Talk:Murders of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner/Archive 1

Untitled
should have a reference to reagan's thing --

Shouldn´t this be moved back to the original title with caps? just like American Civil Rights Movement? Gryffindor 10:58, August 4, 2005 (UTC)


 * No, it should not be in caps. Jonathunder 22:10, 2005 August 4 (UTC)
 * Not per wikipedia's odd interpretations of the English language. Gateman1997 22:26, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

use of 1870 Force Act?
A web page at http://faculty.smu.edu/dsimon/Change-CivRts2.html says:
 * The Justice Department, reasoning that those responsible would be acquitted by an all white jury, charged nineteen individuals (under an 1870 federal law) with conspiring to deprive the three of their civil rights. The charges were lodged against Sheriff Lawrence Rainey, Deputy Sheriff Cecil Price and 17 other men.

Is this referring to the 1870 Force Act? I'm saying so in the Ku Klux Klan article, but I was wondering if anyone could verify that. TIA!--Bcrowell 17:53, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Movies?
According to the page for "Mississippi Burning", the movie was released in 1988. Yet this page clearly says it was released in 1994. I just thought I should point out this contradiction. User:Andi-Andi-


 * I concur and so does IMDB. Changed. --87.123.219.13 11:11, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Indoctrination
Seems slightly POV to say indoctrination at Miami University, perhaps seminars or classes would be NPOV.

Loucards 20:17, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Links to Deputy Sheriff Cecil Price and Sheriff Lawrence Rainey
There are two very good wiki pages on Cecil Price and Lawrence A. Rainey that have now been linked. Rcsfca 06:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Question Re: Philadelphia Mississippi/Missouri
I'm doing some online research for a story and noticed that this article says that Ronald Reagan announced his presidential bid in Philadelphia, Missouri. I thought Regan's announcement was made in Philadelphia, Missippi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.195.248.46 (talk) 16:02, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, you're correct, Reagan announced his candidacy at the Neshoba County fair in Mississippi, not Missouri. But someone must have deleted that whole topic because there is no mention of Reagan at all in the article now. Brucehartford (talk) 16:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Mickey Jewish here, but not elsewhere in Wiki
In this article, Michael "Mickey" Schwerner is flat-out said to be Jewish. Ok, fine. So why is he "of Jewish heritage" in his own page? Which is it, & what is the source for it? FlaviaR (talk) 17:42, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

"Lynching" vs "Murder"
I restored the use of "Lynching" rather than "Murder" in the title and body of the first section because "lynching" is the more accurate term. The Wikipedia definition of "Lynching" reads in part: "... defined by some codes of law as 'Any act of violence inflicted by a mob upon the body of another person which results in the death of the person,' with a 'mob' being defined as 'the assemblage of two or more persons, without color or authority of law, for the premeditated purpose and with the premeditated intent of committing an act of violence upon the person of another.'"

That is certainly a more accurate description of what happened than the more generic term "murder." The Klansmen were a mob as defined by law, their killing was premeditated, and outside the legal system (even though law officers were involved). "Lynching" is also a more appropriate term than the generic "murder" because of the long history of lynching in the South as a means of maintaining white supremacy over blacks. Chaney, Schwerner, and Goodman were lynched because of their civil rights activity—a direct continuation of that pattern of race-based lynching as a means of suppression of black rights. Brucehartford (talk) 17:58, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Suggested source
I didn't take the time to read this entire article, but I saw that this was not in the reflist. This news article has detailed information about the murders, and I think it should be included. --Dudemanfellabra (talk) 08:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

The targeting
The article does not discuss targeting at all.

Goodman is said to be the young man who had just arrived. Wrong place, wrong time. The killers had no direct issue with him.

Schwerner was the very effective local organizer — they hate him — and he's the principal target.

They hate Chaney too, but I do not recall at this point whether the plan was to "get Schwerner" or to "get Schwerner and Chaney".

But the killings are not random in any way — Schwerner was viewed as a threat — and the article should say so.

Varlaam (talk) 06:53, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * The article now notes that the KKK had in fact issued an order to kill Mickey Schwerner.--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:41, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

'unreferenced' section
I've removed the 'unreferenced' tag from the 'Lynching' section. The section how has 10 inline citations from six different sources. Further improvement would be good; however I feel the tag is unnecessary for now. I've also removed a detail about the workers having visited a black barber before driving to Neshoba county; I can't find mention of that in any sources.--Johnsemlak (talk) 05:07, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

This article stinks
This article stinks. Why can't we have a chronology of events. It doesn't even say when the bodies were discovered. Lousy!Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 22:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Chronology added; where the bodies discovered added, among other things Rob (talk) 14:48, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Ungrammatical Word Salad
"Inside Posey’s Chevrolet carried Sharpe, Townsend, and Roberts." What does that mean? Should it read, "Posey’s Chevrolet carried Sharpe, Townsend, and Roberts"? (EnochBethany (talk) 16:59, 17 January 2013 (UTC))

Major Revision
I'm planning to do a major revision (for the next year or so) to this article in anticipation for the 50th anniversary. Btw, I live, and I'm from Neshoba County, MS. Rob (talk)
 * Updated the introduction and background section, looking for citiations for those sections. Rob (talk) 15:46, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * add a two new sections along with photos; gonna let it set awhile for others to react to the changes. Rob (talk) 15:34, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * added a few new sections along with new images that are period correct. Rob (talk) 15:42, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * added some info about Burrage since he passed away recently. Rob (talk) 18:33, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Terrorism
This was an act of violence motivated by white supremacist ideology. How is that not an act of terrorism?--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 01:13, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I could go either way on this one. My first inclination when you added the category was to revert for much the same reason given by User:Magnolia677. And because I think there's often too much of a tendency to recast historical events using anachronistic modern definitions. But I reconsidered. This wasn't just one of a 150-year series of acts of racial hatred like killing some kid because he looked at a white woman wrong. There was a definite political motive here, letting all those New York Jews know they weren't safe coming down to Mississippi agitating for Nigras to vote. The murders involved a designated terrorist group (now, if not then), the Klan. And similarly categorized articles include the Birmingham church bombing and the Assassination of George Tiller. So there seems to be a pretty good case for inclusion in the category. Fat&#38;Happy (talk) 03:58, 16 February 2014 (UTC)


 * There was certainly some planning to this terrible crime, and in many ways it had the hallmarks of "terrorism", much like the assassination of Julius Caesar. But that word, "terrorism", is a new one.  The first time I heard it used was in the 1970s to describe the PLO.  It is commonly used to describe modern events.  Take a look at the article on homegrown terrorism...there isn't a date earlier than 2001.  I'm not saying this crime wasn't meant to terrorize, but that word just wasn't used to describe these crimes.  Unless someone is able to provide some reliable sources that describe these killings as "terrorism", then using that world is misleading, inventive, and POV.  Magnolia677 (talk) 05:28, 16 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't classifying this as "terrorism" be original research? No original researchJacona (talk) 12:59, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

I believe it is listed under Mickolaus' chronology of terrorist incidents.--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 16:52, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

On another note, most of there other events listed as "terrorist" from the same period are related to the Arab-Israeli conflict -- which gives a very biased impression of what "terrorism" is, because events in other contexts that bore all the requisite hallmarks of terrorism were happening at the same time.--Bellerophon5685 (talk) 16:55, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Jordan
The first use of the name "jordan" other than in a picture caption is by last name only, as a man who apparently shot another man in the abdomen. ?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.49.196.193 (talk) 06:31, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

The Claim That These Murders Advanced Both The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 Is Likely Just Folklore
Illinois Senator Everett Dirksen's version of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which was the version that became law, passed the Senate two days before these murders took place. It's also noted that LBJ desired the Fourth of July week as the proper time for the bill to signed into law. The bill passed in the House of Representatives on July 2 and was signed into law that very same evening. The Voting Rights Act of 1965 was also galvanized by the Selma to Montgomery marches and did not pass for months until an agreement was reached to give the federal government authority to sue against state poll taxes rather than enforce restrictions against state poll taxes. LBJ also gave no mention of the murders when he signed either of those two laws as well, or when he proposed the Voting Rights Act to Congress following the events in Selma.184.97.195.81 (talk) 19:05, 3 November 2014 (UTC)


 * You make a good point that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 passed the Senate two days before the three were lynched on June 21st. The Senate, with its southern filibuster, was the crucial hurdle that determined whether or not any race-related civil rights legislation could be passed and if so, how strong that legislation would be. Once the bill passed the Senate, adoption by the House was a formality. However, it's fair to say that the widespread and long-standing pattern of police repression against black voters and voting rights activists along with white-racist violence -- including multiple murders -- that took place before June 21, 1964 did influence passage of the Act. That was obvious from the testimony at the legislative hearings, the political struggle over voting-rights language in Title I and VI in the bill, and the arguments put forward in the floor debates. Brucehartford (talk) 06:22, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Proposed move to 'Freedom Summer Murders'
A good case can be made for moving this article from its current (only) descriptive title ('Mississippi civil rights workers' murders') to the more proper-noun name 'Freedom Summer Murders', a name which seems to have appeared in recent years, but certainly well after the creation of this article. This term has been used as the name of a 2014 book, is the title of a Mississippi State Historical marker documenting the incident, and appears in other sources. As I suspect it could use some discussion or at least a bit of confirmation and agreement, I'll put this here. Skybunny (talk) 23:56, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 15 April 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. No prejudice against a new RM discussing either of the IP's alternatives. Jenks24 (talk) 17:51, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Mississippi civil rights workers' murders → Murders of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner – The article violates WP:PRECISION because there were multiple people murdered in Mississippi during the Civil Rights Movement that were civil rights workers. Please see Civil Rights Martyrs from the Civil Rights Memorial. Mitchumch (talk) 22:29, 15 April 2016 (UTC) --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 00:02, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Oppose – While I agree it's somewhat ambiguous, this term has come to be associated with those three persons, in the majority of books, if my quick survey is not misleading me. If I'm wrong, show me.  Dicklyon (talk) 22:59, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Strong Oppose these people are not mononymic -- 70.51.46.195 (talk) 05:20, 23 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Rename to Mississippi Burning (event) per the article, that's the murder and investigation; (or use Freedom Summer Murders -- the event has a name of its own, so we don't need to use a descriptive title) -- 70.51.46.195 (talk) 05:22, 23 April 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Major POV problems removed
I believe I have removed the parts that were blatantly POV. Yes, the people who committed these crimes were the scum of the earth, but the previous version was just a polemic against racism.

REACTION
The Article states that outrage over the disappearances enabled President Johnson to use his influence to obtain passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. This does not make sense. The legislation had been introduced as H.R. 7152 on June 20, 1963. After President Kennedy's assassination, President Johnson did use his influence to push it along as forcefully as possible, but the results were almost fully achieved before the civil rights workers were murdered. A filibuster in the Senate was broken in mid-June, cloture occurred on Friday, June 19th, and the senate approved the legislation on June 20th, by a vote of 73-27, one year to the day after its introduction. This was still a day before the disappearances. The bill went back to the House of Representatives to accept the Senate amendments. It quickly went through the Rules Committee, being voted out on June 30th. On July 2nd, the House approved the amendments, and President Johnson signed the legislation later that same day.

Requested move 28 May 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) —&thinsp;JJMC89&thinsp; (T·C) 02:25, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Mississippi civil rights workers' murders → Murders of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner – The article violates WP:PRECISION because there were multiple people murdered in Mississippi during the Civil Rights Movement that were civil rights workers. Please see Civil Rights Martyrs from the Civil Rights Memorial. Secondly, the combined variations of the proposed title occur with greater frequency in Google Books than the current title.

Current title
 * Mississippi civil rights workers' murders" - 726 hits

Murders (plural)
 * "Murders of Schwerner, Chaney, and Goodman" - 204 hits
 * "Murders of Schwerner, Goodman, and Chaney" - 176 hits
 * "Murders of Chaney, Schwerner, and Goodman" - 184 hits
 * "Murders of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner" - 598 hits
 * "Murders of Goodman, Schwerner, and Chaney" - 199 hits
 * "Murders of Goodman, Chaney, and Schwerner" - 78 hits

Murder (singular)
 * "Murder of Schwerner, Chaney, and Goodman" - 63 hits
 * "Murder of Schwerner, Goodman, and Chaney" - 42 hits
 * "Murder of Chaney, Schwerner, and Goodman" - 357 hits
 * "Murder of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner" - 104 hits
 * "Murder of Goodman, Schwerner, and Chaney" - 155 hits
 * "Murder of Goodman, Chaney, and Schwerner" - 106 hits

The combined total for all the variations is 2266 hits. The proposed title "Murders of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner" is the most common among all the variations at 598 hits. Mitchumch (talk) 09:27, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support, per well researched nomination, and Mitchumch is correct that other people were murdered in Mississippi during the CRM (Medgar Evers, etc.), so per accuracy. Randy Kryn 14:18, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support per nom and Randy Kryn. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 15:32, 28 May 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lott
"For much of the next four decades, no legal action was taken on the murders. In 1989, on the 25th anniversary of the murders, the U.S. Congress passed a non-binding resolution honoring the three men; Senator Trent Lott and the rest of the Mississippi delegation refused to vote for it.[41]"

Since Lott has been out of congress for years at this point, wouldn't it make more sense to specify Thad Cochran, who's still there, assuming he also refused to support it? (If he supported it, the current article should be reworded.) john k (talk) 17:52, 29 June 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 9 October 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not done  Dr Strauss   talk   19:50, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Murders of Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner → Freedom Summer Murders – New title concise and accurate, old title seems rather confusing & long yet the old title will remain in the article as a A.K.A. Jon-doe (talk) 22:44, 9 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:PRECISE. There were many murders in the summer of 1964, including some associated with civil rights (such as the murder of Lemuel Penn and those of Henry Hezekiah Dee and Charles Eddie Moore), but only one murder involved people named Chaney, Goodman, and Schwerner. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:21, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose per Malik Shabazz and per the May RM which provides data confirming this as the common name. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:10, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Oppose unless you can provide some sources to show that this new title is one that is actually used. john k (talk) 01:48, 14 October 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

External links modified
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External links modified (February 2018)
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History.com source says "long-pending civil rights bill"
It is also a bad source, as it does not get the disappearance date right.2601:447:4101:41F9:E1D8:409F:EB2F:6C41 (talk) 19:51, 23 June 2018 (UTC)


 * I reverted (undid) your change. Somehow two sources got combined. The fact is on pages 424–425 of the book The Reader's Companion to American History: "Although their badly beaten bodies were not discovered for six weeks, certainty that they had been murdered swept the country and helped precipitate the passage of a long-pending civil rights bill in Congress." The History.com page had nothing to do with the book. I don't know why it was part of the footnote. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:21, 24 June 2018 (UTC)


 * That source may be reliable, but I can't find that particular statement in it. Even if it were there, it can't possibly be correct that the murders helped ensure the passage of the Civil Rights Act, which had already passed both houses of Congress and had the public support of LBJ by the time the men disappeared, as detailed on the Wiki for that Act.  Its enactment was a foregone conclusion.  The murders might have rallied public support behind the Voting Rights Act of 1965 the next year, but simply from a temporal standpoint, it couldn't have affected the CRA of '64. Niremetal (talk) 08:22, 5 January 2020 (UTC)