Talk:Musavat

English Wikipedia
Guys, this is English Wikipedia, so the u's should be English, I'll change the ones I see, if I miss any, please help out.Azerbaijani 22:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, here are a few archival and academic references to add about the Pan-Islamist and Pan-Turkic/Pan-Turkism/Pan-Turanism labels that are being recklessly inserted by user Azerbaijani. I will let the sources speak for themselves. All translations from Russian are mine.

First, we should also not forget the role of the "Ittihad" party, the officially Pan-Islamist in ADR, which was in opposition to Musavat, and helped Bolshevik's to invade and occupy Azerbaijan, leading to the demise of ADR.

"However, all of this had nothing in common with the notorious Pan-Islamism, in which the leaders of Azerbaijani national movement have been accused of for decades by some unfaithful researchers. Islamic solidarity the leaders of our national movement understood only as collaboration and mutual assistance in joint struggle for common goals -- national liberation of Muslim nations from colonialism of the European powers." Source: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 5.

The authors of a 1931 book about the Pan-Islamic and Pan-Turkic labels noted: "[i]n the documents signed by Tsarist Minister of Internal Affairs Stolypin, in official decisions of "special councils", in large-volume cases at the gendarmerie [police], in one word, in all cases, when in former Russian empire one was dealing with a movement (agrarian, national-liberation, revolutionary, etc.) of Turkic-Tatar peoples in Russia, one generic prescription and standard form of definition was ready -- Pan-Islamism". Source: A.Arsharuni, Kh.Gabidullin. Sketches of Pan-Islamism and Pan-Turkism in Russia. (In Russian). Moscow: 1931, p. 3.

"This is testified by the actions of some representatives of the clergy after the February revolution [Second Russian in 1917] against "Musavat" and even declaring the party as enemy of Islam. Speaking on this occassion at the I Convention of "Musavat" in October 1917, M.E.Rasulzade stated: "A person, when entering a mosque, should forget politics, the party, the idea, and pray only to God. Moreover, the clergy should not interfere ["zanimatsya"] in politics, and in political struggle the mosque should remain neutral". Source: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 6, citing Central State Archive of Modern History of the Republic of Azerbaijan, f. 894, op. 10, ed.khr. 60, p. 12.

Here's another Rasulzade quote: "The historical experience had shown, that from one side, giving birth to the theocratic-clerical-reactionary movement, and from another side, preventing the appearance of national ideology in Muslim world, the Pan-Islamism is preventing the awakening of national identity of these nations, delays their progress, and, with this, interferes with their becoming independent nations. That is why, in all Muslim countries, the process of awakening of national identity should be strengthened, because the root of all progress, as well as the foundation of national independence, is only the existence of national "I"." Source: Azerbaijan and Russia: the societies and states. D.E.Furman (ed.), in Russian, Moscow: Letniy Sad (Academician Andrey Sakharov Foundation), 2001. URL: http://www.sakharov-center.ru/publications/azrus/az_009.htm

In his own book, Rasulzade differentiated between "romantic Pan-Turanism" -- whose aim is creation of a unified Turkic state -- and simply "Turkism" or Pan-Turanism, which was a cultural, linguistic and humanitarian concept, not geo-political or military. (see: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 7).

And as Rasulzade noted, "Azerbaijani political figures, in particular, members of Musavat, stood in opposition to the romantic Pan-Turanism, which was an utopia, that did not have any real basis." Source: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 6, citing M.E.Rasulzade's article "About Pan-Turanism", Oxford, 1985, p. 71.

He further noted: "Romantic, political Pan-Turanism is no more, there is only "Turkism", which aims to achieve only real and, in particular, -- national goals". Source: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 6, citing M.E.Rasulzade's article "About Pan-Turanism", Oxford, 1985, p. 79.

"In the opinion of M.E.Rasulzade, the idea of "romantic Pan-Turanism" have preserved its value only in the field of cultural issues, in the struggle for preservation of cultural heritage of Turkic people. Therefore, by declining both Pan-Islamism, and Pan-Turkism, the leaders of Azerbaijani national movement aimed for the creation of an independent national-political ideology, which would reflect the originality ["samobitnost'"] of the Azerbaijani nation, in which its interrelations with other Turkic nations would have been formulated too. They aimed to build relations between Turkic nations not on the basis of tribal affinity, but on the basis of the interests of each nation." Source: A. Balayev. Azerbaijani National Movement: from "Musavat" to the Popular Front. / Institute of History, Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences. In Russian. Baku: Elm, 1992, p. 8.

""Pan-Turkism" or "Pan-Turanism" was ostensibly a movement by Turks to establish hegemony over the world, or at least Eurasia. In fact, this "Pan" movement has no historical ideological precedent among Turks and has been documented to be a creation of the Westerners. Around the time of the occupation of Tashkent by Russian troops in 1865, the doctrine called or "Pan-Turkism" appeared in a work by Hungarian Orientalist Arminius Vambery. The premise of this notion was that since the overwhelming majority of the Central Asians spoke (and still speak) dialects of Turkish, share the same historical origins and history, "they could form a political entity stretching from the Altai Mountains in Eastern Asia to the Bosphorus," where the capital of the Ottoman Empire was located.89 This pseudo-doctrine was then attributed to the Turks themselves, and the Russians and Europeans claimed it was a revival of Chinggiz Khan's conquests, a threat not only to Russia, but the whole of Western civilization.90 In this tactic, attributing aggressive designs to the target, seemed to justify any action against Central Asia, a new "crusade" in the name of "self-defense."

After the Germans joined the Great Game, to undermine British control in Central Asia, Germans manipulated both "Pan- Turkism" and "Pan-Islamism."91 The Pan-Islamic Movement was an anti-colonial political movement of the late 19th century, and must be distinguished from the "orthodox" Islamic unity of all believers, the umma. Jamal Ad-Din al-Afghani (1839-1897) established the movement in its political form, striving to achieve the political unity of Muslims to fight against colonialism and the colonial powers. It was popular among Indian Muslims and in north Africa. However, the movement also served the colonial powers well. Painted as a reverse-Crusade --without necessarily using the terminology, but through graphic allusions-- the Colonial powers could mobilize both Western public opinion and secret international alliances to fight the "emerging threat." The Germans, after the death of al-Afghani, sought to make that threat as real as possible for the British in India.92 The manipulation of both "Pan"s would not die with the old century."

Source: H.B.Paksoy, "Nationality or religion?" AACAR Bulletin (Association for the Advancement of Central Asian Research), Vol.VIII no.2, Fall 1995, http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/53/128.html --AdilBaguirov 02:22, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

II) On Rasulzade's and Musavat(ists) orientation -- whether Pan-Turkist, Pan-Turkic, Pan-Islamist, Pan-Slavic, or Pan-Iranian or Pan-Persian:

"All this was much to the anger of the Mussavat ministers, even though it was rumoured that Hajjinsky had the tacit support of Rasulzadeh who cherished bad memories of both Iran and Turkey."(Charles van der Leeuw, Azerbaijan: A Quest for Identity, Palgrave Macmillan, 2000, p. 121. This quote describes the formation of the last cabinet of ADR, on December 22, 1919.

"The Ottoman authorities removed a few political figures from the Azerbaijani scene, among them Rasulzada, by inviting them for prolonged visits to Turkey. Ottoman interference strengthened the tendencies toward Azerbaijani nationalism whithin the political elite. Azerbaijan's relations with Turkey would henceforth be tainted with uneasiness bordering on distrust, and Pan-Turkism would gradually be reduced from a political program to a cultural doctrine". Tadeusz Swietochowski, Russian and Azerbaijan: A Borderland in Transition, Columbia University Press, 1995, p. 71.

"The 1931 suppression of the emigre publications coincided with Rasulzada's expulsion from Turkey, and some saw it all as the result of caving in to the Soviet pressure. In reality, the reason went deep into the complex relationship between Turkey and Azerbaijan, a love story with its ups and downs amidst stormy episodes. Tensions had been growing toward the end of the decade, and by 1930, they had reached a boiling point. In reply to Turkish criticism that the Musavat was neglecting the cause of Turkic unity, Rasulzada published a pamphlet titled O Pantiurkizme v sviazii s kavkazskoi problemoi (Pan-Turkism with regard to the caucasian problem). Among the references to the experience of the 1918 Ottoman occupation, he firmly stated his view: Pan-Turkism was a cultural movement rather that [sic!] a political program." Tadeusz Swietochowski, Russian and Azerbaijan: A Borderland in Transition, Columbia University Press, 1995, p. 130.

"For the Azeris, notably Rasulzada and his associates, the Polish connection was a welcome circumstance after the expulsion from Turkey. Amin bay took up residence in Warsaw, where he found a group of Azeri students and officers on contract with the Polish army. Here he found also his Polish wife." Tadeusz Swietochowski, Russian and Azerbaijan: A Borderland in Transition, Columbia University Press, 1995, p. 132.

“Musavat had announced its birth [October 1911] with a manifesto that -- despite the radical past of its authors -- ignored social issues. Moreover, the party that would eventually be the main force of Azeri nationalism couched its first proclamation entirely in terms of the 'umma consciousness by appealing to Pan-Islamic rather than Pan-Turkic sentiments. Recalling that "the noble people of Islam had once reached with one hand to Peking...and with other built at the far end of Europe the Alhambra palace," the manifesto deplored the Islamic world's current weakness. In 1912 the Musavat put forward the program of political action that recalled for the unity of all Muslims, regardless of nationality or sectarian affiliation, restoration of the lost independence of Muslim countries, and moral and material assistance to Muslim peoples struggling for the preservation of their independence." Tadeusz Swietochowski, Russian and Azerbaijan: A Borderland in Transition, Columbia University Press, 1995, p. 52.

As you can see, it is very hard to put a convenient "label" on Rasulzade -- he changed affiliations often, like many politicians, was a Hummet leader first, and then, only in 1913 joined Musavat, which at first was Pan-Islamic, then Pan-Iranian, then Pan-Turkic (I argue that Pan-Turkist and Pan-Turkic are different for the reasons I've already stated), and again Pan-Iranian, then Pan-Turkic -- but all the time remaining true to only one Pan -- Pan-Azerbaijanist. As you clearly see, he was banned and exiled from Turkey in the 1930s and 1940s, and even before that, had a dislike to Ottoman and later Turkish policies. Likewise, he was no fan of Iranian central government, shah. Likewise with Russia -- although Musavat before 1917 did see itself as an autonomous part of reformed Russia. Anyhow, as is clear from Prof. Swietochowski, and as I said yesterday, "Pan-Turkism was a cultural movement rather than a political program (Rasulzade's admission)".

III) On the name Azerbaijan for ADR:

"Although the proclamation [of ADR] restricted its claim to the territory north of the Araxes, the use of the name Azerbaijan would soon bring objections from Iran. In Tehran, suspicions were aroused that the Republic of Azerbaijan served as an Ottoman device for detaching the Tabriz province from Iran. Likewise, the national revolutionary Jangali movement in Gilan, while welcoming the independence of every Muslim land as a "source of joy," asked in its newspaper if the choice of the name Azerbaijan implied the new republic's desire to join Iran. If so, they said, it should be stated clearly, otherwise Iranians would be opposed to calling that republic Azerbaijan. Consequently, to allay Iranian fears, the Azerbaijani government would accommodatingly use the term Caucasian Azerbaijan in its documents for circulation abroad." Tadeusz Swietochowski, Russian and Azerbaijan: A Borderland in Transition, Columbia University Press, 1995, p. 69.

This quote shows the MAXIMUM extent of ADR's concession (and thus Rasulzade's, as he and Musavat were at the peak of their authority, however limited) to "please" Iran/Persia was to call Azerbaijan as "Caucasian Azerbaijan" -- which is consistent with what some Russian scholars called it before anyway, and consistent with more modern description of North Azerbaijan vs. South Azerbaijan. Hence, the quote above strengthens my position that Atabaki's quote is misinterpreted and out of context. It also shows that neither Swietochowski -- a top scholar in the field -- nor others I've looked for, have made anything as Atabaki's assessment.

IV) On Iranian claims to ADR and subsequent official recognition of ADR by Iran (actually, Persia, or, dowlat-e Qajar):

“In Paris, the Azerbaijani delegation has done a great job on the question of relations with Iran. As is known, after the founding of ADR, Iran has made territorial claims to Azerbaijan, demanding it to be unified with Iranian state. After the adoption, in London on August 19, 1919, of the British-Iranian Treaty, Iran has relinquished is territorial claims to Azerbaijan. On November 1, 1919, in Paris, Azerbaijan and Iran have reached an agreement on established of diplomatic relations between them. Signing of this agreement was a big success of the Azerbaijani diplomacy on the international arena, which solidified the status of Azerbaijan as an independent state.” Igrar Aliyev (ed.), “History of Azerbaijan”, Part IV “Azerbaijan in modern times”, Chapter XXIII, “Founding of Azerbaijan Democratic Republic”, sub-title: “Azerbaijan on international arena. Paris Peace Conference”, Baku: Elm Publishing House of the Azerbaijan Academy of Sciences, 1995 (in Russian). http://www.azerbembassy.org.cn/rus/historical23.html

The original citation in Russian: ИСТОРИЯ АЗЕРБАЙДЖАНА, (ред.Играр Алиев, изд."ЕЛМ", 1995г.), Раздел IV. Азербайджан в новое время, Глава XXIII, ПРОВОЗГЛАШЕНИЕ АЗЕРБАЙДЖАНСКОЙ ДЕМОКРАТИЧЕСКОЙ РЕСПУБЛИКИ. Азербайджан на международной арене. Парижская мирная конференция. http://www.azerbembassy.org.cn/rus/historical23.html “В Париже азербайджанской делегацией была проведена большая работа по вопросу об отношении с Ираном. Как известно, после образования АДР Иран выдвигал территориальные притязания к Азербайджану, требуя присоединения его к Иранскому государству. После заключения в Лондоне 19 августа 1919 г. англо-иранского договора Иран отказался от территориальных притязаний к Азербайджану. 1 ноября 1919 г. в Париже между Азербайджаном и Ираном был заключен договор о признании независимости Азербайджана и было достигнуто соглашение об установлении дипломатических отношений между ними. Подписание этого договора явилось большим успехом азербайджанской дипломатии на международной арене, закрепляло статус Азербайджана как независимого государства.”

Another book by the Institute of History of the Academy of Sciences of Azerbaijan (see its full citation, link and original text in Russian below), also cites several archival documents about the signing of a Treaty of Peace and Friendship, signed on March 20, 1920, between Azerbaijan and Iran, and opening of respective embassies. Simultaneously, agreements on customs, trade, postal-telegraph and consular relations was also signed. A short while later, the embassy of ADR was opened in Tehran and Consulate General was opened in Tabriz.

The original citation in Russian: Азербайджанская Демократическая Республика (1918-1920), ГОСУДАРСТВЕННАЯ КОМИССИЯ ПО ПРОВЕДЕНИЮ 80-й ГОДОВЩИНЫ АЗЕРБАЙДЖАНСКОЙ ДЕМОКРАТИЧЕСКОЙ РЕСПУБЛИКИ. ИНСТИТУТ ИСТОРИИ АН АЗЕРБАЙДЖАНА им. А. А. БАКИХАНОВА, http://www.karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/azerpeople/ap045-6.php "20 марта 1920 года между Азербайджаном и Ираном был подписан договор о мире и дружбе, по которому иранское правительство признавало де-юре независимость Азербайджана. Стороны принимали на себя обязательства по созданию и укреплению дружественных и экономических отношений, а также по открытию азербайджанского посольства в Тегеране и иранского - в Баку31. Кроме того, в тот же день между Азербайджаном и Ираном были подписаны соглашения о таможне, торговле, почтово-телеграфных и консульских отношениях32. Спустя некоторое время в Тегеране было открыто посольство Азербайджана, а в Тебризе начало действовать генеральное консульство Азербайджана33."

This quotes' are simply a reminder that Iran had territorial claims to ADR, but later relinquished them and fully recognized ADR under its name. --AdilBaguirov 20:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

And here's from Grandmaster: Musavat was a party of Azeri nationalists, originally their ideology was not quite clear, they had mixed such contradicting ideas as pan-Turkism, pan-Islamism and socialism, but by 1918 Musavat became an Azeri nationalist party. I cited my sources with regard to that, and they are scholarly sources.

In Azerbaijan, the Musavat Party commanded overwhelming support among local Muslims during 1917-1920 by promoting a vague but appealing platform that mixed Marxist social reformism with an ill-defined nationalism directed against Russian imperial domination, but more specifically against the domination of regional economic and political life by the Armenian and Russian commercial and working classes of the oil city of Baku. The leader of the Musavat had been in the forefront of opposition to the Tatar program of extraterritorial autonomy for Russia's Muslims and in favor of outright federalism at the Muslim Congress of May 1917. What actually constituted the framework for the national identity of Azerbaijani Muslims was left unclear. There had for many decades been a debate between advocates of a literary language based on local dialects and supporters of Gasprinsky's pan-Turkic lingua franca. Some Musavat leaders had a history of active pan-Turkism with an orientation toward Istanbul, and the party essentially welcomed the advance of Ottoman troops into the region with open arms in 1918. It was the actual experience of occupation by the Ottoman military, which violated its professions of fraternal amity by pursuing politically repressive policies, that led to the definitive alienation of the Musavat from pan-Turkism and its unambiguous turn toward an avowedly Azerbaijani nationalism.

Aviel Roshwald. Ethnic Nationalism and the Fall of Empires: Central Europe, the Middle East and Russia, 1914-1923

Muslim and Turkic-speaking Azerbaijan and Christian Armenia, speaking an Indo-European language of its own, declared independence two days after Georgia did. Reds had seized the oil city of Baku in March, a coup in which 3,000 Muslims died. For a short time a Bolshevik-Left Menshevik government was in power, but its leader fled and was killed. The SR's, taking over, invited the British General Dunsterville to stop the Turks from taking over. It was too late; they took Baku on September 15, 1918. The nationalist-socialist Mussavat party allied itself with Turkey, but soon quarreled with the occupiers. After the armistice, the British General Thomson landed in Baku, and soon recognized a government headed by Fathali Khan-Khoisky, a former liberal Duma deputy.

Donald W. Treadgold, Herbert J. Ellison. Twentieth Century Russia. ISBN: 0813336724

Grandmaster 05:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality Tag?
Some ArmenianJoe, obviously not knowing what to say, just inserted a neutrality tag? I am not quite clear what is not neutral in this article, which seems largely based on references or quotes from Western sources, and in general provides objective information about the party and its history. So unless ArmenianJoe can explain what is not neutral, or if someone else can discuss, the tag shall be removed. Atabek 23:30, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is absolutely incredible!! This shows the level of civilisation of the opponents of Azerbaijan and the Azerbaijani people! What they do is to disguise themselves as Azerbaijanis and harm everything about Azerbaijan. Fars or Armenian that is. Shameful! Roazir 23:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I EXPECT THOSE WHO INSERT THE NEUTRALITY TAG TO INSERT THE REFERENCES DISPUTING THE FACTS IN THE ARTICLE. IF SUCH REFERENCES COUNTERING THE ONES ALREADY PROVIDED ON THE PAGE ARE NOT PROVIDED, THE NEUTRALITY TAG WILL BE REMOVED. USERS INSERTING THE TAG AS WELL AS THE FACT OF INSERTION OF THE TAG WILL BE REPORTED TO ADMINISTRATORS AT ALL LEVELS Atabek 12:00, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Title
I moved the article to the new title, Musavat. I hope no one objects, as this is what the party was called. Grandmaster 08:53, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * undid vandalism. --Ateshi - Baghavan 17:46, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I added precise Firouzeh Mostashari quote and moved it to the right context within the article. Thanks. Atabek (talk) 19:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

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