Talk:Music of Canada/Archive 1

{| width=100% cellspacing=10 style="background:none;" ! style="border:1px solid #bfd7ff; background-color:#e1edff; padding:0.2em 0.4em; font-size:120%; font-weight:bold; text-align:left; "|This page is an Archive of the discussion page for Music of Canada. (October 2005 - Sept 2009) Please Do not edit!

Niel Young
Should Niel Young have a more prominent role in this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.24.196.21 (talk) 05:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Rush
This page needs to fellate Rush moar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.181.226.152 (talk) 07:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Delisted GA
There are no images, and I find it hard to believe that such a lengthy article could come from a single reference. slambo 17:39, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * This sure needs some work, but where was it listed as GA in the first place? Marskell 17:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Karen Young
Who is the Karen Young mentioned in the "Other immigrant communities" section? Olessi 20:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Doug and the Slugs
I'm sure there are lots of bands that were intentially left off, but it seems like an oversight to me that Doug and the Slugs was not mentioned. I went to several of their concernts in the 80's and they drew a significant audience. They also got quite a bit of airplay, including on CFNY (I loved the mention of that great radio station). I now live in the USA and Dougs and the Slugs even got a bit of airplay down here.


 * This is an overview article; artists named were chosen as a representative sample rather than an exhaustive list. Bearcat 18:58, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
I removed the February 2006 cleanup tag as there is no discussion here. Hyacinth 21:16, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The article is pretty unreadable.  Jkelly 16:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed, but it's going to take a seriously concerted cleanup effort; this is one of those cases where too many cooks have spoiled the broth. Bearcat 05:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I have a proposal... lets re-write the whole thing.  This thing was obviously written by the folkies and then added to in an ad hoc fashion by everyone else....  I think the folk section needs to become a genre section, and we need to have a debate here on what standards we need to develop for what makes a band notable.  I don't know why we would mention specific bands that sold less that GOLD records, or 50,000 copies, on this article, UNLESS it was on the regional section (ie: Kim Stockwood, who I just deleted).
 * Lets have a meaningful discussion here about how to edit this garbage. WayeMason 00:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Punk & hardcore
There seems to be a gap around punk rock and hardcore punk in Canada. Propagandhi are the main band I am aware of, there is also a category:Canadian hardcore punk bands, can some mention be made? Paul foord 11:26, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I will try to do so, although I am not in to punk, I will also try to address the lack on metal, and maybe bluegrass.. even though I am not particularly a fan of these genres. Maybe someone can help me out. Basser g 15:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Metal/Death Metal
The article makes no mention of the many influential metal bands from canada —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.49.88.32 (talk) 17:12, 27 January 2007 (UTC).

Electronic music?
This article needs to include some information on Electronic music in Canada. Canada has become a huge force in the electronic music industry with artists such as Sultan, Max Graham and Shiloh.

Mattpmarshall 19:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, this article needs a lot of work. It's barely adequate on mainstream pop/rock, and somewhere between marginal and abysmal on almost everything else. The problem is that because fixing this up is such a massive undertaking, and nobody on Wikipedia can claim to be an expert in every genre that needs to be reflected or improved here, there hasn't been any serious effort made to really get this cleaned up and expanded properly. So you simultaneously have to balance the conflicting facts that (a) it'll take a lot of people helping out to get this redone right, and (b) too many people doing scattershot edits is what made it such a mess in the first place. I'll try in the next couple of days to launch a comprehensive wikiproject to get this up to scratch. Bearcat 21:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Proposal
As noted above, I've set up a WikiProject to deal specifically with Canadian music. It's at WikiProject Canadian music. Please do join if you have any interest in Canadian music — especially if you have any kind of expertise in underrepresented genres such as jazz, classical, punk, country or electronic.

In terms of how to clean this article up, I would suggest that each genre's subsection be stripped down to a relatively basic overview of the subject, which can then be expanded upon in a separate article (Canadian country music, Canadian jazz, Canadian folk music, etc.) As you can see, for some genres (Canadian rock, Canadian hip hop, Canadian classical music) this has already been done, although in some cases the content of those articles was merely cut and pasted from this one. On Canadian hip hop, in particular, further changes have been made to that text which weren't repeated here, meaning that article and this one actually now contradict each other on a couple of things.

Other suggestions are welcome — we really do need to actually deal with getting this article up to scratch, y'know? Let's start some discussion on how to do that. Bearcat 22:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I propose that we change the "folk" section to a non-genre specific regional section. Create a folk section in the genre section, and put that genre section before the regional.  Set a goal of no more than 4-5 bands sited per historic period, genre, or region, with all further bands being sited ONLY in the detailed article.  We should pick the biggest musical artist from 1900-1949, 1950s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and 00s so far, so that is SEVEN artists/bands only, for the intro.  We should ruthlessly strip this turkey down to bare bones and dump as much into the subordinate articles. WayeMason 00:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * How else should the sections be structured? It looks confused between chronology and genres, going back and forth with some stray genres near the middle, and then goes into regions. There could also be a historical section for things like CANCON and VideoFACT, separate from genres, separate from regions. Music of the United States is a featured list that goes through 3 broad genres (folk, classical, pop) with subsections. –Pomte 04:17, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Whoa. Now that is a well-done article. How about we look very seriously to that as a model for how to reorganize this? I'd suggest, for example, that any chronological organization should be on the genre-specific subarticles, and possibly a "timeline of Canadian music" article, rather than here; this article should be primarily an overview by genre, structured at least somewhat like the United States article. We don't have to duplicate that article precisely, of course, but we should probably take some direction from it nonetheless. I think I'll copy it to a sandbox page and start looking at ways to organize our current information into that format. Bearcat 06:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Update: I've copied the US article to User:Bearcat/Music of Canada, and trimmed it down to just the headers and a few notes here and there. Instead of making wholesale changes to the main article in the meantime, let's use that sandbox page as a template to hash out and propose ideas that we can transplant into the main article as we get them up to usable status. Feel free to jot ideas down, or even to start writing sections on that page. Bearcat 06:29, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Christian Music?
What about the music that is on Christianity? I mean they got to have to have at least the popular music to have christian lyrics or something. I could not especially find any sort of Christian Heavy metal Band from Canada. I mean there has got to be some of that listed. User:Virtue account 12:58 pm July 2007

Cryptopsy. See: The Pestilence That Walketh In Darkness. :awesome:--74.181.226.152 (talk) 07:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Project assessment
I have reduced the Canadian Music Project assessment from Class B from Class A to match the World Music project ranking, and due to outstanding sourcing issues tag. However, it is assessed as Top importance for the project since this article should be something of a signature piece on Canadian music. Dl2000 01:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Comedy music
I would have expected to see The Arrogant Worms and Moxy Fruvous on this page... do comedy songs not count? 129.42.208.174 (talk) 07:44, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Canadian hardcore punk
I've started an article on Canadian hardcore punk if anyone is interested.. ScarTissueBloodBlister (talk) 18:06, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Music by decade
Music by decade Has been removed as it has multiple tags importance-sect Sub-sections|date=August 2009 Split section|date=August 2009

Articles have been incorporated into main body of article, less all the Name of groups and musicians. Buzzzsherman (talk) 03:07, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Since new Article and Peer review from August 2009
AS of August 8th 2009 the main body of the article had been redone.

The main Article is no longer a list of Canadian musicians..but rather a wide view of Canadian music at large. Article has been upgraded from START level to C level Quality scale

Canadian music genres moved to new artical Canadian music genres Section has been given its own Article page as per Split recommendation.........

Music of Specific Canadian Cultures has been moved to its own page Music of Canadian Cultures Section has been given its own Article page.. as per Split recommendation..............

.............The Article is much better then before now covering (although briefly) from 17th century onwards... But the page need much more work. There is 2 new section as mentioned above Canadian music genres and Music of Canadian Cultures this is were individual artist and musical genres  should be listed. This article is now a broad look at Canada and its Musical evolution rather then a list of artist and musical genres as the article was way too long before and was slated for deletion.............

I have also asked for a peer review as i am the main contributor to the article and have rated it C Buzzzsherman (talk) 15:12, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Sectioning
I think there's a lot of good information here, but the article's sectioning is lacking, and some important topics are under-discussed. First of all, both Canadian music genres and music of Canadian Cultures are inappropriate subtopics - both topics are more or less congruous: all music is part of a genre, and all music is part of a culture. Subarticles should be Music history of Canada, Canadian popular music, Canadian folk music, etc. Two sections of this article are lists, and should probably not be covered here at all.

As I see it, this article should be divided into roughly thirds, with one third being "history", one third being a summary of different kinds of music. and the last third being a discussion of music education, industry, law and other topics. Tuf-Kat (talk) 02:12, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes i agree.. for sectioning .....WE need something like a "Social identity", "Diversity", "Scholarship" and "Industry and economics" section like Music of the United States....But i do find the United States article very very very very long and hard to navigate. Size does not make it better, but never the less we do need some more sections like mentioned above.

As for musicians mentioned in this article...only the top recording artist of there time is written about we have Canadian rock, Canadian classical music, Canadian hip hop, Canadian blues  etc... for a more detailed listing of lesser influential musicians.

As for Canadian music genres and music of Canadian Cultures they were both on the page before and do not come even close to helping the main article. AS the have very few references let alone there personal views. I could see renaming the 2 new sections,,,,, but as you will notice this will take work.. and writers are hard to come by.

As for genres the article clearly indicates that after the 1950s there are to many genres to keep track of in a detailed fashion.. thus we have articles called Canadian music genres and music of Canadian Cultures that need much attention. The musicians listed in this article are the best of the best in a world wide view. Buzzzsherman (talk) 05:41, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I do agree with "TUF-KAT" we need more info on the growth of individual cultures within Canada in this article. I agree with "Buzz" that only the widely internationally know artist of the highest caliber should be mentioned...WIKI is for the world to see and relate to. there is no need to mention only Canadian known peoplethats Y we have Sub-Articles if people want to know more details. But when it comes to individual artist and genres we have a Banner on all Canadian music pages(not on Blues page) that links to all the Sub-genres we have at this time. They should stay separated ...but they do need work lots of work..well Canadian rock is very good..but the rest Classical· Blues· Celtic · Hip hop· Cultural· Sub-Genres I have also noticed that Canadian County has been deleted due to lack of references (can never have to many refs) We also need a section or sub-section on the making of musical instrument in Canada and section on Canadian music media 174.115.165.184 (talk) 17:19, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

It may be a complex array of info, but we can't just shunt off that stuff to Canadian music genres and Music of Canadian cultures, nor will renaming them help. The scope of thoese articles encompasses essentially all the topics that are actually relevant to the everyday musical lives of Canadians. Without that stuff, music of Canada can only describe history and specialized subtopics like industry and academia, which aren't really a subtantial part of the lives of most Canadians (certainly not to the degree popular music is, for example). Music of Canada should fundamentally answer the question "What roles do different kinds of music play in the lives of Canadians today?" That requires a discussion of pop, country, rock, hip hop, Quebecois music, Trinidadian-Canadian music, Inuit music, etc. I realize that's complicated and difficult, but there's no way around it - that's why music of the United States is rather long and dense. Tuf-Kat (talk) 21:41, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with TUF-KAT. Much of the 'flavour' of the article has recently been removed. There are now a dozen 'see also' links... Personally, I would not click twelve different times to get some of that 'flavour of Canada' into me. I find the article dry and uninteresting now; just what I fear the WORLD thinks of us Canucks. It is basically just a History of Canadian Music (and should be retitled as such). The vast expanse of our country demands that the diversity across the waters, mountains and tundra be acknowledged as lending to the musical development of the nation's unique regions. Canadian Girl Scout (talk) 13:10, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes i agree Canadian Girl Scout you are 100percent right on the flavor of the article. But still i am very happy to see some real history in the article now ..if i am not mistaken it originally started with the year 1944 or so and with no mention of any real history not even the anthem.

This article has just been re-done from the start and needs much work...here is the copy from before if you fell that some copy and pasting will add to the flavor pls do so. But keep in mind most of the old copy has no referances.

As for the links i believe they|we did that because we are now coping the format the Canadian wikiproject uses.just a guess? see i.e 1, see i.e 2, see i.e 3 174.115.165.184 (talk) 20:38, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Contents sections Added
Wow lots has happened in the last 4 days ... Good job ..we went from this article with no structure at all starting in 1944 ..LOL to what we have now great just great... I\have done some adding of Main Article links under new Contents sections And i see Canadian rock has been WIKIDY properly ....Good job guys!!!!!! Buzzzsherman (talk) 07:23, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Native to First Nations
I have re-worded ... Native to First Nations as per the modern term... The French settlers brought with them a great love of song, dance and fiddle playing, by the 1630s French and Native children at Quebec City were taught to sing and play European instruments

pls see First Nations Controversial terminology for more info.

Buzzzsherman (talk) 05:00, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Stan Rogers
How could an article about Canadian music not have a single mention of Stan Rogers? Anomity (talk) 18:24, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

To do

 * Peer reviewer


 * Check links


 * dablinks


 * web pywikipedia


 * Altviewer

Update coming
21st century section.. Tentative Agenda for the 7th Round of ACTA Negotiations, Guadalajara, Mexico, January 26 to 29, 2010 We will have to watch out as this will have an out come tomorrow..there may be many random edits of this info! If anyone can find a good source i will use it!! ....Buzzzsherman (talk) 02:37, 29 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Update ok i have added this --> At the 7th round of negotiations, in Guadalajara, Mexico in January 2010, participants have still to reach an agreement on many key points.
 * However i dont like the reference...good web site but this is from there blog!!! help finding a better ref i think is needed..pls help in this regard...Buzzzsherman (talk) 17:58, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Notable omission from the article: Glenn Gould As one of the greatest pianists of the 20th century, Gould is obviously one of Canada's greatest musical exports. What an omission! --AlkanSite (talk) 07:19, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Other Notable omissions From the 60s-1999: Just some of the great Canadian artists who influenced music around the world: Joni Mitchell, The Guess Who, BTO (Bachman–Turner Overdrive), Ian and Sylvia, Leonard Cohen, The Band, Gordon Lightfoot, Triumph, Anne Murray, Buffy Sainte-Marie. We aren`t talking about little known Cancon acts, but huge internationally famous acts. If no one is going to put them in, *I* will! farrellj (talk) 08:25, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Latest reverts
Ok i have reverted the addition of a POV statement about the USA...I have done this 3 time..not and edit war but simply trying to not have a POV statement in the lead...If you think its that major pls find a references for it ... .....Moxy (talk) 19:44, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

The First Canadian act living in Canada with a Billboard #1 Pop chart hit.
I feel this needs to clarified for the sake of accuracy. On the Music of Canada page concerning Paul Anka's hit "Diana" it states,

"1958 saw its first Canadian rock and roll teen idol Paul Anka, who went to New York City where he auditioned for ABC with the song, Diana.[74] This song brought Anka instant stardom and he became the first Canadian to have a number one hit single on the US Billboard charts."

Technically the title of First Canadian on Billboards #1 spot" should go to Canadian born Guy Lombardo who had a Billboard #1 hit with the song "It's Love-Love-Love" from April 22 to May 5th, 1944. However Lombardo became a naturalized American citizen in 1938 so he was an American citizen when he charted. But technically I guess he wins.

The second instance of Canadians being involved with a Billboard Top 100 #1 was The Four Lads from Toronto who hooked up with American teen sensation Johnnie Ray for the hit "Cry" which held the #1 spot from Dec 29, 1951 to March 14th, 1952. "Cry" also spent a week at the #1 spot on Billboards R&B charts for the week of January 12,1952. The hit really belonged to Johnnie Ray however the Four Lads got their due when several members of the Lads morphed into The Crew-Cuts. Coincidentally Brian Wilson has cited the Four Lads as being his inspiration for the Beach Boys and their harmony style.

Again on July 5th 1952 Toronto born Band-leader Percy Faith did a one week run at #1 on the Billboard Top 100 with his hit "Delicado". Faith scored his second #1 on the Billboard Top 100 with "The Song from Moulin Rouge (Where Is Your Heart)" for an amazing 10 weeks from May 16th to July 24th, 1953. But like Guy Lombardo, Percy Faith had left Canada for permanent residency in the U.S. in 1940 becoming a naturalized American citizen in 1945. So he too was an American citizen when he charted but we won't hold that against him.

In actual fact the first Canadian act living in Canada to have a Billboard #1 Pop hit was the Toronto do-wop group The Crew-Cuts with their cover of The Chords hit "Sh-Boom". The Crew-Cut's "Sh-Boom" held the #1 spot on the Billboard charts from August 7th to September 24th 1954. It also charted at #2 in the UK and Australia.

"Diana" by Paul Anka turns up on the Billboard listings for one week at #1 on September 9, 1957 on the "Best Seller In Stores" list and again at #1 on the Billboard R&B charts from September 23rd to September 29, 1957, although it climbed no higher than #2 on Billboard's "Top 100" chart.

Anka makes his first appearance at #1 on the Billboard Top 100 charts on July 13th, 1959 with "Lonely Boy". The song remained at the #1 spot until August 9th, 1959.

August 24th, 1974 is the next time Paul Anka along with Odia Coates hits #1 on Billboards Top 100 with "You're Having My Baby". The song stays at #1 until September 13th.

Check it out at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_number-one_hits_(United_States) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_number-one_rhythm_and_blues_hits_(United_States) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.3.211.249 (talk) 03:00, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * as per this post and subsequent references on the Billboard page Guy Lombardo is now credited with the first single//as for the rest not sure if its all that relivent.Moxy (talk) 00:45, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

The hockey song
It strikes me that, without a reference, a generic song about hockey is not a patriotic song. I take the ones about part os the country, and anthems as a given though. An IP reverted my revert, and I then re reverted my revert.... Let us discuss it here. Dbrodbeck (talk) 03:43, 22 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Your are correct - good edit.Moxy (talk) 04:23, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Gordon Lightfoot
No mention of national treasure Gordon Lightfoot?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.216.30 (talk) 10:04, 6 November 2012 (UTC)