Talk:Music of The Lord of the Rings film series/Archive 1

Untitled
Will someone help me with this? --Surten (talk) 00:02, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally ..WHERE in London was the music recorded for the film?

Seperate CD Articles
Would it not be better to have separate article for the six cd sets (2 for each film - standard and extended) where the track listings would be placed and on this page have the information on composition etc. Also that listing of different themes in rubbish, and is NOT going to be read! The themes should be talked about in general and in brief, with references to certain ones only.

Article quality
This article is just not interesting at all. We learn nothing by reading it. We can't even read it since it is just an incomplete list of non-interesting informations about Shore's work (the track listing of each CD is particularly useless). If I compare it to Star Wars music, this article is absolutely nothing. Somebody, a fan of Shore's music for the Lord of the Rings, should do a great clean-up of this article. Or perhaps we should just delete it... Trimmo 17:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC).

Also, with the release of the Complete Recordings there is much more information about the themes and motives of the score(s) that is presented in this article either not very thoroughly or outright incorrectly. Poke Alex 16:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Complete Recordings
This article needs some serious info as to the status of the Complete Recordings for the other two films. Darth Sidious 06:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

tritone
I'm not sure but does the ring theme start with a tritone? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.41.99.9 (talk • contribs).
 * No, it does not. The interval is a minor second.  The notes of the theme (transposed to make it easier to understand) are: E, F, E, F, E, D, F, E, A.  Nationalparks 20:59, 3 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think there's a C in there too, one step below the D. Depends on the rendition. Ours18 03:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * That's possible in certain readings of the theme, but no tritone. Nationalparks 21:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The tritone he or she mentioned is probably between the E in the foreground and the Bs in the harmony. This tritone appears in some versions of the theme. I must say, Nationalparks, that there is no tritone in the foreground, except in some of the more ominous variations.24.161.53.152 (talk) 00:03, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Reconstruction
I shall continue to update this page every so often. This page shall be as good as or better than the Star Wars music page. ;) I will try to make it informative and interesting. :) Serapthis 03:10, 24 December 2006 (UTC) contribs) 03:08, 24 December 2006 (UTC).

Themes
I completely disagree with the new look of the page. This page must not be a repliqua of the notes by Doug Adams. I find it nonsense to just write down every theme. We should just write a few themes by movie (like for Star Wars music and describe them. This page must not be a list. Trimmo 23:50, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The "Star Wars Music" page lists all of the themes with a description for them, and it lists the "unofficial" themes - all 30 or so of them. This isn't much different. Yeah, it's a lot, but so what? Why not make it like the CR liner notes? This is for people that don't have the CR/CR liner notes. I plan on adding some material that is factual but in my own words, not Doug's. But, that will be a while.


 * I personally think this article is too confusing. The first themes are propperly explained, but then, it's just a list of titles for themes which we really don't know how they go. Then, there are also different settings for the same theme. The Star Wars Music page just names the themes and mentions some of it's variations, but not every single one of them. Damn it, LotR fans, please make this article for dummies!--Surten (talk) 05:12, 4 January 2009 (UTC)Surten

Wasn't there a description of all the themes just a few weeks ago? I am very disappointed that it was deleted - that was definitely the most useful part of the article. The interesting aspect about the music is how Shore connects the themes to the different characters, whereas the songs' titles aren't really relevant. A list of all the soloists and titles does not help the reader to understand the music's structure. So I suggest that the "principal leitmotifs" section from the 3rd of July should be reestablished. MmeCurie (talk) 09:01, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Someone claimed it was a copyvio, though they didn't give the source. I'm guessing it was either the books that came with the complete recordings or the online PDFs. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 13:41, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Score
Does anybody know where to get the score (not an arranged version, with the original orchestration)?

Nice article - suggest some merging
This is a nice article. Are those editing this article aware of Category:The Lord of the Rings film music? Some of the entries there could be merged into this article. Especially Aníron, Concerning Hobbits, Gollum's Song, Into the West (song) and May It Be. There is also The Lord of the Rings (symphony) - would anyone here be interested in expanding that article? Carcharoth 01:34, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Though maybe those articles are best left separate from this. I'm not sure how music songs are handled in general. Carcharoth 01:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Sir Malcolm Arnold
There doesn't seem to be any mention of the fact that a small portion of his fifth symphony was included in the film score. I'm no music expert, just happend to be listening to it on the radio, and there clear as day i was back in middle earth. Well on reflection i don't mean to suggest any kind of plagiarism, but more interesting is the question wheather the composer of the score was unconsciously influenced by hearing a short passage from this symphony to repeat it in his score. I think the threads that run from one piece of music to another are fascinating and a bit like train spotting its fun to find them.

Which Doug Adams?
The Doug Adams link is to a dab page. Anchoress 18:23, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

And should the reference to an upcoming book of his be removed due to his dramatically reduced odds of ever writing again? Kai Su? My Talk Page 20:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The LOTR book isn't being written by the author of the Hitchhiker trilogy. It's being written by a different Doug Adams. Tinmanic (talk) 16:22, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Parth Galen
Some material from the above article deposited here: "Although the entire scene was whittled down to just a few cues for the The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring soundtrack, the music in its entirety appears on the third disc of The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (The Complete Recording) in the form of a 9:13 minute cue - this version was used in the Special Extended DVD Edition, which included parts cut from the scene where the music would have played." Carcharoth 22:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Complete Redo
It has become apparent that this article (or at least the principal lemotifs section) probably needs a complete rewrite. I think instead of including descriptions of all 80-something themes, we should select a few. I propose this list of themes to go in depth (one or two paragraphs about musical stylings and usage). These themes are ones that are prominently featured in the films, and pared down to only one theme per major concept (please note that, at the moment, I only own the CR of FotR and TT, I hope to acquire RotK soon). I have begun re-writing the article here, please do not edit but feel free to comment. I will edit the actual article when the "draft" is mostly complete (to about B-Class). Davidt2718 (talk) 03:32, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The Ring Theme ("The History of the Ring")
 * The Fellowship of the Ring Theme
 * The Hobbit Theme (Pensive Setting)
 * The Realm of Gondor
 * Isengard/The Orcs
 * The Ringwraiths
 * Rivendell
 * Lothlorien
 * Rohan Fanfare
 * The Way to Mordor

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Unusual Instrumentation and Orchestration
Due to the score containing some rather odd instruments for an orchestral soundtrack to a movie principally made in areas not native to the instruments (India, Africa, Nepal, Norway), I think there should be a brief list of these instruments with the motifs they appear in alongside them, or at least what Tolkien cultures Shore associates them with. We should agree on what instruments constitute "unusual" however; I propose all non-Western instruments (sitar, sarangi, ney, rhaita, etc.) be included, and not somewhat eccentric but primarily Western instruments such as the Irish whistle or the Norwegian fiddle. However, I think the chains and piano wire combination and perhaps the anvil should be mentioned, as well as the use of rugby players for grunting and using percussion instruments for the lowest bass register during the Fellowship theme. Any objections? Ours18 (talk) 03:37, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Open Call
I'm writing this comment in all of the articles about special editions of soundtracks. I suggest to create an article (or a portal if it was needed) with a list of soundtracks that have been expanded in several and more complete editions, as I find interesting to see which scores have been succesful enough that many editions and much more complete versions have been released. Please reply if you agree with me or if there's already something similar. --Surten (talk) 03:08, 13 May 2008 (UTC)Surten

Star Wars music could be a good exemple of what this page should look like.

Complete Rewrite
It doesn't seem like anyone has made a huge edit in a while, and I personally think this article is currently really unorganized and incomplete. It could use a good rewrite, which I would like to do. (And will start soon enough) IthilLuin (talk) 07:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * A bit late, but finished and added. I mainly just merged the three movies together, with a few other minor edits. 209.6.124.71 (talk) 03:02, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

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 * Done. --Beyond silence 19:56, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Pardon my elvish
Should you mention the lyrics featured in the CD booklets? These booklets have the poems both in english and translated into their respective languages (sindarin, elvish and quenya), but only the "Fellowship" soundtrack notes where it is heard. However, even when listening to the tracks, I can't tell where the actual lyrics are being sung. This is more difficult in "The Two Towers", because it has the poems "The Ents" and "The Missing", but doesn't say in which track they are.
 * I'm not sure what you're asking. If you mean, put the words into the article, then no, as that would be a copyvio. If you mean mention that they are in the linar notes, that's simply not really relevant to the music. If you mean mention that they ARE in Elvish, then yes that info is good to have (if it's not already there. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 01:19, 3 January 2009 (UTC).
 * Eh, no, sorry. What I meant to say was that I get confused as to where the lyrics go. For instance, in the first CD, for the track "The Prophecy", the booklet includes a poem that is supposed to be the lyrics, but when I hear the voices, I can't really tell if they are actually singing those lyrics.--Surten (talk) 00:42, 4 January 2009 (UTC)Surten

The lyrics in the CD booklets are 'Source Text'. That is, they are the source pieces from which the actual sung lyrics were drawn. Sometimes, the sung lyrics follow the source text well. Sometimes not at all. Some sections of music draw from multiple Source Texts. Sometimes, the words of the source text are chopped up and scrambled or syllables are dropped. Therefore, one can not sing along by reading the liner notes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AMagpie (talk • contribs) 04:58, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

What's the deal with the covers?
I've seen on the internet that the "Fellowship" Soundtrack's cover features the four hobbits presummably from the Khazad Dum sequence, but I've seen in stores the cover with Frodo holding Sting, and close ups of Gandalf holding the ring, Saruman looking down with his staff and Arwen looking forward (I think riding). What's the story with this?--Surten (talk) 01:03, 4 January 2009 (UTC)Surten

Info on the covers for this edition can be found at this webpage: http://www.amagpiesnest.com/cd_editions/FOTRost.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by AMagpie (talk • contribs) 04:54, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Suggesting title change
I'm sorry, but Music of The Lord of the Rings film trilogy is too long of a title to be typed in the search. I suggest renaming it The Lord of the Rings music (Howard Shore), because it's differentiated by other similar articles with rather inferior or obscure music for the trilogy (in novel, it should be) and it would be a better counterpart to Star Wars music. I would be inclined to move the article myself and keep the name for this one as a redirect page, but I feel unworthy. Besides, I may be unaware of the hectic consequences such a move would represent.--Surten (talk) 20:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)Surten
 * Why the (Howard Shore) bit in brackets? Why not The Lord of the Rings music. Darth Newdar (talk) 10:02, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it's fine as it is, personally. And yeah, there's no reason to disambiguate Shore's name. A general Lord of the Rings music page would also be fine (akin to Superman music, but not as THIS page, which is way too long to add all the other stuff. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 12:18, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed with the above, this move seems unnecessary. —Locke Cole • t • c 09:23, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the title of this article: a new book on this subject is being released in early October entitled: "The Music of The Lord of the Rings Films: A Comprehensive Account of Howard Shore's Scores". If Wikipedia were going to provide an article page for this book, the similarity of its title to the name of this page might need some sorting out. AMagpie (talk) 14:50, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Since I had no answers, I took it as "yes"
I just moved the article's mile long title "Music of the Lord of the Rings film trilogy" to a rather shorter and easier to type title. If there's any backlash, I'll feel flattered, since I've noticed from the lack of maintenance that nobody really gives a damn about this article. To those who do, let's help give it the respect it deserves. Thanks. --Surten (talk) 05:32, 17 April 2009 (UTC)Surten
 * You had two dissenting views above, I've undone your page move as I disagree with it as well. —Locke Cole • t • c 09:24, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well actually, it was only one by Melodia. Yours came after the move. --Surten (talk) 03:42, 21 April 2009 (UTC)Surten
 * Apparently I'm invisible again... ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 11:15, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, sometimes I also feel invisible. Nobody's answered my questions about the song lyrics or the CD covers! I guess you need to do drastic things to get everyone's attention. I'm glad there's people that really care for this article, but they're not really doing anything else for it than just defending it from mergings and moving it somewhere else. Either way, I'm still having trouble with the lyrics in quenya, elvish and other languages contained in the booklets. It says where the songs are found, but when I listen to the tracks, the vocals don't seem to fit. Will someone help me out, or do I need to move the page again to get everyone's attention? --Surten (talk) 20:35, 20 April 2009 (UTC)Surten
 * I'm not sure Wikipedia is set up to determine what lyrics are sung in the soundtrack. I have a website that has the most comprehensive listing of lyrics as sung. I bet you can find it if you google. Magpie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AMagpie (talk • contribs) 05:02, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

I suggest something more doable
I suggest to create a disambiguation page, then, since if you type The Lord of the Rings music it takes you to a section of Works inspired by J. R. R. Tolkien or something like that. I'm just trying to simplify the search for this article. I'm sorry if you're so offended by that. --Surten (talk) 03:41, 21 April 2009 (UTC)Surten

Principal leitmotif
After looking at this article after a long time besides finding a much smaller piece, I found that the section on principal leitmotifs was completely gone. I also noticed in the talk pages that this article should be expanded, and saying that if Star Wars can have such a long sountrack page, then Lord of the Rings can as well. I think that a longer page should usually have more content in it, especially important content like that. Artaxus 20:51 2 August 2010 UTC —Preceding undated comment added 02:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC).
 * Someone deleted it, claiming copyright concerns. Also claiming to be the author of said text. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 04:12, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * How can the text be copyrighted if his book is not even published? This edit and the following by the IP claiming to be Doug Adams look rather fishy to me. Instead of deleting the whole thing from scratch, the IP is first trying to "update" the section (that has been in existence for two years) with promotional hints at Adam's blog and then suddenly claims copyright. The only possibility would have been that this rearrangement was copied from Adam's blog back in 2008 — which I doubt somehow. Unless said IP can come up with a source, I'd rather be inclined to restore the section. At least the revision of 12 Sep. 2008 should be restored. De728631 (talk) 16:55, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Well there was also the complete recordings, as well as the PDFs on the website supplementing those. The text may have come from there, but I haven't checked. I'd like to know for sure, as well. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 18:09, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * As of this revision, the one before he started editing, the two direct Adams sources given are identical, i.e. the FAQ on his website. They had nothing to do with the Leitmotifs though. And while the scores for Two Towers and RotK are no longer available on the links provided, I could not even find a quote from the "Fellowship" score in the article's revision. De728631 (talk) 18:44, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The same goes for the Return of the King score . Nothing to see there. De728631 (talk) 19:05, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It turned out that this edit was taken from the liner notes by Doug Adams to the Complete Recordings, hence the OTRS complaint mentioned above now. The older text can be restored though but future edits should avoid getting too close to published text. De728631 (talk) 18:14, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Ideas for restructuring
Doug Adams suggested that someone should have a go at updating this page. I've read the discussions and I think a useful first step would be to decide on a page structure. I've added my take below. Feel free to edit and/or make suggestions. Ruckus82 (talk) 12:25, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) Introduction
 * 2) Project History
 * 3) Shore's Approach (can't think of a better title at the moment)
 * 4) Themes
 * 5) The One Ring (History, Seduction, and Evil themes)
 * 6) The Shire and the Hobbits
 * 7) The Fellowship
 * 8) Theme Development
 * 9) Instrumentation
 * 10) CD Releases
 * 11) FotR
 * 12) TTT
 * 13) RoTK
 * 14) Any notable differences in contents, availability, etc.
 * 15) Reception
 * 16) Soundtrack Sales
 * 17) Reviews
 * 18) Awards
 * 19) Complete Recordings Releases
 * 20) Project History
 * 21) FotR
 * 22) TTT
 * 23) RotK
 * 24) Reception
 * 25) The Lord of the Rings Symphony
 * 26) The Lord of the Rings Live Projection Concerts
 * 27) The Music of The Lord of the Rings Films Book by Doug Adams
 * 28) Project History
 * 29) Book Structure
 * 30) Rarities CD
 * 31) References
 * 32) Annotated score pdfs, CR booklets, articles, EE DVD interviews etc.
 * 33) Links
 * 34) People
 * 35) howardshore.com, musicoflotr.com, etc.
 * 36) Publicity
 * 37) lordoftherings-soundtrack.com, etc.
 * 38) Reviews
 * 39) FSM (incl. podcasts), soundtrack.net, etc.
 * 40) Fan sites
 * 41) amagpiesnest.com etc.


 * First of all I think if M. Adams would like to have this page restructured, he should make an account and suggest the matter himself on Wikipedia. Moreover we're currently dealing with some controversial edits by an IP who claimed to be Adams (see the section above). Unless that is settled, I am against restructuring the page because that would only add additional confusion to the edit history. And he might receive a section on his book when it has received coverage by multiple independent sources. We're not a soapbox for his project. De728631 (talk) 17:21, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, Doug Adams didn't ask for a restructuring, or for any treatment of his own work. He just drew attention in a blog post to the fact that some of the information was out of date. I included a link to that post to reference some of the debate going on on that site. Please also understand that it's not my intention to overhaul the page but to better organise and add to the content that many people have obviously worked hard on. The purpose of outlining a page structure above was to focus feedback on one aspect and see where we are. I will be limiting my contributions to the talk page only. Thanks for your comment. Ruckus82 (talk) 11:44, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I think your draft structure doesn't seem to differ very much in content from what we've got now but I agree that the article needs to be fleshed out with prose in terms of themes, reviews and reception. And you are of course welcome to participate in that work. Fan sites though are to be avoided in the references section per WP:RS. De728631 (talk) 15:44, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Composers
On this page, Billy Boyd is listed as the performer of the song "The Edge of Night", but on its page here on wikipedia, he's also listed as the composer. I don't know which is correct, but right now, the pages contradict each other.

Also, another song, "A Elbereth Gilthoniel", also known as "Passing of the Elves", is listed on its page as being composed by David Long of Plan 9, but this page doesn't mention this. Again, I wouldn't know which is true, but the pages contradict each other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dafydd018 (talk • contribs) 15:45, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Reference for Instrumentation?
Where does this information come from? Is this truly the original instrumentation or for an arrangement (or the "Symphony")? There wouldn't be any "optional" instruments (see 3rd Flute) in the film score, they are either there (recorded) or not. -- megA (talk) 19:52, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I imagine it either comes from the supplementary notes to the complete edition OSTs and/or the Music of the Lord of the Rings book. As for 'optional' it's possible that it's for the symphony rather than the score, or someone used the wrong word. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 20:08, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Title change and inclusion of the Hobbit scores
I suggest that once the score for The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey is released, that the information for that score is also included on this page, since Howard Shore is reportedly using themes from his Lord of the Rings scores in The Hobbit scores. Along with that, the page's title would need to be changed to something along the lines of The Music of Middle Earth, because the page will most likely be covering the Hobbit scores as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adervae (talk • contribs) 03:48, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

LotR soundtrack is very similar to "The Fury" (John Williams 1978)
I just watched "The Fury" (Brian De Palma 1978) and from the beginning I was wondering if I was mistaken. The music is almost the same as The Lord of The Rings!!!

Genre
At the time of writing the Genre field in the articles for each of the original soundtracks is filled out with: Soundtrack. Is not Classical or Contemporary classical more correct? Torr3 (talk) 21:46, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

Formatting in the instrumentation section
While I agree with almost all of the changes in the instrumentation section, the guidelines at WikiProject Classical music/Guidelines state that "Tables, columns, and long multi-level bulleted lists should be avoided, except in the most extreme cases." In this article, there's not only an orchestra and a choir but a very large ensemble with multiple contingents such as a celtic and eastern band. What's the best possible way we can format the section with regards to the guidelines here? Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:30, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

"One of"
Ok, a single London radio poll and an a review are not good enough to say things like "greatest film score" without some more qualifiers. One of is not arguable and should be used IMO. 204.28.243.236 (talk) 07:11, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

soundtrack??
The musical sound track was recorded in London but does anyone know what studios were used?

And although few people know it although the spoken words of the actors are recorded as they speak them in fact they are over recorded in a special sound room at the studios to get a more perfect sound quality

As most of the actors were British does any one know if they all flew back to London and over recorded all the sound there again? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.110.24.104 (talk) 20:46, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Title (again)
I'm glad to see that the undiscussed move of title from "Music of The Lord of the Rings film series" to "Music of The Lord of the Rings" has been reverted. It is very far from being the case that Howard Shore's fine score is equivalent to the Music of Middle-earth, something that has been contributed to by composers from Tolkien (with his hummed Gregorian chant) onwards. There may well be a place for a template on LOTR or Middle-earth music in general, but in that case its scope will be much wider than Shore. It'll include Led Zeppelin, for a start! Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:36, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Citations that are not online are not "empty"
-- it is not the case that the only valid citations are those that contain URLs.

Citations can be, for example:


 * to textbooks new or old (with or without ISBNs, for that matter, there were books before such things existed)
 * to manuscripts existing in only one copy, held in university or national archives
 * to anything, in fact, that per WP:V can in principle be verified. That procedure may indeed be to travel to a library and request a document. There is and never has been any requirement for citations to be to things on the Web.

The current issue is a citation in this article which is to the printed liner notes of a CD, written by a musicologist. This is perfectly valid. The citation is not "empty" because it does not have a URL.

Could you please self-revert and admit your mistake. Thank you. Meanwhile I've commented out the item so that at least we can locate it readily for the purposes of discussion; please leave the comment in place until the discussion concludes. Chiswick Chap (talk) 15:39, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Note 46 is incorrect
The program notes of the Sydney Symphony Return of the King state that whoever's name is greyed out was a regular member of the orchestra but wasn't present for that concert. Therefore that performance actually uses a smaller orchestra than what Shore requires: 14 first violins, 12 seconds, 10 violas, 8 cellos, 6 basses, 2 flutes(!), 3 oboes, 3 clarinets, 3 bassoons, 6 horns, 4 trumpets, 3 trombones, tuba, timpani and 5 percussion, one harp, one keyboard, accordion and guitar. I haven't looked for photos or videos of the concert myself, so I could be wrong. 74.101.251.49 (talk) 01:02, 7 January 2022 (UTC)