeed is not a reliable source. There are now 17 RSs with Arab-Israeli and you are up to seven. The Kingfisher (talk) 19:32, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Ive redacted "not exactly honest". Few more for you: Stuff (NZ): Maasarwe, a 21-year-old Palestinian student from Israel, was on her way home from a night out in central Melbourne when she got off the Route 86 tram in Bundoora. New Zealand Herald: Ms Maasarwe a Palestinian Arab of Israeli citizenship, had been living in Melbourne and studying at La Trobe University for about five months as part of an exchange program through Shanghai University. . Buzzfeed News is actually found to be reliable in RSP. And oh by the way, the article says Israeli. Those sources all support Palestinian. You can ignore the quotes from the sources provided showing Palestinian if you like, but anybody who reads them can quickly see they all support "Palestinian". And yes, obviously Israeli as well. As far as I am aware, not one editor has attempted to remove her Israeli citizenship. Also, headlines arent reliable sources, making moot the claim about CNN or NYT calling her an Israeli student. Though, again, nobody is claiming she was not also Israeli. And by my count that is now 13 sources, including the one below that explicitly support "Palestinian".  nableezy  - 19:36, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the redaction.
 * Can you show me the policy about headlines not being RSs? I'm only asking because I did not know and there are several articles that did use headlines as the RS. The Kingfisher (talk) 19:56, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:HEADLINE.  nableezy  - 19:59, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Also, since you listed ABC (Australia) above, ABC: The sister of Aiia Maasarwe, the 21-year-old Palestinian citizen of Israel killed in Melbourne last week, has described the family's loss as "worse than hell" during a vigil held in their home city. and Organisers said domestic violence was a key focus of this year's women's march, but many in the crowd carried signs referencing the alleged murder of Palestinian citizen of Israel Aiia Maasarwe in Melbourne's north earlier this week. Think we even on sources now?  nableezy  - 22:17, 7 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment/Question - Self-identification is important when determining nationality, particularly when nationality is ambiguous. Do we have a good source that says how Aya self-identified? NickCT (talk) 18:07, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The 21-year-old was Palestinian, yet because of the title of her passport, she was described in news reports as Israeli or Arab-Israeli — terms she and her family, like many Palestinians, reject.  nableezy  - 18:09, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, NickCT asked is there is a "good source that says how Aya self-identified?". The source that you provided is based on the family's comments. As far as I know, no source directly backs how Aya self-identified. The Kingfisher (talk) 18:39, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The source says she and her family reject the term. Not that her family just does. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 18:49, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * So you have one source parroting what the family stated. She's dead and there are zero sources that show her beliefs before she died. The Kingfisher (talk) 19:35, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Are you seriously claiming that you know her beliefs more than her family? Or that the source cited does not explicitly say that she herself rejected the terms Israeli-Arab and Israeli? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 19:39, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Obviously I am not claiming to know her beliefs. I'm stating the obvious, however, while moving close to the edge of NOR. RSs showing that her family is speaking for her should be mentioned in the article. However, other than what you provided, it seems that any RSs are based on what the family stated, with not one RS showing that she herself believed one way or the other (before she died). The Kingfisher (talk) 20:05, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The source says she and her family reject the terms. Is there any source saying she called herself Israeli-Arab? Any at all? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 20:11, 7 May 2021 (UTC)


 * No change; I am utterly dismayed that The Kingfisher is trying to do a re-run of the 57 K discussion over 2 years ago; see Talk:Murder of Aya Maasarwe/Archive 2. (Which, btw, The Kingfisher was involved with). She, and her family called her Palestinian. Now, unless we accuse her family of lies(!?), basic decency demands that that is what we should go with, Huldra (talk) 21:07, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No change, based on her description which was provided by her family. Idealigic (talk) 21:59, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No change, based on her family's description. Thepharoah17 (talk) 02:25, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No change. Her family has made it very clear that she identified as an "Arab Palestinian woman with Israeli citizenship". WWGB (talk) 02:42, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No change. Her family explicitly made it clear that she's an Arab Palestinian woman with Israeli citizenship. Sea Ane (talk) 03:09, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry, this is covered by ARBPIA and editors with fewer than 500 edits may not participate in this discussion. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 03:13, 9 May 2021 (UTC)


 * No change As the self-identification is clearly documented in sources, any change seems to be completely unjustified. I'm a little surprised that this has been brought forward to RfC. Boynamedsue (talk) 16:14, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No change per above. I, and I'm sure others in this discussion, are dismayed by the Kingfisher's somewhat disrespectful reasoning for rehashing a previously established consensus. Sean Stephens (talk) 03:45, 20 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why this RfC hasn't been closed yet? I struck out my statement and removed the RfC template. The Kingfisher (talk) 04:14, 20 May 2021 (UTC)


 * No change - Bizarrely, this RfC seems to have not been closed yet after such a long time. I vote the obvious choice... No, we should not change Aya's nationality from "Palestinian with Israeli citizenship" to "Arab-Israeli". Self-identification is the most important factor when describing someone's nationality. The second-most important factor is citizenship, which is very clearly described with the phrase "Israeli citizenship" (it couldn't be any clearer than that). On the other hand, the term "Arab-Israeli" is very unclear as to whether it refers to an Arab person of Israeli origin or an Israeli person of Arab origin, and it also makes no distinction between nationality and citizenship. Jargo Nautilus (talk) 08:17, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It was closed, just not archived. Ill do that now. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 22:30, 12 January 2023 (UTC)