Talk:Music of Turkey/Archive 1

Division of Turkish music into 2 genres or 3 genres?
Does anyone else have a problem with the current division of Turkish music in the Ottoman era into 2 genres? I think that mehter/military music has always been entirely distinct from palace art music (it shares no instruments with Ottoman art music from any period), and was always conceptualized as such. I think the division should be at least 3-fold: folk, art, and military. Defense for the 3- or more division can be found in the Garland Encyclopedia/ Middle East volume. eliotbates (talk) 23:20, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Turkish_musical_instruments template is ready
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Turkish_musical_instruments Please use this template in related pages --Macukali 13:50, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Revert Wars
I am trying to put a stop to the revert wars. I understand you feel passionately about your own issues but please think before you edit -


 * 1. Are you putting anything in to make it better?
 * 2. Are you just putting in things to promote your favourite singer or nationalism?

These are my edits so far:

I have tidied up the first two paragraphs. Though I don't agree that you need to stick in every inconceivable influence in Turkish music, because it was not meant to be an exhaustive list but just examples - and that the old version read better - I have decided not to change it simply because I think the majority of Turks here do not understand that they are sacrificing a well written article simply to stick in some other piece of information. For example, the fact that Balkan music is an element is made clear in the rest of the article and doesn't need to mentioned really, and that it should be obvious that the Seljuk's colonised Anatolia. It is sad that they don't realise this - but I have kept sacrificed a better paragraph merely to keep the peace so I hope they will stop attacking the article.

I also changed the Zeybek links. For some reason MelEtis believes that this should be on a separate page than the Greek dance - I think because Greek nationalistic roots and sympathies - though I yet have to research that.

I tidied up the Mustafa Sandal sentence about his winning a gold disc. I haven't any authority that says this - nor have I found any, but I am assuming good faith on the part of the Sandal fans that have added it.

Someone keeps adding Turkish soundtrack music as though it is a separate genre. As far as I know it isn't. I suggest they actually contribute to some articles and not just put in names to articles they will never write themselves. That is just lazy.

There was a link to a Turkish Government page but as it doesn'T directly refer to that paragraph you cannot cite it - so I put th elink in FURTHER READING. I have tried to keep away from Turkish nationalism POV and to be honest most of the Ministry of Culture pages in English are either wrong or badly written or nationalistic, which makes me wonder how much Turks know about their own music. For example on this page the Ministry of Culture labels the Ankara folk oyun havasi misket as a belly dance, mixing up the genres. A oyun havası is not necessarily a belly dance. Deff6 19:56, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I edited the changes made about the Club Scene because what is being talked about here is not just clubs in Turkey. Yes, there are clubs in Ankara and Izmir and Antalya, but this is not what we mean in English when we say an underground music scene. We mean the 'meaking and producing of alternative music. Arguably, the Istanbul music scene is the center of that creativity. I will try and make that more clear. Deff6 20:08, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism by MelEtis and Others
This user has reverted all edits to the Zeybek dance page to the Greek version - even though he opened the article himself. After arguing and reverting the Greek Zeybek page - the man now comes and changes all the Zeybek links of the Music of Turkey page to the Greek Zeybek. Does this make sense?

The two references taken out are there for a reason - THEY HAVE BEEN CITED. The immigrants lowest of the low article about mistreatment of Turkish immigrants in Germany influenced the Turkish hip hop genre, for example. It is all footnoted if one takes the time to read and not just edit. 82.145.231.194 13:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Turkish Classical Music vs. Saray Music?
When we refer to classical music in Turkey it refers to the modal music which is strongly related to Byzantine music. It has some continuity in the sense that both the so-called Turkish classical music and Byzantine music are music of "the Royal palace" apart from the well-known modal style. I'm thinking of adding some more material to reflect contemporary Turkish music during the times of the modern republic. These will include contemporary composers such as Ilhan Mimaroglu, Ilhan Usmanbas, Ertugrul Oğuz Fırat, etc. This will inevitably result in Classical music to be reclassified as "Saray music" or "Makamsal Music". I wonder what the other authors think of this? I'm aware of the sensitivity of "Saray music" connoiseurs. Any ideas of how to reshape the article? Let's discuss and find.--hamilikart 13:11, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

The 20th and 21st century Turkish music genre which continues much of the repertoire and musical characteristics (makam, usul, forms, etc.) of Ottoman court music is today generally called Classical Turkish Music (Klâsik Türk Müziği). Other accepted terms I've seen in publications: Art Music (Sanat Musikisi), Ottoman Court Music (Osmanlı Musikisi), Learned Music (İlmî Musiki), etc. Makamsal (Makam modal music) is a bit too vague; the term is applied too broadly applied without clear distinction, e.g., to Balkan folk genres influenced by Ottoman/Turkish music. Neyzenhasan 15:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC).

Its related more to Arab, Persian and Eastern musical traditions. The Turks never adopted a Byzantine court or Byzantine influenced court. Let's stop trying to invent stories and keep to the realities.


 * With all due respect (and as an independent observer), classical Turkish music is closely related to Byzantine music. And also closely related to Arab and—to a lesser extent—Persian music. A Greek psaltis cantor told me that the improvisations he sings in the Greek Orthodox church are no different from Turkish music. How could it be otherwise, with İstanbul sharing the Ottoman court, the Greek Patriarchate, and many Greek musicians at the court? And the centuries-long intermingling of Turks and Greeks? Consider the lyrical qualities that set Turkish classical music apart from Arab and Persian music, qualities that might well have come from this Greek association. Greeks and Turks learned from each other and from many other influences. Neyzenhasan 15:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC).

Mevlevi music
I'm wondering if Mevlevi music should be in the classical rather than the folk section. -- Solri

No Mevlevi music is folk music because it is derived from a religious sect. However, certain famous sufi's like Dede Efendi were classical music composers. 82.145.231.8 13:04, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Leaving aside ideological criteria, Mevlevi music belongs with classical Turkish music, not Turkish folk music. From a musical point of view, compositions for the Mevlevi ceremony (ayinler) are nearly identical to classical Turkish music (Ottoman court music). Makams are the same, usuls are nearly the same, forms are similar. Many composers besides Dede Efendi, including Sultan Selim III, composed ayins. Many Mevlevi musicians also played in the court. The prominence of the ney in court music most likely came from Mevlevi practice. Mevlevi music strongly influenced court music. Folk music never uses makams, usuls, forms, Ottoman poetry, etc. There are no musical grounds for associating Mevlevi music with folk music. Neyzenhasan 16:04, 20 September 2007 (UTC).

I agree with Neyzenhasan. Mevlevi music was very much tied to the courts and court outposts (Konya, Bursa) through history, and had much less of a meaningful connection with local folk music practices. I disagree that "Folk music never uses makams, usuls, forms, Ottoman poetry, etc." Some folk musics in Anatolia (in particular, certain genres in Izmir, Elazig, Erzincan, and Gaziantepe) very much used named makams (with extensive modulations) and usuls, at least, and were substantially influenced over a long period of time by Ottoman forms. But that doesn't change the question of this section, how to categorize Mevlevi music. eliotbates (talk) 23:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Fasil
Someone made this comment within the article text, which seems to belong more to the talk page than to the article itself:

"Fasil refers to a performance form, a suite of pieces in the same Makam and is not specific to Rom music"

I don't know if this is the case. Can the text be reworded to integrate this info?--Chinawhitecotton 05:13, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Removed
I have removed the paragraph below from Kurdish music because it is incorrect. For correct information on Ottoman classical music and makams please see sources. Kurdi is the name of the composer - not of a race in this instance.

The music is modal, with its maqam (or mode in Arabic music) is called Kurdi and is known throughout the Arab world.

I removed this list because it doesn't appear that these are anything more than Turkish translations of English terms and don't particularly line up with sensible articles. The few that do correspond to an article-worthy subject are already linked to elsewhere in the article. Tuf-Kat 01:30, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * Classical Turkish music (Klasik Turk Muzigi)
 * Turkish art music (Turk Sanat Muzigi)
 * Popular Turkish art music (Hafif Turk Sanat Muzigi)
 * Religious Turkish music (Dini Turk muzigi)
 * Turkish art music interpretations (Yorum Turk Sanat Muzigi)
 * Arabesque music (Turk Arabesk Muzik)
 * Pop-Arabesque music (Turk Pop-Arabesk Muzik)
 * Tavern music (Fantazi-Taverna Muzigi)
 * Oriental music (Oryantal ve Oyun Havalari)
 * Traditional Turkish folk music (Geleneksel Turk Halk Muzigi)
 * Composed Turkish folk music (Beste Turk Halk Muzigi)
 * Turkish folk music interpretations (Yorum Turk Halk Muzigi)
 * Turkish ethnic music (Turk Etnik Muzikleri)
 * Ozgun Turkish music (Özgün Müzik)
 * Protest Turkish music (Protest Ozgun Turk Muzigi)
 * Turkish soundtracks (Turk Film Muzikleri)
 * Turkish pop music (Turk Pop Muzigi)
 * Turkish pop-rock music (Turk Pop-Rock Muzigi)
 * Anatolian rock (Anadolu Rock Muzigi)
 * Turkish rock music (Turk Rock Muzigi)
 * Turkish alternative music (Turk Alternatif Muzikleri)
 * Turkish hip hop (Turkce Rap Muzik)
 * Turkish jazz-blues (Turkce Jazz-Blues)
 * Vocal music (Siirsel Vokal Muzik)
 * Classical music in Turkey (Turkiye'de Klasik Bati Muzigi)
 * Tango Turk (Tango Turk)
 * Turkish kanto (Turkce Kantolar)
 * Turkish marches (Turk Marslari)
 * Children's music (Cocuk Sarkilari)
 * Deformed Turkish music (Deforme Turk Muzigi)

Title query
Can we lower-case this title? Turkish music genres and artists, for example? -- Zoe


 * Better yet, is there any reason not to call it simply Turkish music? I can think of none, so I'm going to move the page there. If anybody disagrees, it's a pretty simple job to move it elsewhere. --Camembert

I'm curious - why is "Music of Turkey" a better title than "Turkish music" (where this has been moved from)? It doesn't seem so natural or so linkable to me. --Camembert

Probably because this should also contains information about Armenian and Kurdish musics, while Turkish music could focus on the music performed by ethnic Turks in Central Asia and in immigrant communities in Europe. Danny

I suppose that's fair enough. --Camembert

Going by that logic then you can't call music from America American music, music from Greece, Greek music, music from Armenia Armenian music - because all these places will have had the same melting pot of influences.


 * All countries have a "music of X" article, and some ethnic groups have an "Xish music" article (or "Xish folk music" or "ethnic Xish music") as needed. There should be an article on the music of Turkish people and an article on the music of Turkey. Tuf-Kat 22:32, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

The Turkish music genres and artists (the original title) seems more appropriate. It just smacks of not labelling anything Turkish (when it correctly is) because of racial sensitivities.

Vandalism by an anonymous person
An anonymous person with the IP 82.145.231.9 vandals this article all the time! He/She wants to hide the success of Turkish pop. This person has already cursed in some articles. We must observe this person, that he/she cannot always vandal this article... Mustionline 18:04, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

GA Review
This article has been put forth for Good Article review. Baristarim 20:38, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

GA on Hold
I will put this on hold, since its taken awhile for someone to review, once these layout issues are addressed i will read the text. Goodluck M3tal H3ad 01:14, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * References go after a full-stop
 * External links in the infobox, remove them
 * Way too many one sentence paragraphs, merge, remove or expand them.
 * Sezen Aksu and the Tarkan image need fair use
 * Trim down the external links and 'see also' if you can
 * Web references arent formatted properly, please check
 * music of Turkey should be the first thing mentioned in the article, not in the second sentence
 * The roots of traditional music in Turkey spans across the centuries to a time, remove 'the'
 * even before pre-Turkic, remove 'even'
 * No action taken, failed Please refer to Peer-review before re-nomination. M3tal H3ad 09:38, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

GA for Turkish Music
Apologies if this is not the right place for it, but about your check list: Plus, would it be correct to add the Turkish musical instruments template on the page? Thanks in advance for your help. 82.145.231.90 20:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * References go after a full-stop done
 * External links in the infobox, remove them done
 * Way too many one sentence paragraphs, merge, remove or expand them. done
 * Sezen Aksu and the Tarkan image need fair use done
 * Trim down the external links and 'see also' if you can looking into
 * Web references arent formatted properly Do you mean the ALL sites in the external links and footnotes, too? The ones in the reference section are cited properly as far as I can see
 * music of Turkey should be the first thing mentioned in the article, not in the second sentence done
 * The roots of traditional music in Turkey spans across the centuries to a time, remove 'the' done
 * even before pre-Turkic, remove 'even' done


 * Well i did the review in December, but there are a few things missing. Firstly all audio samples are copyrighted, thus need a fair use rationale like one done Image:Disciple from God Hates Us All.ogg. References still need formatting, web references currently only have a title, they need a publisher (website name), author and date, and date retrieved (use today). It's hard to explain but you could look at how the references are done in Reign in Blood to get a general idea. Also if you're going to make decent contributions you should register an account as most IPs are vandals and your edits may get reverted. M3tal H3ad 07:33, 3 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Web references arent formatted properly


 * Merged the notes and the references sections and correctly cited all sources.
 * Trim down the external links and 'see also' if you can
 * Removed all the fan sites, repeated sited, etc.

I am currently researching all the audio samples per your request. 82.145.231.90 13:07, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Musical instruments

 * I seriously doubt that Cinuçen Tanrıkorur would have omitted kemençe from a list of classical Turkish music instruments (he didn't), nor did he include darbuka as a classical instrument (it's a nightclub instrument). The Tanrıkorur reference cited discusses Ottoman music (music of the Ottoman period covering some five centuries), not the current classical Turkish music derived from Ottoman music.Neyzenhasan (talk) 19:30, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

His article lists musical instruments of the Ottoman period classified by genre (i.e., clearly distinguishing divisions), placing darbuka under the "dance" rubric, not classical. The article under discussion is classical music not dance music.Neyzenhasan (talk) 19:30, 17 November 2007 (UTC) We're confusing two completely different genres here, "Turkish Classical Music," i.e., Western classical music played in Turkey (Türk Klâsik Müziği), and "Classical Turkish Music," i.e., Ottoman court music played today in Turkey (Klâsik Türk Mûsîkîsi). This is now standard terminology in discussing Turkish music today.Neyzenhasan (talk) 19:30, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Darbuka: Cinuçen Tanrıkorur lists darbuka as an instrument in Ottoman music as a whole as he didn't see a division between folk and palace music. Read the article cited.
 * Arguing semantics is not necessary. Within the scope of Turkish classical music comes neo-classical music (the music of more modern times) and no need for a confusing swap around of terms, because classical Turkish and Turkish classical can mean the same thing - irrelevant of whether the term was first coined to separate Western modes of classicism in music. 62.12.71.145 10:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Janissary March - Ceddin Deden by ismail hakki bey.OGG
Image:Janissary March - Ceddin Deden by ismail hakki bey.OGG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:Aegean folk music agir zeybek.ogg
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Fair use rationale for Image:Nida Tufekci - Anakara folk dance - The Misket.ogg
Image:Nida Tufekci - Anakara folk dance - The Misket.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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Fair use rationale for Image:Turkish art music telgrafin telleri.ogg
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Fair use rationale for Image:Canim memleket - black sea region folk.ogg
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Fair use rationale for Image:Canim memleket - black sea region folk.ogg
Image:Canim memleket - black sea region folk.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Fair use rationale for Image:Canim memleket - black sea region folk.ogg
Image:Canim memleket - black sea region folk.ogg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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ÜSKÜDAR'A GİDER'İKEN
I think that we should mention this song in the article because it is a very old and clearly famous Turku (ballad) and the roots of it goes back to time of the Ottoman Empire. It is also famous in other countries and has even been sung by Eartha Kitt. It would also be great if we could make an audio sample! can anybody please make one as i am not sure how to upload music onto wikipedia or what the copyrights would be Justinz84 (talk) 20:01, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I have just found this site http://www.archive.org/details/KatibimuskudaraGiderIken-SafiyeAyla which states its in the public domain could this be used? Justinz84 (talk) 20:12, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * But can we trust that statement? Safiye Ayla died in 1984. This was copied from a gramophone record. The performance can only be in the public domain if the copyright holder expressly donated it to the public domain, of which I see no evidence. Unless I'm mistaken, it is the last song (no. 23) on the posthumously issued 2004 double CD with the name "Safiye Ayla" (the song entitled Katibim Türküsü), and you can only download it if you agree to pay Amazon $0.99 to buy the MP3 of that song. The CD has "Copyright (c) 2004 Mü-Yap". I don't know if this is the same performance, though; I did not buy it. --Lambiam 01:29, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Güher and Süher Pekinel.jpg
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Greek music NOT A FORM of Turkish music
Greek music ism NOT a form of turkish music. Original greek music is this: "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4BSYCUX6ss&feature=related" which was evolutionized to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4BSYCUX6ss&feature=related

So please do not evaluate greek music according to all those "turkish rooted" or "turkish favour" people in greece who try to "sell" those types of music similar to yours as greek.

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.171.240.100 (talk) 08:53, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Musical instruments
1.1 musical instruments

kanun link is wrong... I would correct it but I dont know how. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.100.118.176 (talk) 21:58, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051220163724/http://www.musicaltimes.co.uk/archive/0203/arac.html to http://www.musicaltimes.co.uk/archive/0203/arac.html
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External links modified (February 2018)
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070408125913/http://www.alevibektasi.org/xsufi_music.htm to http://www.alevibektasi.org/xsufi_music.htm
 * Added archive http://webarchive.loc.gov/all/20020914041359/http://www.discoverturkey.com/english/kultursanat/ozan.html to http://www.discoverturkey.com/english/kultursanat/ozan.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20050124085451/http://www.mevlana.net/sema.htm to http://www.mevlana.net/sema.htm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071112085636/http://www.aksam.com.tr/arsiv/aksam/2005/05/21/cumartesi/cumartesi1.html to http://www.aksam.com.tr/arsiv/aksam/2005/05/21/cumartesi/cumartesi1.html
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Procedia source
I see Procedia is used as a source in one passage. This possible predatory journal has been shut down due to poor academic practices, so it's worth double checking the content of that paper. Nemo 22:44, 16 July 2019 (UTC)