Talk:Murder of Marwa El-Sherbini/GA2

GA Review
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Reviewer: Matthewedwards : Chat  22:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I'll be reviewing this article against the Good article criteria. I have already checked it against the "quick fail criteria", and it passes that, so I will now begin the "review proper". This may take me up to two days, so please be patient :)

I will be back soon with a complete review. All the best, Matthewedwards : Chat  22:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC)


 * GA review (see here for criteria)

It is reasonably well written

 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * There's no need to bold the article name in the lede, because the article is about the murder, not the person. Additionally, the article name, "The murder of Marwar El-Sherbini", is purely descriptive wouldn't need to be bolded if that was used in the Lede.✅ Mootros (talk) 19:15, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't WP:OVERLINK common terms such as Egypt, German, Germany, Egyptian, Russia, Iran, Pakistan, Arab, Muslim, Jewish ✅ Mootros (talk) 19:21, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Other noteworthy characteristics of this murder were that the perpetrator was motivated by hostility and prejudice against the victim's race and religion and committed the criminal offence in front of a child, while also attacking the victim's husband who tried to intervene." is a very long and difficult sentence. Can it be split into two instead? ✅ Mootros (talk) 19:31, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Especially in Egypt there was considerable public and media attention on the hate crime aspect of the offence." Is not a complete sentence ✅ Mootros (talk) 19:31, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "This stood in sharp contrast to media reports in Germany, where according to common media practice there was no mentioning of the race and nationality of the victim. El-Sherbini was merely referred to as a women who was killed in court while having acted as a witness." These two sentences are directly related to the same thing, and should probably be joined with a semi-colon. ✅ Mootros (talk) 19:31, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikilink mass media ✅ Mootros (talk) 19:31, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "In 2008, the couple and their two-year-old son moved to Dresden, where her husband, a lecturer" --- the sentence starts with the couple, not El-Sherbini, so instead of her husband, you should say Ali-Okaz ✅ Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Wikilink "epithets" ✅ Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "After formally objecting and refusing to pay the fine,[1] During the trial Wiens claimed mitigating circumstances for the act of insulting El-Sherbini, suggesting that "people like her" were not really human beings and therefore incapable of being insulted." Are these two different sentences? During has a captial D, but the first part After formally objecting and refusing to pay the fine, does not make a full sentence. Fixing is not as simple as making During into during as the sentence still will not make grammatical sense ✅ Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC) Added lost clause.
 * "Alex Wiens as the defendant," we know his name now, so you can refer to him from hereon-in as just "Wiens". ✅ Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "a panel of one professional and two lay judges, the prosecutor, Alex Wiens as the defendant, his court-appointed defence counsel, El-Sherbini as witness for the prosecution, and her husband and son as observers." would be better using semi-colons rather than commas as separators
 * I'd rather not. Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "(this question was disallowed by the judge)." Can this be written into normal text without parentheses? ✅ Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "done with great force and so sudden that the victim sustained no defensive injuries." -- Done with is not suitable WP:TONE for an encyclopedic entry. ✅ Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Is "(time-stamped by the judge having raised a security alarm)." necessary? Personally, I don't think it is, but there should be no reason for it to be in parentheses ✅ Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Marwa El-Sherbini died at the scene, at 11:07,[1] succumbing to her injuries.[20][24] Alex Wiens was arrested on the scene." -- uses on the scene twice in quick succession. Can one instance be recast to avoid the repetition? ✅ Mootros (talk) 20:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Alex Wiens[note 1], who had been born in Perm, Russia," --- "who had been" makes the sentence sound like that fact has changed. "Alex Wiens[note 1], born in Perm, Russia," will suffice
 * Can't find this. Mootros (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It appears to have been fixed already. Matthewedwards : Chat  00:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "asking police officers to kill him instead." -- but asked would work better than the oddly tensed asking ✅ with "while" construction Mootros (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "The fact that the murder victim's husband was wounded by a shot fired by a police officer was widely reported in the media at the time. It was cited as indicative of racism by the victim's brother." -- This is a parastub and should be expanded or merged. Does it mean the victim's brother was racist, or the brother accused the cops of being racist? It's currently unclear ✅ Mootros (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Furthermore" is being used as a conjunction, but you can't use a conjunction to begin a sentence in English. Join the two sentences with a semi colon ✅ differently Mootros (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure the average reader will understand what "perfidiousness". Can it be wikilinked to the Wiktionary entry perfidiousness ✅ Mootros (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Why "the upper regional court (Oberlandesgericht)." and not "the upper regional court."? ✅ Mootros (talk) 20:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "However, as the defendant was declared in 1999" -- use a semi colon rather than having the word "However" begin a sentence, as it's the same rule as with "Furthermore".
 * "However, as the defendant was declared in 1999 (following a medical examination for mandatory military service in the Russian armed forces) to suffer from severe and chronic psychotic conditions, prosecutors requested relevant information from the Russian authorities." --- try not to have stuff in parentheses.. Suggest recasting the sentence as "however, as the defendant was declared in 1999 to suffer from severe and chronic psychotic conditions during a medical examination for mandatory military service in the |Russian armed forces, prosecutors requested relevant information from the Russian authorities. ✅ Mootros (talk) 22:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "coming from" -- can you think of something more appropriate in WP:TONE? ✅ Mootros (talk) 21:02, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Witnesses in the second week of the trial included people present in the original confrontation on the playground. and police officers responding to the attack on 21 August 2008." -- two sentences, joined with an "and" needs addressing ✅ Mootros (talk) 21:02, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Wiens injured himself in a fit of rage," can you describe how? ✅ Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "El-Sherbini was in the initial media reports only referred to as "a 32[sic]-year old witness"." -- the sentences is oddly structured. Consider, In the inital media reports, El-Shervini was referred to as "a 32[sic]-year old witness". The word "only" should be removed. ✅ Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There's no need to OVERLINK Muslim, Jewish, etc ✅ Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The paragraphs in the Public commemoration section are short and stubby. Can they be merged at all? That para-sentence that starts the section especially needs attention ✅ Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "For example" is unnecessary. A reader doesn't expect every single anti-German sentiment to be listed. They expect examples, so just tell us the examples.
 * can't find this. Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * It appears to have been fixed already. Matthewedwards : Chat  00:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Aljazera is a television network, and per WP:ITALICS should not be italicised. ✅ Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Why are there two sections for International reactions and Media and public reaction to murder trial? Aren't they basically the same? The sections would have more power if they were just one merged section. ✅ Mootros (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

It is factually accurate and verifiable

 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * In-line references should all be placed immediately after punctuation, not before
 * Checked for reasonable use. Should be fine now in light of discussion below. Mootros (talk) 11:31, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ref 13 is from Die Welt, and uses the webcitation archive; however, it says the original is at topnews.de, which is not Die Welt's website
 * ✅ Mootros (talk) 11:29, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Unless the German language references have English language translations in their titles, do not add them yourself, as this could be seen as WP:SYNTH or WP:OR
 * Not sure I fully understand what you're trying to say. All tiles in square parenthesis are translations that I or user:Tshild have provided. In some cases, translations were agreed after discussions with other editors. There are not published translations. WP:SYNTH clearly states the following: "Where English translations of non-English material are unavailable, Wikipedia editors may supply their own, with the original provided alongside or in a footnote. If such translations are challenged, editors should cooperate in producing one they can agree on. Copyright restrictions permitting, translations published by reliable sources are preferred over those provided by Wikipedia editors."
 * Okay. I must have completely missed that! That's fine then -- I have no issue with this any more. Matthewedwards : Chat  00:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a reference for Marwa's father's name, but none for her mother's. (Ref 14 mentions her mother's name)
 * All I can see is the word "father" in a title. Mootros (talk) 21:58, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Ref 14, http://www.sz-online.de/nachrichten/artikel.asp?id=2209078 gives El-Sherbini's mother's name. I added it in to the article. Matthewedwards : Chat  00:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. See what you mean. Mootros (talk) 11:28, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Wiens was held on remand on suspicion of murder of Marwa El-Sherbini[16] and attempted murder of Elwi Ali Okaz.[35] " --- don't place refs mid-sentence. They should appear after punctuation: "Wiens was held on remand on suspicion of murder of Marwa El-Sherbini and attempted murder of Elwi Ali Okaz.[16][35]" There are other instances throughout the article
 * I have reservations here. We have placed references not "mid-sentence", but (sometimes) at the end of a clause after a comma or before an "and". If there is a rule that they should be merely at the end of a sentences, it should IMHO be overruled, because of the general principle of verifiability. It would be a "great lost" having several rerferences at the end of longer sentences that reference different facts within one sentences, without being able to instantly see what is refered by which source. Of course, all this should be done within reason. What do you think? Mootros (talk) 22:34, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no rule that they should be placed only at the end of sentences. There are two pages, WP:REFPUNC and WP:CITE that say they can go in the middle of the sentence, but that usually they follow any punctuation (except dashes). When they do appear mid sentence, they should only be for material that is likely to be challenged: "An inline citation should appear next to the material it supports. If the material is particularly contentious, the citation may be added within a sentence, but adding it to the end of the sentence or paragraph is usually sufficient." So facts such as El-Sherbini's father's name, and that Wiens was held on remand on suspicion of murdering El-Sherbini are not particularly contentious, and I wouldn't find it odd to have those references at the end of the sentence. We can put it down to editor's personal choice, and if this is how the article's editors preference, then I'm fine for it being that way. Matthewedwards : Chat  00:38, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "On the beginning of the third day of the trial, Wiens injured himself in a fit of rage,[58][64] but was judged fit to stand trial after medical examination." -- can you find a reference for the second half of the sentence? ✅ Mootros (talk) 21:58, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "El-Sherbini was in the initial media reports only referred to as "a 32[sic]-year old witness"." a direct quote requires a reference immediately following it.
 * ✅ Mootros (talk) 11:34, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "...expressed condolence to the "young woman and her family"." -- this too needs a reference for the quote
 * ✅ Mootros (talk) 11:34, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * "Although there was no official statement from the government in Pakistan,[87] Pakistani media reported the killing." Reference an article or two as examples.
 * ✅ Removed entire sentence and clarified heading. Mootros (talk) 11:50, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

It is broad in its coverage

 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * yes

It follows the neutral point of view policy

 * Fair representation without bias:
 * Why does the article keep saying "the murder victim"? It seems like a newspaper article, in the way that it's trying to elicit emotion, and that I should be feeling something. Why can't it just say El-Sherbini? ✅ Yes the word "victim" by far outnumbered the word "perpetrator" I've removed infactal or questionable useage, as well as some rather clumsy constructions such as "murder victim's husband". I've left it in where there are actual contextual links to crime or legal  issues. Mootros (talk) 22:23, 6 April 2010 (UTC)


 * "At the time of her death El-Sherbini was three months pregnant and looking forward to the birth to her second child in Germany." We don't know that she was looking forward to it, but even if it does say that in the reference, it's not for us to put an emotional spin on her life and mention that part. "At the time of her death El-Sherbini was three months pregnant with her second child." would be fine ✅ I've removed the emotional undertone by rewording this to "At the time of her death El-Sherbini was three months pregnant and expecting her second child to be born in Germany." Previously there were questions precisly on this matter: whether the pregancy became known through an autopsy. Mootros (talk) 22:23, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

It is stable.

 * No edit wars, etc.:
 * no issues here
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free  images have fair use rationales):  b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * The only image in the article is licensed correctly, and the caption is fine

Overall:

 * There are many issues with prose and sourcing that need addressing before this can become listed as a WP:GA. I am putting the nomination on hold for 7 days for the article's editors to address the issues raised. Good luck!
 * Pass/Fail:

The article is coming along nicely. Well done to Mootros and any other editors who have helped so far. Matthewedwards : Chat  00:29, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank kindly Matthewedwards for this review and your detailed comments. You restored my faith into formal writing. :) Mootros (talk) 12:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)


 * You're most welcome. It's been a pleasure to review the article. I noticed that quite a lot of additional material has been added since I first conducted the review, but I think it's almost ready to be promoted to WP:GA. There are still a few things stopping me at the moment, though:


 * As the Lede section is used to introduce the article, it does not need to contain references unless there is something in there that isn't mentioned later in the rest of the article. (WP:LEDE) ✅Mootros (talk) 10:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Some references do not have accessdates, which will need to be put in. (Refs [72] [74], [77], [78], [85]) ✅Mootros (talk) 10:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Refs [67], [68], [70], [87] are raw URLs and needs formatting ✅Mootros (talk) 10:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * The line "The fact that the murder victim's husband was wounded by a shot fired by a police officer was widely reported in the media at the time. It was cited as indicative of racism in Germany by the victim's brother." is confusing. Who is the victim's brother here? El Sherbini's brother, or Okaz's brother? Please clarify by using the names ✅Mootros (talk) 10:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * All raw external links should be made into references. There's one in Note 1, one in the Response by Muslim and Jewish bodies section ✅Mootros (talk) 10:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC) For Note 1 see blelow.
 * The references in Note 2 needs tags
 * I've tried this, but citations in notes appears to be not possible: technical limitation.
 * If possible, try to find references for the other Notes, too
 * I've added some Interlanguage links and a wiki link. Mootros (talk) 10:42, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

That should be all. Best of luck, Matthewedwards : Chat  08:28, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

OK, following the latest round of edits, I'm happy to say that I think this article fully meets WP:GA?, and so I will be listing it at WP:GA. Very well done to Mootros and all the other editors of this article. Matthewedwards : Chat  21:26, 11 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Pass/Fail: