Talk:Murder of Julie Berman

Requested move 2 February 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) feminist (talk) 14:05, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

Julie Berman (transgender activist) → Murder of Julie Berman – In the above linked AFD there was support for a rename to "Murder of Julie Berman" on the grounds that the sourcing available on the topic is more about the event (the murder) and less about the individual. There wasn't unanimous support so a proper move discussion is necessary; myself I have no opinion. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:15, 2 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Support and speedy close, but the issue of title is likely very moot. This article fails notability guidelines and should be nominated for deletion. I read through all of the sources. There are no sources from before the murder, indicating lack of notability of the person, so the current title is inappropriate. The murder event has not been directly connected to Berman's activism or trans status and, while tragic, the coverage is WP:RUNOFTHEMILL for a violent crime of this sort. I think the creator of the page needs to review WP:NOTMEMORIAL. The AfD result was flawed and should be reevaluated. -- Netoholic @ 22:49, 2 February 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Notability Tag
The article passed a recent AFD, indicating that notability was established, by consensus. The notability tag is therefore not needed and should be removed. Affied (talk) 16:06, 21 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Passing an AFD is not an everlasting reprieve from improving articles. This event has not gotten *any* news coverage since about the two days after the murder when it was reported only in regional news or interest-based websites.  This is an indication of fleeting news items - not long-lasting, notable topics. The purpose of the notice is to inform of this, and remind editors that more needs to be done.  If its not, then the lack of additional coverage will likely be used as evidence that the topic should be merged or deleted. -- Netoholic @ 20:06, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * This comment is not true, there is RS coverage into January and February. According to WP:LASTING, not enough time has passed to determine lasting coverage - we will need to re-evaluate in a few months. In addition the policy clearly states that "This does not, however, mean recent events with unproven lasting effect are automatically non-notable." I would very much like to see sources for most of your claims - which appear to be opinions - and against the consensus determined in the AFD. Affied (talk) 20:57, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I've fixed the refs to display the publication dates. Most of them (10) are from a single news day Dec 27, with 1 on the 26th and 2 on the 28th. There is 1 from Dec 22. The Jan source is primary account (written by friend of the victim) - debatable as "RS". The Feb one is simply a video post and minor blurb.  The reach of sources is limited mainly to Toronto, and to LGBT-based interest sites.  If indeed (and I think its a big stretch) that "not enough time has passed to determine lasting coverage" ... then by the same token there had been "not enough time" when this article was first created. It was created prematurely. Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS and WP:NOTMEMORIAL. After nearly 2 months since the story first broke, almost nothing has emerged demonstrating lasting notability.  Apart from another fleeting news item about the eventual conviction for the crime, we can anticipate that this article can go no further. -- Netoholic @ 21:07, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * These are again all of your opinions with not a single policy actually cited. Please point to a specific policy that has not been met - not just your opinion. WP:NOTNEWS and WP:NOTMEMORIAL were already deemed to be passed in the AFD (and note you did not specify which part of the policy it didn't meet - just your opinion). The source that you deem as not an RS is also your opinion. 2 months is not the determining factor for a lasting coverage - another opinion. Limited to Toronto and LGBT is not true or based in facts. Affied (talk) 21:17, 22 February 2020 (UTC)