Talk:Muslim minority (Greece)

Why are these people referred to as the Greek Muslim minority? I thought that they were Turkish, not Greek. They do speak Turkish don't they? GrandfatherJoe 15:08, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

As a person born in Western Thrace where the so called "Greek Muslim Minority" is located, I would like to add a comment that we do not consider ourselves Greek. We are Turkish. We speak Turkish and we have Turkish traditions (and these are not just Muslim traditions). I think this Megali Idea thing is outdated and about time that the Greeks grew out of it..
 * It is simply not the case that all Greek Muslims identify ethnically as Turks. There are also the Pomaks and Muslim Roma. Therefore, Greek Muslims is the only neutral collective term that objectively describes what they all share in common: Greek citizenship and Islamic faith.--Theathenae 12:01, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Theathenae, that is perhaps why there should not be an article on "Greek Muslim minority" but on "Turkish minority in Greece", "Pomak minority in Greece", "Roma minority in Greece" etc. The insistence on referring to a diverse group of people as the "Greek muslim minority" is a deliberate attempt to disguise just how most of these people see themselves. As people talk freely about the "Greek minority in Turkey" (would you support "Christian minority in Turkey"?), we should do the same here. It is ironic that the Greece retains the Ottoman practice of referring to people according to their religion (millet) rather than nationality. --Damac 12:28, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No, the practice is a direct consequence of Greece's legal obligations under the Treaty of Lausanne, which explicitly recognises two religious minorities, namely the Muslim minority in Greek Thrace and the Greek Orthodox minority in Istanbul and surrounding areas. Just as Greece does not recognise a Turkish minority, so Turkey does not legally recognise a Greek minority but rather a Greek Orthodox one. The name is a purely legal term and says nothing about the actual ethnic origins of the people it describes. That said, I would question the usefulness of separate articles for the three Muslim groups, considering their common legal status and cultural and religious practices. In fact, many Pomaks in particular have opposed Greek efforts to distinguish them from their Turkish-speaking Muslim brethren, even if they themselves do not identify as ethnic Turks per se.--Theathenae 12:33, 29 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm well aware that the terminology used comes from the Treaty of Lausanne. That said, is something written in the tense times of 1923 binding on how people view themselves 80 years later? Also, please tell me where the term "Greek Orthodox minority" surfaces in the Treaty of Lausanne. You obviously haven't read the text if you believe that it is to be found. The Turkish government is legally bound to protect "non-Moslem minorities" only and there is no reference to Greek or Greek Orthodox in the text. You'll have to agree that "Non-Moslem minority" is ridiculous - and by extension, so too is "Greek Muslim minority".
 * If what you say about the Pomaks is true, then put that in an article on the Pomaks. However, I know someone who wrote an M.Ed. on the topic of Turkish language instruction in Thrace and she found that Pomaks do not always agree with the de jure classification of "Muslim minority" and the creeping de facto classification as Turkish and are not enthusiastic about being made learn Turkish. --Damac 13:28, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
 * No international treaty can ever be binding on how people view themselves, but treaties are binding on the states that sign and ratify them, which in practical terms means that Greece is obliged under her treaty obligations to treat her Thracian Muslim citizens as a unit. That said, I agree that it is ridiculous to make Pomak children learn Turkish. Personally I would like to see separate schools with Pomak and Greek as the languages of instruction, despite the Turkish outcry that will undoubtedly ensue. It is my understanding, however, that the Pomaks themselves are divided on the matter.--Theathenae 13:40, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I take it therefore that you accept that you have not read the Treaty of Lausanne and that Turkey recognises only a "non-Moslem minority" and that the substance of your previous comment was baseless. Of course a Treaty cannot be binding on how people view themselves, but why then did the Greek courts take an Tracian teachers' association to court for calling themselves something like the "Turkish Teachers' Associaton". The Greek state did so under the Treaty and thus denies Greek citizens the freedom "to establish, manage and control at their own expense, any charitable, religious and social institutions, any schools and other establishments for instruction and education, with the right to use their own language and to exercise their own religion freely therein" (article 40). If the Pomaks are divided - which is not surprising considering that it is normal for any "nation" (like the "Greeks", the "Irish", the "Japanese" for example), then this can be explained in a seperate article on the Greek Pomaks. To prevent this article and debate going the way others have gone, I propose: This reflects the legal definition of the Lausanne Treaty (not binding on us because we are not the Greek state) and the reality on the ground. --Damac 13:56, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
 * "Greek Muslim minority" become a page which explains that this is a term used in the Treaty of Lausanne but which encompasses:
 * Turkish minority in Greece
 * Pomak minority in Greece
 * Roma minority in Thrace, Greece


 * I have added a stub on the Greek Pomaks in the Pomaks article. Regarding your criticism of my knowledge of the Treaty of Lausanne, it is my understanding that Turkey recognises the Greek minority as Rum (Greek Orthodox), not Yunan (Greek). Perhaps I should have explicitly stated that that is how Turkey interprets the Treaty of Lausanne, but that would be nit-picking, n'est-ce pas?--Theathenae 14:06, 29 September 2005 (UTC)


 * That was a sensible addition to the Pomaks article.
 * The text of the Lausanne Treaty is available via the Wikipedia article on it. I suggest that you read it.
 * The Turkish policy regarding its Greek minority is complex and I'm working on an article on that topic. The distinction betweeen Rum and Yunan reflects how the Greeks of Constantinople saw themselves when first encountered by the Ottomans, which was as Rhomaioi or Romans. The few Greeks of Istanbul left still commonly refer to themselves Rhomaioi in order to distinguish themselves from the Greeks of the Greek state. This the Ottomans corrupted into Rüm. On the other hand, Yunani (Ίωνες) (from the Persian Yauna) is a transliteration of the Greek Ionia, became established in the ancient Middle East from the Persians, who in contact with the Ionian tribes in western Asia Minor in the 6th century BC, extended the name to all Hellenes. In modern usage in both the Turkish and Arab world, it has come to mean mainly the Greeks living in the Greek state.
 * I hope you don't think I'm nit-picking - I just want to see professionalism and not sloppy amateurism in Wikipedia. --Damac 15:03, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
 * What I meant was that the letter of the Treaty of Lausanne was less important than its spirit and of course its interpretation by the Turkish state. And thank you for the historical analysis of the Rum/Yunan dichotomy, which I was already aware of but which may prove helpful to other editors who wish to contribute to this discussion.--Theathenae 15:20, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Wanna learn more about the Turks/Muslims of Thrace? Get a load of these: After this appalling record of Greece, I feel so happy that I am in the United Kingdom where human rights are observed, unlike remote parts of Europe (ie Greece) where the concept of human rights has not yet sunk in! REX 14:14, 29 September 2005 (UTC)
 * ANOTHER Helsinki Report
 * A Human Rights Watch Report about the scandalous bevahious of the Greek authorities who fancy themselves as Europeans!
 * EUROPEAN COMMISSION AGAINST RACISM AND INTOLERANCE SECOND REPORT ON GREECE
 * Council of Europe on Human Rights in Greece


 * Yes, Greece has not got a remarkable record when it comes to its minorities. Yet, I feel we should be working on developing a consensus and top class articles. I would also like to add that whatever we think of Greece's record on its minorities, it has done a better job of fulfilling its obligations under the Treaty of Lausanne than the Turks. There were 200,000 Greeks in Constantinople at the time when the Treaty was signed. 1,500 remain. The figures speak for themselves. --Damac 15:03, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Getting to the point of the encyclopedia article, I think we clearly should have one here: The issue of the legal "Greek Muslim minority" according to the Treaty of Lausanne is one we should document. The only real question IMO, is whether we should also have another article, Turkish minority in Greece. That would depend on whether we have anything additional to say in such an article, beyond what would be said in this one and the other already existing articles, like Greco-Turkish relations. --Delirium 17:43, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Ethnic affiliation of the muslim minority
According to the greek constitution and to the Lauzanne Treaty, the minority is a religious one. the majority of the muslims in the region of Western Threace speak turkish. a large number of them,however, speak Bulgarian (Pomaks) or Greek-Romani (Roma). the number of the Pomaks in the area could be as high as 93,000, or as low as 30,000 as the article Pomaks says. about the number of Romas, i have not found any source, but i know they exist. so, saying that the great majority of them are ethnic Turks is misleading, having in mind that the community numbers about 130,000 people of whom large numbers are Pomaks,Romas or even ethnic Greeks. i think that every change regarding this issue, should first been examined here, in the talk page. --Hectorian 05:38, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Requested move
move.

Greek Muslim minority &rarr; Muslim minority (Greece) &mdash; No one calls it the "Greek Muslim minority". It is officially called the "Muslim minority", and the government accepts that it is a multiethnic minority. Calling it a Greek Muslim minority risks confusion with the ethnically Greek (although not necessarily Greek identifying) Muslims - that topic is currently dealt with at Greek-speaking Muslims (although I have a proposed move for that article as well). A Google test reveals that "Muslim minority" is the correct and more common nomenclature: and. --Tēlex 19:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with  ~ ''


 * Support --Tēlex 19:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support sensible solution.--Aldux 00:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support --Hectorian 01:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutral -- I'd prefer merging with Islam in Greece, there's really no need to have these two articles separately. (Muslims in Greece would be fine too for the merged article.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:41, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support per Aldux, eminently sensible. - FrancisTyers · 14:35, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Support but isn't "Muslim minority in Greece" a bit nicer construction? Why parentheses when it's easy to spell out a valid syntagm? Duja 08:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments


 * We should keep in mind that a percentage of the muslim minority identifies as Greeks (in origins and nationality). I am not sure if an article called Muslim minority (Greece) would be the appropriate place to include them as well... --Hectorian 00:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

To Future Perfect: I'd oppose a complete merge. 'Muslim minority' refers to a specific legal entity, namely all Muslim inhabitants of Greek citizenship in Thrace. The Greek government maintains that the Treaty of Lausanne does not cover Muslims outside Thrace and non-Greek citizens. That's why I believe that the part about the immigrants should be merged only, as they do not form part of the legal entity known as the Muslim minority (Μουσουλμανική μειονότητα). --Tēlex 10:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with Telex here; the Thracian minority is one thing, Islam in Greece is a bigger one, as it also includes the strong muslim, especially Albanian, migration in the country.--Aldux 10:42, 5 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure, but the overlap is still so big that they could easily be treated in a single article (as is, in fact, currently already done in Islam in Greece. Always keep in mind we're writing for stupid foreigners who are not already well acquainted with these niceties and are likely to expect both kinds of information at the same place. But it's not as if I would strongly care about it either way. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:54, 5 July 2006 (UTC)