Talk:Murder of Elli Perkins/Archive 1

Re-wording and expansion
I expanded a bit on his short Sea Org career. I also renamed the Death section to Murder, as it seems to more accuratly describe the circumstances. Anynobody 05:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC) Also specified her occupation. Anynobody 06:55, 23 March 2007 (UTC) I gave it a shot, and did a bit more rewording in the interest of WP:NPOV. Anynobody 23:45, 23 March 2007 (UTC) I agree the 48 Hours belongs in the article, but would you consider removing the mention at the end? I found it slightly repetitive being mentioned in two separate places. Anynobody 05:10, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks good, and is backed up by reputable secondary sourced citations... Smee 05:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC).
 * The introduction could use some expansion per WP:LEAD. Smee 07:00, 23 March 2007 (UTC).
 * I added the 48 Hours mention back into the intro, I think it's of note to the reader and a significant event. But we should expand the intro even more with bits of chronology from the article...  Smee 05:05, 24 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Hrm, the intro is supposed to summarize the whole piece, thus someone could quickly read the intro and get the gist of the whole article. If more info were added to expand the intro itself, summarizing the article, the 48 Hours bit would not stand out and seem so repetitive...  Smee 05:16, 24 March 2007 (UTC).

I completely agree with you that the intro should summarize the whole article, but the 48 Hours piece isn't really part of the Perkins history than any story about her is. It is a great secondary source, and it's what keeps a lot of the article from being original research so I'm not trying to discount it in any way. It just strikes me as unnecessary to include a great reference in the intro, closing, and references sections. The simplest way I can sum up my view might sound snide, but please don't take it that way. Essentially the article is about Elli Perkins not Elli Perkins 48 Hours special. That's why I nixed the mention in the opening, the paragraph at the end explained the relevance better IMHO. Anynobody 05:35, 24 March 2007 (UTC) I think I understand what you mean, is this edit closer to what you had in mind? (I don't like concentrating on one source, but if the intro mentions a few I'm ok with that.) Anynobody 06:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, after that long bit I think I see your points, but in general the intro should be expanded. Maybe after it has, we could put a brief mention of the 48 Hours bit back in, so I will remove it for now.  Smee 05:55, 24 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Looks better. There are many many more articles on this from The Buffalo News, but I'd like to find some more from other varied news sources as well...  Suffice it to say that there are plenty more reputable secondary sourced citations to keep individuals busy expanding the article with reputable material...  Smee 06:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC).

I trimmed the intro sentence a tad, it was kind of running on. The term professional glass artist conveys that she didn't just paint for fun but made some money on it too. Anynobody 08:54, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Looks good. Smee 18:00, 24 March 2007 (UTC).

It seems that the Murder section is not accurate compared to the written statement by Jeremy. In his written statement it is clear that he waited until she had hung up the phone to force her into a bedroom, rather than what is listed as him attacking her while she was on the phone. Some of the quotes in this section could be cleaned up as well. Minor things, but they are quotes. For example he said "I decided to do my Mom in instead". This seemes to be an important distinction from what is listed for the vernacular. BrycebeverlinII 18:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

His Statement
I found a copy of the police statement he gave about the murder which was presented at his trial, and included it in the article. I see why they found him not guilty by mental defect, he's still referring to her in the present tense AFTER admitting to killing her and mutilating her corpse. Is this ok to add? If so, should we Wikisource it? (If not, just revert me and explain why not please.) Anynobody 00:46, 25 March 2007 (UTC) I changed the copyright tag, you're correct the previous tag was right about it's status but wrong about the reason. Anynobody 04:58, 25 March 2007 (UTC) I also added two more court documents which explain the outcome, he was not responsible by mental disease or defect. Then committed six months later. I added references to the documents themselves, does anyone think it'd be to much to add them as thumbnails in the article? Anynobody 06:22, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This is okay to add. I will work on clarifying up exactly its status, but it is public domain.  Smee 04:20, 25 March 2007 (UTC).
 * That sounds fine. However, I would say that if you are going to be adding lots of documents which we know were released to the public domain as the result of a criminal proceeding, it would be a better idea to upload them first to Wikimedia Commons, and then reference here, so that they are available to all projects...  Smee 06:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC).

I have some other files I meant to move over to Wikimedia, I wanted to give the article a little time to see if people preferred them or I was also going to suggest Wikisourcing them. Anynobody 07:50, 25 March 2007 (UTC) P.S. These are all I had, so unless I find more we're just talking about the three images. Anynobody 07:51, 25 March 2007 (UTC) I had planned on doing it myself for that exact reason, I prefer to rely on myself for getting things done. The only way to do that of course, is to DIY. Anynobody 08:16, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay sounds good. It's a fun thing to learn, you might want to put them there yourself...  Smee 08:10, 25 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Hehe, sounds good. Smee 08:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC).

Jeremy's birth
Could someone add to the "early life" secton at what point jeremy was born? i figure that since he was at least 24, it was before the family moved to california, but i think either his birth year or his age when he committed the murder would be helpful (if available). thanks! --Someones life 23:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sure it's available because I saw it mentioned in more than one article. I think he was 28 or 29, but I'll double check and add a cited statement about how old he was when the murder occurred. Thank you for pointing that out, Anynobody 00:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

GA on hold
I have reviewed this article according to the GA criteria and have put the article on hold until the following issues are addressed: Most of these should be easy to fix, but you may have to do some more research (unless you already know the answers). The article was interesting to read and appears to present the information fairly. Address the above issues within seven days and I'll pass the article after reviewing the new changes. When you are done or if you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 20:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) In the early life section, it starts with a history of their religious background, then on to glass art, and then the couple is already accepted as "Clear". To make the information flow smoother, explain how the couple got to the point where they were involved with Scientology. Was it just the one course that enabled here to reach this stage, or did more events occur that lead up to "Clear". This could use a little more elaboration. -- ✅  (mentioned this was after courses and "Auditing", for further elaboration we could look for more sources.)  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 01:22, 22 October 2007 (UTC).
 * 2) Combine "Elli's son Jeremy Perkins lived at home, and worked for Don Perkins' contracting company." and "They also had a daughter." Something like "Elli and Don had a daughter and a son named Jeremy Perkins, who lived at home and worked for Don's contracting company. --  ✅  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 01:14, 22 October 2007 (UTC).
 * 3) "At age 24, her son Jeremy began to show changes in behavior which concerned her." It's not good to start a new section with just using pronouns. Mention her name in the first occurrence.
 * 4) Combine "Jeremy didn't succeed with the Sea Org, and returned to his parents within a few months." and "After returning, Jeremy worked with his father." into "Jeremy's treatment didn't succeed with the Sea Org, so he returned to his parents within a few months, rejoining his job at his father's business. --  ✅  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 01:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC).
 * 5) "...so she would not consult a psychiatrist about her son's behaviour." This is an article about an American woman, so spelling should reflect American english; behaviour -> behavior --  ✅  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 01:17, 22 October 2007 (UTC).
 * 6) "Jeremy had also agreed that Brown might be able to help him, and was to leave in the afternoon of March 13, 2003,[5]." Change the comma after 2003 to a period, and remove the period after the inline citation. --  ✅  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 01:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC).
 * 7) For the quote after "According to a statement given to the police, Jeremy Perkins stated:" use "followed by" to separate the long quote from the rest of the text. -- ✅ Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 01:12, 22 October 2007 (UTC).
 * 8) Do you have any other information about her daughter or her husband for the aftermath section? They aren't mentioned again after the first few sections.

GA failed
I have failed the article at this time as the above issues were not addressed within the time frame. If you do correct the above issues and make sure the article meets the requirements of the GA criteria, then consider renominating again. Good luck, and keep improving the article. --Nehrams2020 18:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I have addressed all save one of the points brought up from the GA review. For more background on Elli's daughter and husband, we could look for info in some other sources.  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 01:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC).
 * ✅ - Please see above for the points addressed after the previous GA review. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 07:11, 27 October 2007 (UTC).

Clarification
Clarification on this, just pointing out that this edit summary is inappropriate. WP:AGF, and explain your reasoning for wanting a change on the talk page, but I was simply pointing out Scientology views on psychiatry, as relevant to that particular sentence. No biggie. Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 04:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC).

GA review by Mmoyer
Sorry, but I must fail this article for the following issues:


 * The lead paragraph does not establish the context for the article, specifically, the fact that she was killed by her schizophrenic son. (Fails GA criteria 1.b - lead section) This fact is mentioned in the 2nd paragraph, but needs to be promoted to the first.  ✅ - This one was not too hard to fix, but I will try to expand the lead, and the rest of the article, hopefully wth more sources.  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 04:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC).
 * The Perkins history with Scientology needs its own section, since it forms the underlying basis for denying their son mental health treatment, ultimately leading to her death (Fails GA criteria 3 - Broad coverage)
 * Fair use image of Elli Perkins does not meet low resolution criteria - such images are to be no larger than 300 px. This image is 300x400 (Fails GA criteria 6 - images)

Given that this is the second GA failure, I would recommend a peer review prior to another attempt at GA. I wish you the best as you continue to improve this article. Please leave a note on my talk page if I can be of further assistance. Have a wiki day! Mmoyer 02:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No worries. Thanks for the helpful comments, I will make the changes and we will go for a WP:PR, before another WP:GAC.  Cheers.  Curt Wilhelm VonSavage 03:24, 29 October 2007 (UTC).

Assessment comment
Substituted at 14:39, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Date of birth
i was looking through the SSDI and found an entry for a Kathleen B Perkins (no hits under the name Present) who was born on 13 Apr 1949 and died on 13 Mar 2003. However, the last address of record is Tiptonville, TN, not New York where the murder took place. Can anyone confirm/deny the name and birth date? hbdragon88 (talk) 04:19, 16 November 2010 (UTC)