Talk:Murder of Milly Dowler

"Unclothed" or "Naked" rather than "Nude"
I changed the word "nude" to "unclothed": this was reverted by User: David_J_Johnson. I was looking for a neutral term - other than nude - and perhaps if "unclothed" seems prissy, perhaps "naked" might have been better. In my opinion (and in others', too) there is a significant difference between "naked" and "nude": see, for example, Kenneth Clarke's book "The Nude". The opening words are

The English language, with its elaborate generosity, distinguishes between the naked and the nude. To be naked is to be deprived of our clothes, and the word implies some of the embarrassment most of us feel in that condition. The word "nude," on the other hand, carries, in educated usage, no uncomfortable overtone. The vague image it projects into the mind is not o f a huddled and defenseless body, but of a balanced, prosperous, and confident body: the body re-formed. In fact, the word was forced into our vocabulary by critics of the early eighteenth century to persuade the artless islanders [of the UK] that, in countries where painting and sculpture were practiced and valued as they should be, the naked human body was the central subject of art.

Whatever else one might think about the death of Milly Dowler, it is unlikely that one might be able to say that she was "comfortable" without her clothes. This dichotomy of Clarke's has been challenged, but the challenges have not been in the context of victims of violence. Nudity (to Clarke and to me) is usually a voluntary state, and to me it seems demeaning to the victim of a murder to use the word - I fully accept I may be old-fashioned. In a spirit of enquiry, I checked through Val McDermid's excellent murder stories: the author never uses the word "nude" to refer to a dead body. She uses "naked" every time. So I will change the word again, to "naked", and hope that David Johnson will comment here to explain his own preference, before reverting a second time. Thomas Peardew (talk) 19:22, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I tend to you agree with your reasoning but generally it's better to try to establish a consensus before making a change to a long-established phrase or any content within an article. Let's see how it goes.  The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 19:33, 3 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, RM, and thanks. But I think making alterations only where there's a prior consensus would be a bit restrictive, though. And a quick scan through David_J_Johnson's contributions to this article (25 of them) shows all of them to be either reverts or undoes: none of the text was contributed by him, and I would have thought that this alteration was pretty uncontroversial. Wiki text isn't written in stone. Thomas Peardew (talk) 19:44, 3 February 2020 (UTC)


 * I agree with The Rambling Man's comments above. The prior change to my revert and subsequent comments do seem rather arrogant and devoid of consensus for altering the long-standing text. That is not "a bit restrictive", but the way the encyclopedia works. Also, I would be grateful to Thomas Peardew not to assume that I would revert for a "second time". I do not edit war.  However, I am happy with a change to "naked" and just hope that the editor learns from this. Regards to all, David J Johnson (talk) 20:55, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
 * What exactly should Thomas Peardew be learning from this? Can you clarify that?   In what possible way is changing "nude" to unclothed" an arrogant act?  I have to sit on the other side of the fence and think that Peardew's change was perfectly justified, uncontroversial and needed no prior consensus.  When it was reverted they did the exact right thing and brought it up on the talk page.  Their behaviour has been exemplary and the very definition of WP:BRD.  As they point out, given David J Johnson's behaviour of constant reversion with - let's be honest - inadequate edit summaries (an edit summary of "Correct previous" is utterly unhelpful at best ambiguous, and at worst misleading as it implies that the change was incorrect, when it clearly wasn't) it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that they would revert the change should it have been made again.  I agree that there is some arrogance here, but I'm not sure it's from Thomas Peardew.  Chaheel Riens (talk) 21:21, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree that naked is more precise than nude.AmeliaSz10 (talk) 17:48, 6 February 2020 (UTC)